What would you use low-PL M&M for?

[SilverLeaf167]

As far as I know, Mutants & Masterminds as a whole is best optimized for a relatively light and non-gritty setting with the players as superhuman individuals at mid-to-high Power Levels, say 8+. The system includes PLs all the way down to 0, but competent non-supers are generally somewhere in between.

With that in mind, when would you run something like a PL 4-6 game in M&M instead of using a system more specialized for whatever you want? If you want generally "human" level characters, even with some weakish superpowers thrown in, I get the impression you could probably find something built for that very premise. For this question, there are no restrictions on the setting or tone of the game, only that you use M&M at PL ≤6 with only minor houserules. Have you done so in the past?

And why? Is there something you feel M&M does better than any other game that'd make it worth it? "Because I like M&M" is also a valid answer, but even then it'd be fun to hear some elaboration.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I've run M&M at PL 6-- it works fine. (You might have some trouble with swingy Toughness rolls, but I had problems with those at PL 10, too, and switched the system to 2d10 years ago). I used it partially because I like it, and partially because... well, the system is good at letting you fit very weird, distinct characters in the same party. If you want to fit an ice-sorcerer, an allomancer, a half-devil, and a master martial artist in the same party, M&M will do that with ease. It's also very good at letting people use their powers/magic in creative ways to solve problems, which is one of my favorite parts of RPGs.

[SilverLeaf167]

So, what kind of game was it? A standard superhero game except weaker? A "paranormal mystery" game? Something else entirely?

[Grod_The_Giant]

So, what kind of game was it? A standard superhero game except weaker? A "paranormal mystery" game? Something else entirely?
High fantasy-- the party included a pair of music-mages (one focused on matter/mind magic, and one on portal-type magic), a dragon-descended knight and his hippocampus mount, and a shape-shifter. It was a standard enough adventure game, but M&M was nice for its focus on big, cinematic fights and lack of attrition-based difficulty.

[tensai_oni]

I've run a PL 6 mecha game - with small mass produced robots meant to operate in urban environments and for whom even tanks are a challenge. Think VOTOMS or Patlabor more than Gundam or Gurren Lagann. Technically the player characters were PL 4 (no powers except what can be refluffed as normal human competence), their units were PL 6 but with a +2 damage and toughness tradeoff.

It worked well, and the low power levels made it practical to use tactical options such as automatic covering fire or assisting each other with aid actions.

[Anonymouswizard]

In all honesty, I can see a great pulp heroes or street level supers game at about PL6. Lower than that you start getting very close to just ordinary people in the system.

I also agree that it would be great for larger than life fantasy. I wouldn't be recreating A Song of Ice and Fire with it, but most modern fantasy novels fit well with the exception. I'd never run Wuxia with it, but that's because I think that the Wuxia systems I own do it better.

You could also do a soft SF game at those power levels, certainly of the Star Trek level. Again, I personally wouldn't use it for that, but you could.

[Scots Dragon]

In all honesty, I can see a great pulp heroes or street level supers game at about PL6. Lower than that you start getting very close to just ordinary people in the system.

PL6 is used for street level heroes in the archetype archives, and it'd work really well for Watchmen-level campaigns. It's also used for more low-level gritty fantasy heroes in Warriors & Warlocks. The only instance lower than that I can think of is PL5, used for espionage heroes and campaigns. Naturally some characters and situations within those genres can go above that level.

[Alcore]

I wish i had the time to use it as i feel it does better at fantasy than D&D. MnM (2nd edition) is so closely related most supplements can be passed around without issue (mind the MnM high DCs for low level characters). With D20 modern's wealth bonus even the equipment can be passed around.


You have PL 2 and need to make a character. What does a standard level 1 fighter have? A twenty point build (array of 14/12/12/10/10/10 = 8pp), an attack bonus (1pp), a feat (1pp), 8 skill ranks (2pp in 2e). Being human adds an PP to skills and another feat. Making fourteen points.

That's 14/30 for PL2 and roughly a cr1 (or 1/2 as npc) creature.


Would you like your fighter to bench press loaded wagons? Carry your horse into battle like a sack of potatoes? Strike three mooks in one roundf without cleave?


It defeats class teirs, hobbles XP driven players and even nerfs (yet also empowering) arcane classes. It fixes most issues that people have with D&D. Adds pleanty of it's own though and is work.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I wish i had the time to use it as i feel it does better at fantasy than D&D. MnM (2nd edition) is so closely related most supplements can be passed around without issue (mind the MnM high DCs for low level characters). With D20 modern's wealth bonus even the equipment can be passed around.

You have PL 2 and need to make a character. What does a standard level 1 fighter have? A twenty point build (array of 14/12/12/10/10/10 = 8pp), an attack bonus (1pp), a feat (1pp), 8 skill ranks (2pp in 2e). Being human adds an PP to skills and another feat. Making fourteen points.

That's 14/30 for PL2 and roughly a cr1 (or 1/2 as npc) creature.

Would you like your fighter to bench press loaded wagons? Carry your horse into battle like a sack of potatoes? Strike three mooks in one roundf without cleave?

It defeats class teirs, hobbles XP driven players and even nerfs (yet also empowering) arcane classes. It fixes most issues that people have with D&D. Adds pleanty of it's own though and is work.
Ahem (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279503-D-amp-D-in-M-amp-M-a-new-approach-to-rebalancing-3-5-P).

The nice thing about M&M is that its balance issues are kind of tangential to D&D's. The fact that you can build Pun-Pun in D&D, or that you can Summon-loop your way to infinite power points in M&M, aren't really a problem with the system-- no reasonable person is going to bring a theoretical-optimization build into a normal game. It doesn't even matter if Thog the Barbarian can't do anything but swing an axe while Wizzie the Wise can wave his hands and bypass large swathes of mundane challenge as long as both their players are okay with that. Some people just want to hit things with an axe. The issue is when the system imposes those sorts of limits when players don't want them. When it says, as D&D does, "a fighter type cannot also be skillful" or "a rogue type cannot be stealthier than a wizard." M&M is good at avoiding that.

[Alcore]

I feel your trying to present an argument to my perceived position but i don't see it or i agree in the first place :smallsigh:

[SilverLeaf167]

I feel your trying to present an argument to my perceived position but i don't see it or i agree in the first place :smallsigh:

Seems to me that you were both in agreement, but whatever.

Thanks for answers, people! I'm definitely feeling curious to try a more low-power M&M game sometime. I find the system itself "elegant" for what it tries to do, with certain relatively simple snags (since the system is pretty transparent and split into individual feats and powers, so are the problems, as opposed to something like D&D's tier disparity that permeates the whole game's design philosophy) and have toyed with the idea of some sort of fantasy game before.

I've seen Grod's fixes before, and will definitely review them in more detail if this whole topic ever turns out to be relevant. Keep the answers coming, they're fun to read.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I feel your trying to present an argument to my perceived position but i don't see it or i agree in the first place :smallsigh:
I was agreeing with you and elaborating?

[noob]

I have an hard time understanding how the Explosive Runes in your m&m dnd works.
Also since you kept the concept of evil in the paladin I guess you could add the limitation: only evil summoned creatures on the protection against evil immunity to summoned creatures part.
I still think about the variant of time stop you once suggested "summon multiple persons which share most of your traits temporarily"(it was the op version of time stop: real dnd stuff is broken)

[Grod_The_Giant]

I have an hard time understanding how the Explosive Runes in your m&m dnd works.
Also since you kept the concept of evil in the paladin I guess you could add the limitation: only evil summoned creatures on the protection against evil immunity to summoned creatures part.
I still think about the variant of time stop you once suggested "summon multiple persons which share most of your traits temporarily"(it was the op version of time stop: real dnd stuff is broken)
The key is the Triggered modifier-- basically M&M's way of building a land mine:


TRIGGERED (FLAT 1 POINT PER RANK)

You can “set” an instant duration effect with this modifier to activate under particular circumstances, such as in response to a particular danger, after a set amount of time, in response to a particular event, and so forth—chosen when you apply the modifier. Once chosen, the trigger cannot be changed.

The circumstances must be detectable by your senses. You can acquire Senses Limited and Linked to Triggered effects, if desired. Setting the effect requires the same action as using it normally.

A Triggered effect lying in wait may be detected with a Perception check (DC 10 + effect rank) and in some cases disarmed with a successful skill or power check (such as Sleight of Hand, Technology, Nullify or another countering effect) with a DC of (10 + effect rank).

A Triggered effect is good for one use per rank in this modifier. After its last activation, it stops working.

You can apply an additional rank of Triggered to have a Variable Trigger, allowing you to change the effect’s trigger each time you set it.
When you take an action to use the power, it doesn't take effect immediately--instead, it activates only after the triggering circumstance comes up. In this case, reading it. The Alternate Resistance was so that it was still a "jump out of the way" thing, rather than being stopped by Parry; Noticeable because, well, it's text; it's a lot easier to see than DC 10+rank.

[noob]

So I would need Senses Limited and Linked to vision of Triggered effects or to be able to see the people reading the explosive runes(or sense they are reading them) for having the explosives runes work?

[Anonymouswizard]

Ahem (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279503-D-amp-D-in-M-amp-M-a-new-approach-to-rebalancing-3-5-P).

I remember that being a lot worse when I last read it, must be misremembering it. It's actually really cool, especially as it makes multiclassing simple (simply pick powers from another class).

This makes me want to make a set of SF guidelines for M&M now, wouldn't be too hard. It would require making a lot of gadgets, advice on alien species, some discussion of psionics, and starship outlines (while the core M&M vehicles rules are fine, there needs to be more to FTL drives than '2 ranks lets you reach other star systems, 2 other galaxies', which thankfully can be solved by just buying 30+ ranks in Flight to go FTL, maybe with Limited [cannot be used inside a strong gravity field]). Plus it lets me have a good think and make a bunch of power themes with premade powers.

[noob]

I remember that being a lot worse when I last read it, must be misremembering it. It's actually really cool, especially as it makes multiclassing simple (simply pick powers from another class).

This makes me want to make a set of SF guidelines for M&M now, wouldn't be too hard. It would require making a lot of gadgets, advice on alien species, some discussion of psionics, and starship outlines (while the core M&M vehicles rules are fine, there needs to be more to FTL drives than '2 ranks lets you reach other star systems, 2 other galaxies', which thankfully can be solved by just buying 30+ ranks in Flight to go FTL, maybe with Limited [cannot be used inside a strong gravity field]). Plus it lets me have a good think and make a bunch of power themes with premade powers.

With 94 ranks in teleport you can teleport from anywhere in the universe to anywhere else in the universe.
With no flaws it takes only 188 points.(but if you add the unreliable flaw or any other flaw it will take a lot less: that rank is if you want your ship to go anywhere at will)
Since it is on a space ship it costs a lot less points for the player.

[Anonymouswizard]

With 94 ranks in teleport you can teleport from anywhere in the universe to anywhere else in the universe.
With no flaws it takes only 188 points.(but if you add the unreliable flaw or any other flaw it will take a lot less: that rank is if you want your ship to go anywhere at will)
Since it is on a space ship it costs a lot less points for the player.

Teleport and Flight both have the same practical movement speed, so which you want to use depends on the exact game. My maths was a bit off though, but about a factor of ten due to forgetting speeds were in km in the table, I think Flight/Teleport 32 or 33 lets you travel a distance of over one light hour per hour. In practice we're wanting a rank of 40. I think roughly 50 ranks would give us 1ly/round, 41 ranks 1ly/hour.

This is how I'd go about designing a M&M spaceship system:
Pick Size as normal.

Does the ship have an FTL drive? If so it has 40+ ranks of Flight or Teleport, with the Limited modifier that flight must be in a vacuum, or that teleportation must begin and end in one. This costs 1 point per rank of FTL drive, with rules for adding limitations or enhancements to FTL drives below, especially to represent specific models.

Then you decide how fast the sublight drives are. If a ship has an FTL drive this is assumed to be an alternate effect for one point, just pick a Flight value less than 29 and that costs less than your FTL drive and be on your way. Otherwise it's just bog standard flight. Again, I'd talk about limitations and enhancements being used to get a specific flavour.

Then all ships need at least one point of Protection to represent a pressurised hull, additional armour and force fields can be bought as either permanent or sustained Protection. If a ship lands in atmosphere it should have at least some additional protection.

Add in weapons, features, and other stuff as normal.

Then, as spaceships are normal in-setting, they can be bought for Equipment Points.

[noob]

Teleport and Flight both have the same practical movement speed, so which you want to use depends on the exact game. My maths was a bit off though, but about a factor of ten due to forgetting speeds were in km in the table, I think Flight/Teleport 32 or 33 lets you travel a distance of over one light hour per hour. In practice we're wanting a rank of 40. I think roughly 50 ranks would give us 1ly/round, 41 ranks 1ly/hour.

This is how I'd go about designing a M&M spaceship system:
Pick Size as normal.

Does the ship have an FTL drive? If so it has 40+ ranks of Flight or Teleport, with the Limited modifier that flight must be in a vacuum, or that teleportation must begin and end in one. This costs 1 point per rank of FTL drive, with rules for adding limitations or enhancements to FTL drives below, especially to represent specific models.

Then you decide how fast the sublight drives are. If a ship has an FTL drive this is assumed to be an alternate effect for one point, just pick a Flight value less than 29 and that costs less than your FTL drive and be on your way. Otherwise it's just bog standard flight. Again, I'd talk about limitations and enhancements being used to get a specific flavour.

Then all ships need at least one point of Protection to represent a pressurised hull, additional armour and force fields can be bought as either permanent or sustained Protection. If a ship lands in atmosphere it should have at least some additional protection.

Add in weapons, features, and other stuff as normal.

Then, as spaceships are normal in-setting, they can be bought for Equipment Points.
Or even better as equipment of a sidekick(one rank of sidekick will give you 75 rank of space ship and if you allow stat dumping on the sidekick you immediately get 300 bonus point of space ship so a total of 375 points of space ship for one rank of sidekick)
In practice I do not want a flying space ship when I can get a space ship that can teleport anywhere in the universe at any time but since you are planning to have travel times it is fair to put less ranks.(also traveling slowly helps getting more space fights which are cool)

[Anonymouswizard]

Or even better as equipment of a sidekick(one rank of sidekick will give you 75 rank of space ship and if you allow stat dumping on the sidekick you immediately get 300 bonus point of space ship so a total of 375 points of space ship for one rank of sidekick)
In practice I do not want a flying space ship when I can get a space ship that can teleport anywhere in the universe at any time but since you are planning to have travel times it is fair to put less ranks.(also traveling slowly helps getting more space fights which are cool)

FWIW I don't allow stat dumping of sidekicks, I work under the assumption that if a PC wants regular access to a certain vehicle or piece of equipment it belongs to the character, not a minion or sidekick.

In fact, Minion and Sidekick are so powerful that I assume that they'll have a tendency to not be with the party (minions) or distracted (sidekicks) at least half the time. Their bonus is an extra body and having them occasionally get the team out of scrapes, not as a cost saving measure. The only exception I'll make is with bodyguard Sidekicks, as you're essentially saying 'I'll play a character who's weaker in combat for more out of combat powers'.

It's a case of 'wanting to model multiple settings', in practice I'd tend to stick to teleportation drives (as I do when running SF generally) but would keep them below jumping anywhere in the galaxy. The point is that, in theory the two are interchangable (they both move the same distance in the same time for the same points), in practice you can use the two to model different forms of FTL travel. The system gives the option of using Flight or Teleport, it doesn't require either.

Also, in practice I assume most space fights are in orbit around a planet rather than deep space, due to there generally being less to fight over in deep space, although I'm more than willing to run the latter when it makes sense (space pirates, asteroid belt battles, and so on).

[noob]

How would advantage wealthy interact with space ships?(I mean can you buy some non military space ships?)

[Anonymouswizard]

How would advantage wealthy interact with space ships?(I mean can you buy them?)

How I'd run it is that a ship is too expensive for anybody to buy out of personal wealth. However I would allow players to sacrifice equipment points for one if they can justify getting ahold of one, including losing existing equipment.

Of course, anybody with a couple of ranks of wealth can buy tickets between planets, and if a ship is cheap enough in Equipment points buying a personal ship would work as reallocating points from the Wealthy advantage to the Equipment advantage.

Of course, if you have a business which owns ships you can probably travel from one planet to another without much difficulty by redirecting a flight, but that's equivalent to having the wealth to just buy a ticket. There is a difference between owning a company with ships (where the ships are busy helping your business make money), and owning a personal ship you may or may not use to make money.

Mainly because a ship is useful enough that not having to spend points on it would heavily unbalance the game. Of course, players can also pool equipment points to get a ship, which is how they're supposed to do it (although there's nothing wrong with owning a personal ship).

[noob]

Ok so you are not in a sci fi setting where everybody can get access to a ship easily.

[SilverLeaf167]

How'd this turn into a thread about the specifics of Sci-Fi M&M, anyway?

...I mean, I can see how, but why? :smallbiggrin:

[noob]

Because sci fi with too much high pl becomes super hard to gm.
Example: pl 10 sci fi.
A space ship pilot decide to take 20 ranks in piloting(costs 10 points),get a 200 point space ship(costs 40 points what it will get is mostly some ranks in size and 188 points in teleport(rank 94) for telephoning anywhere without restriction) and then sense:ranged,acute,accurate,penetrates concealment,counters concealment(the final version),counters illusion,precognition,post-cognition,rapid(a whole bunch of ranks),extended 30 times(way bigger than the universe)
Guess what: he have left over points.
He can go everywhere and see everything.

[SilverLeaf167]

I'd agree on the difficulties of GMing sci-fi (or rather, specific sorts of sci-fi) at high PLs. However, that has more to do with the genre itself than what you just listed about the mechanics. Any M&M game at any PL in any genre ever requires the GM to veto overblown, inappropriate or plain broken combinations. It's a basic assumption of the game.

[noob]

I'd agree on the difficulties of GMing sci-fi (or rather, specific sorts of sci-fi) at high PLs. However, that has more to do with the genre itself than what you just listed about the mechanics. Any M&M game at any PL in any genre ever requires the GM to veto overblown, inappropriate or plain broken combinations. It's a basic assumption of the game.
Yes but that thing is not using anything particular: he just took a fast space ship and long range sight.
In high power sci fi there is often comparable stuff if not more epic stuff.
(example: pretty much everything in warhammer 40k is comparably epic if not more)
Imagining the dynamics of a huge setting where there is a bunch of people with comparably mighty powers is very hard.
PL1 or 2 for everything makes it way less silly(do not forget to forbid gaining points from stat dumping and multiple action per turn shenanigans and infinite arrays of doom but that is the norm to remove all that when playing at low pl)

[SilverLeaf167]

Looks like one or both of us misunderstood. I agree that a sci-fi game at high PLs is difficult, because high PLs don't match what most people expect out of a typical sci-fi, as you said. The same way they don't match what people would want out of a pirate, detective, or honestly even fantasy game.

However, what you built - being able to see and be anywhere anytime - is the sort of thing that would break the vast majority of games, regardless of genre or PL, and the issue in that case is more with the GM not vetoing things than with high PLs in sci-fi. If that sort of thing is ever an issue, the answer (provided directly by the books!) is to say "No", and due to the way the game works, there really is no individual power or feat you couldn't easily remove if you wanted to.

I might just be arguing semantics though.

[noob]

Looks like one or both of us misunderstood. I agree that a sci-fi game at high PLs is difficult, because high PLs don't match what most people expect out of a typical sci-fi, as you said. The same way they don't match what people would want out of a pirate, detective, or honestly even fantasy game.

However, what you built - being able to be anywhere anytime - is the sort of thing that would break the vast majority of games, regardless of genre, and the issue in that case is more with the GM not vetoing things than with high PLs in sci-fi. If that sort of thing is ever an issue, the answer (provided directly by the books!) is to say "No", and due to the way the game works, there really is no individual power or feat you couldn't easily remove if you wanted to.

I might just be arguing semantics though.

In warhammer 40K there is someone who can do more than just being anywhere he wants at any time he can also mind control everything in a galaxy and travel through time and destroy galaxies and a whole lot of comparably absurd things.
What I say is that settings where a pl 10 character would fit often have super powered things beyond meaning.

[SilverLeaf167]

Yes, and those people exist in Marvel and DC too.

Difference is, they're not player characters, the only people PLs apply to in the first place. They're PL X plot devices.

[noob]

Yes, and those people exist in Marvel and DC too.

Difference is, they're not player characters, the only people PLs apply to in the first place. They're PL X plot devices.

And marvel and DC settings are insanely hard to run while keeping coherent.
I mean if you applied rationality for 10 minutes everything would change.
And there would be way more often heroes calling for back up and other stuff like that.
I mean when there is a monster who can destroy the universe there would often be more than just a bunch of heroes ready to fight it.

[SilverLeaf167]

Well, in that case you're just arguing against yourself. Omnipotent characters being a problem in every game, even high-powered ones, was my point exactly.

[Cazero]

Yes but that thing is not using anything particular: he just took a fast space ship and long range sight.
In high power sci fi there is often comparable stuff if not more epic stuff.
(example: pretty much everything in warhammer 40k is comparably epic if not more)
Pretty much nothing in 40K stand up to omniscience. How would the pilot justify that exactly?


PL1 or 2 for everything makes it way less silly(do not forget to forbid gaining points from stat dumping and multiple action per turn shenanigans and infinite arrays of doom but that is the norm to remove all that when playing at low pl)Lowering the PL doesn't help. Here is an example similar to your omniscience trick : Damage 1, Perception Range, Alternate Resistance (Fortitude), Affect Objects.
Total cost 5pp and low enough rank for a PL1 character, can instantly destroy planets and stars by RAW. Just add a telescope.
Now good luck making that work under any sane GM.

[noob]

Well, in that case you're just arguing against yourself. Omnipotent characters being a problem in every game, even high-powered ones, was my point exactly.

Yes and still there is people who runs marvel games and other stuff like that.
It is harder but still possible.
And there is a whole world of difference between very powerful and omnipotent.
Getting everywhere and destroying galaxies is very powerful but it is not omnipotence.



Lowering the PL doesn't help. Here is an example similar to your omniscience trick : Damage 1, Perception Range, Alternate Resistance (Fortitude), Affect Objects.
Total cost 5pp and low enough rank for a PL1 character, can instantly destroy planets and stars by RAW. Just add a telescope.
Now good luck making that work under any sane GM.

Perception range allows to hit only one object or creature at a time.(also where is the rules saying that a planet or a star is a single object?)
Perception shape would not work either: objects does not have senses.
And the power I mentioned is not omniscience: it is just seeing the whole world(which does not helps a lot when your character does not have the power to analyse all that: it just means that he can see any place but he can not understand what happens in all the places at the same time since he did not take any rank in quickness he will need a whole lot of time for interpreting stuff)
(rapid sense increase the frequency of the sense but it never says it improve your ability to conglomerate the input into analysed data.)

[Grod_The_Giant]

The Cosmic Power Profile touched on the whole "space scale" thing a bit-- they basically recommended modifying ranges and speeds and stuff to better suit whatever scale of space opera you're trying to operate on. Like most spaceship movies/comics/some books, it's a lot better to abstract away speeds and distances. Last time I did a (short-lived) space game using M&M, I basically said "here's a rough grid of the system; each square is, I dunno, one light-minute across. Your rank of Movement (Space Travel) determines how many squares you can move in a turn. The same square is melee range, close is one square, moderate is two, long is three."

And your point about the 400pp teleport/extended senses spaceship isn't really a problem with scifi. It's one part "abusing Equipment rules" and one part "M&M is not meant to be a simulation." It's Saturday Morning Superhero Cartoons: The RPG. It's great for punching people through walls, and collapses even faster than most superhero settings if you spend too much time thinking about how powers can affect the setting.

[noob]

The Cosmic Power Profile touched on the whole "space scale" thing a bit-- they basically recommended modifying ranges and speeds and stuff to better suit whatever scale of space opera you're trying to operate on. Like most spaceship movies/comics/some books, it's a lot better to abstract away speeds and distances. Last time I did a (short-lived) space game using M&M, I basically said "here's a rough grid of the system; each square is, I dunno, one light-minute across. Your rank of Movement (Space Travel) determines how many squares you can move in a turn. The same square is melee range, close is one square, moderate is two, long is three."

And your point about the 400pp teleport/extended senses spaceship isn't really a problem with scifi. It's one part "abusing Equipment rules" and one part "M&M is not meant to be a simulation." It's Saturday Morning Superhero Cartoons: The RPG. It's great for punching people through walls, and collapses even faster than most superhero settings if you spend too much time thinking about how powers can affect the setting.

The expended senses were on the character so the ship had only 200 pp all in movement.(and the senses costed less than 100pp)

Also I think it is as much setting breaking as a lot of other characters.(such as something as simple as a character who just takes time travel or a character who takes inventing(yes inventing without celerity: just the advantage and the skill for using it and nothing else) or a character which can summon impersonators)

[Anonymouswizard]

And marvel and DC settings are insanely hard to run while keeping coherent.
I mean if you applied rationality for 10 minutes everything would change.
And there would be way more often heroes calling for back up and other stuff like that.
I mean when there is a monster who can destroy the universe there would often be more than just a bunch of heroes ready to fight it.

I own the DC book instead of the standard book, so I can say that the trick they use is to not actually stat the comics characters accurately. Superman is ~300PP PL15 character, because that's all he really needs to be in comparison to the standard PCs in order to keep his big good status. But established settings also tend to have too many supers running around for most people to keep them consistent, with a handful of exceptions.

I'll admit, one game of M&M I was in was essentially a metasetting where you could use whatever superhero organisation you wanted, as long as you understood that the original comics membership wasn't active and it wasn't from Marvel or DC. It was weird compared to a later game I played, which effectively worked on superposition (details were only ever established if asked for, and would generally be what made the game more fun, I think there ended up being about 12 'official' superheroes and villains actually defined apart from the PCs, because only one other city was important enough plot wise for cameo characters).


The Cosmic Power Profile touched on the whole "space scale" thing a bit-- they basically recommended modifying ranges and speeds and stuff to better suit whatever scale of space opera you're trying to operate on. Like most spaceship movies/comics/some books, it's a lot better to abstract away speeds and distances. Last time I did a (short-lived) space game using M&M, I basically said "here's a rough grid of the system; each square is, I dunno, one light-minute across. Your rank of Movement (Space Travel) determines how many squares you can move in a turn. The same square is melee range, close is one square, moderate is two, long is three."

I'll have a look, I'm hoping to pick up the cosmic handbook at some point. I'm planning to have in-system travel use the flight power, because I can just do a case of 'higher flight rank gives +2 to opposed piloting checks and +10 to escape attempts', or have characters add their ship's speed to their piloting rolls, or something like that. But I also wouldn't do a grid of the system, it would be very rough positions marked on scrap paper.

To do serious discussion of how to treat FTL, in practice if a vehicle has vacuum protection and flight the ability to move FTL outside of combat or chase time is a 1 point feature for an average drive, 2 points for a fast drive, 3 points for a very fast drive, and so on. In essence we don't need to know exactly how fast the ship moves rules wise, we can just say 'the drive with the higher points cost wins a contest of speed'. Discussing beings and objects moving FTL in normal space is something that should be discussed, if only because a standard PL10 character can achieve FTL speeds with a heafty but reasonable investment (the short answer I'd give if a player asked is to ban high enough ranks to reach relativistic velocities or higher, although I accept that using comic book physics they just move that fast and we ignore all energy problems).


And your point about the 400pp teleport/extended senses spaceship isn't really a problem with scifi. It's one part "abusing Equipment rules" and one part "M&M is not meant to be a simulation." It's Saturday Morning Superhero Cartoons: The RPG. It's great for punching people through walls, and collapses even faster than most superhero settings if you spend too much time thinking about how powers can affect the setting.

Agreeing here. Discussing how to build an FTL drive or teleport anywhere in the universe using strictly RAW is fun, but it breaks M&M because it's not what the system was designed for. It runs on comic book physics, where moving FTL in an atmosphere doesn't even cause heat from all the friction, having omniscience doesn't stop your character from being punched through a wall unless they also have high Parry.

[Alcore]

"Alright you have omniscience; you know everything because you see, hear, feel, smell everything in the universe. Do you have the mental capacity to comprehend and act apon that information? No? While i describe, in breath taking beauty, how a sun is made lightyears away a man stabs you and being a tiny speck of a man you fail to notice it out of everything else."

Game over....


I never understood the appeal for omniscience.

[Cazero]

"Alright you have omniscience; you know everything because you see, hear, feel, smell everything in the universe. Do you have the mental capacity to comprehend and act apon that information? No? While i describe, in breath taking beauty, how a sun is made lightyears away a man stabs you and being a tiny speck of a man you fail to notice it out of everything else."

Game over....


I never understood the appeal for omniscience.
Quickness is cheap. Having the mental capacity to comprehend and act upon omniscience cost something like 15pp at most.

[Scots Dragon]

It's Saturday Morning Superhero Cartoons: The RPG.

To nitpick slightly, it's Wednesday Superhero Comic-Books: The RPG. Not that there's much difference, but...

[Grod_The_Giant]

To nitpick slightly, it's Wednesday Superhero Comic-Books: The RPG. Not that there's much difference, but...
No no, I'm going to stick to my guns. It's exactly the DCAU, Justice League Unlimited/Young Justice sort of paradigm, where Batman can blow up a tank with an explosive baterang, and the same explosion can daze Superboy and Robin about equally.

[Scots Dragon]

No no, I'm going to stick to my guns. It's exactly the DCAU, Justice League Unlimited/Young Justice sort of paradigm, where Batman can blow up a tank with an explosive baterang, and the same explosion can daze Superboy and Robin about equally.

I kinda think ICONS (by the same designer no less!) fits that model a little bit more, but that might be because I tend to favour M&M 2e over the more recent M&M 3e, and impervious toughness is somewhat stronger in that edition.

[noob]

"Alright you have omniscience; you know everything because you see, hear, feel, smell everything in the universe. Do you have the mental capacity to comprehend and act apon that information? No? While i describe, in breath taking beauty, how a sun is made lightyears away a man stabs you and being a tiny speck of a man you fail to notice it out of everything else."

Game over....


I never understood the appeal for omniscience.

I kind of explained why long range sight did not help a lot a bit before that post.
You can analyse only a very limited amount of data with an human brain so you can not analyse what happens except for a very small area.

[Draz74]

I've just skimmed this thread, not read it carefully; I'm just replying to the OP.

I think low-PL M&M is a pretty great system for modeling crime dramas (like NCIS or Hawaii: 5-0), or alternatively heist stories (like Leverage or Ocean's 11). Also good for something like Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.