Double Extension From Bard?

[Afgncaap5]

This is a question a friend had, and I'm having difficulty finding an answer for him: if a feat says that its effect is as if another feat had been applied to it, does the effect stack if you have both feats? Or are they considered "the same source" in that case and not subject to stacking? Or is this a case-by-case basis thing?

Specifically, we're looking at the bardic music feat Music of Making, which lets you swap in a usage of your bardic music for the day to increase the duration of a non-instantaneous Conjuration (Creation) spell as if the Extend Spell feat had been applied, but with no increase in level. We're trying to determine if a Bard can do that by RAW.

Personally, I think the limited number of Conjuration (Creation) spells for bards and the fact that it costs them two feat slots and a daily usage of a character class-based resource means that it's something I'd allow in my home games for any player who says "I just really, REALLY wanna be a bard who also builds things!", but I'm curious to know the official ruling on it.

[Crake]

If it's "as another feat" and that feat itself cannot be applied twice, then you indeed cannot apply it twice.

[VisitingDaGulag]

The above is actually wrong. The key word is "if". Try the simple Q&A next time.

Because the referenced feat has not actually been applied, it is free to work with the feat (extend in this case) when it is actually applied. Your player is correct and you couldn't find anything to contradict his interpretation because it is the correct one.

[Deophaun]

The above is actually wrong. The key word is "if". Try the simple Q&A next time.
No, Crake is correct. Let's do a simple run through.

Feat A cannot stack with itself.
Feature B acts as "if" A.

So let's see how A acts on Spell C:
Feat A is applied to Spell C
Feat A attempts to apply to Spell C, but Feat A is already in place.
Feat A fails to be applied.

Now, let's do this with Feature B.
Feature B is applied to Spell C.
Feat A attempts to apply to Spell C, but Feature B is already in place.
Feature B acts as "if" A, therefore Feat A is already in place.
Feat A fails to be applied.

Or maybe you prefer...
Feat A is applied to Spell C.
Feature B attempts to apply to Spell C, but Feat A is already in place.
Feature B acts as "if" A, therefore Feature B is already in place.
Feature B fails to be applied.

Whatever. If the feature acts as if it's something else, then it acts as if it's something else, as opposed to only acting as if it's something else in the manner most convenient to you.

[Necroticplague]

If something is 'as if' something else, its the same for all purposes unless said otherwise. So that Music of Making application is, for all intents and purposes except where it says otherwise, the same as if Extend Spell had been added. This would include not being able to add Extend again.

[Psyren]

+1 to Crake and Necrotic, you can't Extend something that has already been as-if-Extended.

[VisitingDaGulag]

3 failures in a row? That's okay. It's a subtle point.


Feature B acts as "if" A, therefore Feat A is already in place.This is the illogical step. Feat A is not in fact in place. It merely acts as if it were. Perhaps I should have not assumed some additional text was understood from my above comment. I always read the source material before replying. ECS57 does not say "as if this feat were [exactly] the Extend Spell feat." Instead it says "as if the Extend Spell feat had been applied." But alas, the Extend Spell feat has not been applied. It might function like it, but it hasn't. And since the Extend Spell feat has not been applied, it may be applied separately.

For instance, not every doubling of durations is the extend feat, although all doublings of a duration of a spell function the same (aka they function as if it were an application of the extend feat).

All right angles may be treated as if they are corners of squares. But all right angles are in fact not corners of shapes gauranteed to be squares. To get really pedantic, this is because squares have the one feature we are considering. But they also have other properties. Similarly, Music of Making has a property that functions as the Extend Feats' primary function. But it does has other, differing properties.

If you can't stack 2 squares but you can stack anything else, then you can stack a square and a right angle that functions like a square in a certain respect. Thus you can stack 2 right angles despite a restriction of not being able to stack squares.

[Deophaun]

3 failures in a row? That's okay. It's a subtle point.

This is the illogical step. Feat A is not in fact in place. It merely acts as if it were.
And that is right where this stops, because if it's acting as if it were, then it stops any attempt to apply the feat, because that's what the feat does as well. Done. Period. End of story.

You're trying to say that it acts as the feat except where it doesn't act as the feat, and that is entirely unsupported either in rules or basic logic.

[Afgncaap5]

The above is actually wrong. The key word is "if". Try the simple Q&A next time.

I did, actually. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22676187&postcount=706) Twice. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22706411&postcount=739) Both the original post, and the second post asking if people had forgotten it, were largely ignored.

[Psyren]

3 failures in a row? That's okay. It's a subtle point.

It's not actually, you're just wrong. Which makes your smug attitude even more amusing.