Please help with Zealot Build

[Barstro]

I want do something I’ve never done; play a melee character.

Campaign being run
I think only one other member of my party reads this site and might not know who I am. But, just to try to minimize the chances of any of them finding it;
I’ll be playing in Eye-Ron Godz (introduces technerlogy and will have robbots (mindless, so Eternal Guardian will have limited impact without taking additional steps)). I know little about the campaign and very specifically DO NOT WANT TO. If anything I am planning is a horrible idea for a specific reason, just let me know that it will be horrible. “Kind of bad” is fine, I’ll deal with the puzzle of things no longer being idea.

Character idea caveats;
A) High Touch AC
B) High survivability
C) Help prevent party from taking damage
D) Really want to take advantage of Attacks of Opportunity.
E) Want to try critical hit fishing
Lessen min/max by starting with no stat lower than 10 before race

I am unsure what the rest of the party will be. I do not know if anyone will be taking a “healing” role or a caster/buffer role.


I decided to go with the Path of War Zealot with a dip in Swashbuckler (finesse weapon).

Zealot;
A) Dex build is not contrary to the class
B/D) Able to increase melee attack range, so can make attacks before enemy can even close the gap
C) Can redirect damage from a party member to himself
B) Can negate a lot of the damage
C) Counters can stop attacks against party members
B) Many different types of attack
Attacks increase party’s attack bonus

Swashbuckler
A) Made for Dex builds
B) Dodging Panache can end iteratives (but might never be used due to Zealot Counters)
B) Opportune Parry (and Riposte, I suppose) will give at least four more chances to negate attacks
D) Opportune Parry give more options for AoOs
E) Crits build Panache in order to use Opportune Parry
B) Charmed Life gives at least a +3 on saves three times a day (how many more would I need?)
A) “Free” Weapon Finesse so I can dump STR

Cost Benefit Analysis of dipping. (Expect campaign to end a little after 17th level)
Lose from Zealot
Martyrdom 6 (Automatically negate 10, then negate 6 instead of 5 per PP)
Metaphysical Transcendence
One conviction (will have ¾ of an extra from being halfling)
15 or so Power Points
One Maneuver and one retrained Maneuver Known, One Maneuver Readied
One Fort and One Will Save
Two-level delay on most Zealot abilities

Decent swap by dipping Swashbuckler
Weapon Finesse for free
Still get the high level Maneuvers and Stances, just fewer (Practiced Initiator)

Add by having Swashbucker 2
Extra uses for Attacks of Opportunity
+3 Reflex Save
+CHA to saves 3/day
Could use Weapon Finesse with all one-handed piercing weapons

Initial thoughts (if only I had enough feats);
Start with a piercing polearm wielded in one hand
After the additional reach is no longer needed, switch to rapier
But, after I worked out all my Maneuvers (not really set in stone, but pretty close), I do not think I can get it to work.

Build basics;
Zealot 1, Swashbuckler 2, Zealot X
Halfling
8, 16, 10, 10, 10, 18
Protection Mission (Mainly for the reach, but the “free” counter is nice too)

Traits
Practiced Initiator (Combat) (Initiator level is +2 (negating up to a four level dip))
Mixed Blood (Heritage) (Only way I could find to count as Fey (see Feats))
Unorthodox Method (Regional) (Trade an unused discipline for Riven Hourglass (I will not rely of DM fiat to get it))
Helpful (Race) Increase Aid Another to +2
Campaign Trait
Drawback for Mixed Blood (Fey-Taken)

Feats
1) Additional Traits (mandatory)
2) Improved Critical – Rapier (cannot rely on a Keen Weapon)
3) Bodyguard (If I’m ever adjacent (shame it’s “adjacent” and not “melee range”)
4) Altered Life – Probably 8 extra Hit Points per level
5) Eternal Hourglass
6) Things to increase my ability to crit and hit AoOs

Convictions
1) Impulsive Reactions (Combat Reflexes)
2) Enduring Zeal
3) Improved Zeal

Stances
Vigilant Keeper’s Stance
Battle Mantra
Riven Hourglass Stance
Inescapable Grasp
Chronal Fission
God of the Hourglass

Maneuvers (not sure which will become swapped
1. Clockwatcher
2. Harmony-Shattering Strike
3. Ego-Wounding Strike
4. Strike the Hourglass
5. Flash of Insight
6. Adamant Will
7. Grasp of the Goddess
8. Time Skitter
9. Armory of the Goddess
10. Intruder’s End
11. Shackles of the Condemned
12. Relativity Burst
13. Overpowering Optimism
14. Inescapable Fetters
15. Perfect Distillation of the Soul
16. Beat the Clock
17. Heart of the Timelord
18. Crushing Rebuke
19. Oath of Eternity

Concerns and Questions

1) Opportune Parry becomes size dependent. Will it even be usable at high levels?
1b) Can Opportune Parry be failed, and still allow the use of a Counter? RAW implies it can “Unless otherwise noted, a deed can be performed multiple successive times, as long as the swashbuckler has or spends the required number of panache points to perform the deed”. If I can retry Opportune Parry, I should be able to do something that is a different action altogether (immediate vs. AoO).

2) As stated before, my plan was to;
a) Wield a polearm in one hand (Twin Thunder) and use Swashbuckler’s version of Weapon finesse (since it’s not a one-handed piercing weapon)
b) Later on, use Armory (even later; Perfect Soul) so it can be +3/+5 for free-ish.
c) Switch to Rapier once everyone is within that reach (still Armory) for the crit fishing.

But, I cannot find room for Twin Thunder in my build. I cannot even find room for Armor-Piercing so that I can get a first attack easily to active Zeal. I might give up Adamant Will for it, if it seems like the party will not benefit from the extra AC

Will a rapier be viable in this module? If so, should I just go with Inspired Blade Swashbuckler? (I’m leaning towards vanilla anyway).

How does Armory of the Goddess work? Is it a flat +3 weapon, or can I swap things for enhancements? (the mind blade sentence confuses me).

That's it for now. I'm sure I'll have more questions soon.

[Castilonium]

First, good on you for being so detailed and clear about what your goals are. That makes it easier to help you :smallsmile:

Second, I have an incredibly lengthy guide for Zealots in my signature. It covers all fighting styles including finesse melee, dips like swashbuckler, and every discipline and maneuver in the game, analyzed specifically for Zealots.

Now for your questions!


1) Opportune Parry becomes size dependent. Will it even be usable at high levels?
You'll be fine. Zealots have excellent accuracy because of full BAB and Zeal. Attack bonus scales faster in Pathfinder than AC does, and Opportune Parry is a great defense.

1b) Can Opportune Parry be failed, and still allow the use of a Counter? RAW implies it can “Unless otherwise noted, a deed can be performed multiple successive times, as long as the swashbuckler has or spends the required number of panache points to perform the deed”. If I can retry Opportune Parry, I should be able to do something that is a different action altogether (immediate vs. AoO).
Yes, you can use a counter maneuver if you fail your opportune parry.


2) As stated before, my plan was to;
a) Wield a polearm in one hand (Twin Thunder) and use Swashbuckler’s version of Weapon finesse (since it’s not a one-handed piercing weapon)
b) Later on, use Armory (even later; Perfect Soul) so it can be +3/+5 for free-ish.
c) Switch to Rapier once everyone is within that reach (still Armory) for the crit fishing.

But, I cannot find room for Twin Thunder in my build. I cannot even find room for Armor-Piercing so that I can get a first attack easily to active Zeal. I might give up Adamant Will for it, if it seems like the party will not benefit from the extra AC

Will a rapier be viable in this module? If so, should I just go with Inspired Blade Swashbuckler? (I’m leaning towards vanilla anyway).
Yes, a rapier will be fine, and you should use Inspired Blade for 1 more panache. Or you could grab a Cracked Opalescent White Pyramid Ioun Stone (AKA a COWPIS) to use a particular exotic weapon for only 1500 gp. Good choices are Estoc and Elven Branched Spear. A Spiked Gauntlet or Armor Spikes are a good idea to have since they're piercing weapons that you'll always be wielding. Also, remember that you can activate Zeal by using Aid Another, not just by hitting with a strike.


How does Armory of the Goddess work? Is it a flat +3 weapon, or can I swap things for enhancements? (the mind blade sentence confuses me).
It's just a flat +3 weapon. If you don't have the mind blade class feature, ignore the stuff about mind blades.

Now, let's talk about your build in general!

Crit fishing isn't very good on Zealots. Crit fishers want to have as many attacks per round as possible. That means two weapon fighting and using full attacks. A Zealot's playstyle is best at using Aid Another as a move action and a strike maneuver as a standard action every round. That means you'll only get one attack per round, not counting AoOs. So you want more panache? Buy a few Plumes of Panache (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/m-p/plume-of-panache/) and equip an unspent one after every encounter.

I also don't recommend getting Improved Critical. You can use that feat slot for better things like Pikeman's Training (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats/pikemans-training-combat/). Now you don't have to worry about Twin Thunder stance. You can simply fight with your Lucerne Hammer or Elven Branched Spear. When enemies get adjacent to you, either 5 foot step back and poke them with your reach weapon, or poke them with your Armor Spikes. No need to spend any sort of action switching weapons or stances.

There's no point in getting 2 levels of Swashbuckler. Just 1 level is good. Spending an entire level just for an ability as underwhelming as Charmed Life isn't worth it. Instead, try Warlord (Privateer) 1, Barbarian (Primal Disciple + Savage Technologist) 1, Bard (Rubato) 1, Bloodrager (Urban Bloodrager) 1, or Monk (Master of Many Styles + Kata Master) 1. Look at the dipping section of my guide for detailed explanations of what each of these things give you. Since you want more panache in particular, you'll probably want Monk out of all those choices.

Final note: Remember that you can use the Halfling FCB to get 1/4th of a conviction. That means extra feats via Combat Conviction and Psionic Conviction. I also highly recommend getting a psicrystal and learning how to use Echoes of Steel to maximum effect. Echoing certain boosts, counters, and laser beam strikes to your psicrystal can effectively increase your action economy.

[Barstro]

Second, I have an incredibly lengthy guide for Zealots in my signature. It covers all fighting styles including finesse melee, dips like swashbuckler, and every discipline and maneuver in the game, analyzed specifically for Zealots.
I have read your guide. That’s why I have so few questions.


you should use Inspired Blade for 1 more panache.
In and of itself, that seems a poor reason.


Or you could grab a Cracked Opalescent White Pyramid Ioun Stone (AKA a COWPIS) to use a particular exotic weapon for only 1500 gp. Good choices are Estoc and Elven Branched Spear. A Spiked Gauntlet or Armor Spikes are a good idea to have since they're piercing weapons that you'll always be wielding.
While that would grant reach and still hit adjacent, the chance of regaining panache is cut in half. I’ll assume this suggestion was in lieu of Swashbuckler entirely. To that end, I agree. But it is a bit outside of my concept.


Also, remember that you can activate Zeal by using Aid Another, not just by hitting with a strike.
I had forgotten. However, I expect to need to move in the first round, so I would not have a move action available in that first round and my party would lose out on one round of bonuses.


Crit fishing isn't very good on Zealots…you'll only get one attack per round, not counting AoOs..
I think I’m ok with that. It will still work out to one every four attacks (assuming confirmation). Well, less, considering the module.


I also don't recommend getting Improved Critical. You can use that feat slot for better things like Pikeman's Training (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats/pikemans-training-combat/).
That requires a shield. I do not see my character with a shield. I might change my mind later in the game, though.


There's no point in getting 2 levels of Swashbuckler. Just 1 level is good. Spending an entire level just for an ability as underwhelming as Charmed Life isn't worth it. Instead, try Warlord (Privateer) 1, Barbarian (Primal Disciple + Savage Technologist) 1, Bard (Rubato) 1, Bloodrager (Urban Bloodrager) 1, or Monk (Master of Many Styles + Kata Master) 1. Look at the dipping section of my guide for detailed explanations of what each of these things give you. Since you want more panache in particular, you'll probably want Monk out of all those choices.
Nice ideas, but most of the benefits are outside of what I want this particular character to do.

Could you explain your Monk statement? By my reading, Panache and Luck create a double pool (3+3=6), but Panache and Panache is still just a single Panache (3+3=3)


Final note: Remember that you can use the Halfling FCB to get 1/4th of a conviction. .
Of course.


I also highly recommend getting a psicrystal and learning how to use Echoes of Steel to maximum effect. Echoing certain boosts, counters, and laser beam strikes to your psicrystal can effectively increase your action economy.
Sadly, again, while I consider this to be the correct thing to do, it is outside of my concept.

[Barstro]

Does learning a discipline from one class allow the PC to learn maneuvers for that discipline as he advances in a second class?

Can my character take a level in Stalker to gain access to Riven Hourglass and use that as he advances Zealot (instead of using Unorthodox method)?

That would save a trait, possibly save a feat because of that, and gain Stalker Critical Edge.

[Barstro]

Does learning a discipline from one class allow the PC to learn maneuvers for that discipline as he advances in a second class?

Can my character take a level in Stalker to gain access to Riven Hourglass and use that as he advances Zealot (instead of using Unorthodox method)?

The ONLY thing I've seen that even attempts to address the above question is "Tome of Battle for Dummies"


Combining Martial Adepts: The utility of combining multiple Initiating classes bears mentioning. This allows you to more easily meet the prerequisites for high level maneuvers by using the dipped class to choose maneuvers in a shared discipline. Normally this means combining Warblade with one of the other two classes, since Crusader and Swordsage enjoy very little discipline overlap. For example, a primarily Warblade character focused on Iron Heart and White Raven can use a single level in Swordsage to take low-level Diamond Mind and Tiger Claw maneuvers, allowing him to choose higher level Diamond Mind and Tiger Claw maneuvers that he would otherwise not qualify for with his later Warblade levels.

But, even THAT example is giving the Warblade disciplines he already knew.

All other discussion about mulitclassing PoW classes is "manifester level" or each class and recovery of maneuvers.

I'll ask again, to see if I can get any insight;

PC is Stalker 1 (access to Riven Hourglass) and then takes all levels in Zealot. Does the PC have access to Riven Hourglass for all Zealot levels?

Thanks

[Elricaltovilla]

The ONLY thing I've seen that even attempts to address the above question is "Tome of Battle for Dummies"



But, even THAT example is giving the Warblade disciplines he already knew.

All other discussion about mulitclassing PoW classes is "manifester level" or each class and recovery of maneuvers.

I'll ask again, to see if I can get any insight;

PC is Stalker 1 (access to Riven Hourglass) and then takes all levels in Zealot. Does the PC have access to Riven Hourglass for all Zealot levels?

Thanks

No. You don't get Riven Hourglass maneuvers from levels in a class that doesn't give you access to Riven Hourglass.

[Barstro]

No. You don't get Riven Hourglass maneuvers from levels in a class that doesn't give you access to Riven Hourglass.

Darn.

Ok, thanks. That shuts down a major branch of my decision tree.

[exelsisxax]

Darn.

Ok, thanks. That shuts down a major branch of my decision tree.

You can't use zealot maneuvers known/readied for RH maneuvers, but they will boost your IL for the purposes of stalker max maneuver level and the maneuvers known replacements. If you DO get RH on your zealot, maneuvers known is shared across all classes for prerequisites, so you can use stalker known to qualify for zealot-known maneuvers.

[Barstro]

If you DO get RH on your zealot, maneuvers known is shared across all classes for prerequisites, so you can use stalker known to qualify for zealot-known maneuvers.

Irrelevant to this character, since he would only ever have one level of Stalker, but good to know for the future. Thanks

[Barstro]

Looks like I'm doing Swashbuckler 1, Zealot x. Still not sure if I want vanilla Swashbuckler or Inspired Blade. Now I'm leaning towards Inspired Blade, but it will depend on how my feats work out and if I can fit dex-to-polearms early in the build.

Anyway; which stat should I boost more? Dex or Cha?

Thanks

[Castilonium]

Anyway; which stat should I boost more? Dex or Cha?
If you think that you're going to be the target of the most attacks out of your party, boost dex for higher AC and attack rolls with opportune parry. If you think your GM will regularly target your allies, boost cha for more PP and higher save DCs. Impulsive Reactions forces you to use cha instead of dex for your bonus AoOs.

For your build, Dex = more tanky; Cha = more supporty.


Could you explain your Monk statement? By my reading, Panache and Luck create a double pool (3+3=6), but Panache and Panache is still just a single Panache (3+3=3)
From the way it's written, I'm really not sure, sorry :smallfrown:. I don't see why a GM would disallow Panache + Panache stacking, though.

[Barstro]

Impulsive Reactions forces you to use cha instead of dex for your bonus AoOs.

Thank you, I'd forgotten that fact after I started considering a more Dex focused build. But I think it would be 6 AoO per round instead of 9. Might not matter.

In the end, it's whether I take the conviction or the feat. Sort of the same thing.

[Barstro]

Hopefully my last question, then.

Traits (get only one);
I require Unorthodox Method to enter Riven Hourglass.
I require Practiced Initiator to get Level 9 Maneuvers (we end at level 17)

Option A;
Take Additional Traits Feat to get Helpful and Mixed Blood (fey). Then spend a Feat later on for Altered Life (+100 HP by the end)

Option B;
Take a Drawback for just one of those (not sure which). This leaves me with two more Feats

Option C;
Neither of those.

Any thoughts?

[exelsisxax]

Hopefully my last question, then.

Traits (get only one);
I require Unorthodox Method to enter Riven Hourglass.
I require Practiced Initiator to get Level 9 Maneuvers (we end at level 17)

Option A;
Take Additional Traits Feat to get Helpful and Mixed Blood (fey). Then spend a Feat later on for Altered Life (+100 HP by the end)

Option B;
Take a Drawback for just one of those (not sure which). This leaves me with two more Feats

Option C;
Neither of those.

Any thoughts?

C: join the lords of the wheel martial tradition and switch something out for RH without using any real build resources.

[Barstro]

C: join the lords of the wheel martial tradition and switch something out for RH without using any real build resources.

As stated in my first post, I cannot go that route. Otherwise, I'd have no need for my question. :smallwink:

[exelsisxax]

As stated in my first post, I cannot go that route. Otherwise, I'd have no need for my question. :smallwink:

I can't see where you did. Why can't you, by the way? does the DM just want tighter restrictions on discipline access?

[DMVerdandi]

Just an off note, if you are not going to be using a shield, what say you about using an estoc as your primary weapon?
Essentially a two handed rapier. Can still be finessed, and the damage is a bit better.

[Barstro]

I can't see where you did. Why can't you, by the way? does the DM just want tighter restrictions on discipline access?

You are correct. It was a post in another thread I made. Sorry.

I want the tighter restrictions. This is a bit of an exercise in "best I can make within the confines of certain caveats". Also, I feel that my character's motivation in life in contrary to the Lords of the Wheel philosophy.

[Barstro]

Just an off note, if you are not going to be using a shield, what say you about using an estoc as your primary weapon?
Essentially a two handed rapier. Can still be finessed, and the damage is a bit better.

I would like to use Swashbuckler's Opportune Parry. PC could not do that with a two-handed weapon. All my other reasons are even less logical than that.:smallredface:

[exelsisxax]

I would like to use Swashbuckler's Opportune Parry. PC could not do that with a two-handed weapon. All my other reasons are even less logical than that.:smallredface:

He phrased poorly and you leapt to conclusions: the estoc is basically a finessable bastard sword. 2d4 18x2 profile. When you are proficient with it you can finesse. With proficiency, it is hands-down better than a rapier by a lot, only problem is getting it without the exorbitant price of a feat.

Why do you think 2-handing something bars you from opportune parry/riposte anyway? The ability has no requirements beyond its function (using an AoO, making an attack roll, etc).

[Barstro]

He phrased poorly and you leapt to conclusions: the estoc is basically a finessable bastard sword. 2d4 18x2 profile. When you are proficient with it you can finesse. With proficiency, it is hands-down better than a rapier by a lot, only problem is getting it without the exorbitant price of a feat.

Why do you think 2-handing something bars you from opportune parry/riposte anyway? The ability has no requirements beyond its function (using an AoO, making an attack roll, etc).

True. It would, as two-handed, not allow the PC to recover panache, and that was sort of the deal breaker (and one I should have expressly stated). I'd also argue that if one is strictly looking at a rapier vs. estoc for a Swashbuckler, it's a two-feat difference since Inspired Blade gives Weapon Focus (rapier) as a bonus feat.

I had been wondering about a single level dip in Fighter for other reasons and now thought I could get it for exotic proficiency, but even they do not have it.

So (since I'm starting to consider shields again), would you suggest;
Inspired Blade with Rapier
Vanilla with Estoc and COWPIS (Cost of a feat (Weapon Focus) and 1,500gp) To be honest, I'm not greatly concerned with doing damage; more with landing hits themselves and getting AoO.

[exelsisxax]

True. It would, as two-handed, not allow the PC to recover panache, and that was sort of the deal breaker (and one I should have expressly stated). I'd also argue that if one is strictly looking at a rapier vs. estoc for a Swashbuckler, it's a two-feat difference since Inspired Blade gives Weapon Focus (rapier) as a bonus feat.

I had been wondering about a single level dip in Fighter for other reasons and now thought I could get it for exotic proficiency, but even they do not have it.

So (since I'm starting to consider shields again), would you suggest;
Inspired Blade with Rapier
Vanilla with Estoc and COWPIS (Cost of a feat (Weapon Focus) and 1,500gp) To be honest, I'm not greatly concerned with doing damage; more with landing hits themselves and getting AoO.

A 1 level dip in Myrmidon fighter gets you a bundle of backup maneuvers, a grit pool(remember, stacks with panache!) with better recovery than an inspired blade, and some meh deeds - and everything else a fighter gets. The first thing they lose is 2nd level bonus feat. It's not good enough to replace inspired blade as a 1-level, but the benefits are significant. It does stack with a bunch of other archetypes(lore warden?) so there might be some combination to make it better than parry/riposte and free finesse.

Seriously though, i don't know why the swashbuckler dip is a thing. If you want to maximize AoO, you use a reach weapon, fullstop. Swashbucklers suck for this. You are losing SO MUCH from zealot progression, tying yourself in knots over traits and feats to get back on track, and getting virtually no synergy in return. There's a 1pp and a PoW feat for finessing polearms, a PoW feat for attacking adjacent with reach weapons, a PoW feat for sword&spearing, I can't find any reason in your OP for actually doing this. Zealots don't need cha to saves or parries because they don't sit there getting beat on - they go out and make enemies die through support or direct action immediately.

[Barstro]

Seriously though, i don't know why the swashbuckler dip is a thing. If you want to maximize AoO, you use a reach weapon, fullstop. Swashbucklers suck for this. You are losing SO MUCH from zealot progression, tying yourself in knots over traits and feats to get back on track, and getting virtually no synergy in return. There's a 1pp and a PoW feat for finessing polearms, a PoW feat for attacking adjacent with reach weapons, a PoW feat for sword&spearing, I can't find any reason in your OP for actually doing this. Zealots don't need cha to saves or parries because they don't sit there getting beat on - they go out and make enemies die through support or direct action immediately.

I agree.

But my reason for the thread isn't "make me the best Zealot". Were that the case, I would be making a finesse reach Zealot (might not be best, but it's the best that fits how I want to play). Instead, I wanted to play melee for once in my life, greatly prefer the concept of a rapier to one-handing a polearm.

I have embraced the idea of favoring Dex to Cha. Given that, +10 to saves three times per day is reduced to +3 and no longer seems worth it at all. I'm down to a single dip that I think meshes well with my character concept.

Thank you again for all the ideas and tips. You helped me free up a level and two feats.

[shawshank]

You should consider ways to avoid being flat-footed as much as possible. Defensive Strategist if applicable or finding a way to get uncanny dodge quickly. Remember, you can not use an immediate action to counter while flat-footed.

[Barstro]

You should consider ways to avoid being flat-footed as much as possible. Defensive Strategist if applicable or finding a way to get uncanny dodge quickly. Remember, you can not use an immediate action to counter while flat-footed.
Thank you. I now see that Clockwatcher would not prevent being flatfooted in the first regular round (as illogical as that seems to me).

Now I need to consider Additional Traits again to pick up Defensive Strategist.