Trying to sell Spheres of Power.

[SangoProduction]

So, on Roll20, out of the like 15 Pathfinder games, none are willing to use Spheres of Power / Might. One of the GMs I've found that have even considered it basically said "why aren't the barroom spheres just feats themed around barroom fighting."

(to summarize my response) "Well, they basically are just well organized (and interesting) feats. You can even take them as a feat, with Extra Combat Talent."

He didn't respond. I clearly put ranks in to my Profession (Salesperson). I need help. I want to play SoP/SoM so badly.

[noob]

As far as I know spheres of power have some broken stuff(such as killing everybody in a one mile radius with one spell point) but not more than the rest of pathfinder.

[NomGarret]

Not entirely sure what combo you’re referring to, but I’m guessing it’s climate, in which case here are some qualifiers.

1. It requires an advanced talent, which are unavailable by default. That talent has a level 10 prerequisite so we’re talking about the level ranges where control weather spells are a thing.

2. It requires a solid 4-5 talents, which are easily 1/4 to 1/3 of what you have by that point, so a pretty good chunk of your build is built around this.

3. Not much requires more than one SP. Hardly anything requires more than two, and if so, you probably aren’t doing much of it. Since most of the power is caster level dependent, and spell points don’t scale that fast, there’s simply no need.

4. It being a weather effect, this takes quite a few rounds before kicking in. Plus while it will destroy low-level creatures, level appropriate challenges will be hurt and inconvenienced but not insta-killed.

Now none of what I just said is how to convince someone to let you try it in their game. This just counters arguments about why you shouldn’t allow it in your games, it doesn’t make the case for why you should. For that you need time. A GM should have enough time to familiarize themselves with what their PCs can do before jumping into a game. How familiar depends on how much trust the GM has in that player.

If you’re asking someone to spend more time, then the question is “why is this better than options I already know?” For that you need to highlight why your concept either can’t be done with standard options, or particularly with SoM/SoP how it’s so much easier to get that concept online.

Here’s a bonus argument for SoM. Because they can be taken as feats, it is super easy for a GM to spice up boring monsters. Simply swapping out Endurance or Skill Focus: Perception for, say, Brute Sphere can liven up a lot for relatively little effort.

[noob]

As I said sphere of power is broken but not more broken than the rest(and no it was creation and not climate which with some readings allows to do what I explained)
Since it is not more broken than the rest I see no problems with it being added to the game too.(for example it is way less broken than regular casting)
The sad thing is that I did read the spheres of might and it looks underwhelming when compared to the non broken uses of spheres of power.
Can someone explains me how could a normal spheres of might character even vaguely compare to a normal spheres of power character?

[weckar]

You could start your own game, explicitly allow spheres and hope to find like-minded people. If you're not willing to GM you may end up having to pay for one.

[Zanos]

Can't imagine I'd be super keen on learning a new subsystem because some random guy I never met on the internet really wants to play it. Bit of a hard sell.

Try finding someone who's already using SoP.

[TheIronGolem]

The best way to sell people on a new subsystem is probably to run a game yourself using that subsystem.

[EldritchWeaver]

As I said sphere of power is broken but not more broken than the rest(and no it was creation and not climate which with some readings allows to do what I explained)
Since it is not more broken than the rest I see no problems with it being added to the game too.(for example it is way less broken than regular casting)

Not sure how creation figures into this, but the method I know is to use the advanced Dark talent to spellcraft e.g. Destruction onto it.


The sad thing is that I did read the spheres of might and it looks underwhelming when compared to the non broken uses of spheres of power.
Can someone explains me how could a normal spheres of might character even vaguely compare to a normal spheres of power character?

As it has been explained to me, Armigers are better than Armorists up to level 10, then it inverses. Not sure how other classes compare yet. I do agree that without legendary talents you get the fighter problem, although admittedly less extensively (and using SoM in fights is fun in the one I got to so far). But we haven't gotten to other SoM books yet outside CotS, and that didn't do much of expanding either. So there is still enough potential to close the gap. For example, compared to PoW the magical disciplines are not represented well (especially chimeric soul) in SoM yet. But I'm not sure how much the developers will go into that direction, since they want asymmetric balance between SoM and SoP.


So, on Roll20, out of the like 15 Pathfinder games, none are willing to use Spheres of Power / Might. One of the GMs I've found that have even considered it basically said "why aren't the barroom spheres just feats themed around barroom fighting."

It is an organizational thing. But maybe the GM's problem is that Barroom sphere is a bit of a misnomer and he disliked some effects being considered as "barroom" stuff?

But to your question: Did you try games which already use 3PP, especially PoW? You can easier get them to agree to SoP. Another approach would be to emphasize that a SoP character is similar to handle as sorcerer. You are limited to basic rules and the chosen talents. Restrict yourself to basic talents, don't play Spiritualist Hedgewitch or similar "I can get that talent" classes at first. Provide suggestions in which direction your character should go (more martial-ly or more magic-y) depending on GM's whims. Explain that your character has similar staying power as martial class. Avoid flashy stuff which call attention to you (if Destruction, only one blast type, half CL damage, no orbs). Go support overall. And if nothing works, offer to leave or at least switch characters/class.

[Elkad]

You missed your game.

I saw a SoP Rappan Athunk PF game on roll20 a couple weeks ago. IIRC, the DM had a couple thousand hours too.
He basically wanted every character to be an SoP build.

That timeslot is occupied for me, so I couldn't jump on it.

[VisitingDaGulag]

Can't imagine I'd be super keen on learning a new subsystem because some random guy I never met on the internet really wants to play it. Bit of a hard sell.It sounds like its the player's job to build using the subsystem (explaining how each of the abilities works without referencing the subsystem) and then list everything a DM might want to do in response to the existence of the subsystem.

This is relatively easy to do with something like Truenaming or invocations in 3.5. If it's not easy for a player to do then the system wasn't designed well.