Build Ideas for Dex-based Natural Attacker?

[Gyrfalcon]

Hey,

When I started with my character, I had in mind to build a natural attacker that used the Unchained Rogue's Finesse Training to get to get dex to damage on her natural attacks. It was only later (quite a bit later), that I found out that Finesse Training doesn't cover all natural attacks, but I'd have to pick claw or bite, and that's it. This seriously puts a crimp in the character design, and I've had to ditch everything I was planning with her. Now, Path of War makes Dex to Damage as easy as a feat at 3rd level, though that delays getting her fourth natural attack.

So I turn to you for ideas on where to go with this character. I'd like to keep using natural attacks, and she's the party's primary skill monkey/trapfinder.

Her original outline was to go Unchained Rogue for 4 levels, then switch to Unchained Monk.

Zeratuu, Unchained Rogue (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=904679)

House-ruled Content
- Custom race, a stock kobold with two claw attacks and a static feat (Draconic Aspect) added.
- Natural attacks are allowed as secondary attacks following full attack replacements such as Flurry of Blows. RAW, this was not allowed.

Available sources:
- All 1st party Pathfinder content on Archives of Nethys/d20PFSRD
- Path of War, after another player asked to be able to use this content.

[Geddy2112]

In some ways I question rogue 4, although debilitating injury on natural attacks is pretty solid, particularly if you can score a -4 to their AC with a claw then follow with the other and the teeth. Uncanny dodge is okay but not great, I suppose the big seller is what rogue talent really catches your eye at level 4? I ask because getting into full BAB and extra attacks will greatly increase your combat output

Unless your DM says otherwise, you need feral combat training to flurry with your claws, then secondary bite(or vice versa). You basically need as your 5th level feat, which will leave you using fists for a level. Unless your DM will let you flurry with kicks/knees/elbows and then follow with claw claw bite? In which case that is pretty stacked, even with the negative modifiers.

If you can uberflurry, I would take monk as soon as I got dex to damage and 2d6 sneak, or maybe even monk next level and use path of war deadly agility, giving you dex to damage on all of your natural attacks and unarmed strikes. It is a shame none of the unchained archetypes replace evasion, as getting it twice is a little redundant. You will have enough skill ranks in monk to still power key skills, and you already have trapfinding so unless another rogue power is calling your name I would bail on rogue. Getting more attacks is better than sneak attacking, as your sneak attack is not always guaranteed. You can take accomplished sneak attacker later if you wanna juice it. None of the unchained monk archetypes are all that great for your build, so I would just go vanilla.

[Gyrfalcon]

Thanks for the feedback, I appreciate it.

UCRogue 4 is mostly for debilitating injury indeed. The reason for that is (under the original reasoning), after UCRogue 3, then going UCMonk for the rest of the build. Looking at (assuming it lasts that long) UCMonk 16 and 17, you're trading another possible style strike and a fluff ability for a solid debuff ability to help out the other melee character. In either case of UCRogue3/UCMonk17 or UCRogue4/UCMonk16, you still have four attacks before flurry from BAB, though at a slightly lower to-hit.

The rules for unarmed strikes state 'A monk’s attacks can be with fists, elbows, knees, and feet'. So it's perfectly rules legal to flurry with kicks to keep the hands free to make claw attacks. In principle at high levels, the kobold would probably be this flailing ball of kicks, claws, biting and tail smacks every round.

I think I might go Fighter for the next level to be able to pick up both Tail Terror (Level 3) and Deadly Agility (Fighter Bonus feat) before going into Unchained Monk.

[noob]

Straight druid all the way?
Does it still works in pathfinder?
It gets you pounce rather fast(by level 6) and you do not lose your natural attacks(but you do not gain any natural attacks either)
Also kraken druid can get a bunch of additional natural attacks and if you can find an amphibious animal with pounce it is great.(since it does not says you can not use wild shape twice for benefiting from the two kind of options)
Basically if you can find an amphibious animal with pounce kraken druid does better full attack routines and charges than monks.
On top of that at no moments I used the druid spellcasting.
In fact I found that beast shape does not change your ability to breath out of water nor remove any of your movements so I just need to find an aquatic animal that have pounce.
I found it:

When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of any Small or Medium creature of the animal type
So it means that I can get the shape of a templated animal.
So I can just apply that archetype that gives the aquatic sub type to any animal and then the kraken druid can take the shape of any animal.

[grarrrg]

Also kraken druid can get a bunch of additional natural attacks and if you can find an amphibious animal with pounce it is great.(since it does not says you can not use wild shape twice for benefiting from the two kind of options)

General Polymorph rules (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Transmutation-Polymorph):
"You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell."

[noob]

General Polymorph rules (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Transmutation-Polymorph):
"You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell."



The kraken caller can alternatively expend a daily use of wild shape to grow tentacles out of her body while otherwise retaining her own form. This effect lasts for 10 minutes per level, or until the kraken caller changes back.

Not called out to be a polymorph effect nor a spell.
So take the shape of an animal then use that power.


At 4th level, the kraken caller grows two tentacles while in this form. The tentacles have a reach of 5 feet regardless of the kraken caller’s size, and the kraken caller can use them as secondary natural attacks that deal 1d4 points of damage (1d3 for a Small kraken caller). She also gains a racial bonus on Climb, Swim, and dirty trick combat maneuver checks equal to the number of tentacles grown.

At each of 6th, 8th, 10th, and 12th levels, a kraken caller can grow an additional tentacle. As a move action, she can retract or regrow any number of the additional tentacles, redistributing the mass of any retracted tentacles. For every 2 retracted tentacles, she can increase the reach of the remaining tentacles by 5 feet (to a maximum of 15 feet), or increase the damage dealt by her tentacles as if she were one size category larger.

While in this form, a kraken caller can expel a 10-foot-radius cloud of ink once per minute as a standard action.

This cloud provides total concealment in water and persists for 1 round per level. The ink has no effect out of water.

It is described as a form but the fact it is a form does not necessarily means it is a polymorph effect nor that you can not add that form on top of another form.

The spell the closest to that power is Savage Maw (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/savage-maw).(gives a natural attack by transforming you and gives you an optional action)
And it does not have the polymorph sub type.

[Florian]

@noob:

The major change is that polymorph/wild shape doesn't switch your attributes to match that of the creature, but give you a (size) bonus instead. So a shaping-based build must already have some good physical attributes to be worthwhile.

@Gyrfalcon:

One word: "Trap".

Natural attack builds work because they circumvent BAB and iterative attacks as well as the penalty for using an off-hand, both in regard to the malus and the halved STR bonus to it.

Your Kobold has the advantage of starting out with an attack routine that is en par with a +6/+1 BAB and the TWF feat, but you cannot progress from there without switching to weapons.

[noob]

@noob:

The major change is that polymorph/wild shape doesn't switch your attributes to match that of the creature, but give you a (size) bonus instead. So a shaping-based build must already have some good physical attributes to be worthwhile.

@Gyrfalcon:

One word: "Trap".

Natural attack builds work because they circumvent BAB and iterative attacks as well as the penalty for using an off-hand, both in regard to the malus and the halved STR bonus to it.

Your Kobold has the advantage of starting out with an attack routine that is en par with a +6/+1 BAB and the TWF feat, but you cannot progress from there without switching to weapons.

Or using class features that gets you more natural attacks.
I think I like the new wild shape.
While you no longer get the attributes of the new shape you gain stuff from a list of powers which is quite huge(pounce,poison and a bunch of other things) and you do not change your natural attacks nor lose any form of movement which allows a lot of animals which were not interesting before.

[Florian]

Or using class features that gets you more natural attacks.
I think I like the new wild shape.
While you no longer get the attributes of the new shape you gain stuff from a list of powers which is quite huge(pounce,poison and a bunch of other things) and you do not change your natural attacks nor lose any form of movement which allows a lot of animals which were not interesting before.

The trick is to out-pace a dedicated TWF build or an Unchained Monk using Flurry. That only works with a very limited combination of race, class and feats and is mostly about turning "Pig People" into the equivalent of a WH40K Genestealer.

[jmelesky]

Not called out to be a polymorph effect nor a spell.[QUOTE]

Oh, but it is. Wild Shape includes the language "This ability functions like the beast shape I spell, except as noted here". The beast shape spells (and elemental body, and plant shape) are all transmutation (polymorph) spells.


[QUOTE=noob;22739410]It is described as a form but the fact it is a form does not necessarily means it is a polymorph effect nor that you can not add that form on top of another form.

And the Kraken Caller ability is called Wild Shape, called out as altering Wild Shape, and makes the language clear that it's normal Wild Shape, with some restrictions and additional benefits. Therefore it is also a polymorph effect.

[noob]

Wild shape is not a polymorph effect.
It allows to mimic beast shape which is one(since it is a spell with the polymorph descriptor) and it also allows to grow tentacles and it never says the latter is a polymorph effect.
It would be like saying "oh there is an alternate class feature which replace throw fireball with a class feature of the same name which allows to throw fire balls and ice balls so of course the ball of ice have the fire descriptor even if it is written nowhere that it does"
basically wild shape is a polymorph effect when it duplicate beast shape (or one of the other spells that have the polymorph sub type) but is does not when it does a different thing like throwing a fire ball.
The kraken caller allows to use wild shape either for mimicking beast shape or for growing tentacles but growing tentacles is never described as having the polymorph subtype unlike beast shape which haves it because it is a spell with that sub type.

[grarrrg]

Wild shape is not a polymorph effect.

Go back to my post, where the Polymorph rules say that Wild Shape is a Polymorph effect.
Here I'll even save you the trip:
"You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell."

It also doesn't make allowances for "Wild Shape that isn't quite Wild Shape".
And nothing in Kraken Caller suggests that it is an exemption from the default rules.