3.5e High-Optimization Spirit Shaman

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Hello guys :)

I want to try to make the Spirit Shaman as close as possible to T1 Casters with all 3.5e books allowed, without multiclassing to another caster class(PRC are welcome, base class are not) with minimum level of limitations like PRC Paladin.

32 Point buy.
2 Flaws.
LA 0 only(Humanoid will be the best).

I am bad with Casters and I will like to also get some explanations about the way you guys optimize in order to learn.

[Gnaeus]

I’m interested also. I was very unimpressed with how my spirit Shaman performed. Based on my results I’d call them low T3. I’d love to see what I did wrong.

[weckar]

Spirit Shaman gets some neat things. The big one is probably spell retrieval. This makes them 'spontaneous' to a degree, while still maintaining access to their whole list (allowing for the same list-growth shenanigans that arcane fixed-list casters get up to). The amount of spells so gotten never becomes less than twice your daily casting allotment, and is usually more. Therefore, if you are going to use a spell at least twice it is always worth retrieving for the day. Depending on your DM, Chastise Spirits may or may not qualify you for things that require Turn Undead.

That said, they pull from arguably one of the weaker spell lists in the game: the Druid list. This by default makes them limited to indirect spells such as summoning, healing or buffing. A dip into a Prestige Paladin/Bard or Sand Shaper can extend this list a bit (the latter in particular to allow for some more fanciful direct spells), but most large-scale list additions really give you more of what you already have (which is why they are great for arcane classes that usually get less of that).

Most of the other abilities the SpSh gets are designed to make them the party resident expert at fighting incorporeal creatures. This is why I kind of like theurging with warlock, quickly sidestepping for a few levels into Enlightened Spirit, to emphasise this trait - probably picking permanent speak with animals along the way. This is NOT what you are after, though.

The other major ability they get that does not concern 'spirits' is Guide Magic. It is actually the only other ability they get that cannot simply be replicated by a spell. The fact that you can maintain concentration while doing other things and even while actively opposed is a powerful ability you should try to make the absolute most out of. This is a large part of the Synad's main shtick, and while he gets to do it once per day (although with more flexibility) you get to do it ALL THE TIME. This potentially means freely maintaining a concentration-duration spell indefinitely. For ever.

[Gnaeus]

My problem wasn’t with the Druid list, it was that they only get about half the Druid list. The other half are:
Self buffs like bite of the wereX and enhanced WS that are good wildshaped and terrible on a caster chassis
Animal companion buffs like venom fire and greater magic fang
Day long buffs like primal X that are more than worth a spell memorized but not worth your only slot retrieved for your highest 2 spell levels.

On top of that, Druids and Clerics get a lot of good situational spells that they can slot as appropriate. I found that if I didn’t know that I would be fighting ONLY undead or ONLY outsiders, which happened to me exactly never, I would end up slotting general utility combat spells like Heal. And every single time I cast it I would think how much better I would have been as a favored soul. The generalist part of the Druid list is pretty lacking compared with Sor/Wiz. Because there’s rarely a time that Polymorph won’t help.

My experience was complicated by the fact that my game kept wandering into places where I couldn’t summon, which was really the last nail in the coffin.

But anyway, I don’t want to argue that it is T3, I want (like OP) to see how it gets built to look T1

[weckar]

I see your point on the prep thing. I think with one minor tweak (being able to fill retrieval slots on the fly rather than all at once) it'd have made for a much better class, but as is we have what we have.

[Darrin]

My problem wasn’t with the Druid list, it was that they only get about half the Druid list.


I disagree. The Druid list is still pretty solidly Tier 1. At the higher end, it doesn't get all the bells and whistles as Cleric or Wizard in GAWDMODE, but everything under 9th level is still pretty darned comparable.

My spell advice for treehuggers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?221979-Druid-Help&p=12183941#post12183941) might be worth a perusal if you're looking for more high-impact spells.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I disagree. The Druid list is still pretty solidly Tier 1. At the higher end, it doesn't get all the bells and whistles as Cleric or Wizard in GAWDMODE, but everything under 9th level is still pretty darned comparable.

My spell advice for treehuggers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?221979-Druid-Help&p=12183941#post12183941) might be worth a perusal if you're looking for more high-impact spells.

this is a great list, the explanations on the spells help a lot.

[Gnaeus]

I disagree. The Druid list is still pretty solidly Tier 1. At the higher end, it doesn't get all the bells and whistles as Cleric or Wizard in GAWDMODE, but everything under 9th level is still pretty darned comparable.


Ok. So you disagree. Your spell guide is nice..... for Druids. It has a lot of spells on it that flat out suck in the hands of a spirit Shaman. You gonna take sheltered vitality as your single 4th level spell and venomfire and heart of water as your thirds? Your 8 spells will include Snowsight and Snow Shoes? That’s way weaker than what a T4 WarMage can do same level. Druids get some amazing spells. Enhance WS is a powerhouse of utility, for example. Don’t show that a Druid is T1. All agree. Show a T1 spirit Shaman.

[Darrin]

Ok. So you disagree. Your spell guide is nice..... for Druids. It has a lot of spells on it that flat out suck in the hands of a spirit Shaman. You gonna take sheltered vitality as your single 4th level spell and venomfire and heart of water as your thirds? Your 8 spells will include Snowsight and Snow Shoes? That’s way weaker than what a T4 WarMage can do same level. Druids get some amazing spells. Enhance WS is a powerhouse of utility, for example. Don’t show that a Druid is T1. All agree. Show a T1 spirit Shaman.

I cast summon eggynack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?439991-Being-Everything-Eggynack-s-Comprehensive-Druid-Handbook).

[Grod_The_Giant]

Ok. So you disagree. Your spell guide is nice..... for Druids. It has a lot of spells on it that flat out suck in the hands of a spirit Shaman. You gonna take sheltered vitality as your single 4th level spell and venomfire and heart of water as your thirds? Your 8 spells will include Snowsight and Snow Shoes? That’s way weaker than what a T4 WarMage can do same level. Druids get some amazing spells. Enhance WS is a powerhouse of utility, for example. Don’t show that a Druid is T1. All agree. Show a T1 spirit Shaman.
This gets at the biggest problem with the Spirit Shaman, I think-- while they can swap their spells "known" around every day, they get painfully few spells "known" on any given day. It caps out at 3/level...six levels after you got access to the slots. And because it's not prepared or known, it's hard to find ways around it. The best I can think of is Skypledged, along with a dash of Spontaneous Summoner.

Outside of that, I think it's mostly a question of how much downtime power you can get out of the Druid list. Which is... at best, a lot more obscure than a Wizard or Cleric's, I think. (Fey Ring may be the best gem, and it took me a sizable amount of googling to find even knowing that something like it existed)

[Thurbane]

Is there a way to finangle Lightning Bolt onto the Spirit Shaman spell list? You can do it with Draconic Legacy (RotD), but the feat investment is pretty huge.

Hexer is a nice PrC...

[Gnaeus]

This gets at the biggest problem with the Spirit Shaman, I think-- while they can swap their spells "known" around every day, they get painfully few spells "known" on any given day. It caps out at 3/level...six levels after you got access to the slots. And because it's not prepared or known, it's hard to find ways around it. The best I can think of is Skypledged, along with a dash of Spontaneous Summoner.

Outside of that, I think it's mostly a question of how much downtime power you can get out of the Druid list. Which is... at best, a lot more obscure than a Wizard or Cleric's, I think. (Fey Ring may be the best gem, and it took me a sizable amount of googling to find even knowing that something like it existed)

Even the downtime spells are potentially problematic. Let’s say I take a suck spell of my highest level because it’s a crafting prereq. Then something changes and the party finds itself active.

The Druid loses 33-50% of highest level spells but still has full use of wild shape and animal companion. Can convert to SNA.
The cleric loses 25-33% of highest level spells. Can convert to cures.
The wizard loses 20-50% of highest level spells
All 3 still get their pearls of power.

The spirit Shaman loses 100% of highest level spells. May be able to convert limited number with a feat tax.

[eggynack]

I can generally put together spell lists which, when taken in combination with the long term utility and day to day flexibility offered by the capability to use different parts of the druid list, convince me that the spirit shaman probably gets to tier two. However, I think the journey from two to one would be a real struggle for the spirit shaman. In addition to direct issues with spell retrieval, which have been noted, it's sometimes surprising how much of the list of things you'd like to be able to do as a tier one class comes from wild shape. Especially at higher optimization levels, when stuff like aberration wild shape comes online. Wild shape is, at minimum, how you move, how you get a solid AC, and maybe how you hit stuff, and those things are important. But, with optimization, it becomes how you see, how you defend yourself across a number of axes, how you get ahead in the action economy, how you reanimate the dead, and how you do a ton of other stuff as well.

If you were losing only a bunch of spell capacity, including the stuff that interacts with druid class features, or if you were only losing wild shape (and the animal companion, which is critical to low level comparisons), then I could maybe see it all adding up to tier one. As is, the ridiculous confluence of stuff you lose compared to a druid is probably sufficient to keep the spirit shaman away from tier one.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You can get Ashbound, Greenbound Summoning, a Ring of the Beast, Versatile Spellcaster, the Summon Elemental reserve feat, etc. and be amazing at summoning.

Put (Extended) Snowsight (1st) on the whole party and cast (Extended) Obscuring Snow (2nd), both last an hour/level and this completely breaks every encounter that doesn't have Blindsight or Snowsight. Any Cleric or Wizard in the party can also cast Obscuring Snow.

Bone Talisman (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a) gets you the ability to Turn Undead as a Cleric equal to your level. Those can last a really long time if you put Unguent of Timelessness on each spell focus before casting it, and use a Lesser Rod of Extend. The unguent never wears off and the same bones can be reused indefinitely.

You can pick spells to play like a Batman Wizard, here's just looking for crowd controls, there are nearly as many buffs worth taking:
1st level has Wall of Smoke, Snowsight, and Summon Nature's Ally I (for a Greenbound Dire Bat thanks to the Ring of the Beast, which can cast Wall of Thorns).
2nd level has Creeping Cold (21d6 damage Extended), Kelpstrand, Obscuring Snow, Blood Snow, and Mass Snake's Swiftness.
3rd level has Sleet Storm, Summon Nature's Ally III (for a Unicorn thanks to the Ring of the Beast), and some good utility options like mass Resist Energy.
4th level gets some decent damage spells (Arc of Lightning, Flame Strike), SNA IV (Greenbound Dire Lion with Ring of the Beast), and more utility.
5th has Call Avalanche, which can end a fight all on its own, especially if it's used against a ship or structure.

Plus you can dip Seeker of the Misty Isle and gain access to the Travel domain, and/or get the Raiment of the Four set for additional spell options.

[Anthrowhale]

The way that metamagic interacts with retrieval seems terrible, because metamagic spells take from the (few) high level retrieval slots.

Some ideas:
1) Wild Cohort is somewhat better than the druid's animal companion anyways when you want to take prestige classes. Pick a wild cohort with Venomfire applicable for great damage.
2) Hathran 5 is a natural prestige class choice. With Hathran, it's easy to reach caster level 48 with Word of Balance being a no save instakill for all alignment extremists within 30'. Most of the nasty opponents (Outsiders/Undead/Dragon) are extremists so this is great.
3) Owl's Insight can gives you Wisdom+24 which in turn gives you an extra 3 bonus spells/level. With a Monk's belt, that's also AC+12. Maybe add Intuitive Attack or Zen Archery for the bonus to hit.
4) Very long duration spells increase your effective retrieval limit since you can retrieve them on alternate days. Day/level spells are effectively free. Hour/level spells with a metamagic rod of Extend cost 1/8th of a retrieved spell. 24 hour (or persistent) spells cost 1/2 of a retrieved spell.
5) A spirit shaman can have a very high listen/spot due to a high wisdom enhanced by Owl's Insight with a class skill and some spells that help further.
6) magical training + Singer of Concordance 2 sets you up for Dweomerkeeper which is always nice.
7) Runecaster 8 is a natural choice for prestige class since it allows you to obviate the retrieval limit with scribed permanent runes.
8) Contemplative 1/Sacred Exorcist 1 provides access to DMM[Persistent Spell] at level 12. Combined with Shapechange[Tome Dragon] at level 18, Easy Metamagic[Persistent Spell] and Practical Metamagic[Persistent Spell] to get as much persistent spell as desired at high levels.
9) At low levels, Snowsight + Obscuring Snow is absurdly amazing.
10) Apprentice[Spellcaster] grants access to Use Magic Device enabling Channel Charge to convert a spell slot into any spell 1 level lower off any list. Surely that can be put to good use :smallsmile:
11) Because the Spirit Shaman has a significant Charisma focus, it makes Su abilities from Shapechange have extra difficult saves.

[daremetoidareyo]

Scribe Scroll + all of your leftover spells + race that doesn't need sleep or the ability to relieve fatigue from lack of sleep = back up to tier 1?

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Thank you all, this helps me make the Character I need.

[Gnaeus]

You can get Ashbound, Greenbound Summoning, a Ring of the Beast, Versatile Spellcaster, the Summon Elemental reserve feat, etc. and be amazing at summoning.


Wait, so if I spend my entire build on a trick, I won’t suck at my trick? That’s fantastic. You know that’s practically the definition of Tier 4. Except that Druids can spontaneously summon, and you need a feat to do it much worse than they do (and then apparently take setting feats from 2 different setting one of which requires you to be trained in a Druidic tradition)

But seriously. If your entire schtick is (I cast SNA) and you can’t, you suck. I know, because I fricking BUILT THAT GUY and when we would go somewhere I couldn’t summon it was bloody awful.

A tier 1 goes: I can’t summon, I guess I’ll be awesome in some totally other way today.

A decent tier 2 goes: I have enough spells of different types memorized that if I can’t use conjurations I’ll wreck them with different spells.

A T3 spont caster goes: I’m really good at these things already, I’ll use my feats to access cool stuff I can’t natively do.

A SS goes: I’ll be a good summoner and if that doesn’t work I’ll blow Mind Flayers in the parking lot for drug money.

[weckar]

SS really suffers from the Spirit Guide not being worked out a little more. As it stands, it is basically an imaginary friend because it cannot interact with anything outside your own mind. The text even kind of calls this out by telling you that its shape is basically arbitrary.

[Gnaeus]

Scribe Scroll + all of your leftover spells + race that doesn't need sleep or the ability to relieve fatigue from lack of sleep = back up to tier 1?

It is helpful to make your own scrolls. But it’s also problematic.
1. Unlike most 9 casters, you are pretty feat starved. SAD caster? That’s a feat. You probably need versatile spellcaster. Gonna be a summoner? That’s like a 4 feat chain at least. I encourage every caster to take a craft feat, but I’m not sure scrolls are the one I would take.
2. You aren’t even very good at it. You remember how you only got about half the Druid list before, because you can’t WS and have no AC? Now you have also cut out basically anything save DC or caster level dependent, because scrolls have low DCs and high CL ones are super expensive
3. There’s a class that can make scrolls from any list. All the game breakers. Lowest spell level from off lists. No one calls Warlock T1. Heck half T3-4 can UMD, and while it costs more and has less certain access, it’s also all the good spells in the game, not a fraction of 1 list.

[weckar]

Warlock can't really do it until Lv 12 though, right? If it came online in its first 4 levels or so it may actually make a difference.

[Gnaeus]

Warlock can't really do it until Lv 12 though, right? If it came online in its first 4 levels or so it may actually make a difference.

True enough (although I’m not sure SS can afford scrolls that early either, they have a lot of competing priorities). The warlock can, however, auto UMD at level 4. And when I compare the list of the best spells in the game for 150gp or some Druid spells for 75+xp I’m not seeing that as a clear win for the Shaman.

Total honesty, my SS experience started mid level when my dread necro died preventing a party wipe. So I don’t think as strongly about low level SS. Of course, low level is where the pet really matters for the Druid, so I have my doubts there also.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Wait, so if I spend my entire build on a trick, I won’t suck at my trick? That’s fantastic. You know that’s practically the definition of Tier 4. Except that Druids can spontaneously summon, and you need a feat to do it much worse than they do (and then apparently take setting feats from 2 different setting one of which requires you to be trained in a Druidic tradition)

But seriously. If your entire schtick is (I cast SNA) and you can’t, you suck. I know, because I fricking BUILT THAT GUY and when we would go somewhere I couldn’t summon it was bloody awful.

A tier 1 goes: I can’t summon, I guess I’ll be awesome in some totally other way today.

A decent tier 2 goes: I have enough spells of different types memorized that if I can’t use conjurations I’ll wreck them with different spells.

A T3 spont caster goes: I’m really good at these things already, I’ll use my feats to access cool stuff I can’t natively do.

A SS goes: I’ll be a good summoner and if that doesn’t work I’ll blow Mind Flayers in the parking lot for drug money.

It looks like you've spent this entire thread just attacking everyone else's ideas instead of contributing any of your own.

You don't need to take all the summoning feats to make it amazing, you don't even need to spend more than a few on it (Greenbound Summoning alone is amazing). You can be awesome at summoning in addition to being able to do whatever other tricks you've got. Very rarely will you be in a situation where you just can't summon anything at all, as the only requirement is that it be summoned into an environment that can sustain it. Even if you're summoning greenbound dire rats, they can put Wall of Thorns on top of several opponents to trap them.

You can still get Snowsight + Obscuring Snow and break the game while investing a bit into being an awesome summoner. You can still pick up Kelpstrand, Sleet Storm, etc. and be just as good at crowd controlling as any other character. You can still pick up buffs and Mass Snake's Swiftness and make the rest of your party awesome. A Spirit Shaman is capable of doing all of these things at once.

Why don't you try contributing something meaningful to this thread instead of just attacking everyone else?

[Grim Reader]

Spontaneous Summoner and Spontaneous Healer helps a bit with the low number of spells retrieved per day. I kind of wanted to buils a SS/Sha'ir Arcane Hierophant, but I could never get anything to come together.


The way that metamagic interacts with retrieval seems terrible, because metamagic spells take from the (few) high level retrieval slots.


Back on the old WoTC boards, there was a trick with SS retrieval and metamagic, which I don't remember well. It was to do with the interaction of the retrieval mechanic and some metamagic that let you get +2 levels of free metamagics on one school of spells retrieved. I am sorry I don't remember it well. Anyone else remember it?

[Gnaeus]

It looks like you've spent this entire thread just attacking everyone else's ideas instead of contributing any of your own.

You don't need to take all the summoning feats to make it amazing, you don't even need to spend more than a few on it (Greenbound Summoning alone is amazing). You can be awesome at summoning in addition to being able to do whatever other tricks you've got. Very rarely will you be in a situation where you just can't summon anything at all, as the only requirement is that it be summoned into an environment that can sustain it. Even if you're summoning greenbound dire rats, they can put Wall of Thorns on top of several opponents to trap them.

You can still get Snowsight + Obscuring Snow and break the game while investing a bit into being an awesome summoner. You can still pick up Kelpstrand, Sleet Storm, etc. and be just as good at crowd controlling as any other character. You can still pick up buffs and Mass Snake's Swiftness and make the rest of your party awesome. A Spirit Shaman is capable of doing all of these things at once.

Why don't you try contributing something meaningful to this thread instead of just attacking everyone else?

Here’s my idea. Spirit Shaman can’t be played as a T1 because it isn’t. It isn’t T2. It’s T3, and not at the top of T3. Its actively worse than Favored Soul, Beguiler, or Dread Necromancer, beginning at first level and continuing until it has shapechange and maybe then too. It’s less powerful. Less versatile. Both in terms of its innate abilities and in terms of how hard they are to expand. Beguiler is top 3/bottom 2 but if you asked me to build one to T1 I know exactly how to do it. Rainbow Serpent certainly. Shadowcraft Gnome likely. I was hoping for something like that from this thread. Some cool combo that makes them competitive with top casters. What do I get? A list of Druid spells many of which suck for SS. They can summon. And maybe they can make up for sucking with scrolls.

The most valid input I’ve heard is from Eggynack, who I respect as a source of Druid lore. And he agrees that they aren’t T1. Personally, I think he overrated them because they are Druid like and use a subset of Druid tricks and his level of system mastery bumps it a tier, which is common in tier discussions. But really, when discussing 1 tier difference things can get cloudy, so I wouldn’t fuss much calling them T2 bottom, especially if using the least useful parts of the definition (They do have nukes, for example).

Greenbound summoning is a good trick. Even a broken one at low level. But it doesn’t make you Tier 1.

Obscuring snow is 2. Kelpstrand is 2. Mass Snakes Swiftness is 2. You can pull off what you say at level 9. You are comparing that silliness to a Beguiler who has been casting haste for 3 levels. Slow. Solid fog. Greater Invisibility. Confusion. Greater Mirror Image. Freedom of Movement. And a very solid range of social and utility spells before he begins expanding his list.

[Darrin]

Back on the old WoTC boards, there was a trick with SS retrieval and metamagic, which I don't remember well. It was to do with the interaction of the retrieval mechanic and some metamagic that let you get +2 levels of free metamagics on one school of spells retrieved. I am sorry I don't remember it well. Anyone else remember it?

I'm not finding any specific combos... but one of the feats is Metamagic School Focus. Because of the way retrieval works, metamagic is added to the spell when it's retrieved, not when it's cast. So anytime you cast that spell more than once, it copies whatever metamagic was applied when it was retrieved. However, Metamagic School Focus is only good for reducing the level adjustment by one.

I'm not sure what the second feat would be... I'm guessing Midnight Metamagic from Magic of Incarnum, but I don't think that works. Spirit Shamans are spontaneous casters, and if you invest essentia into Midnight Metamagic, you can apply a metamagic feat to a particular spell at a reduced cost, but it only works for the next casting of that spell. Once the first spell is cast, the essentia is released. So if I'm reading this correctly (Midnight Metamagic isn't explained very well), the metamagic is applied when the spell is cast, not when it's retrieved.

Easy Metamagic would pair up nicely with Metamagic School Focus, and that would reduce the metamagic spell adjustment by two. However, Easy Metamagic is from Dragon Magazine, and that's not an allowed source in many groups. It's also going to suck up at least 4-5 of your feat slots: School Focus, Metamagic School Focus, Easy Metamagic, and {Blarg} Spell.



What do I get? A list of Druid spells many of which suck for SS. They can summon. And maybe they can make up for sucking with scrolls.


I was going to say, a runestaff might solve the summoning problem, allowing you to devote your spell slots to non-summoning spells, but runestaves only work for arcane spells. Alternative Source Spell or Geomancer might help there, as would a Drake Helm or Knowstones. The divine equivalent would be Domain staffs, but those are 36K, so that's not much help at the lower levels.

[Gnaeus]

I was going to say, a runestaff might solve the summoning problem, allowing you to devote your spell slots to non-summoning spells, but runestaves only work for arcane spells. Alternative Source Spell or Geomancer might help there, as would a Drake Helm or Knowstones. The divine equivalent would be Domain staffs, but those are 36K, so that's not much help at the lower levels.

I saved up for my domain staff and it did help. I went with Animal for a good range of Druid spells. And I used it a lot. But as you say it’s high level, it’s hard to find domains that have a good range of spells, and it’s nothing other T2-3 casters can’t do with less hoops.

But thank you, Darren those were helpful.

[eggynack]

Here’s my idea. Spirit Shaman can’t be played as a T1 because it isn’t. It isn’t T2. It’s T3, and not at the top of T3. Its actively worse than Favored Soul, Beguiler, or Dread Necromancer, beginning at first level and continuing until it has shapechange and maybe then too. It’s less powerful. Less versatile. Both in terms of its innate abilities and in terms of how hard they are to expand. Beguiler is top 3/bottom 2 but if you asked me to build one to T1 I know exactly how to do it. Rainbow Serpent certainly. Shadowcraft Gnome likely. I was hoping for something like that from this thread. Some cool combo that makes them competitive with top casters. What do I get? A list of Druid spells many of which suck for SS. They can summon. And maybe they can make up for sucking with scrolls.
This is a really weird comparison to me. Yeah, beguilers are probably better than spirit shamans. However, beguilers are tier two, and pretty well positioned in that tier. Dread necromancer is a worse tier two, but still solidly positioned there, and, while favored soul is tier two as well, I wouldn't be surprised if it placed below beguiler as well. As a result, it doesn't make too much sense to posit spirit shaman as tier three on the basis of these comparisons. Going by my still existent fancy spreadsheet, it looks like the best point of comparison would be proving that spirit shaman is worse than shugenja.



The most valid input I’ve heard is from Eggynack, who I respect as a source of Druid lore. And he agrees that they aren’t T1. Personally, I think he overrated them because they are Druid like and use a subset of Druid tricks and his level of system mastery bumps it a tier, which is common in tier discussions. But really, when discussing 1 tier difference things can get cloudy, so I wouldn’t fuss much calling them T2 bottom, especially if using the least useful parts of the definition (They do have nukes, for example).
For the record, here's the list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21783032&postcount=49) I posited when we were discussing the class' tiering.

[Grod_The_Giant]

This is a really weird comparison to me. Yeah, beguilers are probably better than spirit shamans. However, beguilers are tier two, and pretty well positioned in that tier. Dread necromancer is a worse tier two, but still solidly positioned there, and, while favored soul is tier two as well, I wouldn't be surprised if it placed below beguiler as well. As a result, it doesn't make too much sense to posit spirit shaman as tier three on the basis of these comparisons. Going by my still existent fancy spreadsheet, it looks like the best point of comparison would be proving that spirit shaman is worse than shugenja.
Let's see-- the Shugenja is SAD, will generally have more spells available on a given day, and as a conventional spontaneous caster has a lot more options available for expanding their lists?

[Gnaeus]

This is a really weird comparison to me. Yeah, beguilers are probably better than spirit shamans. However, beguilers are tier two, and pretty well positioned in that tier. Dread necromancer is a worse tier two, but still solidly positioned there, and, while favored soul is tier two as well, I wouldn't be surprised if it placed below beguiler as well. As a result, it doesn't make too much sense to posit spirit shaman as tier three on the basis of these comparisons. Going by my still existent fancy spreadsheet, it looks like the best point of comparison would be proving that spirit shaman is worse than shugenja.


For the record, here's the list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21783032&postcount=49) I posited when we were discussing the class' tiering.

I thought Beguiler was right on the edge in the retiering thread. Using a system that has Beguiler and DN at 2, I’d probably list SS as bottom of 2. Especially if it’s understood that they may be harder to play up than other more conventional 9 casters. I really wasn’t disputing 2 (again, they clearly hit some definitions), so much as 1

[eggynack]

Let's see-- the Shugenja is SAD, will generally have more spells available on a given day, and as a conventional spontaneous caster has a lot more options available for expanding their lists?
Is the list itself remotely comparable though? I don't remember it being all that great, and the spirit shaman casting mechanic provides meaningful flexibility advantages.

I thought Beguiler was right on the edge in the retiering thread.
I think they got like a 2.2 something in my thread, and landed around the line in Jormengand's (before some upward adjustments that should have happened). On some level that aspect doesn't matter too much though. It's a tier two class because it compares well to classes within the tier. I don't think I've seen a single argument otherwise that was all that convincing.


Using a system that has Beguiler and DN at 2, I’d probably list SS as bottom of 2. Especially if it’s understood that they may be harder to play up than other more conventional 9 casters. I really wasn’t disputing 2 (again, they clearly hit some definitions), so much as 1.
Fair eonugh, I suppose.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Is the list itself remotely comparable though? I don't remember it being all that great, and the spirit shaman casting mechanic provides meaningful flexibility advantages.

I think they got like a 2.2 something in my thread, and landed around the line in Jormengand's (before some upward adjustments that should have happened). On some level that aspect doesn't matter too much though. It's a tier two class because it compares well to classes within the tier. I don't think I've seen a single argument otherwise that was all that convincing.

Fair eonugh, I suppose.
The Shugenja list is probably the most T3, 9th level list WotC wrote, but how really broken magic stuff does the Spirit Shaman get? Especially with only one or two top-level spells known at a time? The only things that really jump out at me are Greenbound Summoning (which I'm not really sure even should be counted towards tiering) and Fey Ring (which is crazy obscure)...

[eggynack]

The Shugenja list is probably the most T3, 9th level list WotC wrote, but how really broken magic stuff does the Spirit Shaman get? Especially with only one or two top-level spells known at a time? The only things that really jump out at me are Greenbound Summoning (which I'm not really sure even should be counted towards tiering) and Fey Ring (which is crazy obscure)...
It's less about ridiculous broken crap, in my opinion, and more about the wide array of really strong practical stuff. Stuff like entangle and control winds. Brokenness is really not a great measure of tiering. A first level wizard isn't good because there happens to be some super high op build that can use higher level spells. They're good because they have silent image and color spray. The fey rings of the game are great, but they're not the core of all power.

[Anthrowhale]

Spirit Shaman might be underestimated a bit in this thread. Relative to a Favored Soul, they
(a) get access to a spell level 1 class level earlier. Even if all they do with the higher level spell slots is use them for Channel Charge, that's still pretty significant.
(b) can deeply change their loadout on a daily basis. This matters a fair bit---underground vs. outside, city vs country, class level, and party composition all affect which spells make sense from the druid list and almost always vary over a campaign.

Overall, I think a Favored Soul can win at high levels because they have access to more egregious things (i.e. Initiate of Mystra, Persistent Consumptive Field) but if you take those off the table, it seems much less clear. Snowsight + Obscuring Snow is really great and it comes online at level 3. At high levels, a Spirit Shaman persisting Shapechange, Undermaster, Foresight, Cast in Stone, Unearthly Beauty, and Stormrage seems pretty scary since they can test every save in a single round with any failure a lose or die. A Druid would have a greater variety of spells on any given day, but the Charisma focus of a Spirit Shaman synergizes well with Su and Sp abilities from Shapechange and Undermaster.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It's less about ridiculous broken crap, in my opinion, and more about the wide array of really strong practical stuff. Stuff like entangle and control winds. Brokenness is really not a great measure of tiering. A first level wizard isn't good because there happens to be some super high op build that can use higher level spells. They're good because they have silent image and color spray. The fey rings of the game are great, but they're not the core of all power.
Brokenness might be a bit of a misnomer, but... I think the boundary we're looking at here is T1 vs T3. They can self-evidently contribute to a wide variety of encounters, what with the changeable spell list, meaning the fundamental question is are they CONTRIBUTING to the encounters or DOMINATING them? Are they flexible enough to do many things but not as well as a specialist, or are they beating out the specialist at their own game?

[weckar]

Overall, I think a Favored Soul can win at high levels because they have access to more egregious things (i.e. Initiate of Mystra,

IoM specifically requires Cleric levels, does it not?

[Anthrowhale]

IoM specifically requires Cleric levels, does it not?

Dragon Magic changes that rule to allow a Favored Soul to take it on page 15.

[Gnaeus]

Spirit Shaman might be underestimated a bit in this thread. Relative to a Favored Soul, they
(a) get access to a spell level 1 class level earlier. Even if all they do with the higher level spell slots is use them for Channel Charge, that's still pretty significant.
(b) can deeply change their loadout on a daily basis. This matters a fair bit---underground vs. outside, city vs country, class level, and party composition all affect which spells make sense from the druid list and almost always vary over a campaign.

Overall, I think a Favored Soul can win at high levels because they have access to more egregious things (i.e. Initiate of Mystra, Persistent Consumptive Field) but if you take those off the table, it seems much less clear. Snowsight + Obscuring Snow is really great and it comes online at level 3. At high levels, a Spirit Shaman persisting Shapechange, Undermaster, Foresight, Cast in Stone, Unearthly Beauty, and Stormrage seems pretty scary since they can test every save in a single round with any failure a lose or die. A Druid would have a greater variety of spells on any given day, but the Charisma focus of a Spirit Shaman synergizes well with Su and Sp abilities from Shapechange and Undermaster.

That’s a funny kind of backdoor way to say that being MAD is a good thing. By the time 9s come into play any full caster can break the game about evenly.

I just don’t think the first part matters that much because:
1. Spell for spell, and especially after stripping all the spells that Shamans can’t use well, cleric spells are better than Druid ones. Doubly true when you figure that the soul is on a better chassis. (Self Buffing for a medium armor user with wf in a martial weapon is better than self buffing for a light armor user with a spear).

2. The soul has like twice as many spells known. At level 9 for example it’s 10 spells versus 18. And as previously mentioned it’s easier to boost spells known than spells retrieved. And of course, a good metamagic feat can radically improve the souls options of potential spells in high level slots, but not the shamans.

3. I think people greatly overestimate the power of changing spell load outs, especially on something with as few spells retrieved as a Shaman. Yeah, the Druid might have the slots to swap out (3rd best spell of level x) to demon fighting spell, or undead fighting spell or outside specific spell. But functionally, most days he’s gonna pick the best few spells of each level and play around the edges. Everyone seems to like snowsight and obscuring snow for example. Ok, is that Underground or outside? Realistically, unless you have some good reason to think you will be fighting things that don’t care, it’s gonna be an always spell. If so, at 3 you have 1 1st level to change and at 4 you have 2. Sure I traded out some spells on my Shaman, but I could have written 75% of my spell list in magic marker. Given the probable overlap, it is likely that a FS can know as many spells as your outside, underground, and urban lists put together.

And as I mentioned before, if you aren’t 100% sure that the sounds in the haunted tower are undead and not an evil cult frightening people away, slotting that sheltered vitality is a risky move.

[Grim Reader]

I'm not finding any specific combos... but one of the feats is Metamagic School Focus. Because of the way retrieval works, metamagic is added to the spell when it's retrieved, not when it's cast. So anytime you cast that spell more than once, it copies whatever metamagic was applied when it was retrieved. However, Metamagic School Focus is only good for reducing the level adjustment by one.

Maybe? You can apply an Easy Metamagic to both MSF and the feat you are slapping onto the spell. Maybe there is a reading of Easy Metamagic or the combination of the two that lets MSF override the "+1 minimum" bit. You would get a -2 reduction on all metamagics with a level adjustment of +3 or more anyway. Slap on Practical Metamagic for a -3.

I suppose it could have been using MSF as a target for Easy Metamagic and Practical Metamagic. The fact that MSF itself is a rider for other Metamagic feats gets around the "apply to one metamagic feat" restriction, and the retrieval mechanic gets around the 3/day limitation. Its terribly feat hungry though. But if you got the feats, you can also slap PM and EM on the Metamagics themselves.

[weckar]

I really always imagined that in early drafts the spell retrieval was intended to function similarly to the Erudite's unique powers per day mechanic.

How exactly is spell retrieval really meant to be more versatile than preparing spells from the same list?

[daremetoidareyo]

I really always imagined that in early drafts the spell retrieval was intended to function similarly to the Erudite's unique powers per day mechanic.

How exactly is spell retrieval really meant to be more versatile than preparing spells from the same list?

The metamagic is baked into the spell itself, so you could, in theory, craft magic items like infusions, attuned gems, and wands of maximized venomfire, if, for some dumb reason, you didn't use all of your venomfires earlier in the day.

[Darrin]

Maybe? You can apply an Easy Metamagic to both MSF and the feat you are slapping onto the spell. Maybe there is a reading of Easy Metamagic or the combination of the two that lets MSF override the "+1 minimum" bit. You would get a -2 reduction on all metamagics with a level adjustment of +3 or more anyway. Slap on Practical Metamagic for a -3.


Metamagic School Focus is not, itself, a [metamagic] feat, so Easy/Practical Metamagic can't be applied to it directly.

After some digging around... I didn't find any posts of the combo, but I'm more inclined to think it's Metamagic School Focus + Practical Metamagic. It costs four feats, though:

1) Spell Focus: Conjuration
2) Fell Drain (or whatever)
3) Practical Metamagic -> Fell Drain (reduces level adjustment to +1)
4) Metamagic School Focus -> Conjuration

So... let's say you retrieve lava missile, splinterbolt, and haboob. Thanks to Practical Metamagic, Fell Drain is only +1 level, but applying Metamagic School Focus when the spells are retrieved lowers this to +0 level. However, with the way retrieved spells work, you can now cast nine different spells with Fell Drain attached.

What happens when you put Fell Drain on summon nature's ally/conjure ice beast? Does the creature's natural weapon attacks confer a negative level? What about the no-save free-action cold aura from the ice beast, is that also a negative level? What if the creature hits more than once, do the negative levels stack? (I've never really used Fell Drain before, but I hear it's fun.)

Well, Metamagic School Focus takes a little bit of the sting out of having to take Spell Focus: Conjuration (if you had to grab it for Augment Summoning), although Transmutation or Evocation might be better schools to choose. Then again... spamming fell drained lava missiles at everything that moves sounds really cool right now!

[Anthrowhale]

That’s a funny kind of backdoor way to say that being MAD is a good thing. By the time 9s come into play any full caster can break the game about evenly.

I'm not following this bit, but I would say that a Spirit Shaman is not truly MAD at high levels due to Owl's Insight. Even a Spirit Shaman 20 can use Owl's Insight to get a +12 bonus to Wisdom very easily.


I just don’t think the first part matters that much because:
1. Spell for spell, and especially after stripping all the spells that Shamans can’t use well, cleric spells are better than Druid ones. Doubly true when you figure that the soul is on a better chassis. (Self Buffing for a medium armor user with wf in a martial weapon is better than self buffing for a light armor user with a spear).

I'm not seeing how a level 4 Favored Soul can contribute more to the party than a level 3 Spirit Shaman using Obscuring Snow+Snowsight. That's an amazing combo since it makes every enemy flat-footed and makes enemy attacks only have a 50% chance of connecting.


2. The soul has like twice as many spells known. At level 9 for example it’s 10 spells versus 18. And as previously mentioned it’s easier to boost spells known than spells retrieved. And of course, a good metamagic feat can radically improve the souls options of potential spells in high level slots, but not the shamans.

Favored Spells have more spells known but they don't have more spells active. An optimized Spirit Shaman will be swapping spells retrieved every day and have spells active from the previous several days on any given day. I'm imagining a layout where only about 1 spell per level is an 'always chosen' spell and the remaining spells retrieved are long duration buffs with the exact spell retrieved alternating every day.


3. I think people greatly overestimate the power of changing spell load outs, especially on something with as few spells retrieved as a Shaman. Yeah, the Druid might have the slots to swap out (3rd best spell of level x) to demon fighting spell, or undead fighting spell or outside specific spell. But functionally, most days he’s gonna pick the best few spells of each level and play around the edges. Everyone seems to like snowsight and obscuring snow for example. Ok, is that Underground or outside? Realistically, unless you have some good reason to think you will be fighting things that don’t care, it’s gonna be an always spell. If so, at 3 you have 1 1st level to change and at 4 you have 2. Sure I traded out some spells on my Shaman, but I could have written 75% of my spell list in magic marker. Given the probable overlap, it is likely that a FS can know as many spells as your outside, underground, and urban lists put together.

And as I mentioned before, if you aren’t 100% sure that the sounds in the haunted tower are undead and not an evil cult frightening people away, slotting that sheltered vitality is a risky move.
I hear you above, but do you understand the strategy of swapping spells retrieved daily to have as many active buffs up as possible? That's a solid strategy. Stated another way, an extended persistent spell takes only one half of a retrieved slot. It also seems like a Spirit Shaman can deal with the "oh, we have a new party member that does my shtick, let me adapt to that" better than a Favored Soul.

[Lans]

There is a metamagic feat from ebberon that recasts a spell at -4 caster level when its duration runs out, I think between that, extend, 10 minute/level spells+, and/0r persist something can be done.

[Anthrowhale]

There is a metamagic feat from ebberon that recasts a spell at -4 caster level when its duration runs out, I think between that, extend, 10 minute/level spells+, and/0r persist something can be done.

You are probably thinking of echoing metamagic. It doesn't recast automatically, but rather allows you to cast again at will. It also requires "ability to prepare spells" which could be achieved via Southern Magician + Arcane Preparation. If you have a 10 minute/level spell on a Hathran casting at level 48 you could have the spell last 3 days (on all the time) or 6 days (on for an 8 hour adventuring day). That seems good although fairly feat intensive, particularly if you want to go further and reduce the cost of echoing spell.

In general though, Southern Magician + Arcane Preparation seems good for a Spirit Shaman as it allows spell slot limited spell diversity. As long as the number of unique spells/level expended in an adventuring day was less than the retrieval limit you could even keep this up indefinitely.

[Zaq]

I've said this before, but Spirit Shamans play very differently at low levels and high levels. More so than most classes, I'd wager.

At low levels, the SS has punishingly few spells retrieved, and they can only barely cover their bases with no real room for flexibility or utility. It's pretty rough. They can pick new spells every day, but their margin of error for "did you pick the right spells" is very very small. That said, they are still full casters, and they will shine brightly if their retrieved spells are relevant to the day's challenges. (There are enough generically useful Druid spells that they're unlikely to be totally useless unless they went in a weird direction, but yeah.) Split-stat casting isn't killer for them, but it is more noticeable at low levels than at high levels.

At high levels, they've got enough spells retrieved (and, if you're optimizing, enough ways to hack additional spells into their pool of available things to cast—using PrCs to gain domains, for example) to really feel like a prepared caster. You've got enough juice to cover your bases easily and have some space left for utility, and if you don't have the perfect answer for something today, you can almost certainly have that answer tomorrow. That's pretty much how prepared casters work. Sure, a Druid does it better, but that doesn't mean that the SS sucks. A Druid does most things better than most classes, but that's because Druids are OP. A high-level SS who isn't intentionally making bad choices will always be able to bring a decent amount of magic to the field and will often be able to bring some really strong magic to the field, and if they know what they're preparing for, then they're going to be on the "strong magic" side of the equation.

They do totally get hosed on metamagic. I won't argue about that at all. The poor SS is better off using a rod for metamagic 9 times out of 10.

(Also, I don't feel like Shugenjas even come close to the power level of the SS, but that's because I think Shugenjas are the weakest 9th level casters, with the possible exception of the Healer. The fact that they have to ban an element, with every element containing something that you care about, is bad enough, but it's that combined with the fact that half of their spells have to come from their primary element that really prevents them from being well-rounded and robust casters. Don't just look at the [too small] spell list. Pick a target level and try actually building a Shugenja of that level who functions as a well-rounded caster while obeying all their restrictions. It's bloody hard. 3.5 might be a better system if all casters had similar restrictions to the Shugenja, but that's not the case, so the Shugenja sucks.)

[Lans]

(Also, I don't feel like Shugenjas even come close to the power level of the SS, but that's because I think Shugenjas are the weakest 9th level casters, with the possible exception of the Healer. The fact that they have to ban an element, with every element containing something that you care about, is bad enough, but it's that combined with the fact that half of their spells have to come from their primary element that really prevents them from being well-rounded and robust casters. Don't just look at the [too small] spell list. Pick a target level and try actually building a Shugenja of that level who functions as a well-rounded caster while obeying all their restrictions. It's bloody hard. 3.5 might be a better system if all casters had similar restrictions to the Shugenja, but that's not the case, so the Shugenja sucks.)

Are you counting the Shadowcaster as a caster? That seems like a dumb question.




In general though, Southern Magician + Arcane Preparation seems good for a Spirit Shaman as it allows spell slot limited spell diversity. As long as the number of unique spells/level expended in an adventuring day was less than the retrieval limit you could even keep this up indefinitely.

Does Southern Magician and Arcane Prep actually solve spirit shamans casting problem?

[Anthrowhale]

Does Southern Magician and Arcane Prep actually solve spirit shamans casting problem?
Well, it takes ~3 days to restock the repertoire of prepared spells if you burn them all in one day. So "not entirely".

[Zaq]

Are you counting the Shadowcaster as a caster? That seems like a dumb question.

Not in the same sense as the “normal” arcane or divine spelllcasters, no. They’re similar in a lot of ways, but they’re different enough that I tend to separate them in my mind for discussions like this.

[daremetoidareyo]

A human or half elf can take the fearless destiny feat, the diehard feat, and recall his own spirit to their own dead body once per week at level 11. Just need to find a cool nova trick to pair with that, using druid spells and gear only. Is there a way to get a death throes attack onto a spirit shaman?

Here's 1 plan: If the player can become elemental (like via the 3rd level spell primal form) or a fey, a psionic item that can manifest fate link (the 3rd level seer spell) can be used on a big opponent. Then you use chastise spirits on yourself, dealing 1d6 hp damage per level to yourself and your opponent. Do that until you and they die as well and they have to make a save or take two negative levels. Fearless destiny/diehard/recall yourself after killing the big bad and walk home with all of those experience points.

Although, you could just take the attune gem feat, make some primal form gems, attach the gems to the end of short poles, turn your enemies into elementals and then chastise their spirits.

[Lans]

Not in the same sense as the “normal” arcane or divine spelllcasters, no. They’re similar in a lot of ways, but they’re different enough that I tend to separate them in my mind for discussions like this.

Ok, I think of them as barely in the caster position, with the ToB stuff being the next closest thing to a caster/


Well, it takes ~3 days to restock the repertoire of prepared spells if you burn them all in one day. So "not entirely".
I was thinking it would take 2 days to double its spell diversity from start, and at the least you have more spells available

[Grim Reader]

Anyway, the SS is a spontaneous caster that in effect picks new spells known daily. As such, they can make good use of domains. Domains can expand your spell list quite a bit since you are not limited by the 1/day limitation. That does not get you around the low number of spells retrieved though. PrCs such as Fiend-blooded and Sand Shaper can help a lot.

[weckar]

PrCs such as Fiend-blooded and Sand Shaper can help a lot. Does it, though? Because I find it entirely unclear whether those spells become known every day, or just available to be retrieved.

[Grim Reader]

Does it, though? Because I find it entirely unclear whether those spells become known every day, or just available to be retrieved.

I lean towards the SS being a spontaneous caster without spells known. So if they get a spell known, they can use their spell slots to cast them like other spontaneous casters. Basically having both spells knowns and spells retrieved. I can see that you can make a good argument the other way though.

[Gnaeus]

I'm not following this bit, but I would say that a Spirit Shaman is not truly MAD at high levels due to Owl's Insight. Even a Spirit Shaman 20 can use Owl's Insight to get a +12 bonus to Wisdom very easily.

I'm not seeing how a level 4 Favored Soul can contribute more to the party than a level 3 Spirit Shaman using Obscuring Snow+Snowsight. That's an amazing combo since it makes every enemy flat-footed and makes enemy attacks only have a 50% chance of connecting.

Favored Spells have more spells known but they don't have more spells active. An optimized Spirit Shaman will be swapping spells retrieved every day and have spells active from the previous several days on any given day. I'm imagining a layout where only about 1 spell per level is an 'always chosen' spell and the remaining spells retrieved are long duration buffs with the exact spell retrieved alternating every day.

I hear you above, but do you understand the strategy of swapping spells retrieved daily to have as many active buffs up as possible? That's a solid strategy. Stated another way, an extended persistent spell takes only one half of a retrieved slot. It also seems like a Spirit Shaman can deal with the "oh, we have a new party member that does my shtick, let me adapt to that" better than a Favored Soul.

I would say that Owls Wisdom is pretty much junk for the Shaman.
It’s a level 5 spell, so you can’t cast it until 9, but then you only get one level 5 spell, so you can’t functionally slot it until level 12. So you are saying that a spirit Shaman in the teens isn’t MAD because he can spend a spell known and a spell cast to be able to cast spells with saves and any high level spells at all for an hour? That’s awful.

Obscuring snow doesn’t impress me either. You only get that flat footed/50% miss chance for enemies farther than 5. So most low level critters can just close and attack you, and it’s no better than blur. It eats all your first level spells cast, and all your second level spells retrieved. It does come on line a few levels earlier than comparable darkness/mist tricks. So that’s cool. OTOH, the FS can learn it also, and snowsight is a level 1 wand for your ranger or anyone with UMD. Best case it’s a decent spell which neutralizes some encounters (ranged sighted enemies), has minimal effects in others (melee threats) and actively sucks in others (any time you want to stealth). And it’s pretty much your sole trick. So how about if the FS takes Obscuring Snow (for fighting archers), Resist Energy (a good utility spell), and summon monster 2, for meat shields, trap detection or obstacles. That sounds like it contributes more to me.

Yes, you can recover some of your long term buffs by extending them. And yes, then they only take up half a slot. Of course it’s a slot a level higher than normal, which hurts. And if it’s an important buff you can’t recast if dispelled. And of course persistent extended buffs require multiple feats and very high level, or dips for turn attempts. But yes, if you build around it you can semi-permanently self buff yourself to about a strong tier 5 combat level, and keep some decent immunities like the primal line and maybe a persisted mass lesser vigor. Yay.

[Anthrowhale]

I would say that Owls Wisdom is pretty much junk for the Shaman.
It’s a level 5 spell, so you can’t cast it until 9, but then you only get one level 5 spell, so you can’t functionally slot it until level 12. So you are saying that a spirit Shaman in the teens isn’t MAD because he can spend a spell known and a spell cast to be able to cast spells with saves and any high level spells at all for an hour? That’s awful.

Obscuring snow doesn’t impress me either. You only get that flat footed/50% miss chance for enemies farther than 5. So most low level critters can just close and attack you, and it’s no better than blur. It eats all your first level spells cast, and all your second level spells retrieved. It does come on line a few levels earlier than comparable darkness/mist tricks. So that’s cool. OTOH, the FS can learn it also, and snowsight is a level 1 wand for your ranger or anyone with UMD. Best case it’s a decent spell which neutralizes some encounters (ranged sighted enemies), has minimal effects in others (melee threats) and actively sucks in others (any time you want to stealth). And it’s pretty much your sole trick. So how about if the FS takes Obscuring Snow (for fighting archers), Resist Energy (a good utility spell), and summon monster 2, for meat shields, trap detection or obstacles. That sounds like it contributes more to me.

Yes, you can recover some of your long term buffs by extending them. And yes, then they only take up half a slot. Of course it’s a slot a level higher than normal, which hurts. And if it’s an important buff you can’t recast if dispelled. And of course persistent extended buffs require multiple feats and very high level, or dips for turn attempts. But yes, if you build around it you can semi-permanently self buff yourself to about a strong tier 5 combat level, and keep some decent immunities like the primal line and maybe a persisted mass lesser vigor. Yay.

You've made several mistakes here, all against the Spirit Shaman.

Spirit Shaman's use Wisdom for bonus spells, not saves. Hence Owl's insight provides many extra spells/day for long duration buffs.
An optimized Spirit Shaman will persist Owl's Insight (yes, it's Owl's Insight, not Owl's Wisdom) via Divine Reach, Ocular Spell, or Reach Spell.
Extending spells does not take a higher level slot---there is a rod to use instead.
Any level 12+ Spirit Shaman that cares will be casting buff spells with at least caster level+8, and possibly quite a bit higher so nothing short of Disjunction takes out their buffs.
I don't know where you are getting "Tier 5 combat level", but merely persisting one spell (Shapechange) puts the Spirit Shaman well beyond Tier 5.


Obscuring Snow is potentially more efficacious than you suggest because forms of flight/levitation/climbing exist, because not all enemies know to charge into the middle of the cloud, because a 30' radius is adequate to make the middle of the cloud potentially difficult to find (remember, it's a spread), and because a Spirit Shaman can potentially play defense while the rest of the party plays peek-a-stab with enemies.

Your Favored Soul probably can't UMD a wand of Snowsight reliably at lower levels. A ranger in the party could work, but you would burn through charges quite fast unless you used a substantially more expensive wand with a higher caster level. And of course the ranger may not be there. The other spells are reasonable but none break encounters the same way as Obscuring Snow+Snowsight. Maybe SMII is particularly compelling if the party lacks a dedicated trapfinder in a trap heavy game? But you'll be running out of SMII very quickly so it's not clear this is a particularly effective low level strategy.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Does it, though? Because I find it entirely unclear whether those spells become known every day, or just available to be retrieved.
That seems to be a DM-dependent question that'll change the shape of things significantly. I can definitely see either way.

As for the original question... my first thought is to start as a Changeling and dip into the OA Shapechanger PrC at ECL 8th for...oh, two levels (stupid half-casting PrCs). That lets you get Natural Spell at 9th, Aberration Wild Shape at 12th, and bring the lion's share of the Druid's (Enhance) Wild Shape stuff back into play. That plus Wild Cohort and Spontaneous Summoning significantly boosts your ability to pretend to be a Druid.

As for mitigating the painfully low spells retrieved, Southern Magician + Runestaff is a good option that should work regardless of DM ruling on things like Sand Shaper. (At the highest level of optimization, the Ancestral Relic trick can be thrown in too)

Greenbound Summoning is, of course, required.

As for using their actual class features... hmm. Chastise Spirits will occasionally be useful, but is probably most useful for begging the DM to let you count it as Turn Undead so you can use Divine Metamagic. Permanent Protection From/Magic Circle Against Evil isn't bad, as is rerolling saves against enchantments and becoming incorporeal 1/day. Recall Spirit will save a life or two once you get it, hopefully, and Favored of the Spirits is... probably inferior to Contingent Heal, but eh. Guide Magic is the only one that really jumps out as having potential, but I'm not sure what spells are worth using with it...