Is Oathbreaker/Hexblade combo broken?

[Spacehamster]

I mean its pretty much a capstone combination so I guess I will answer my own question with nope I guess not but
darn, hexblade´s curse + bladelock CHA to damage, normal CHA to damage from hexblade and Oathbreaker aura CHA to damage,
thats a flat +21 damage to all attacks at level 20 with 19-20 crits, not too shabby.

Cope it with an allied totem barbarian with the wolf ability to grant advantage while adjacent to the raging barb, smites, lock smites and a
banishing smite bonus action and you have yourself a pretty awesome nova. :)

So I will rephrase my question, how would you level this as in which order to take the levels? I would prob
go 1 Hexblade to get CHA to damage on one handed weapons and fight with a long sword and shield, go Oathbreaker
levels 2-10 to gain smites, +1AC style, aura, 2 ASI´s, extra attack, then hexblade 11-20 to gain more spells, ability to use 2H weapons with
CHA and swap to great sword.

Race Half elf with STR 13, DEX 14, CON 15, INT 8, WIS 8, CHA 17
Feats/ASI´s at char levels: 5: Elven accuracy, 9: Max CHA, 12: GWM, 16: Resilient(CON) and 20: +2 CON
Skills: Deception and Intimidation from warlock, Athletics and Perception from sailor, Persuasion and Stealth from Half elf.

Seems like a legit build that functions from start to finish + you get to pretty much be Arthas, evil paladin that wields a runblade. :D
Would play him as a lawful evil tyrant that only cares to amass power and wealth but abides by his own code(don´t betray those useful
to your acension to power etc)

[Zanthy1]

So overall it seems fine, however Oathbreaker being a DM dependent path to take (and most DMs will not allow it). An Oath of Conquest Paladin however would get you much the desired results, even better probably if you utilize the fear aura correctly (for one it would eliminate the need to stand next to that dirty barbarian).

Oathbreaker is a pretty powerful oath, some would say OP, myself included. Using it at all is not something I'd ever allow my players to do (unless I specifically wanted the to go that route for some reason). Combining it with anything slightly synergistic would be OP

[PeteNutButter]

Oathbreaker is a pretty powerful oath, some would say OP, myself included. Using it at all is not something I'd ever allow my players to do (unless I specifically wanted the to go that route for some reason). Combining it with anything slightly synergistic would be OP

This^

Oathbreaker gets a feature that is potentially more powerful than the 11th level paladin feature(a level 11 warlock feature), but at level 7... when every other paladin is getting defensive abilities. That's pretty much the picture of what not to do for class balance.

Fortunately it isn't made for players, and isn't something anyone should plan to do. You have to have an oath, and then break it, and have a DM that is dumb enough to let you use the DMG Oathbreaker as is.

As an aside, does anyone else feel like the Oathbreaker needed a single line in its class that said: "Whenever a paladin spell or ability causes you to deal radiant damage, you deal necrotic damage instead." It feels really weird having evil paladins run around holy smiting.

[JoyfulJester]

As an aside, does anyone else feel like the Oathbreaker needed a single line in its class that said: "Whenever a paladin spell or ability causes you to deal radiant damage, you deal necrotic damage instead." It feels really weird having evil paladins run around holy smiting.

It's not the power they draw from that makes them evil, it's what they do with it. In Christian/Catholic beliefs Lucifer is still an archangel, he just broke his oath with God and got shunned from heaven. Lucifer, the ultimate Oathbreaker.

[Mikal]

Meh you get it at level 19. Not really that broken.
I'd probably start with paladin first for a level for heavy armor, then warlock for 1 or 3 levels (if going great weapon), then either paladin to 7, then warlock to 12, with you final level paladin 8.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Bear in mind that the Oathbreaker's aura can backfire hilariously - the boost to nearby fiends and undead isn't selective. Our DM once threw a group of Oathbreakers against our party while my Wizard was shapechanged into a Pit Fiend - they did not last very long.

[PeteNutButter]

Bear in mind that the Oathbreaker's aura can backfire hilariously - the boost to nearby fiends and undead isn't selective. Our DM once threw a group of Oathbreakers against our party while my Wizard was shapechanged into a Pit Fiend - they did not last very long.

That’s a good point, but there is also a potential upside. In CoS (minor spoiler) there are ways PCs can become undead. So you could potentially be buffing the entire team’s damage. While taking extra damage from basically everything lol. Could be a fun place to play an Oathbreaker.

[suplee215]

Does it even work? I might be misremembering a rule but I thought you can only add a specific stat modifier once (with Aura of Protection being different due to the wording). Does Oathbreaker, Life Drinker, and Hex Blade say "a bonus equal to your chr modifier" or just "add your chr modifier to damage"? If the latter then it does not stack.

[PeteNutButter]

Does it even work? I might be misremembering a rule but I thought you can only add a specific stat modifier once (with Aura of Protection being different due to the wording). Does Oathbreaker, Life Drinker, and Hex Blade say "a bonus equal to your chr modifier" or just "add your chr modifier to damage"? If the latter then it does not stack.

No such rule exists in 5e.

EDIT: If such a rule did exist a normal hexblade bladelock would be very very unhappy at level 11.

[suplee215]

No such rule exists in 5e.

EDIT: If such a rule did exist a normal hexblade bladelock would be very very unhappy at level 11.

Fair enough, for some reason I remembered discussion online about it but guess it was wrong or people using older editions.

[Mikal]

Fair enough, for some reason I remembered discussion online about it but guess it was wrong or people using older editions.

You can't benefit from the same effect with the same proper name I.e. Two bless spells or two aura of protections.
You do get to stack different sources for bonuses though, such as two different sources that provide armor bonuses, or hex warrior, life drinker, and the paladins level 7 aura

See page 5 of xanathars "combining different effects"

[Sception]

Eh, I don't see it as problematic, balance wise. Again, you're only getting more cha to damage than a single classed oathbreaker or hexbladelock at levels 19-20, around the time single classed characters are getting OP capstones anyway. Especially Oathbreaker - paladin oath level 20s are nothing to sneaze at, and if I were playing a level 20 oathbreaker, I'm not sure I'd trade away that capstone for just +5 damage to melee attacks. Let alone the level 15 feature, and access to 3rd, 4th, and 5th level paladin spells, some of which - animate dead, find greater steed, destructive wave - are very nice to have.

I mean, heck, you'd have to give up improved divine smite to do this, and that's already +4.5 damage on average already, so you're only .5 damage per hit up on a single classed oathbreaker anyway, and many levels later to boot.

Not that I'm saying oathbreaker/hexblade is a bad combo. It's a great combo. Hex warrior does wonders for any cha gish, including each and every type of paladin, freeing up late progression ASIs, letting you up your physical and spell attack at the same time early on, netting you a stronger aura of protection much sooner. And that's before we get to booming blade, the shield spell, short rest recharging slots to smite with, a solid ranged fallback.

You get a lot out of the multiclass, but you're also giving a lot up from paladin, especially at the end of progression levels that you're talking about by the time lifedrinker + oathbreaker aura are coming online.


As for Oathbraker being unbalanced on its own, I don't personally think so. It gets some nice stuff, and a damage boost, but several other paladins, in particular ancients and conquest, get auras just as potent, while others have nicer oath spell lists or more reliable CDs. Oathbreaker is strong, but paladins are strong in general, and that damage boost is just as exploitable by the DM as it is by the player. Unless the GM is willing to re-fluff it (for example, refluffing the dark powers of the subclass as a curse in the matter of Simon Belmont from Castlevania or Guts from Berserk works well, and it certainly feels like a curse when demons and undead start crawling out of the woodwork to beat on you with your own damage buffs), then it probably doesn't work for most campaigns on a thematic level, but I don't see any mechanical reason to get bent out of shape about it.

[PeteNutButter]

Eh, I don't see it as problematic, balance wise. Again, you're only getting more cha to damage than a single classed oathbreaker or hexbladelock at levels 19-20, around the time single classed characters are getting OP capstones anyway. Especially Oathbreaker - paladin oath level 20s are nothing to sneaze at, and if I were playing a level 20 oathbreaker, I'm not sure I'd trade away that capstone for just +5 damage to melee attacks. Let alone the level 15 feature, and access to 3rd, 4th, and 5th level paladin spells, some of which - animate dead, find greater steed, destructive wave - are very nice to have.

I mean, heck, you'd have to give up improved divine smite to do this, and that's already +4.5 damage on average already, so you're only .5 damage per hit up on a single classed oathbreaker anyway, and many levels later to boot.

Not that I'm saying oathbreaker/hexblade is a bad combo. It's a great combo. Hex warrior does wonders for any cha gish, including each and every type of paladin, freeing up late progression ASIs, letting you up your physical and spell attack at the same time early on, netting you a stronger aura of protection much sooner. And that's before we get to booming blade, the shield spell, short rest recharging slots to smite with, a solid ranged fallback.

You get a lot out of the multiclass, but you're also giving a lot up from paladin, especially at the end of progression levels that you're talking about by the time lifedrinker + oathbreaker aura are coming online.


As for Oathbraker being unbalanced on its own, I don't personally think so. It gets some nice stuff, and a damage boost, but several other paladins, in particular ancients and conquest, get auras just as potent, while others have nicer oath spell lists or more reliable CDs. Oathbreaker is strong, but paladins are strong in general, and that damage boost is just as exploitable by the DM as it is by the player. Unless the GM is willing to re-fluff it (for example, refluffing the dark powers of the subclass as a curse in the matter of Simon Belmont from Castlevania or Guts from Berserk works well, and it certainly feels like a curse when demons and undead start crawling out of the woodwork to beat on you with your own damage buffs), then it probably doesn't work for most campaigns on a thematic level, but I don't see any mechanical reason to get bent out of shape about it.

It's far easier to dip one level into hexblade and take paladin to 11. Then you can leave str at 15, and max cha by level 9. By level 12, you'll be adding putting out 2d8+12 per attack. Make it even cheesier and grab PAM to deal (1d6+1d8+12)*2 + 1d4+1d8+12. That's 69 average damage or roughly 44.85 DPR, assuming 65% hit chance. For comparison the PAM & Board fighter only does average of 41 damage or 27 DPR, assuming 65% hit chance. So his base DPR is higher than the fighter, he has +5 to every save, a bunch of spells and support, and can smite. The fighter has one extra feat to play with, so could potentially have GWM + PAM sooner, but is otherwise left in the dust. Battle Master moves are nice, but the palalock has short rest smites too.

There is a reason that Improved Divine Smite, Life Drinker, Fighter 3rd attack, and [to a lesser extent] Whirlwind/Volley are all attached to level 11. They are huge DPR increases that should not be able to be combined with each other. Giving one of those (or its equivalent) at level 7 is just not balanced. It's the kind of DPR increase that the designers carefully avoided giving to classes pre-level 11 in every other instance. Even without any multiclassing the base Oathbreaker does a good 30-50% more damage than any other paladin.

[Sception]

Without multiclassing, the base oathbreaker isnt doing that much extra damage until higher levels due to split attack stats. And as for other classes not getting similar damage boosts until higher levels, warlocks get cha to eldritch blast at level two, and draconic sorcerers get cha to spell damage of their chosen element at level six, both earlier than the oathbreaker's level seven aura. And while those abilities are more narrow, they also aren't easily exploitable by enemies.

The fighter also has action surge, more feats, more attacks per action, and short rest recharges without multiclassing, and with multiclassing has that valuable con save proficiency.

I do agree that oathbreaker 11 hexblade 1 looks a lot more problematic than oathbreaker 7 hexblade 12. But the only problem with the combo that i can see is that hex warrior should be a three level investment rather than one. As ever, hexblade without hex warrior isnt a problem, the problem is that they decided to stuff a blade pact fix into what was otherwise already a perfectly fine warlock patron.

Oathbreaker on its own is more damage than other paladins, but it's also much less protection than ancients, and much less control than conquest, and actually increases party vulnerability to classes of enemies that paladins are otherwise normally helpful against. But none of that strikes me as unreasonable. Different subclasses are allowed to make different trade offs.

[Grunker]

No such rule exists in 5e.

EDIT: If such a rule did exist a normal hexblade bladelock would be very very unhappy at level 11.

Sorry to revive a very old thread, but why is this? Currently playing a Hexblade bladelock and I'm missing what happens at 11 that makes stacking CHA boni relevant.

[Galithar]

Sorry to revive a very old thread, but why is this? Currently playing a Hexblade bladelock and I'm missing what happens at 11 that makes stacking CHA boni relevant.

They get CHA on attack and damage from Hex Warrior and the Life Drinker Invocation can be taken at 11 to add CHA mod necrotic damage to your hits with a pact weapon.

[Dudu]

This is a "Cha goes to almost everything" combo. Damage, attacks, spell DCs, spell attacks and a big bonus to saves. Just max Cha asap and you might be strictly stronger in every aspect compared to fellow party members.

Personally, when multiclassing or, more rarely, gestalting*, I take a look at classes and divide them into families. So, there's what I call the "charisma family". Warlocks, Paladins, Bards and Sorcerers. Played with a Hexblade/Blade Bard once for funsies and thematic synergy. Worked wonders. Now I'm playing with a gestalt Oathbreaker//Divine Soul Sorcerer and as you can guess it's pretty brutal. I'd say the hexblade shenanigan of using Cha for attack rolls is dismissable, in this case.

The DM in the gestalt campaign said it was ok to chose the Oathbreaker. The character had some solid theme, since he was also a Fallen Aasimar. I do feel he doesn't break the game to be honest.

*Gestalt is when you progress two classes simultaneously. It's an optimizer playground and the DM has to bump up the challenge of the encounters substantially if the players make a really fine tuned combo.

[Grunker]

They get CHA on attack and damage from Hex Warrior and the Life Drinker Invocation can be taken at 11 to add CHA mod necrotic damage to your hits with a pact weapon.

Doesn’t Lifedrinker require Warlock lvl 12?

[Galithar]

Doesn’t Lifedrinker require Warlock lvl 12?

Yes it does. Probably just the initial poster had the wrong level and I didn't correct it, nor did anyone else.

If the level 11 wasn't a mistake, then I don't know what they're taking about :P

[Mikal]

Yeah probably meant level 12. Then oathbreaker 7 for that shiny triple charisma. Better cap stone than most paladin/warlock stuff imo.

[jdolch]

I don't see how getting something at level 20 makes a class "broken".

At that level normal Sorcerers get "Wish" for crying out loud. It's not meant to be balanced. At that level PCs are basically Demi Gods. Who cares if you get +whatever to an attack. I may be wrong but if, at that level, your best move is to still punch people in the face, then you did something wrong.

Edit. Oh, didn't realize someone is practicing necromancy with old threads :P

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

The Hexblade giving Cha to hit and damage is the real problem. Especially since the opportunity cost is so low, you have to dip just one level. It pushes several otherwise MAD melee/magic builds to the top of the power curve. Sorc/Hexblade and Bard(Blade)/Hexblade are probably stronger overall then Paladin/Hexblades.

The Oathbreaker does not seem to be particularly broken imho. A Dragon Sorc/Hexblade gets 3x cha to damage with Greenflame Blade+Elemental affinity. He's not slowed by Armor and has a way stronger spellcasting.

[Galithar]

The Hexblade giving Cha to hit and damage is the real problem. Especially since the opportunity cost is so low, you have to dip just one level. It pushes several otherwise MAD melee/magic builds to the top of the power curve. Sorc/Hexblade and Bard(Blade)/Hexblade are probably stronger overall then Paladin/Hexblades.

The Oathbreaker does not seem to be particularly broken imho. A Dragon Sorc/Hexblade gets 3x cha to damage with Greenflame Blade+Elemental affinity. He's not slowed by Armor and has a way stronger spellcasting.

You're neglecting to account for the full cost of that. For a Dragon Sorc Hexblade to get 3x Cha to a single attack requires 18 levels... 12 in Hexblade 6 in Draconic Bloodline. That's hardly impressive when the same character can probably deal more damage with Eldritch Blast which gets to add CHA 4 times (per cast) at that level and can quicken and get another Cha*4 where

So GFB at level 18
(Weapon damage)+CHA*2+3d8
3d8+CHA

With a Great Weapon to maximize damage in a perfect world that's
6.5+10+13.5 = 30 Avg
13.5+5 = 18.5 Avg
48.5 IF two people are standing next to each other.

Or just spam Eldritch Blast for
4d10+CHA*4 along with 4 hits to proc your Hexblades curse and/or Hex.

Or 22+20 = 42 Avg with a greater range and no need for two targets to be side by side.

Not to mention the Hexblade/Dragon Sorcerer has a terrible spell slot progression (Opinion not fact on the terrible progression) in order to create a sub-par combo that comes online at high level.

To address Oathbreaker, you get the same thing if you split your build 7 Oathbreaker/12 Hexblade. Except you have extra attack, don't require you targets side by side, and can use the PAM/GWM combo while getting triple Charisma on ALL attacks.

Or (2d6+25)*2+1d4+25
(Attack, Extra Attack, PAM bonus attack)
Which is 91.5 Avg
Taking GWM out of the equation because it wasn't used in the last equation that's still a 0 resource attack for 61.5 Average damage.
At least that's A GOOD combo that doesn't fully come online till high level. Plus the fact that the Paladin build can be in Heavy Armor gets Cha added to all saves, and can buff minions (fiends/undead) within 10 feet. A FAR Superior whiteroom build.

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

You're neglecting to account for the full cost of that. For a Dragon Sorc Hexblade to get 3x Cha to a single attack requires 18 levels... 12 in Hexblade 6 in Draconic Bloodline.

?

+Cha to base weapon damage
+Cha to fire damage with Green Flame Blade
+Cha to second target with Green Flame Blade

Achievable at level 7.

Don't dip more then one level Hexblade. Keep your arcane casting as high as possible.

At level 18, a Hexblade/Dragon Sorc deals 46,5 (5d8+15) base damage per attack. GFB gets 2d8 at 5/11/17. GWM isn't just +10 damage, it is also -5 to hit. Please calculate effective damage vs 19 AC (challenge rating appropriate AC). That impressive looking 90 damage will be a lot less. Mine will do about 30.2 not counting crits (too lazy right now).

Your Oathbreaker is better at raw damage. Since I use a shield, armor class is equal or better (if I find a magic shield). You get your saves, I get counterspell - far more important at this level as you don't get to save vs spells like Force Cage. But my Sorc had to only dip one measly level into Hexblade to get all that. I am still only one level behind a regular Sorc. This means I have a big array of abilities that can break an encounter on it's own. It's not a wizard's list, but still pretty powerful.

Don't get me wrong: Your build is strong. It deals a ton of damage and has his aura. But he is loud and slow and can't cast high level spells. Not quite a one trick pony but not a versatile character either.

[Asmotherion]

In standard campains, the Oathbreaker becomes an NPC on his path to become a Death Knight, like the Warlock who breaks his pact will become a Deathlock or something similar.

In rare campains were "everything goes", sure it's a cool combo. But the other PCs will either go for something similar, or will try to stop you. The former is fun, the latter usually comes from bad story planning on the DM's part.

[BobZan]

I'd let a player take the Oathbreaker road in some campaigns. Will be welcome to do so in CoS!