Why are vows Exalted?

[weckar]

It's an odd thing that's been bothering me for a while, but why are the Vows Exalted feats? Can non-Good people not make such divine promises?
If anything, they feel like they should be a super-lawful thing rather than a super-good thing, no?

[Jormengand]

Because Wizards are bad at game design.

[Mordaedil]

I don't think that's true at all. The reason has to do with their basis in real life, which are vows taken by particularly pious people, and never undertaken by non-benevolent people.

[weckar]

Piety does not equate to goodness, though. Following Doctrine to the letter as such requires is again more Lawful than Good. And the Evil Gods surely have quite pious clerics, too? Why can't they vow to abstain from certain pleasures to appease them?

[Ignimortis]

Because Wizards are bad at game design.

They have their ups and downs, which is more than can be said for some other people making RPGs.
On topic - vows are Exalted because they represent adherence to some facet of the definition of Good of BoED, which means that in the context of that book, they have to be Exalted. In short, they're Exalted because they're for Good characters because they're Exalted. BoED is not the best written book in the lineup, and has problems with some questionable perspectives on Good and Evil. So if you understand them differently, you can change vows in your game if you want to - there's nothing particularly Good about not touching corpses, but it does work as a religious tenet, which is more Law than Good, IMO.

[ayvango]

BoED, BoVD, FC1, FC2 lack concise effort. Entire Evil - Good confrontation could be more colourful, if designers consult with each other before publishing the books. So the could designate common conception, their reflections, opposites and interaction between them. If MM was as schizophrenic as BoED/BoVD pair, then demons would has DR/good and angels DR/cold iron, chromatic dragons has breath su and metallic breath is ex and so on.

There are ton of opportunities to make rules incoherent. And while SRD took large effort to make rules concise, BoED and BoVD lacks it. Therefore there are many WTFs in them.

[noob]

Why not.
Good is not the opposite of evil.
So any form of symmetry is intrinsically weird.
I would not have considered it was nonsense if angels had dr/cold iron and demons dr/good.
Or if there was no outsiders of a given alignment.(example: not having any lawful good outsiders would not have been a problem)

[Crake]

Piety does not equate to goodness, though. Following Doctrine to the letter as such requires is again more Lawful than Good. And the Evil Gods surely have quite pious clerics, too? Why can't they vow to abstain from certain pleasures to appease them?

Piety in a dnd world maybe not, where there are religions that are explicitly evil. In the real world every religion is subjectively good to it's members, and thus all members of a religion who are pious are seen by other members of that religion as being good. Since the vows hold a basis on real world religion, and people who take vows in real life are seen as good, the vows are therefore associated with good.

[Florian]

It's an odd thing that's been bothering me for a while, but why are the Vows Exalted feats? Can non-Good people not make such divine promises?
If anything, they feel like they should be a super-lawful thing rather than a super-good thing, no?

*Sigh*

We´re talking about a game with objective morality and alignments as active cosmic forces, right?

The example Vows we have, chain a character to the forces of Good, representing them in some way.
Do we lack Neutral or Evil counterparts? Yes.

[weckar]

I suppose you have a point. I just don't see how a LN person could not hold to many of these same principles. The monk swearing off vices to attain perfection is but one example where the feat still fits, save for the Exalted prerequisite. And that is not even including the many who would take such vows as penance and have yet to reach Exalted status.

[Pleh]

Exalted vows represent a devotion to altruism in a world where being a murderhobo is arguably a neutral baseline.

I accept arguments that it maybe ought to be specifically Lawful Good, but not Lawful Neutral. Altruism is a primary concern of the Good side of the cosmos. LN characters that devote themselves to altruism have essentially aligned themselves to Good agenda. Birds of a feather. If they weren't good before, they soon will be.

[Necroticplague]

The example Vows we have, chain a character to the forces of Good, representing them in some way.
Do we lack Neutral or Evil counterparts? Yes.

Actually, there is an Evil counterpart. The Deformity line of feats is thematically and mechanically very similar to the Vow line of feats.


Exalted vows represent a devotion to altruism in a world where being a murderhobo is arguably a neutral baseline.

I accept arguments that it maybe ought to be specifically Lawful Good, but not Lawful Neutral. Altruism is a primary concern of the Good side of the cosmos. LN characters that devote themselves to altruism have essentially aligned themselves to Good agenda. Birds of a feather. If they weren't good before, they soon will be.

Except that most of the vows aren't any devotion to altruism. Their a devotion to some form of abstinence. I really fail to see how 'touch no dead thing', 'don't do drugs', and 'don't have sex' are in any way altruistic in nature, given how their practice doesn't inherently help anyone. This argument holds some ground for Poverty, Nonviolence, and Peace, though.

[Inevitability]

Actually, there is an Evil counterpart. The Deformity line of feats is thematically and mechanically very similar to the Vow line of feats.

An even more obvious counterpart are Unspeakable Vow and its follow-up feats. They can be found in Drow of the Underdark.

[Pleh]

Except that most of the vows aren't any devotion to altruism. Their a devotion to some form of abstinence. I really fail to see how 'touch no dead thing', 'don't do drugs', and 'don't have sex' are in any way altruistic in nature, given how their practice doesn't inherently help anyone.

It's very indirect, to be sure. The argument for it claims that, while we can't mandate purity in all its forms for all people, it is still the idea that everyone ought to be striving to these standards.

Sex and drugs incapacitate moral thought (so the argument goes) by using carnal craving to overwhelm good sense. Dead things, in addition to just being unsanitary, have a similar effect, either evoking our hunger response or the response to mourn someone we loved and lost (an attachment that can become unhealthy).

In essence, it's altruism of the self, much like how our culture almost reveres at times the practices of dieting and exercise.

[atemu1234]

An even more obvious counterpart are Unspeakable Vow and its follow-up feats. They can be found in Drow of the Underdark.


Except that most of the vows aren't any devotion to altruism. Their a devotion to some form of abstinence. I really fail to see how 'touch no dead thing', 'don't do drugs', and 'don't have sex' are in any way altruistic in nature, given how their practice doesn't inherently help anyone. This argument holds some ground for Poverty, Nonviolence, and Peace, though.

Ultimately, it seems like a few of these could have evil versions, though typically they need a bit of work. Can't see much for Nonviolence, Peace and Poverty though. (Paladin of Slaughter, maybe?)

[Falontani]

I was messing about with homebrew "evil" versions of these a bit a while back. I came up with the "vow" of greed. It is the vow of poverty, except you must keep every penny you ever earn and willingly giving your money away for any reason broke the "vow". As for Vow of Peace's alternate I came up with a "Vow" of War. Where peace was never an answer. Your walking through a village, sack the village, slaughter everyone, leave it in ruins.

Obviously they need some work, but they were just some ideas I had before I decided that creating balanced versions would be vastly more work than I was interested in devoting towards the idea.

[emeraldstreak]

Honestly, they are exalted because at the time Wizards wanted something with that exact name in the line.

[Covenant12]

Vow of Peace/Non-violence as exalted/good I'll buy. Not killing even when it makes perfect sense to kill them feels like a good(tm) thing to me.

Vow of abstinence/chastity/obedience/purity? Sounds like a lawful adherence to cultural values. There is outright a (chaotic) exalted good godish figure that says if there's a mutual sexual attraction you should have sex. Very respectful honest sex between equals, but still. Many good leaning cultures would find these vows baffling if not outright stupid, and I have a hard time arguing.

Vow of Poverty can be argued to be an extreme good. Sacrificing possessions for the needy can be argued to be good, so in extreme is exalted good. Not perfect, but more logical than D&D's alignment system in general, so fine.

[Dimers]

In the real world every religion is subjectively good to it's members, and thus all members of a religion who are pious are seen by other members of that religion as being good.

Not at all! I can give against-GitP-policy examples from real-world religions where the layity found certain pious individuals cruel, insane or painfully blind to earthly concerns. And I don't mean examples from thousands of years of history, I mean stuff that happened to and around me within the last thirty years.


Honestly, they are exalted because at the time Wizards wanted something with that exact name in the line.

Heh. :smallsmile:

I agree, OP, many such vows should be considered super-lawful rather than super-good.

[Knaight]

Piety in a dnd world maybe not, where there are religions that are explicitly evil. In the real world every religion is subjectively good to it's members, and thus all members of a religion who are pious are seen by other members of that religion as being good. Since the vows hold a basis on real world religion, and people who take vows in real life are seen as good, the vows are therefore associated with good.

Yes, because no religion has more than one sect that get along poorly. That would be ridiculous.

[atemu1234]

Yes, because no religion has more than one sect that get along poorly. That would be ridiculous.

Yeah, who would complain about another sect of a religion? Especially enough to write down a comprehensive list and nail it to a temple's door...

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Yes, because no religion has more than one sect that get along poorly. That would be ridiculous.They have some very creepy sects, honestly.

[Mordaedil]

Piety does not equate to goodness, though. Following Doctrine to the letter as such requires is again more Lawful than Good. And the Evil Gods surely have quite pious clerics, too? Why can't they vow to abstain from certain pleasures to appease them?

Besides what Crake said, evil deities already get from their pious worshippers what comes the most natural to them, and all they demand is a sacrifice or other. The point of the vows is to uphold to some higher form of accepted goodness, which abstracted could be attributed to lawfulness, but ultimately doesn't because lawful also includes evil and the vows crack the closer south you come.

[icefractal]

Besides what Crake said, evil deities already get from their pious worshippers what comes the most natural to them, and all they demand is a sacrifice or other. The point of the vows is to uphold to some higher form of accepted goodness, which abstracted could be attributed to lawfulness, but ultimately doesn't because lawful also includes evil and the vows crack the closer south you come.Many of them don't though.

Vow of Abstinence - Fits LE as well as it does LG. Would work fine for Hextor followers ("Before you can be the master of others, you must be the absolute master of yourself.")
Vow of Chastity - Would fit in fine with a god of death (the "everyone should be dead" kind). The urge to reproduce just leads to more filthy creeping life around the place. Better to ignore it.
Vow of Obedience - Really fits well with Hextor.
Vow of Purity - This would fit with pretty much any alignment; there are even some chaotic deities this would make sense for.

Vow of Poverty has a Good tilt with the "donate it to charity" factor, but if it was instead "throw it away, you must prove yourself through personal strength alone, not toys", then it would fit with a number of gods all over the alignment spectrum. And if it was "hoard it all as gold and gems, don't give away one coin even to save your life", then it would fit well with a Greed-centric deity.

[Ashtagon]

If the Vows were purely about following rules, and if lawful alignment was understand to be about following a personal set of rules, then I suppose it would make sense.

However, the vows are a set of personal rules intended (by the character taking them) to make them a Gooder person. And Lawful alignment isn't about personal rules; it's about a character's relationship (or lack of it) with wider society and how society should work.

[Mordaedil]

Many of them don't though.

Vow of Abstinence - Fits LE as well as it does LG. Would work fine for Hextor followers ("Before you can be the master of others, you must be the absolute master of yourself.")
Vow of Chastity - Would fit in fine with a god of death (the "everyone should be dead" kind). The urge to reproduce just leads to more filthy creeping life around the place. Better to ignore it.
Vow of Obedience - Really fits well with Hextor.
Vow of Purity - This would fit with pretty much any alignment; there are even some chaotic deities this would make sense for.

Vow of Poverty has a Good tilt with the "donate it to charity" factor, but if it was instead "throw it away, you must prove yourself through personal strength alone, not toys", then it would fit with a number of gods all over the alignment spectrum. And if it was "hoard it all as gold and gems, don't give away one coin even to save your life", then it would fit well with a Greed-centric deity.
This ignores the point of vows in the first place, which is denying yourself a a virtue of the average man to cleanse oneself of desires to reach nirvana. It's the problem with taking a logical perspective on a religious perspective. Take the same vows and see how they benefit a good service and you'll see that kinda don't serve their purposes, it is about denying oneself.

[Florian]

If the Vows were purely about following rules, and if lawful alignment was understand to be about following a personal set of rules, then I suppose it would make sense.

However, the vows are a set of personal rules intended (by the character taking them) to make them a Gooder person. And Lawful alignment isn't about personal rules; it's about a character's relationship (or lack of it) with wider society and how society should work.

I´d say that the authors of BoED and BoVD didn't have the faintest clue on how "objective morality" as represented by the alignment system actually works (and prolly stayed closer to their personal religious learnings...). We see that folly repeated, like all Good being buddy-buddy with one another, and so on.

Alignments are cosmic power sources and "aligning with one" should help tap into that power (ex: LG and Paladins, L and Monk abilities...). The kind of binding vow we´re discussing here should help a character getting closer "aligned" and thereby gain something thematically appropriate for it, but the execution is deeply flawed.

[Ashtagon]

I´d say that the authors of BoED and BoVD didn't have the faintest clue on how "objective morality" as represented by the alignment system actually works (and prolly stayed closer to their personal religious learnings...). We see that folly repeated, like all Good being buddy-buddy with one another, and so on.

Alignments are cosmic power sources and "aligning with one" should help tap into that power (ex: LG and Paladins, L and Monk abilities...). The kind of binding vow we´re discussing here should help a character getting closer "aligned" and thereby gain something thematically appropriate for it, but the execution is deeply flawed.

Exactly. And how do you align with one? By demonstrating your relationship with wider society. Your relationship with yourself has no bearing as far as these cosmic power sources are concerned.

[Caelestion]

I think people are missing the obvious answer - that some of the vows are based on observing the Seven Heavenly Virtues and avoiding the Seven Deadly Sins.

[Florian]

I think people are missing the obvious answer - that some of the vows are based on observing the Seven Heavenly Virtues and avoiding the Seven Deadly Sins.

That would be true if Alignments as Cosmic Forces would be based on our abrahamitic religious traditions, which they aren't.

[Caelestion]

Given that we also have saints, relics, holy martyrs, angels, fallen angels and even Dante's heaven and hell, why are we apparently drawing the line at exalted feats?

[weckar]

The whole feat line makes little sense in-universe anyway. You take Sacred Vow, and only at the earliest 3 levels later (weeks, months or years later) you find out/declare what that vow actually is.

[Pleh]

That would be true if Alignments as Cosmic Forces would be based on our abrahamitic religious traditions, which they aren't.


Given that we also have saints, relics, holy martyrs, angels, fallen angels and even Dante's heaven and hell, why are we apparently drawing the line at exalted feats?

Eh, I'd say the ideas are concurrent, not derivative. They evolved separately even if they share a few roots.

If it were derivative, there would be more work done to reflect the real world.

More of an "inspired by" rather than "based on." The game makers wanted to game-ify this aspect of our culture. Their work is okay: not stellar, but passable. Would have worked better if D&D morality had been more inclined to this kind of mechanic from the beginning, but it was never adequately defined for that.

[Necroticplague]

The whole feat line makes little sense in-universe anyway. You take Sacred Vow, and only at the earliest 3 levels later (weeks, months or years later) you find out/declare what that vow actually is.

Well, given the basic nature of exalted feats (you lose them if you commit any evil act), the Sacred Vow does have its own basic boilerplate. You just add more clauses to your Vow later.

[Florian]

The whole feat line makes little sense in-universe anyway. You take Sacred Vow, and only at the earliest 3 levels later (weeks, months or years later) you find out/declare what that vow actually is.

As were talking about a game and not a simulation: who cares?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The whole feat line makes little sense in-universe anyway. You take Sacred Vow, and only at the earliest 3 levels later (weeks, months or years later) you find out/declare what that vow actually is.Unless you're human. Or strongheart halfling. Which makes total sense, of course. :smallsigh:

[Knaight]

That would be true if Alignments as Cosmic Forces would be based on our abrahamitic religious traditions, which they aren't.

That doesn't mean that background ideas from the culture of the developers didn't seep into the game, which is where I'd assume they came from. The developers, specifically, had a high opinion of whatever particular holy orders with similar vows came to mind to them first, and thus they're Exalted. Alternately, the same sort of thing happened but pushed back a bit, where people writing source material had a high opinion of whatever particular holy orders with similar vows came to mind (which tends to vary between people), this source material established the holy vow of good people as a trope in fantasy separate but descended from religious sources, and this fantasy trope was imported into D&D.

[The Viscount]

The Vow feats presented in BoED are Exalted because they are vows made to Good aligned forces, which then grant you the benefit of the feat. This is why they are supernatural. As mentioned before, like the Deformity feats it's not the actual act itself that gives you the feat's benefits but the recognition by some sort of Good force.

The strongest support for my statement is found in Drow of the Underdark, where there are 4 Vile feats, all with Vow in the title. Like the Vow feats in BoED there's one entry prerequisite (which explicitly mentions service to Evil forces instead of Good) and then the rest each also require a special action to be performed to maintain the feat, and you lose the benefits if you do not perform.

[Necroticplague]

The Vow feats presented in BoED are Exalted because they are vows made to Good aligned forces, which then grant you the benefit of the feat. This is why they are supernatural.

Which raises the question as to why only Good aligned forces offer those particular Vows.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Which raises the question as to why only Good aligned forces offer those particular Vows.Because Good is Dumb.TM

[Mordaedil]

Which raises the question as to why only Good aligned forces offer those particular Vows.

Because evil has other values, and neutral has no values.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Because evil has other values, and neutral has no values.So you're saying that Neutral is even worse than Evil, because even Evil has standards.

[noob]

So you're sayig that Neutral is even worse than Evil, because even Evil has standards.
Neutral is about killing everything and harming as many things and people as possible(Or randomly).
Evil people is people ready to do a lot of things to get to their objectives.(and their objectives might actually improve the world but doing so at the cost of innocent lives or similar costs is bad)
(example: that chaotic evil person who wants to exit prison, become rich and powerful might be ready to kill the prison guards and set the prison on fire to escape(just like good aligned people))
I think paladins should get smite neutral instead of smite evil.
Neutral is the most evil alignment by far.
Then good and evil are equally bad but way less evil than neutral.
This is why I believe that when you have the choice between resurrecting a lich and a neutral wizard you should pick the lich
(I mean the lich is probably going to like you because you brought it back to undeath and a lich is probably more civilized than a neutral wizard: a lich might want to conquer the world while a neutral wizard wants to make the world stop being a place)

[Mordaedil]

So you're sayig that Neutral is even worse than Evil, because even Evil has standards.

Neutral is worse than evil because make up your damn minds already!

[Florian]

Because evil has other values, and neutral has no values.

That's a stupid interpretation of the alignments, but also showcases the same errors the authors frequently make: In a system with 9 distinct alignments formed by two axises, only being able to handle to G vs. E thingie, clumping them together to be one alignment, and discarding the L and C axis altogether. I can well imagine that this is how we need up with the 4E Alignment-chain (LG > G > N > E > CE, from "bestest eva to worst eva!")

[Mordaedil]

In Baldur's Gate, they presented alignments in a linear way too, with Lawful Good at top and Chaotic Evil at bottom, and yes, it isn't a very good way to interpret alignments.