Multisubclassing

[Ivor_The_Mad]

Is it possible to multiclass within a class like 4 levels of open hand and 4 of drunken master. I mean why not? It would open up a whole new level to the game. If its not possible then how would you make it. What would be a good combination?

[HunterOfJello]

It's not currently possible within the rules. It's probably mostly fine to do though so long as a player isn't obviously trying to break the system (ex: 1 level in every cleric domain).

[Daphne]

Is it possible to multiclass within a class like 4 levels of open hand and 4 of drunken master.

No


I mean why not? It would open up a whole new level to the game.

The game wasn't designed with this in mind, look at the Fighter: you only get two uses of action surge at 17th level, you could get it by 4th level if this was allowed.

[nirurin]

Is it possible to multiclass within a class like 4 levels of open hand and 4 of drunken master. I mean why not? It would open up a whole new level to the game. If its not possible then how would you make it. What would be a good combination?

PRetty sure the answer is no, and that's probably because it would mess up progression on things like ASI's... If you were Open Hand 3 and Drunken Master 1, would you get the level 4 ASI for being Monk 4 in total?

If I was DM though I'd probably allow it, as long as you seperated them the same as if they were seperate Classes. So OH3/DM1 would not have any ASI's yet. And if you were 18/2 you wouldn't get the level 20 Monk capstone, etc etc.

Problem is, most things dont stack. So you wouldn't get Extra Attack twice, you wouldnt get any of the monk stuff like unarmored defence twice. So most of it would be a waste.

I've thought of this before as wizard though. Would be good to be say... an Abjurer Wizard 18, and have 2 levels of Bladesinger for a huge amount of survivability in a single caster.

[nirurin]

No



The game wasn't designed with this in mind, look at the Fighter: you only get two uses of action surge at 17th level, you could get it by 4th level if this was allowed.


Actually this wouldn't work like that, because the game already has a rule in place that says the same abilities don't stack. So being 2/2 fighter would only give you one action surge, the other is wasted. Same with Extra Attacks.

This is why the higher level Extra Attacks have numbers on them to differentiate them, so that they can then stack.

[Errata]

I mean why not?

It's not balanced for that and some of the subclass benefits are relatively frontloaded. In fact most stop giving any new features after a certain level, so there'd be zero reason for anyone to continue taking levels in those subclasses after the level in which they get their final subclass benefit. With normal multiclassing, there is normally a significant sacrifice in not receiving core features in one class by dipping into another, but with multisubclassing rules, presumably you'd progress normally in the core class features while getting the optimal benefits from multiple subclasses, so there is far less downside.

It does make sense, and it's something I've wanted to do before as well, but first you'd really have to go and redesign all the subclasses with that capability in mind, if you wanted to preserve any semblance of balance.

[MxKit]

If its not possible then how would you make it. What would be a good combination?

It's not possible, and for the reasons that other people have mentioned, I don't think you could actually say something like "oh, this character is a Monk 4/Monk 4" and try to do it that way.

I do think it should be completely possible to do, at least with DM buy-in to minimize cheese. But the way I'd do it is count the character as still Monk X, however many Monk levels they have overall, but simply have their next subclass feature be replaced with the earliest subclass feature of another subclass.

To take your example, the character would still be Monk 8, would still have the main class features of Monk 8, ie up through Evasion and Stillness of Mind and their lv8 ASI. But they would have the Open Hand Technique (from "4 levels of Open Hand") and instead of having Wholeness of Body, they'd have the Drunken Master's Bonus Proficiencies and Drunken Technique. If they wanted Wholeness of Body, they'd have to choose to take that at Monk 11, rather than Tipsy Sway or being able to pick up Tranquility or Drunkard's Luck at that point. And they'd never be able to reach either Quivering Palm or Intoxicated Frenzy.

I think that would cut down on the cheese of letting, say, a Fighter get multiple uses of Action Surge or a Rogue just get a billion different Expertises. You can't actually multiclass into the same class and double up on class features; it would make it all about the subclasses. And making it so that it works like multiclassing wrt delaying your subclass feature gains would keep someone from just picking and choosing the most powerful subclass features from every subclass so easily. DM would still have to think about what they'd want to let the player do, but it wouldn't be as big of a potential issue.


It's not balanced for that and some of the subclass benefits are relatively frontloaded. In fact most stop giving any new features after a certain level, so there'd be zero reason for anyone to continue taking levels in those subclasses after the level in which they get their final subclass benefit. With normal multiclassing, there is normally a significant sacrifice in not receiving core features in one class by dipping into another, but with multisubclassing rules, presumably you'd progress normally in the core class features while getting the optimal benefits from multiple subclasses, so there is far less downside.

Just wanted to edit to say I see what you're saying here, and this is why a DM would definitely have to think before allowing this, but I don't think too many of the subclasses are frontloaded compared to ones with strong features at late levels. I'd allow the Open Hand/Drunken Master multiclass, for example, because Quivering Palm is pretty well accepted as one of the big reasons to go Open Hand in the first place, while I might be more wary about allowing a Mastermind Rogue to go into Assassin unless I really trusted the player and their reasons for doing so. Similarly, a Fiend Patron Warlock dipping Hexblade would make me dubious, but the same Fiendlock wanting to go into Celestial could make for fun RP and I feel like they wouldn't be gaining as much from Celestial as they would from Hurl Through Hell.

[Vaz]

Actually this wouldn't work like that, because the game already has a rule in place that says the same abilities don't stack. So being 2/2 fighter would only give you one action surge, the other is wasted. Same with Extra Attacks.

This is why the higher level Extra Attacks have numbers on them to differentiate them, so that they can then stack.

No, it doesn't have a rule like that, but ou get everything and certain things stack in certain ways: re expertise or channel divinity. If another class got Pact Magic or Action Surge, there'd be issues.

[Errata]

I don't think too many of the subclasses are frontloaded compared to ones with strong features at late levels.

Bards get their absolute highest level subclass ability at level 14, and their second highest at level 6. So they could get 100% of the benefit of one subclass and still get 70% of another. Who wouldn't?

Clerics have around 10 domains to choose from, many of which get really cool abilities at level 1. Their highest level subclass ability is at 17, so they could get 3 more level 1 abilities on top of that. They get their second highest level subclass ability at 8. So they could take 2 subclasses to level 8 for most of the benefit of 2 subclasses, then 4 more level 1 abilities.

[Camman1984]

I think the cleric2/cleric2/cleric2/cleric2/cleric2/cleric2/cleric2/cleric2/cleric2/cleric2 would probably have so many wonderful tricks at his disposable as would the wiz2/wiz2/wiz2/wiz2/wiz2/wiz2/wiz2/wiz2/wiz2/wiz2

[Arkhios]

I have a feeling that this wish to have more than one sub-class per class comes from Pathfinder (whether it's true or not).

Here's the thing. Pathfinder is NOT 5th edition D&D. In other words, 5th edition D&D is NOT Pathfinder. It's just that simple.

No, you cannot have more than one sub-class for one class. Each class has a basic structure that is unique to each class. That basic structure includes certain levels in which sub-class features are gained. Once you have chosen your sub-class, you stick with it, and take all the features at their appropriate levels. You can't stop taking them and start another sub-class instead.

As for how would you be able to do something similar? You could multiclass into another class that might theoretically have a sub-class that is similar to the one you couldn't have from your current class. But it's unlikely to emulate exactly same results.

[OldTrees1]

Multisubclassing does not exist in 5E, but that might not stop your DM.

Consider a Monk 12: You have received many abilities from your Monk levels and 2 abilities from your subclass (at 3rd and 6th levels). One way to simulate multisubclassing is to customize a subclass Obviously just blindly swapping one ability for another can lead to problems, but your DM is not blind.

Maybe they come up with the idea to give
3rd Open Hand Technique
6th Shadow Arts
11th Tranquility
17th Cloak of Shadows

But I must emphasize that multisubclassing does not exist in the rules and that the DM might not decided to homebrew a subclass for & with you.

[Byke]

I'm pretty much in line with Oldtree on this one. By RAW or AL no it is not. But the mechanical rules are just part of the ROLE-PLAYING.

If you desire a specific technique from another sub-class, then talk to your DM.

Either go on a quest to find a lost scroll on the technique or train at another monastery ect..ect..ect...you and your DM are writing the narrative and are doing it for fun.

[Ivor_The_Mad]

If I was to Multisubclass then I would do something like this:

Rouge 4 levels of thief 2 assassin

then you would get: Fast hands and second story work+assassinate and the bonus proficiency. Nothing from the two stacks but you get more of a variety of abilities.

[the_brazenburn]

As your DM, I am inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt and allow you to multiclass into monk from monk. Thus, you can take 4 levels of monk and then decide to multiclass back into monk, taking level 1 all over again. Keep in mind that many of your monk abilities do not stack, so you cannot take Deflect Missiles twice.

[samcifer]

I don't think it's unreasonable for our characters to be infinitely powerful and always roll only crits while the dm always only rolls botches. How else will we, as players, ever get to 'win' D&D?

[MxKit]

Bards get their absolute highest level subclass ability at level 14, and their second highest at level 6. So they could get 100% of the benefit of one subclass and still get 70% of another. Who wouldn't?

Clerics have around 10 domains to choose from, many of which get really cool abilities at level 1. Their highest level subclass ability is at 17, so they could get 3 more level 1 abilities on top of that. They get their second highest level subclass ability at 8. So they could take 2 subclasses to level 8 for most of the benefit of 2 subclasses, then 4 more level 1 abilities.

No, I see what you're saying here, and that's why I said you'd definitely want to approach it differently from multiclassing and stick specifically with the subclass features being switched out while staying the same class. It would be broken as hell if you could just multiclass Bard/Bard, pick up their 3rd, 6th, and 14th level features in one subclass, then jump to another subclass to pick up that one's 3rd and 6th level features because hey, 14+6 = 20 levels.

I feel like doing it so that you would have to give up at least your 14th level feature in one Bard subclass to pick up the 3rd level feature in another would cut out on a lot of that problem. Not all of it, definitely, which is why the DM would still have to pay attention and know their players! But, for example, a Cleric wanting to multiclass into different types of Cleric wouldn't be able to have more than maybe five discrete subclasses (and, again, I'd expect most DMs to put their foot down at that one because of a player just trying to be cheesy), and if they did try to go for all five subclasses they would never be able to pick up anything more than the 1st level ability of all five. I feel like most people wouldn't try to do this, and it wouldn't benefit them much even if they did and they were somehow allowed to. (Which, I also imagine even DMs allowing multisubclassing/subclass mixing wouldn't allow that, even for a Cleric that serves a pantheon. But a Cleric of Waukeen getting to pick up, say, Blessing of Knowledge, Knowledge of the Ages, Read Thoughts, Blessing of the Trickster, and Invoke Duplicity doesn't seem especially out of line to me.)