Would like some feedback for my race, the Norker!

[mkirshnikov]

I heard about the Norker last night, and was surprised at how much I liked them. I've read about them from a couple different sites and watched AJ Pickett's video about them, and today I decided to make them a race. I'm content with most things about the race, but the only thing keeping me from calling this finished is the Toughness trait. Don't know if it'd be too much with the Natural armor, but I think I'm worrying too much.

Link: http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/B1X14olJVM

Also, links to AJ Pickett's video, and the the sites where I got most of my information below.

AJ Pickett: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRB4vlerl60

Norker source 1: http://thecreaturechronicle.tumblr.com/post/108178230094/norker

Norker Source 2: https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Norker

[JNAProductions]

Natural armor is too good. I'm iffy granting 13+Dex, since that's a class feature of a Draconic Sorcerer, but this is MILES better, since it lets you dump Dex entirely and just pump Con.

[mkirshnikov]

Natural armor is too good. I'm iffy granting 13+Dex, since that's a class feature of a Draconic Sorcerer, but this is MILES better, since it lets you dump Dex entirely and just pump Con.

There's a couple reasons why I used Con instead of Dex, and I know that it's basically a straight upgrade in every case if you're using a melee class. In cases like rogues or rangers, who usually use Dex as their main stat, you get the same AC but with higher damage and better Dexterity saving throws.

If you would say that pumping Con for AC would be better because it would get you a good AC and high health, I would disagree and say pumping Dex as a rogue or ranger would be just as good because you'd be pumping your attack and damage stat, your AC stat and your saving throw for the most common saving throw in the game. I think it balances out mechanically.

It also makes sense to change this to Con because Norkers are small but extremely hardy creatures, but they are also very lazy and very heavy for their size, and they almost never wear armor, usually just a loincloth and a two handed weapon(Two handed for them). So, chances are they aren't going to be able to dodge attacks like a normal goblin or rogue or some such. They'll just raise their bone-covered arm and block it because it's easier. I made the modifier Con instead of Dex to represent this.

[JNAProductions]

I'm not arguing fluff. I'm arguing crunch. And crunch-wise, it's too strong.

[mkirshnikov]

I'm not arguing fluff. I'm arguing crunch. And crunch-wise, it's too strong.

And as I explained in the post, I don't think it is too strong.

[Blackbando]

Gonna agree with JNA, here. Sure, it's true; it's not very good on a Rogue, or a Ranger. Y'know what it is good on? Most everything else. Barbarians can have low Dexterity and still have great AC, spellcasters can ignore dexterity entirely (for the most part), and even with your listed example of Ranger, it can work greatly on a ranger that needs more hit points compared to damage. If you want to keep the Constitution natural armor (which I'd still disagree with to be completely honest), you should make it lower than 13. Maybe 12 or 11 + Constitution will make it more balanced. I'd say more so 11 compared to 12.

[demonslayerelf]

You know what, I'm gonna bat for the other team, guys. I gotta say, it's really not that important.

It helps at lower levels, sure, but most classes can simply wear medium/heavy armor. Even the best Barbarian Norker will cap out at AC 18 until 20th level, when it becomes AC 20. I mean, even if you're talking a caster, their constitution will usually be something like 16 until the higher levels, which places their AC at the same 16. Most people can just put on some armor to get within 1 or 2 of that, if not supersede that. That's at lower levels.

At higher levels, AC might as well not even matter. Attack bonuses get to be so high, that your AC might as well be a 1, unless you've done a heavy-AC build(Like the Bladesinger, Light armor, Protection fighting style, mariner fighting style, haste, githerzai, shield build that has a 35 AC more or less each round), and this 13+con is DEFINITELY not that. Again, it caps at 20 for a Barb 20. The shield doesn't make too much of a difference.


I guess it comes to the same situation as Natural Weapons. Compared to the standard of 10+dex(Or 1 bludgeoning damage, for a "Human Natural Weapon"), it's awesome. But then you remember that weapons are more plentiful than people in most worlds, and armour is only slightly less prevalent. In very particular circumstances, it's pretty dope(Like being assassinated at night; Instead of that 10 AC, you have an 18, which is nice), but for the most part, it's basically nothing.

[Ninja_Prawn]

I dunno... by Musicus points this is right at the top of the power curve before you even consider its unique potential to reduce MADness.


3 ASI
-0.5 Small, but 30ft movement
0.5 Darkvision
2 13+Stat Natural Armour
1 1d6 Natural Weapon
1.5 Toughness

Total: 7.5

I wouldn't allow my players to have this as-is.

[Lalliman]

While the natural armour might be fine for a front- or mid-liner, the weird thing is that it strongly benefits the classes which are least thematic for this race to use. A Norker wizard or sorcerer would be amazing. Your save DC and spell attack bonus will be one point behind, but your HP, AC and concentration saves will be through the roof compared to your squishy brethren. The only racial feature that's wasted on a caster is the Bite Attack, but then again that's a ribbon no matter your class.

I appreciate the idea behind the Natural Armour feature, but if a brutal goblinoid race mechanically favours wizards as possibly their best class, then something went wrong.

[Blackbando]

It helps at lower levels, sure, but most classes can simply wear medium/heavy armor. Even the best Barbarian Norker will cap out at AC 18 until 20th level, when it becomes AC 20. I mean, even if you're talking a caster, their constitution will usually be something like 16 until the higher levels, which places their AC at the same 16. Most people can just put on some armor to get within 1 or 2 of that, if not supersede that. That's at lower levels.
Let's imagine a Norker warlock, here. +2 Con, +1 Dex. With point buy, they can hit 17 Con, 15 Cha, and 16 Dex. Not the best for the spellcasting score, but that'll improve later. Next level, they can up Con and Cha, and now have 17 AC (or 19 with a shield) as well as +4 hit points per level and +4 to concentration saving throws. Even if they never up their Constitution again until 16th level, they get much more benefits for having Constitution like this compared to Dexterity.[/QUOTE]



At higher levels, AC might as well not even matter.
Yeah. Most campaigns don't hit higher levels, or if they do, not for very long.



I guess it comes to the same situation as Natural Weapons. Compared to the standard of 10+dex(Or 1 bludgeoning damage, for a "Human Natural Weapon"), it's awesome. But then you remember that weapons are more plentiful than people in most worlds, and armour is only slightly less prevalent. In very particular circumstances, it's pretty dope(Like being assassinated at night; Instead of that 10 AC, you have an 18, which is nice), but for the most part, it's basically nothing.

Except, most casters can't have that armor. They'd need a feat or multiclassing to get it. This gives it to them for free, plus none of the downsides of wearing armor.

[JNAProductions]

Let's imagine a Norker warlock, here. +2 Con, +1 Dex. With point buy, they can hit 17 Con, 15 Cha, and 16 Dex. Not the best for the spellcasting score, but that'll improve later. Next level, they can up Con and Cha, and now have 17 AC (or 19 with a shield) as well as +4 hit points per level and +4 to concentration saving throws. Even if they never up their Constitution again until 16th level, they get much more benefits for having Constitution like this compared to Dexterity.

Except, why have a good Dex score? You can safely dump it, leaving you free to increase other stats.

And while Dex might be a common save, nearly all Dex saves do is inflict HP damage-something you can resist by having lots of HP.

[mkirshnikov]

I dunno... by Musicus points this is right at the top of the power curve before you even consider its unique potential to reduce MADness.


3 ASI
-0.5 Small, but 30ft movement
0.5 Darkvision
2 13+Stat Natural Armour
1 1d6 Natural Weapon
1.5 Toughness

Total: 7.5

I wouldn't allow my players to have this as-is.

Actually the bite weapon was supposed to be a D4, but I copypasted the Lizardfolk's bite attack and forgot to change the D6 :P

I thought about it, and I think the speed should actually be 25 feet. It makes more sense imo, they are lazy, and very heavy creatures for their size, so why are they just as fast as everyone else, know what I mean?

Also, thanks for reminding me of the Musicus scale, I totally forgot about it. I'll be using it for any future races and such.


Barbarians can have low Dexterity and still have great AC, spellcasters can ignore dexterity entirely (for the most part), and even with your listed example of Ranger, it can work greatly on a ranger that needs more hit points compared to damage.

Thats what it was meant for, trading Dex for Con. What you say with Ranger also proves that, you trade one useful skill for another. Trading bonus to hit and damage for extra health.


I mean, even if you're talking a caster, their constitution will usually be something like 16 until the higher levels, which places their AC at the same 16. Most people can just put on some armor to get within 1 or 2 of that, if not supersede that. That's at lower levels.

Yeah, even if the caster has a low constitution, they can get a 16 AC easily in another way. Using standard scores, they'd just have to put the 13 on strength and start as a fighter with Chainmail, then level up warlock for the rest of the game.


Except, most casters can't have that armor. They'd need a feat or multiclassing to get it. This gives it to them for free, plus none of the downsides of wearing armor.

Except that to get no penalties for wearing armor except for the stealth penalty, they'd just have to put a 13 into strength and start the game as a level 1 fighter, then never level up fighter or Strength again. They'll have enough strength to use it, and they'll be proficient with it so they can cast spells in it. And even with this, if they are a Hill dwarf, they get the same amount of health, the same AC, the same bump to Con and even a bump to WIS, which can help a druid or cleric's spells. And, they aren't slowed by heavy armor, so they don't even need to increase Strength to use stronger armor later in the game.


While the natural armour might be fine for a front- or mid-liner, the weird thing is that it strongly benefits the classes which are least thematic for this race to use.

So it comes down to this being the main gripe. I know I'm disagreeing with you guys, but I can see why you think what you think, and I somewhat agree, but I don't think its as big of a deal as you make it out to be. But, if I were to change it, what do you guys think I should change to make it good for a front-liner, but less useful for a caster?

[mkirshnikov]

[QUOTE=mkirshnikov;22731303]Actually the bite weapon was supposed to be a D4, but I copypasted the Lizardfolk's bite attack and forgot to change the D6 :P

I thought about it, and I think the speed should actually be 25 feet. It makes more sense imo, they are lazy, and very heavy creatures for their size, so why are they just as fast as everyone else, know what I mean?

Also, thanks for reminding me of the Musicus scale, I totally forgot about it. I'll be using it for any future races and such.



Thats what it was meant for, trading Dex for Con. What you say with Ranger also proves that, you trade one useful skill for another. Trading bonus to hit and damage for extra health.



Yeah, even if the caster has a low constitution, they can get a 16 AC easily in another way. Using standard scores, they'd just have to put the 13 on strength and start as a fighter with Chainmail, then level up warlock for the rest of the game.



Except that to get no penalties for wearing armor except for the stealth penalty, they'd just have to put a 13 into strength and start the game as a level 1 fighter, then never level up fighter or Strength again. They'll have enough strength to use it, and they'll be proficient with it so they can cast spells in it. And even with this, if they are a Hill dwarf, they get the same amount of health, the same AC, the same bump to Con and even a bump to WIS, which can help a druid or cleric's spells. And, they aren't slowed by heavy armor, so they don't even need to increase Strength to use stronger armor later in the game.



So it comes down to this being the main gripe. I know I'm disagreeing with you guys, but I can see why you think what you think, and I somewhat agree, but I don't think its as big of a deal as you make it out to be. But, if I were to change it, what do you guys think I should change to make it good for a front-liner, but less useful for a caster?

Edit: Just thought of a possible fix, since the fluff around them not using dex would be that they are lazy, heavy and not dextrous, therefore they would just block attacks with their arm etc., it could be 13+Str Mod?

[JNAProductions]

You don't see starting one level as fighter and being forever behind a level on spells as a big deal?

[Blackbando]

13 + Strength is better, at least. Makes Barbarians closer to being SAD, but I think that's it for powerful combos? I may be wrong on that, though.

Also, if it's meant to be based on them blocking attacks with their arm, I don't really get how it'd work with shields, unless the shields are really small.

[mkirshnikov]

You don't see starting one level as fighter and being forever behind a level on spells as a big deal?
No, not really. Yes, you'd be getting your spells a level later than the other casters, but you'd be much less squishy. You'd be able to upgrade your chainmail to plate armor, you'd have that boost to Con and Toughness that comes with Hill Dwarf and if you have the Warcaster feat, you can use a shield and cast spells at the same time.


Makes Barbarians closer to being SAD, but I think that's it for powerful combos? I may be wrong on that, though.

Well, the Natural armor is meant to be more useful to the martial classes like Fighter and Barbarian.

[Fire Tarrasque]

I like it. Lizardfolk clearly has no problem with it, and if you got Barbarian theres no real advantage.