Avoiding Size Prereqs as a Fighter

[unbeliever536]

Coming over here from the OOTS forum, since I've just noticed something potentially interesting and I want to see if it's actually possible.

All the way back in strip 114 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html), Roy throws Xykon into the Gate. While people get knocked huge distances all the time in OOTS, and that can't really be explained in D&D terms, this is as far as I can remember the only time someone actually picks up and throws their opponent. He also much more recently tossed a boulder at the Frost Giant he fought on the airship. Is it possible for Roy to have the Rock Throwing and Fling Ally feats from Races of Stone? He meets the strength requirement but would need Powerful Build or some other way around the size requirement.

There are some pretty heavy restrictions on this, though, based on information already gathered by the Character Sheet thread:

- Roy only has two free feat slots. Thus, he can't take another feat to duck the prereq, except by some weird Otyugh Hole exception.
- Roy is known to be a single class fighter.
- He is level 9 during that encounter, so he'd need to be able to take Rock Throwing by level 8.

For simplicity, assume Dark Chaos Shuffle is unavailable (I think it requires Evil alignment anyway?), and "use Enlarge Person until levelup, then get rid of it somehow" won't work. If it helps, by level 9, Roy's feats definitely include Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Weapon Focus (Greatsword), and Weapon Specialization (Greatsword). He also has at least one of Improved Unarmed Strike or Combat Expertise, and may have Improved Sunder, Improved Disarm, or Improved Grapple. He can't trade bonus feats for ACFs or substitution levels, but is free to take some on featless levels.

I think this basically leaves "a permanent magic item that gives him Powerful Build", so ... does such a thing exist?

[JNAProductions]

That assumes that Rich bothered to map it exactly to 3.5, rather than just doing what's good for the story.

[emeraldstreak]

Few people knows this, but Roy has a level of Martial Monk.

[weckar]

- Roy only has two free feat slots
Show me the canon!

[Jormengand]

I'm pretty sure you can do this (throwing people, not ignoring size prerequisites) with martial study to steal a maneuver, but I'm not going to check through all the maneuvers to find out which one it is (though due to his low IL, it couldn't be a very high-level maneuver).

[Darrin]

I think this basically leaves "a permanent magic item that gives him Powerful Build", so ... does such a thing exist?

Strongarm Bracers (MIC) gives about half the effect of "Powerful Build" (the wield larger weapons portion), but doesn't give an actual size increase. There are magic items that increase size, such as the Belt of Growth (MIC), and there may be a magic item that can grant Rock Throwing as a giant (I think there might be a variation of the Gauntlets/Girdle of Giant Strength doing something like that in a previous edition) but that's not really what you're looking for. If it was a magic item, then I think we'd see that explicitly mentioned in the strip.

The other thing to keep in mind is Rich sticks almost exclusively to Core material. It's exceedingly rare that he includes or mentions anything outside of that, so almost everything you see in the strip is 99% "vanilla" D&D.

That being said... it's possible Roy was just using the Core rules in an unusual way. Core doesn't really have any explicit rules that deal with picking up or throwing creatures, but it does define things like how your Str determines how much you can lift ("Max Press"). A skeleton doesn't weigh as much as a person, so it shouldn't be all that hard for Roy to make a Grapple check and then bench press Xykon over his head (another Grapple check or opposed Str roll, maybe?).

Looking at the comic... Xykon is monologueing, and doesn't appear to be aware of Roy coming up behind him, so it looks like Roy gets in an unarmed strike without an AoO. Xykon's head pops off... which could be Roy's player rolled a crit, and the DM thought it might be funny to decapitate the lich. Roy then grapples the skull and Xykon's body, because... uh... he's got at least one iterative attack left? I'm not sure... it's likely that Roy's player said "I want to grab the skull!" after it fell off, the DM called for a Grapple check, which then resulted in the time-honored "Grapple Ritual": the DM and players digging through the PHB/SRD, scratching their heads, and stammering at each other about what all this gibberish means. For example:

"A skull is a tiny object with an AC of 12, but it's got no Dex score and is immobile so... Touch AC is... 7?"
"Wait, the jaw can move, so can it hop around to defend itself?"
"But it's got no arms, so how can it make an opposed grapple check?"
"If it's just an object, then can't I just pick it up with a move action?"
"Well... wait, no, didn't you already use a move action to move up and start the grapple?"
"But if I'm not actually grappling, can I combine the move with manipulating an object, like picking up the skull?"
"No, that has to be two move actions."
"But I can move and draw a sword, so why can't I pick up a skull?"
"If it was an ordinary skull, sure, but the lich can still hop around and bite your fingers, right?"
"I checked the Monster Manual and liches don't have a bite attack, just a touch attack, so no, he can't bite Roy's fingers."
"Wait, you said they get a touch attack. Roy touching the skull is the same as the skull touching Roy, right? The rules don't say you have to touch with a finger."

After about 10 minutes, this ends with the Ritual to End the Grapple Ritual: the DM announces, "Look, forget the Grapple rules. What do you want to do?"

Roy's player: "I want to throw the skull through the portal!"

DM: "Cool! Uh, make a Strength check."

Roy's player: "Can I throw his body through the portal as well?"

DM, who knows a Dramatic Ending when it drops in his lap: "Uh... sure! Roll."

Roy's player: "EIGHTEEN!"

DM: "You chuck Xykon's screaming skull and his skeletal body through the gate! There is a flash of magical energy and then the gate slams shut with a humongous BOOM!"

Belkar's player: "Wait... is that it? Did we win?"

[ATHATH]

Maybe it's a (refluffed?) bull rush attempt?

[unbeliever536]

Show me the canon!

It's based on the rules of the class & level thread, which sets his current level at 14 based on apparent attacks per round and a few other things. Based on other characters, the level that the OOTS gains in strip 12 is assumed to be their 9th, and the level in strip 121/122 is assumed to be 10th. His most recent feat was the effectively-explicitly-homebrewed Spellsplinter Maneuver. He's stated to have Weapon Specialization and Great Cleave during DCF. Endurance is based on him obviously not being fatigued after sleeping in armor, which he does in DCF. Improved Sunder is based on him breaking Thog's axe in the arena fight, Improved Unarmed Strike is based on his repeated use of unarmed strikes with no attacks of opportunity, Improved Grapple is based on him grabbing people and slamming them into stuff without AoOs, and Improved Disarm is based on him knocking away Greg's staff in the Godsmoot fight. Factor in prerequisites, and you're left with two open feat slots, but they can fall almost anywhere, since he's only known to have eight of the feats by level 9, and a level 9 fighter has ten feats.

It's not "canon" so much as "explaining canon as best we can within the rules of D&D 3.5 (and sometimes 3.0)". If there's no such explanation available, well, we'll live with that. But if there is a viable explanation, we want to know.

(Jormengand, thanks for the tip. Martial Study (Mighty Throw) is a possibility; it's a level 1 maneuver with no prereqs that lets you throw an enemy 10 feet with a touch attack and a trip attempt.)

[Jormengand]

(Jormengand, thanks for the tip. Martial Study (Mighty Throw) is a possibility; it's a level 1 maneuver with no prereqs that lets you throw an enemy 10 feet with a touch attack and a trip attempt.)

And on that day, for the first time ever, Tome of Battle actually solved a problem with a martial character. The bards, or at least one particular blond bard, sang of that day for all eternity.