OOTS #1109 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Keltest]

Uh oh, Roy is thinking tactically again. Hopefully he got his head on a little straighter since that last ambush. That was embarrassing.

[Ted The Bug]

At least they know what to expect from their adversaries now.

[Curupira]

I for one approve the new genre-savvy Roy.

[Forikroder]

time to see how well durkula can count

[Slimmy]

Stop everything ! Durkon* is pulling a Nale !
Now let's hope it doesn't involve a family member this time.

[eilandesq]

This would be a nice time for V. to have Clairvoyance racked up, since the enemy is behind a closed door in a known location that is illuminated. It's not on either of V's prohibited lists, so it's just a matter of whether V. knows and has memorized it.

[SaintRidley]

time to see how well durkula can count

You can't see the target of your sending. He's not going to know Hilgya is there.

[Turin_19]

That last panel is great!!!

They know where they'll be, and that there'll be an ambush for them! And that they're focusing on Vaarsuvius!

[Great Dane]

Should the word be "hardiness"?

[Kish]

Should the word be "hardiness"?
If you were saying the sentence, sure, but since it's a perfectly valid sentence as-is there's no reason to change it.

[wingedcatgirl]

Well, I guess the last panel confirms that Greg doesn't know they've picked up a replacement divine spellcaster.

I mean, not sure why he would know that, but nonetheless it confirms that he doesn't.

[wumpus]

You can't see the target of your sending. He's not going to know Hilgya is there.

Is that why Hilgya never bothered with it? She wanted to see Durkon's reaction and "giving information to the enemy" without any return information would be a bad tactical move?

[Ornithologist]

The counting thing is about the 25 word limit on sending.

Also, I'm really worried that Roy and Elan are changing narrative places in the group.

Elan the straight man vs Roy up to his wacky Hi-jinks again!


... wow that was weird to write.

[Gift Jeraff]

25! 25 words! Ah ah ah ah ah ah!

[Hamste]

Learning things like that symbol of death is why I love divination.

[Mic_128]

I actually thought that was Eugine for a half-second there. It's been a while since he popped in.

[PH7]

So little Kudzu is seeing his father for the first time ever in panel 4, right?

[oonker]

It's a shame that Durkula just used 5000 diamond dust to ower up this symbol of death spell. Oh, well, it's not like they would need diamond to cast a ressurrection, after Durkula's body is destroyed.

[KorvinStarmast]

Thank you, Giant.

The back and forth between Blackwing and Belkar got a grin out of me. :smallbiggrin: (Panel 10)


Belkar: Good, cause tracking is a lot harder without a trail of corpses.
Blackwing: Is that why you're always leaving one behind you?
Belkar: Sure

Prediction. Bloodfeast triggers the symbol, somehow. He's hearty and hardy, both. :smallcool:

[CoffeeIncluded]

Okay, how do you bypass a symbol of death?

[eilandesq]

Okay, how do you bypass a symbol of death?

Don't look at it (or do any of several other things that will probably involve more effort than looking at it), or stay more than 60 feet away from it (if possible):



http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfDeath.htm

Also, V. would have a good chance of removing it harmlessly with a Greater Dispel Magic.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Don't look at it (or do any of several other things that will probably involve more effort than looking at it), or stay more than 60 feet away from it (if possible):



http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfDeath.htm

Also, if I'm reading the link right, you could:


Cover it.
Send someone with more than 150 HP to activate it, then wait 10 minutes for the effect to end


But of the possible triggers, the only one that is likely to have been used is "looking at it", so avoiding doing that might be enough.

Triggers:
look at the rune
read the rune
touch the rune
pass over the rune
pass through a portal bearing the rune

The last two don't apply, and the other three can all be avoided by not looking at the rune.

So maybe don hats with large visors.

GW

[eilandesq]

Also, if I'm reading the link right, you could:


Cover it.
Send someone with more than 150 HP to activate it, then wait 10 minutes for the effect to end


GW

Not by default:

The symbol of death affects the closest creatures first, skipping creatures with too many hit points to affect.

[. . .]


As a default, a symbol of death is triggered whenever a creature does one or more of the following, as you select: looks at the rune; reads the rune; touches the rune; passes over the rune; or passes through a portal bearing the rune. Regardless of the trigger method or methods chosen, a creature more than 60 feet from a symbol of death can’t trigger it (even if it meets one or more of the triggering conditions, such as reading the rune). Once the spell is cast, a symbol of death’s triggering conditions cannot be changed.

[. . .]

Throwing a cover over a symbol of death to render it inoperative triggers it if the symbol reacts to touch.

All of Durkula's allies are immune to death magic (being vampires), so he would have no reason to remove any of the triggering conditions. The dialogue suggests that Roy has enough HP to be immune to the symbol, so he could theoretically cover it without triggering it, but if he was wounded below 150 HP he would run the risk of being vulnerable to it.

[Douglas]

Also, if I'm reading the link right, you could:


Cover it.
Send someone with more than 150 HP to activate it, then wait 10 minutes for the effect to end


But of the possible triggers, the only one that is likely to have been used is "looking at it", so avoiding doing that might be enough.

Triggers:
look at the rune
read the rune
touch the rune
pass over the rune
pass through a portal bearing the rune

The last two don't apply, and the other three can all be avoided by not looking at the rune.

So maybe don hats with large visors.

GW
None of that would prevent one of the vampires from triggering it intentionally.

[dmc91356]

Presumably, all the Hilgya alignment followers will pick up on the "Anarchic" water reference . . .

[Lord Torath]

This is where they have everyone hang back, and have Elan send an illusion of the party into the room while Hilgya readies Greater Dispel Magic and V readies Fireball to go off after Hilgya's Dispel...

Thanks, Giant!

[TerrickTerran]

Looks like Durkula is channeling his inner Xykon.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

None of that would prevent one of the vampires from triggering it intentionally.

Activating it with a >150 HP and waiting would work, wouldn't it? I mean, it'd be suicide in the current circumstances, but theoretically, it would, right?

GW

[2D8HP]

Something must be wrong with my genre savvy.

"Hello Roy" took me totally by surprise (I'd make a terrible Bard).

:redface:

[Lheticus]

25! 25 words! Ah ah ah ah ah ah!

DANGIT! You already thought of that!

[Shining Wrath]

I don't think Durkula's sending will be able to discern Hilgya and the scrying bowl - at least, I hope not. And it's nice to know about the symbol of death; I'm sure that V can think of a way to neutralize that. I just hope the baby doesn't look at it; that would be rather grim.

I note that it's anarchic water, confirming that Hilgya (and presumably Loki) is more chaotic than evil. Or at least wants to present themselves as such to the Order.

[eilandesq]

It's going to be a sad moment if Durkula manages to use Sending far, far more efficiently than Durkon himself did even allowing for villain gloating. Just another gut punch for poor trapped Durkon. :-(

[Doug Lampert]

Greater Scrying makes Hilgya level 13+, so powerful enough to make a real difference.

Which means her turning check should have killed vampire spawn.

[DaOldeWolf]

I wonder what spell Durkon casted. A shame V didnt see what was going on. Definitely foreshadowing for things to come.

[eilandesq]

Activating it with a >150 HP and waiting would work, wouldn't it? I mean, it'd be suicide in the current circumstances, but theoretically, it would, right?

GW

No:



The symbol of death affects the closest creatures first, skipping creatures with too many hit points to affect.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfDeath.htm

[Goremplotz]

V is referring to Elan only as "the bard". That betrays surprisingly little respect, or does it?

[Shining Wrath]

One way to take out the Symbol of Death; send in a volunteer who dies to trigger it, and then promise to resurrect them afterward, if possible.

[arimareiji]

Looks like Durkula is channeling his inner Xykon.

Not true - he remembered Roy's name. (^_~)

[Darth Paul]

:belkar: Tracking is a lot harder without a trail of corpses...

This explains a LOT about Belkar's wilderness survival skills.

And then the villain shows up to begin the ritual taunting, right on cue.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

No:



The symbol of death affects the closest creatures first, skipping creatures with too many hit points to affect.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfDeath.htm

Again: the 150 hp guy is alone (anyone else stays 60 feet away, or something). If the symbol has no targets, it remains active, for 10 minutes, then ends its effects. Therefore, if 150HP guy activates it alone, that disarms the thing.

GW

[eilandesq]

Greater Scrying makes Hilgya level 13+, so powerful enough to make a real difference.

Which means her turning check should have killed vampire spawn.

Also:

--Durkula doesn't know she's there, and has planned for a party without a medium to high level cleric (the escaped vampires know that *a* cleric helped drive them off, but no specifics as to power level, and Durkula would have no real reason to know that Durkon knew her);
--Durkula can't see anyone but Roy per how Sending works, and will therefore not get a clue that way;
--Durkula is in a sealed room behind stone walls and a heavy door, so even if Hilgya reacts angrily that shouldn't give it away;
--Durkula won't even know who Hilgya is or that she slept with Durkon unless he happened to look at the specific memories involving her, which seems unlikely (but not impossible).

[Shining Wrath]

Greater Scrying is level 7 for clerics, so Hilgya is at least level 13. That would make her almost a match for Durkon, if not for Durkula. The Crystal-Haley nemesis rules are in effect; Hilgya must have kept up with Durkon prior to his vampirization even while pregnant.

Of course, she might be level 20. Unlikely that she's higher level than Durkon was, but it cannot be ruled out.

[brian 333]

Guys, the symbol is a McGuffin.

It has no magic properties. As I said earlier, Durkula will only be seen when and where he wants to be, so he has staged a monumental distraction to prevent the disruption of his plan. The OoTS should stay on target, which is saving the council, rather than waste their time chasing Durkon around Dwarftown.

A question of an OOC nature: How many vampires can D raise with his speedy vampire spell? How many castings at what spell level? There are a crapload of vampires created in a short amount of time, thus depleting Durkula's spells per day by that much. Add a Symbol spell and that's another empty slot until tomorrow.

Given this, it is apparent D is using the magic of his minions to deplete the resources of The OoTS. So, as long as they are waiting for him in the dining hall, it makes sense to not go there and let them succeed. They won't be going anywhere while waiting for the trap to spring, so don't spring it and force them to stay put and do nothing.

Instead, I'd send Paladin Girl to warn the kingdom to stay out of the way, then march on the council chambers and set traps for the spell-depleted Durkula.

Another issue occurred to me a while back, which is that upon vampirization the clan chiefs will cease to be the clan chiefs, instead becoming their vampire negative energy spirit. Simply vamping the council will result in a requirement for their subordinates to assume command, gather, and vote. So vamping the council is a waste of time. Hel needs to break the deadlock, which means forcing the still living council to vote to destroy the world and subject all dwarven souls still alive to her dominion.

Gah! Rich, you give me headaches! But I love your comic for that. I can't wait for the next page! (We'll, history shows I can, and will.)

[Lord Torath]

I wonder what spell Durkon casted. A shame V didnt see what was going on. Definitely foreshadowing for things to come.Pretty sure it was "Sending" :smallamused:


Another issue occurred to me a while back, which is that upon vampirization the clan chiefs will cease to be the clan chiefs, instead becoming their vampire negative energy spirit. Simply vamping the council will result in a requirement for their subordinates to assume command, gather, and vote. So vamping the council is a waste of time. Hel needs to break the deadlock, which means forcing the still living council to vote to destroy the world and subject all dwarven souls still alive to her dominion.I think the plan is to use Vampiric Domination to make the council chiefs vote for World Destruction.

[KorvinStarmast]

:belkar: This explains a LOT about Belkar's wilderness survival skills. As to his animal handling skills and Bloodfeast, my scan of the SRD finds that if Bloodfeast is a T Rex, he's got too many HP to trigger the symbol (as the usual amounts is 180). I thought he was a allosaurus, but I did not find that dinosaur type in the SRD.

[eilandesq]

Again: the 150 hp guy is alone (anyone else stays 60 feet away, or something). If the symbol has no targets, it remains active, for 10 minutes, then ends its effects. Therefore, if 150HP guy activates it alone, that disarms the thing.

GW

If Roy doesn't leave the room after triggering it, he will be attacked by every vampire in that room, and if he even momentarily goes below 150 HP from negative levels or spell damage the symbol will attack him. If he does leave the room, Durkula is free to do all of the things that a level 15+ caster is capable of without interference. This is unlikely to be helpful to Team Good.

[arimareiji]

Another issue occurred to me a while back, which is that upon vampirization the clan chiefs will cease to be the clan chiefs, instead becoming their vampire negative energy spirit.

Didn't Jerkon already tell Roy the plan was to dominate them? Not that he's obliged to be truthful, but it makes more sense.

Edit: Argh, ninjaed. I don't type nearly fast enough.

[Lord Torath]

None of these vampires have coffins, yet right? Not even Durkon*/Greg/Durkula? So luring them all to the center of the room (with an Elan-provided illusion of Roy, V, and Belkar) then pelting them with a Greater Dispel Magic, Quickened Fireball, and Flamestrike could wipe out many of the Spawn, and possibly even some of the higher-level Vamps - permanently.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

If Roy doesn't leave the room after triggering it, he will be attacked by every vampire in that room, and if he even momentarily goes below 150 HP from negative levels or spell damage the symbol will attack him. If he does leave the room, Durkula is free to do all of the things that a level 15+ caster is capable of without interference. This is unlikely to be helpful to Team Good.

Again: I already said i'd be suicide in these circumstances. The question was if it is theoretically doable, not if it will work specifically here.

GW

[dmc91356]

My D&D days are long behind me, but are vampires immune to illusions or will some sort of illusion plan actually have a chance of succeeding?

[Keltest]

My D&D days are long behind me, but are vampires immune to illusions or will some sort of illusion plan actually have a chance of succeeding?

As undead, they are immune to all forms of mind-affecting magic, which includes most illusions. I think there are a small number in some obscure sourcebooks that are not mind-affecting, but those are unlikely to be available to the Order.

[brian 333]

Pretty sure it was "Sending" :smallamused:

I think the plan is to use Vampiric Domination to make the council chiefs vote for World Destruction.

And thus you encounter the exact same issue. The votes won't be made by the chiefs but by the dominator with the chiefs as unwilling observers.

[AutomatedTeller]

Is this the first time the party has actually tried to learn something about an encounter before just barging in?

Not much in the way of jokes, but not every comic has to be awesomely funny. And "Hello, Roy" was well placed ;)

[are]

I notice Belkar is conspicuously absent from the list of possible targets of Symbol of Death.

Dramatic sacrifice imminent?

[brian 333]

Pretty sure it was "Sending" :smallamused:

I think the plan is to use Vampiric Domination to make the council chiefs vote for World Destruction.

And thus you encounter the exact same issue. The votes won't be made by the chiefs but by the dominator with the chiefs as unwilling observers.

[137beth]

Looks like HPoH is the new Nale:smallbiggrin:

[Keltest]

I notice Belkar is conspicuously absent from the list of possible targets of Symbol of Death.

Dramatic sacrifice imminent?

As a ranger/barbarian, he likely has enough hit points to not be threatened by the Symbol. He could potentially also have enough of a fortitude save to not be affected at all.

[Thaumic]

I wonder what spell Durkon casted. A shame V didnt see what was going on. Definitely foreshadowing for things to come.

I think the spell was supposed to be the Sending, considering the timing.

[Stabbey]

Hmmm... I'm not sure exactly what the pun in the title "Spy Bowl" is.

Also I got my calendar today, hooray! And... "wight whale"? *groan*

[eilandesq]

Hmmm... I'm not sure exactly what the pun in the title "Spy Bowl" is.

Also I got my calendar today, hooray! And... "wight whale"? *groan*

Hilgya's scrying device, which uses water to create a reflective viewing surface (Galadriel-style, though less fancy).

[goodpeople25]

Greater Scrying makes Hilgya level 13+, so powerful enough to make a real difference.

Which means her turning check should have killed vampire spawn.
So what would her effective turning level(s) need to be to turn and not destroy them? Just a thought but we already are possibly off book with her turning at all and I believe a reduced turning level has more precedent than losing the destroy property.

[ackmondual]

A great battle is yet to come, but at least we get to see a battle of wits in the next strip :smallcool:

[Kish]

So what would her effective turning level(s) need to be to turn and not destroy them? Just a thought but we already are possibly off book with her turning at all and I believe a reduced turning level has more precedent than losing the destroy property.
How about "they were vampires, not vampire spawn"?

(Anticipating the next question: vampires can have any number of hit dice, depending on their own character level, and thus the level to turn or destroy them is individual.)

[b_jonas]

None of that would prevent one of the vampires from triggering it intentionally. Yup. The vampires could just stay there and deliberately trigger the symbol when Vaarsuvius or Haley comes close. The vampires wouldn't even be harmed by the symbol, because they're undead, and so immune to any effects that require a fortitude save, and the symbol does require a fortitude save.


Cover it.
Send someone with more than 150 HP to activate it, then wait 10 minutes for the effect to end
Does covering work still after the symbol was triggered? Yes, GW, I believe the second method would work in theory.

[SilverCacaobean]

I hope Minrah isn't just here to get killed to legitimize the thread these adversaries pose, but I can't see anyone else dying...

[Fish]

As undead, they are immune to all forms of mind-affecting magic, which includes most illusions. I think there are a small number in some obscure sourcebooks that are not mind-affecting, but those are unlikely to be available to the Order.
False. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0895.html) We can see that undead are not automatically immune to illusions; even Malack needed True Seeing to see what Durkula could not.

[D.One]

Pretty sure it was "Sending" :smallamused:

I think the plan is to use Vampiric Domination to make the council chiefs vote for World Destruction.

That's what I understood too. Which brings me to the following question: why such an important voting apparently doesn't take any precautions against one (or more) of the voters being dominated by an external force? I mean, there must be means of detecting the domination, that could be used before each vote. Even more, in the present situation, Greg anounced what he intended to do. If the order warns the dwarves (why hasn't anyone in the temple sent a Sending?), why don't the simply make the voting inside the area of a Magic Circle against Evil/Chaos/Law/Good?


(Anticipating the next question: vampires can have any number of hit dice, depending on their own character level, and thus the level to turn or destroy them is individual.)

Any number of Hit Dice above 4. And +4 Turn Resistance.

[goodpeople25]

How about "they were vampires, not vampire spawn"?

(Anticipating the next question: vampires can have any number of hit dice, depending on their own character level, and thus the level to turn or destroy them is individual.)
Yes? It was just meant to be a specific thought of mine. And just as a possibility I never meant to discount any other possibilities nor advocate it as likely or ideal, ect.

Edit And your anticipation would be wrong. I was asking about turning for my specific post due to it being rather integral and not being 100% on the exact mechanics.

[D.One]

As undead, they are immune to all forms of mind-affecting magic, which includes most illusions. I think there are a small number in some obscure sourcebooks that are not mind-affecting, but those are unlikely to be available to the Order.

Figments, Glamers and Shadows aren't, by default, Mind-Affecting (at least, not in a way that undead are immune to). The plan presented relies on a Figment (such as Major Image or another low level illusion), so the undead wouldn't be immune to it.

[Fyraltari]

Guys, the symbol is a McGuffin.

It has no magic properties. As I said earlier, Durkula will only be seen when and where he wants to be, so he has staged a monumental distraction to prevent the disruption of his plan. The OoTS should stay on target, which is saving the council, rather than waste their time chasing Durkon around Dwarftown.

A question of an OOC nature: How many vampires can D raise with his speedy vampire spell? How many castings at what spell level? There are a crapload of vampires created in a short amount of time, thus depleting Durkula's spells per day by that much. Add a Symbol spell and that's another empty slot until tomorrow.

Given this, it is apparent D is using the magic of his minions to deplete the resources of The OoTS. So, as long as they are waiting for him in the dining hall, it makes sense to not go there and let them succeed. They won't be going anywhere while waiting for the trap to spring, so don't spring it and force them to stay put and do nothing.

Instead, I'd send Paladin Girl to warn the kingdom to stay out of the way, then march on the council chambers and set traps for the spell-depleted Durkula.

Another issue occurred to me a while back, which is that upon vampirization the clan chiefs will cease to be the clan chiefs, instead becoming their vampire negative energy spirit. Simply vamping the council will result in a requirement for their subordinates to assume command, gather, and vote. So vamping the council is a waste of time. Hel needs to break the deadlock, which means forcing the still living council to vote to destroy the world and subject all dwarven souls still alive to her dominion.

Gah! Rich, you give me headaches! But I love your comic for that. I can't wait for the next page! (We'll, history shows I can, and will.)


And thus you encounter the exact same issue. The votes won't be made by the chiefs but by the dominator with the chiefs as unwilling observers.


They don't know where the clan elders are right now, just that they will be in the meeting hall by midmorning at which point either Durkula will be there or they will be dominated already. Stopping him right now is the most sensible thing to do. Especially since should they just manage to protect the Elders but not end him he'd go on a murder spree just to be an ass.

Howcould Durkula be seen only when he wants to, he has no way of knowing when he is scryed on has he? And he can't block it other than by making a successful save right?

The clan elders would be the one voting whether they are dominated or not, why they vote what they vote, even if they are dominated, is their problem, and I suspect that if Dvalin is lawful enough to go through this for these stakes rather than break his oath, he is lawful enough to obey their vote even if he notices their domination.

Also Durk' vamped his troops yesterday. He is at full clerical power now.


None of these vampires have coffins, yet right? Not even Durkon*/Greg/Durkula? So luring them all to the center of the room (with an Elan-provided illusion of Roy, V, and Belkar) then pelting them with a Greater Dispel Magic, Quickened Fireball, and Flamestrike could wipe out many of the Spawn, and possibly even some of the higher-level Vamps - permanently.

I suspect Jerkon used one of the Mechane's crate to make a dwarf-sized coffin and will try to escape by there.


Could the rune be destroyed be a fireball or the like?

Edit :

That's what I understood too. Which brings me to the following question: why such an important voting apparently doesn't take any precautions against one (or more) of the voters being dominated by an external force? I mean, there must be means of detecting the domination, that could be used before each vote. Even more, in the present situation, Greg anounced what he intended to do. If the order warns the dwarves (why hasn't anyone in the temple sent a Sending?), why don't the simply make the voting inside the area of a Magic Circle against Evil/Chaos/Law/Good?

Nitick, Greg did not announce what he planned, ExaarghHamerfallen did to Durkula's discontent.
For why no one in the temple Sended a warning : either all three of them are too low levzl for that (not a D&D player speaking) or, more likely, none of them prepared it today. Would you if you expecting just another regular day indoor?

For why the council is not prepared, well I guess this will be explained later but in the meantime I could suggest : general lack of dwarven magic users, apart from Clerics we haven't seen any and/or since this councli is not the parliament anymore they are very low on the security to save on funds. I admit that this is really weak but that's all I got.

[Manty5]

First, let me point out that the symbol lasts not 10 minutes, but 10 minutes PER CASTER LEVEL. That's a long time. Not even fortunate fate would save someone from a straight-out death effect. Maybe if V could cast greater dispel at an angle to the door where she can see the floor NEAR the symbol but not the symbol itself...

Also, let me point out that Durkula CAN fail a save versus scry intentionally. Isn't it odd that durkula's most important preparations occur right after the scrying attempt? He knows there's a cleric that can turn undead and therefore can also scry, so he may be leaving traps, making orders, then sending to convince Roy to assault a place that he's already abandoned (or left his flunkies at for a diversion) to go dominate the elders whole the OOTS goes to the trapped room.

[Shining Wrath]

First, let me point out that the symbol lasts not 10 minutes, but 10 minutes PER CASTER LEVEL. That's a long time. Not even fortunate fate would save someone from a straight-out death effect. Maybe if V could cast greater dispel at an angle to the door where she can see the floor NEAR the symbol but not the symbol itself...

Also, let me point out that you CAN fail a save versus scry intentionally. Isn't it odd that durkula's most important preparations occur right after the scrying attempt? He knows there's a cleric that can turn undead and therefore can also scry, so he may be leaving traps, making orders, then sending to convince Roy to assault a place that he's already abandoned (or left his flunkies at for a diversion) to go dominate the elders whole the OOTS goes to the trapped room.

It's a little risky, though, to assume that the scrying will occur just as he does certain things / issues certain orders. What if the Order is disorderly and doesn't scry until 5 minutes later?

[a1chemi]

Howcould Durkula be seen only when he wants to, he has no way of knowing when he is scryed on has he? And he can't block it other than by making a successful save right?



He would only know he was scryed on if he made his will save and used spellcraft to determine the spell used. He failed his save cuz they saw him so he has no idea.

He has no options available to him to block the scrying. A scry proof location is pretty much the only thing that could work and I imagine those are hard to find in Firmament and heavily warded/defended if they even exist.

[Sebastian]

One way to take out the Symbol of Death; send in a volunteer who dies to trigger it, and then promise to resurrect them afterward, if possible.

Would a summoned creature work? does Roy still have his bag of tricks?

[brian 333]

Nondetection is a spell available to rangers and arcane casters. It can easily be placed on a ring or other item, and is specifically proof against scrying. It is but one method of preventing scrying.

Durkula has, according to Hilgya, been pushing back scrying attempts. He wouldn't be worth his Spellcraft Check if he didn't notice her failures. One who is aware of a scrying attempt can stop it with a save, and even backtrack and identify the scryer if desired.

He has known it's Hilgya for a while now. He'd also be a fool to have done nothing to protect himself. We never saw him defeat the scrying attempts, so we never saw him do what he had to do to stop it, which may have been as simple for him as simply deciding to resist.

Scrying is not the perfect one way view players want it to be. Just ask Pippin Took.

[Manty5]

It's a little risky, though, to assume that the scrying will occur just as he does certain things / issues certain orders. What if the Order is disorderly and doesn't scry until 5 minutes later?

I'm sorry, my source for that info was what someone else on the forum said. The actual 3.x description simply says that will negates. What someone else said was that you could detect the attempt, with enough spellcasting skill know who made the attempt (but obviously he can guess who made the attempt), and then intentionally fail the attempt. Then since he knows someone's watching him, he can do things to lure Roy into a trap or perhaps just have Roy wait outside the area thinking he's blocking Durkula, who has actually already left.

I can find no source to back up this interpretation for scry failures. It's entirely possible I misremembered, and those rules apply to some other spell. I apologise.


Would a summoned creature work? does Roy still have his bag of tricks?
It would need to affect 150 HP worth of creatures to stop its effects. That's a LOT of ferrets.

[goodpeople25]

It's a little risky, though, to assume that the scrying will occur just as he does certain things / issues certain orders. What if the Order is disorderly and doesn't scry until 5 minutes later?
I don't disagree but he is sending the Order a message. That could give him some level of predication/control over what the Order does depending on the contents.

[Basement Cat]

Does Hilgya's spell give us any hint about her class level?

I wonder why Durkon never used a scrying spell like that. Avoiding plot spoilers, perhaps, but still...

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That's what I understood too. Which brings me to the following question: why such an important voting apparently doesn't take any precautions against one (or more) of the voters being dominated by an external force?

A vote to tell a minor deity what they need to support amongst all other minor deities is not "an important vote". The system was not designed with the foresight that one day the world would hang in the balance. It was probably not designed at all: Dvalin listened to the other clans when he was alive without regard to mental state of influencing magics, and he still does.

GW

[Manty5]

I wonder why Durkon never used a scrying spell like that.

We wouldn't know if he did unless Rich told us. The only party member with a decent spellcraft score is V.

EDIT: Would rebellious Mocha Lattes be made with Anarchic water?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0350.html

[Jaxzan Proditor]

It is entirely within the High Priest of Hel’s nature to gloat fiendishly, so really Roy probably should have seen that coming.

[Kantaki]

Nondetection is a spell available to rangers and arcane casters. It can easily be placed on a ring or other item, and is specifically proof against scrying. It is but one method of preventing scrying.

Durkula has, according to Hilgya, been pushing back scrying attempts. He wouldn't be worth his Spellcraft Check if he didn't notice her failures. One who is aware of a scrying attempt can stop it with a save, and even backtrack and identify the scryer if desired.

He has known it's Hilgya for a while now. He'd also be a fool to have done nothing to protect himself. We never saw him defeat the scrying attempts, so we never saw him do what he had to do to stop it, which may have been as simple for him as simply deciding to resist.

Scrying is not the perfect one way view players want it to be. Just ask Pippin Took.

What makes you think she ever scryed on Durkula?
For all we know she tried it on Durkon a few times, he kept resisting and eventually she stopped.
And from what Hylgia said the resistance is subconscious, so he wouldn't even notice.

Besides, even if she used it on Durkula or he noticed something in D's memory how should he know it's Hylgia?
Or care about her at all?
Some chick his host used to know is spying on him, so what?
Wouldn't be the first time he missed something important.

And comparing some run of the mill television spell with a set of very powerful artifacts explicitly designed to communicate with each other is seriously underselling the latter.
Even if Hylgia's improvised scrying pool worked like the palantir Durkula is no Sauron.
Sure, spying on a demi-god or even a powerful outsider like that is just asking for trouble, but a run of the mill vampire- even with cleric levels?
Maybe if he were vastly more powerful I would be concerned.

[TLucean]

Also, let me point out that Durkula CAN fail a save versus scry intentionally. Isn't it odd that durkula's most important preparations occur right after the scrying attempt?

Since the casting time of the Symbol is 10 minutes versus the casting time of Greater Scrying with 1 standard action and a duration measured in hours. So if he really is expecting someone to scry on him it would require much more effort to fool them.

[brian 333]

A vote to tell a minor deity what they need to support amongst all other minor deities is not "an important vote". The system was not designed with the foresight that one day the world would hang in the balance. It was probably not designed at all: Dvalin listened to the other clans when he was alive without regard to mental state of influencing magics, and he still does.

GW

Wait: if a puppet master causes his marionette to stab you in the eye, the puppet is to blame and the puppet master is guilt free? It is an extreme example, but the point is valid. The clan chiefs are supposed to vote, yes, but domination is a form of duress in the very best circumstances, and nothing said under duress can be binding. However, if they are compelled to vote against their will, then they didn't actually vote because they had no free choice, which is the definition of a vote.

Domination may be what Roy fears, but if That's Durkula's plan, it's got holes in it Elan could ride a chocobo through.

[TLucean]

Wait: if a puppet master causes his marionette to stab you in the eye, the puppet is to blame and the puppet master is guilt free? It is an extreme example, but the point is valid. The clan chiefs are supposed to vote, yes, but domination is a form of duress in the very best circumstances, and nothing said under duress can be binding. However, if they are compelled to vote against their will, then they didn't actually vote because they had no free choice, which is the definition of a vote.

Domination may be what Roy fears, but if That's Durkula's plan, it's got holes in it Elan could ride a chocobo through.

It would matter only when Dvalin knows about it and acts accordingly. If he just looks for the result and decides upon that it may be too late for lawyering to step in. Because the world would already be destroyed by then.

[JustinKase]

I actually thought that was Eugine for a half-second there. It's been a while since he popped in.

I had the same reaction.

[Fyraltari]

Wait: if a puppet master causes his marionette to stab you in the eye, the puppet is to blame and the puppet master is guilt free? It is an extreme example, but the point is valid. The clan chiefs are supposed to vote, yes, but domination is a form of duress in the very best circumstances, and nothing said under duress can be binding. However, if they are compelled to vote against their will, then they didn't actually vote because they had no free choice, which is the definition of a vote.

Domination may be what Roy fears, but if That's Durkula's plan, it's got holes in it Elan could ride a chocobo through.

So you've never herad of rigging a vote? The Clan Elder vote is irrelevant to the godsmoot only Dvalin's is. Dvalin is the one Durkula need to convince, not you, not us, not the dwarven population, only Dvalin. It only has to work for a few minutes even.

[knag]

Presumably, all the Hilgya alignment followers will pick up on the "Anarchic" water reference . . .

I'm surprised there is no discussion of this yet. It seems to lend weight to the theory that she's Chaotic Neutral, not Chaotic Evil.

[Manty5]

For the benefit of the discussion on scrying:


A symbol of death can be removed by a successful dispel magic targeted solely on the rune. An erase spell has no effect on a symbol of death. Destruction of the surface where a symbol of death is inscribed destroys the symbol but also triggers it.

Symbol of death can be made permanent with a permanency spell. A permanent symbol of death that is disabled or that has affected its maximum number of hit points becomes inactive for 10 minutes, then can be triggered again as normal.

Note: Magic traps such as symbol of death are hard to detect and disable. A rogue (only) can use the Search skill to find a symbol of death and Disable Device to thwart it. The DC in each case is 25 + spell level, or 33 for symbol of death.

So one valid strategy might be to send Haley in with greater invisibility.

[danielxcutter]

Hmm... We know that Mass Death Ward is unique to Durkon, but the standard version is still a thing. That plus a Restoration for V should help... And as you guys have pointed out, Hilgya is at least 13th level; more than enough to cast both if she prepared them.

[eilandesq]

Dumb question--since they know exactly where the vampires are and that the vote hasn't taken place yet, why don't they just dash off to where the meeting of the clan elders is being held and warn them exactly what is going on? We know that the vampires used the teleport orb to get there in the first place, so the only way they'd have to get to the meeting place would be misting or walking. Dvalin is apparently a dim bulb, but presumably if he was warned that such an attack was coming, he'd be quite capable of blasting Durkula and Company into oblivion, or simply delaying the vote while the threat existed.

[JustinKase]

Would a Death Ward 'heal' undead in the same way other negative energy spells do?

[brian 333]

The lawful demigod of a lawful society won't have time for lawyers? I would think he's already one of the best lawyers in the multiverse.

He is also a demigod. He would know the hearts of his followers before even asking their opinions, and if the two don't match he would have the power to discover why.

I may be off base because I can only guess what dwarven law could be, but mortals don't fool demigods very often. They can see right through mortals. Dvalin's high priest may not even consult his god before voting. Who knows at this point besides Rich?

But I don't buy the idea that Dvalin would be bound by a vote that is a product of divine interference by another deity.

[Fish]

If they know the vampires are going to attack the elf first:

disguise the members of the party using illusion so they choose the wrong "elf"
watch the vampires attack the wrong person
vampires realize their error and cast dispel
instant dinosaur

[Fyraltari]

The lawful demigod of a lawful society won't have time for lawyers? I would think he's already one of the best lawyers in the multiverse.

He is also a demigod. He would know the hearts of his followers before even asking their opinions, and if the two don't match he would have the power to discover why.

I may be off base because I can only guess what dwarven law could be, but mortals don't fool demigods very often. They can see right through mortals. Dvalin's high priest may not even consult his god before voting. Who knows at this point besides Rich?

But I don't buy the idea that Dvalin would be bound by a vote that is a product of divine interference by another deity.

What lawyer are you talking about? He asks them, they say "yes" he votes yes boom goes the world that's the plan.

Dvalin's high priest has no authority over anything, he serves as a glorified phone nothing more.

Dvalin is bound by nothing but what he decides binds him even Thor said none of this was necessary, so again to bad you are not Dvalin.

And I don't see why Dvalin would bother reading the mind of the Elders when he (thinks) he can just ask them their vote.

Hel knows Dvalin a thousand time better than any reader, if she says that this plan can work then the smart money says this plan can work.

[Rinazina]

Happy new year, Forum!

I guess I know the answer, but nobody said "Sending has 10 minutes casting time", I want to be that gnoll.

[elros]

I think sending has set up more punch lines than any other spell in this comic, right?

[Kish]

I'm surprised there is no discussion of this yet. It seems to lend weight to the theory that she's Chaotic Neutral, not Chaotic Evil.
No, it just lends weight to the theoryuncontested fact that she's Chaotic. There's no advantage to using moral-alignment water instead of ethical-alignment water.

[BLAHMASTER]

I'm still confused about the title. Spy Bowl is the bowl in the comic. Great. What am I missing?? This was already brought up, but I still don't get it.

[eilandesq]

I'm still confused about the title. Spy Bowl is the bowl in the comic. Great. What am I missing?? This was already brought up, but I still don't get it.

Look at the drawings closely--particularly the top row. A bowl is literally being used to cast the Greater Scrying spell and spy on Durkula and company.

[Rinazina]

I'm still confused about the title. Spy Bowl is the bowl in the comic. Great. What am I missing?? This was already brought up, but I still don't get it.

I guess: Bowl can recall the bowl of water used. and Bowl is also the suffix of some kind of "very expected match" (i.e. http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/cleganebowl ), in this case, a spying match

[LtPowers]

As to his animal handling skills and Bloodfeast, my scan of the SRD finds that if Bloodfeast is a T Rex, he's got too many HP to trigger the symbol (as the usual amounts is 180). I thought he was a allosaurus, but I did not find that dinosaur type in the SRD.

Bloodfeast has been baleful polymorphed into a lizard. I believe that changes his creature type to something other than a 150-HP dinosaur.


Powers &8^]

[BLAHMASTER]

Yeah, I see that. Is there a joke somewhere in there though?
Edit:
Ok, like the super bowl or rose bowl? Ok, the sending doesn't seem like much of a spying move to me, but ok. Thanks!

[Lord Torath]

I'm still confused about the title. Spy Bowl is the bowl in the comic. Great. What am I missing?? This was already brought up, but I still don't get it.Compare with the name of the remote-viewing tool, the Spy-glass.

[BLAHMASTER]

Ah, there we go, that's probably it. The comic is better than the title :p

[Lord Torath]

Ah, there we go, that's probably it. The comic is better than the title :pEh, they can't all be winners (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0370.html). :smallwink:

[Shining Wrath]

Would a summoned creature work? does Roy still have his bag of tricks?

Depends upon the trigger chosen by Durkula, but probably yes. And it'd be a wonderful throwback to earlier strips if the Bag of Tricks proved to be essential.


I don't disagree but he is sending the Order a message. That could give him some level of predication/control over what the Order does depending on the contents.

That's got to be his plan, but he could not have planned on them scrying him just before he sent the message without some serious causality issues.


Does Hilgya's spell give us any hint about her class level?

I wonder why Durkon never used a scrying spell like that. Avoiding plot spoilers, perhaps, but still...

At least 13.


I'm surprised there is no discussion of this yet. It seems to lend weight to the theory that she's Chaotic Neutral, not Chaotic Evil.

I did mention it in my first post.


If they know the vampires are going to attack the elf first:

disguise the members of the party using illusion so they choose the wrong "elf"
watch the vampires attack the wrong person
vampires realize their error and cast dispel
instant dinosaur

I like how you think.

Now, a question I haven't seen posed: why a Symbol of death on the ceiling?

[Chei]

V is referring to Elan only as "the bard". That betrays surprisingly little respect, or does it?

V has a habit of referring to people by their last name. Elan's last name hasn't been revealed, so he can't be referred to like Miss Starshine, Sir Greenhilt, or Master Thundershield. He ends up getting lumped in with 'the halfling', which does indeed seem disrespectful, given that V knows Belkar's last name.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Now, a question I haven't seen posed: why a Symbol of death on the ceiling?

Because, it has been suggested, it allows the vampires to set it off whenever they want by touching it.

GW

[Fyraltari]

Now, a question I haven't seen posed: why a Symbol of death on the ceiling?

If it can be activated just by someone being near (instead of actually touching it) It's better on the ceiling wheer fewer people would think to look.

[eilandesq]

Hmmm. (reads SRD spell description again). If a target makes its Fortitude save vs. the symbol of death, are those HP still deducted from the 150 total, or not? IMO one could read it either way, though as a DM I'd rule in favor of "the HP are burned regardless of the save" interpretation if forced to make a choice.

[Vessyra]

I think that Greg/Durkula put the symbol of death of the ceiling because:

-Vampires start dropping down from the ceiling
-OotS look up, notices symbol
-Greg/Durkula bursts out laughing

Also, given the size of the dining hall, and the fact that the meat shields people with hit points go first, Greg/Durkula needs to wait for the weaker party members, such as Vaarsuvius, to enter before the trap is spotted and activated.

Also, Greg/Durkula is level 15 now?

[eilandesq]

I think that Greg/Durkula put the symbol of death of the ceiling because:

-Vampires start dropping down from the ceiling
-OotS look up, notices symbol
-Greg/Durkula bursts out laughing

Also, given the size of the dining hall, and the fact that the meat shields people with hit points go first, Greg/Durkula needs to wait for the weaker party members, such as Vaarsuvius, to enter before the trap is spotted and activated.

Also, Greg/Durkula is level 15 now?

It certainly wouldn't be shocking--consider how many XP normal player characters would have received for accomplishing what he has as the only high level character in his party. The main objection to it would be if Malack had drained levels from him before turning him, and it looked like he went out of the way to avoid that.

[Kish]

It certainly wouldn't be shocking--consider how many XP normal player characters would have received for accomplishing what he has as the only high level character in his party. The main objection to it would be if Malack had drained levels from him before turning him, and it looked like he went out of the way to avoid that.
There's no question about that; we know there weren't 24 hours (or 24 seconds) between Durkon's fight with Malack and Durkon dying, so Durkon may have had any number of negative levels but didn't lose any of his levels.

[Anarion]

I quite like the layout for this comic. Using the bowl for scrying with repeated cutbacks to everyone in the room gathered around near it gives a good sense of the action and a bit of suspense as each action from Durkon comes through.

[JumboWheat01]

Villain taunting isn't just a rule, it's a literary law.

[schmunzel]

25! 25 words! Ah ah ah ah ah ah!

That were 7.

Wait do numbers count? ... 9!



I wonder what spell Durkon casted. A shame V didnt see what was going on. Definitely foreshadowing for things to come.

I would go so far as to *assume* it could have been sending :)

sch

[Alcore]

My D&D days are long behind me, but are vampires immune to illusions or will some sort of illusion plan actually have a chance of succeeding?

Only if the illusions affect the mind. Most illusions (which is not to be confused with the illusion school of magic) tend to physically make something outside the mind. Unless it carries the plane of shadow they are quite not-real and mindless undead will never make the save to disprove them.

An entire room of vampires? 5% baseline chance of one making the save and providing the others a bonus to the check.

[Jay R]

V is referring to Elan only as "the bard". That betrays surprisingly little respect, or does it?

No, it shows unsurprisingly little respect. Vaarsuvius only respects Intelligence. And on the Intelligence scale, Elan ranks somewhere between Brussels sprouts and Gilligan.

[He has many noble and transformative virtues. Intelligence is not one of them.]

[denthor]

A great battle is yet to come, but at least we get to see a battle of wits in the next strip :smallcool:

Or at half of them

[eilandesq]

*gasp* you mean she is not lawful good ??? damn it ... so presumably chaotic neutral then. I wont mark her as evil, but I do not see her being good.
That still leaves the question of Lokis alignment.

If Hilgya was chaotic evil, the most straightforward medium for her to have used would have been. . .wait for it. . .unholy water. The fact that The Giant went out of his way to create (as far as I know) a type of divine magicked water that is specifically obviously meant to be chaotic neutral and to have Hilgya use it by preference certainly points strongly to her being chaotic neutral, though it is certainly not conclusive (it could be a quirk of hers, or Loki could mandate it as the choice for his clerics regardless of their specific chaotic alignment).

[Jasdoif]

Hmmm. (reads SRD spell description again). If a target makes its Fortitude save vs. the symbol of death, are those HP still deducted from the 150 total, or not?150 is the measure in "affected 150 hit points' worth of creatures (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfDeath.htm)"; and being a "Fortitude negates" spell, creatures that make the Fortitude save aren't affected. Why would they count?

[eilandesq]

150 is the measure in "affected 150 hit points' worth of creatures (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfDeath.htm)"; and being a "Fortitude negates" spell, creatures that make the Fortitude save aren't affected. Why would they count?

It did "affect" them--it forced them to make a Fortitude save or die.

[Kish]

*gasp* you mean she is not lawful good ??? damn it ... so presumably chaotic neutral then. I wont mark her as evil, but I do not see her being good.
That still leaves the question of Lokis alignment.

If Hilgya was chaotic evil, the most straightforward medium for her to have used would have been. . .wait for it. . .unholy water. The fact that The Giant went out of his way to create (as far as I know) a type of divine magicked water that is specifically obviously meant to be chaotic neutral and to have Hilgya use it by preference certainly points strongly to her being chaotic neutral, though it is certainly not conclusive (it could be a quirk of hers, or Loki could mandate it as the choice for his clerics regardless of their specific chaotic alignment).
I think you greatly overrate "the letter of the rules only mentions water for two cardinal alignments."

Anarchic water isn't chaotic neutral any more than unholy water is neutral evil--it's just chaotic.

[Jasdoif]

It did "affect" them--it forced them to make a Fortitude save or die."Negates" on the saving throw line means they aren't affected if they make the save.


Negates
The spell has no effect on a subject that makes a successful saving throw.

[eilandesq]

I think you greatly overrate "the letter of the rules only mentions water for two cardinal alignments."

Anarchic water isn't chaotic neutral any more than unholy water is neutral evil--it's just chaotic.

That's what chaotic neutral is--it's a chaotic alignment with no good/evil element except for perhaps tendencies ("Of course not! This is absurd! I'm Chaotic Good! Ish!"). Certainly The Giant isn't being remotely unreasonable in extrapolating and creating such a substance for the OotSVerse, but there are literally no rules in the SRD (or 3.5 as a whole even including material not in the SRD, as far as I know) for what its properties are, and I would need to be pointed to any homebrewed rules for it, because I've never seen them (though I would not be surprised if they existed in multiple versions).

[eilandesq]

"Negates" on the saving throw line means they aren't affected if they make the save.



Except that a Fortitude save means they're actively resisting it (as opposed to, say, a Reflex save where they are partially or completely evading the effect--but even in that case they're having to *react* to it, which could reasonably be considered to be affecting them). It's a badly written description, and my inclination would be to interpret it in favor of the defender (The Giant, of course, will interpret it in the way that makes for the best story in his view, and he has done so in the past when the "bouncing ball with the symbol of insanity on it" situation came up during the invasion of Azure City).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That's what chaotic neutral is--it's a chaotic alignment with no good/evil element except for perhaps tendencies ("Of course not! This is absurd! I'm Chaotic Good! Ish!"). Certainly The Giant isn't being remotely unreasonable in extrapolating and creating such a substance for the OotSVerse, but there are literally no rules in the SRD (or 3.5 as a whole even including material not in the SRD, as far as I know) for what its properties are, and I would need to be pointed to any homebrewed rules for it, because I've never seen them (though I would not be surprised if they existed in multiple versions).

OotS is not using only the SRD material. It seems anarchic water is found in the planar handbook and spell compendium - page 75 of the former, if this (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/spells/planar-handbook--79/anarchic-water--2193/index.html) is to be believed.

As to your conclusion that she must be Chaotic Neutral, I fail to see why that must be the case. If she had used unholy water, no-one would conclude that "she must be Neutral Evil". Same thing applies here.

GW

[Jasdoif]

and my inclination would be to interpret it in favor of the defenderHm. Simply declaring it in favor of the defender would be less ambiguous on your part.

[eilandesq]

OotS is not using only the SRD material. It seems anarchic water is found in the planar handbook and spell compendium - page 75 of the former, if this (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/spells/planar-handbook--79/anarchic-water--2193/index.html) is to be believed.

As to your conclusion that she must be Chaotic Neutral, I fail to see why that must be the case. If she had used unholy water, no-one would conclude that "she must be Neutral Evil". Same thing applies here.

GW

If you read what I actually wrote, I wasn't saying she *must* be chaotic neutral--I was saying that it was the best evidence produced so far that she *might* be. I also provided two possible explanations for how she could possibly not be chaotic neutral and still choose to use the anarchic water.

Thanks for the find on the prior occurrences for anarchic water--I have at least one of those books in a box somewhere, but don't remember ever seeing that reference.

[JustinKase]

I think sending has set up more punch lines than any other spell in this comic, right?

I prepared Explosive Runes this morning....

[Grey_Wolf_c]

If you read what I actually wrote, I wasn't saying she *must* be chaotic neutral--I was saying that it was the best evidence produced so far that she *might* be.

It still does not follow. Anarchic water only establishes that she is chaotic - something that very few people doubted. It does not give any indication of where she falls in the Good-Evil line. Also, I politely direct you to the forum rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1).

GW

[eilandesq]

Hm. Simply declaring it in favor of the defender would be less ambiguous on your part.


"Of course. How wrong of me to choose my own words." -- Rupert Giles, from "A New Man" (Buffy The Vampire Slayer, season 4, episode 12).

[Jasdoif]

It still does not follow. Anarchic water only establishes that she is chaotic - something that very few people doubted. It does not give any indication of where she falls in the Good-Evil line.That could be the exact purpose, in fact: intentionally not indicating if Hilgya/Loki are Good/Evil.

[eilandesq]

It still does not follow. Anarchic water only establishes that she is chaotic - something that very few people doubted. It does not give any indication of where she falls in the Good-Evil line. Also, I politely direct you to the forum rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1).

GW

Fair enough. I will simply note that your statement is literally factually wrong (for the reasons I stated), since it is inconsistent with what I actually wrote, for reasons that I will have to simply privately speculate about.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That could be the exact purpose, in fact: intentionally not indicating if Hilgya/Loki are Good/Evil.

I suppose it could be. Does unholy water heal or in any other way enhance the undead? It could just be a reasonable strategic decision when confronting vampires. And even if it doesn't, given Loki's attitude towards undead, he may prefer his clerics to NOT use necromancy spells such as Curse Water when another option is available.

GW

[Jasdoif]

I suppose it could be. Does unholy water heal or in any other way enhance the undead? It could just be a reasonable strategic decision when confronting vampires. And even if it doesn't, given Loki's attitude towards undead, he may prefer his clerics to NOT use necromancy spells such as Curse Water when another option is available.Well, unholy water damages good outsiders (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/curseWater.htm) but has no listed effect on undead. The description implies an association with negative energy, though, which is more often associated with undead.

At the same time, Hilgya calls Loki "God of Flames and Chaos (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0052.html)"; Hilgya or Loki could feel anarchic water is the appropriate choice...and allow the Giant to dodge Good/Evil implications while doing it.

And the two are not exclusive.

[arimareiji]

If they know the vampires are going to attack the elf first:

disguise the members of the party using illusion so they choose the wrong "elf"
watch the vampires attack the wrong person
vampires realize their error and cast dispel
instant dinosaur

This would make for a great twist if the room were big enough to hold Bloodfeast.

[Kish]

Unholy water doesn't heal the undead, any more than holy water heals the living; either would make them substantially more powerful than they're meant to be.

[8BitNinja]

Something about the fact that Roy rightfully expects every villain to have the deadly sin of pride as a weakness makes me laugh.

[KillingAScarab]

I'm still confused about the title. Spy Bowl is the bowl in the comic. Great. What am I missing?? This was already brought up, but I still don't get it.
Compare with the name of the remote-viewing tool, the Spy-glass.Which, honestly, makes me think more of a They Might Be Giants song (http://tmbw.net/wiki/Lyrics:Spy) than the item (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0423.html) in the Player's Handbook.

[gerryq]

I for one approve the new genre-savvy Roy.

EVERYONE is genre-savvy now.

Personally, I blame Tarquin.

[Kish]

EVERYONE is genre-savvy now.

Personally, I blame Tarquin.
And by "now" you mean since here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html)?

[brian 333]

This is also American Football's playoff season, and at the collegiate level, (university teams,) post season games are termed Bowls after the famous Rose Bowl and Sugar Bowl games.

Thus, Spy Bowl may also refer to setting up the 'big game' to come as well as the obvious reference to the scrying device.

I think Rich likes onion lasagna. He seems to be fond of layers!

[LeMooseImperium]

Presumably, all the Hilgya alignment followers will pick up on the "Anarchic" water reference . . .

She's DEFINITELY lawful good. Obviously. :)

[Psychronia]

Wow, okay. I admit it. Hilga's fancy spell helped our group locate Durkula's location a whole 2 minutes before the usual way.

Can't argue with results.

So this is the part where we get another badass turnabout like Roy's ambush on Tarquin's Nale's team, right?

Ooo...I'm also kinda hoping Roy uses those few reply words to let Durkon know his exile is over. While I doubt it'll be something as smooth as Durkon winning the battle from inside Durkula with the power of hope and joy, he really could use some good news after all that's been going on.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

While we’re weighing in on the title, I originally assumed it was a pun on the phrase “scrying bowl”. I guess if that were the case it’d probably be “Spying Bowl” instead, however.

[GregTD]

Bloodfeast has been baleful polymorphed into a lizard. I believe that changes his creature type to something other than a 150-HP dinosaur.

From the SRD:

You change the subject into a Small or smaller animal of no more than 1 HD (such as a dog, lizard, monkey, or toad). The subject takes on all the statistics and special abilities of an average member of the new form in place of its own except as follows:

The target retains its own hit points.
The target is treated as having its normal Hit Dice for purpose of adjudicating effects based on HD, such as the sleep spell, though it uses the new form’s base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and all other statistics derived from Hit Dice.
With those exceptions, the target’s normal game statistics are replaced by those of the new form. The target loses all the special abilities it has in its normal form, including its class features.

...
If the subject remains in the new form for 24 consecutive hours, it must attempt a Will save. If this save fails, it loses its Hit Dice and hit points change to match an average creature of its new form. These abilities and statistics return to normal if the effect is later ended.


So if Bloodfeast made the save, then it still has all its hit points

[Rogar Demonblud]

This would make for a great twist if the room were big enough to hold Bloodfeast.

It's a feasting hall. There's room to spare.

[Cavenskull]

V has a habit of referring to people by their last name. Elan's last name hasn't been revealed, so he can't be referred to like Miss Starshine, Sir Greenhilt, or Master Thundershield. He ends up getting lumped in with 'the halfling', which does indeed seem disrespectful, given that V knows Belkar's last name.

For what it's worth, "the Bard" practically is Elan's last name. He's even introduced as "Elan the Bard" on the cast page.

[arimareiji]

It's a feasting hall. There's room to spare.

Then I guess the important question becomes: Which works faster, vampire regeneration or acid damage from being in a dinosaur's stomach? (^_~)

~~~~~~~~~~

A thought occurs to me about Belkar; my apologies if it's been pointed out 1500 times before: Vampires don't breathe. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html) (They can imitate it, but it sounds like badly-played bagpipes.)

[SilverCacaobean]

I think Hilgya choosing anarchic water instead of the good-evil equivalent fits. Personally I think she's Evil but based on other Neutral characters on the strip like Therkla who was an assassin and the bounty hunters, she could easily be Neutral.

But either way, she'd choose to make anarchic water because she chooses to be free and chaotic and is actively trying to be chaotic, while she hasn't shown to be so passionate about any evil she has done. So even if she's more evil than she's chaotic, I think she'd still choose to make anarchic water because chaotic is what we've been show she's trying to be (and succeeding), while most her evil is a result of her not caring at all about hurting others.

Also what others have said about Loki and negative energy makes sense.

By the way, if Greg gains a level does Durkon get to keep it if he gets resurrected?

[Talion]

It's a feasting hall. There's room to spare.

Don't you mean a Bloodfeasting hall? :smallbiggrin:

[KorvinStarmast]

Don't you mean a Bloodfeasting hall? :smallbiggrin: This all seems to be setting up for another punny comic strip title when Bloodfeast returns to his more awesome form. You have vampires who feast on blood, the feasting hall, and Bloodfeast the dinosaur ... lots of possibilities.

[warmachine]

It is, of course, stupid to fight an enemy on their terms. Roy knows the vampires are trying to take over the dwarf council but they can't do that in the feasting hall. Just wait for the council and the vampires will be forced to exit the hall.

[b_jonas]

Which brings me to the following question: why such an important voting apparently doesn't take any precautions against one (or more) of the voters being dominated by an external force? I mean, there must be means of detecting the domination, that could be used before each vote. Even more, in the present situation, Greg anounced what he intended to do. If the order warns the dwarves (why hasn't anyone in the temple sent a Sending?), why don't the simply make the voting inside the area of a Magic Circle against Evil/Chaos/Law/Good? Sure there is. And OotS has mentioned several times just how unrealiable those methods are.
Interesting fact: Did you know there is at least one aristocrat-friendly prestige class that grants the extraordniary ability to fool magical lie detection? (Kubota in #595) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0595.html)
Roy: Six months?? Geez, why not just cast a few divinations to determine their guilt and call it a day. […] CPPD youth: Magical evidence is not considered admissable in a court of law here in Cliffport, due to the ease with which it can be faked using illusions. In fact, a divination is considered an illegal search and seizure, and could get the whole case thrown out of court! […] Nale: What, you didn't think I chose Cliffport at random, did you? (#363) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0363.html)
Shojo faked an entire trial, despite that it was presided by a being of pure law and good. (Revealed around #289.) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0289.html)


-----

Update. How exactly can Greg hang onto the ceiling? Vampires normally can't fly in their base form, unless the base creature could fly, and Greg was created from a dwarf. Greg clearly isn't in gaseous form or transformed into a bat in this strip. Clerics can't cast the Overland Flight spell. Greg would probably need to be a very good rock climber to be up there without a ladder.

[Keltest]

Sure there is. And OotS has mentioned several times just how unrealiable those methods are.
Interesting fact: Did you know there is at least one aristocrat-friendly prestige class that grants the extraordniary ability to fool magical lie detection? (Kubota in #595) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0595.html)
Roy: Six months?? Geez, why not just cast a few divinations to determine their guilt and call it a day. […] CPPD youth: Magical evidence is not considered admissable in a court of law here in Cliffport, due to the ease with which it can be faked using illusions. In fact, a divination is considered an illegal search and seizure, and could get the whole case thrown out of court! […] Nale: What, you didn't think I chose Cliffport at random, did you? (#363) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0363.html)
Shojo faked an entire trial, despite that it was presided by a being of pure law and good. (Revealed around #289.) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0289.html)


-----

Update. How exactly can Greg hang onto the ceiling? Vampires normally can't fly in their base form, unless the base creature could fly, and Greg was created from a dwarf. Greg clearly isn't in gaseous form or transformed into a bat in this strip. Clerics can't cast the Overland Flight spell. Greg would probably need to be a very good rock climber to be up there without a ladder.

Vampires can at all times climb surfaces as if they were under the effects of a spider climb spell.

[oonker]

Update. How exactly can Greg hang onto the ceiling? Vampires normally can't fly in their base form, unless the base creature could fly, and Greg was created from a dwarf. Greg clearly isn't in gaseous form or transformed into a bat in this strip. Clerics can't cast the Overland Flight spell. Greg would probably need to be a very good rock climber to be up there without a ladder.

Vampires have spider climb: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm

Edit: Ninja'd

[Casimir-Ivanova]

Man, Word of Sun would really help these people around about now....
Oh wait, wrong game. :smallwink:

On a serious note, when's the last time everyone currently working with OOTS scryed to know what's what ahead of time? Is this the first time?

[Lord Torath]

Vampires can at all times climb surfaces as if they were under the effects of a spider climb spell.All thanks to Iggwilv's daughter Drelnza and her stupid Slippers of Spider Climb, I presume. :smallamused:

[Talion]

Man, Word of Sun would really help these people around about now....
Oh wait, wrong game. :smallwink:

On a serious note, when's the last time everyone currently working with OOTS scryed to know what's what ahead of time? Is this the first time?

Off hand, the most recent OoTS friendly scrying was done the day before the Battle of Azure City. I can't remember anything more recently than that (the bad guys seem to use it more often).

Edit: Just remembered V's months long attempts to scry or otherwise contact Haley while separated and under the effects of Cloister. Though that didn't really pan out either.

[Shining Wrath]

Meta-argument: the reason Hilgya mentions that the water is anarchic is to establish that she's not evil. She could have said "Loki's water" or even "magical water". Or not mentioned the water, or other choices.

Far from conclusive, of course, but the Giant made a choice when he wrote that dialogue, and he chose to emphasize the character's chaotic nature.

I'm glad to see I'm not the only person hoping for Bloodfeast the Extreminator to return and pose for another heavy metal album cover. Could there be anything more metal than a carnivorous dinosaur devouring vampires? :smallsmile:

[Goremplotz]

No, it shows unsurprisingly little respect. Vaarsuvius only respects Intelligence. And on the Intelligence scale, Elan ranks somewhere between Brussels sprouts and Gilligan.

V speaks of his "hard-earned friendship" with Elan which he doesn't want to carelessly discard. cf. no. 153.

[zimmerwald1915]

V speaks of his "hard-earned friendship" with Elan which he doesn't want to carelessly discard. cf. no. 153.
And then in Strip 599, she discards it quite casually indeed.

[hamishspence]

Meta-argument: the reason Hilgya mentions that the water is anarchic is to establish that she's not evil. She could have said "Loki's water" or even "magical water". Or not mentioned the water, or other choices.

Far from conclusive, of course, but the Giant made a choice when he wrote that dialogue, and he chose to emphasize the character's chaotic nature.

Loki is characterised as "God of Flames & Chaos" by her, all the way back in book 1, when she, according to Book 3 War & XPs, was evil.

Her being "Chaotic first, evil second" back then, might fit with her being Chaotic first, evil second, now as well. Loki as a "Chaos deity" would fit with his clerics getting "anarchic water" whatever their alignment.

[Fyraltari]

I'm glad to see I'm not the only person hoping for Bloodfeast the Extreminator to return and pose for another heavy metal album cover. Could there be anything more metal than a carnivorous dinosaur devouring vampires? :smallsmile:
I'm going to say "a carnivorous dinosaur devouring vampires in a place they are not too big to leave afterwards".





V speaks of his "hard-earned friendship" with Elan which he doesn't want to carelessly discard. cf. no. 153.And then in Strip 599, she discards it quite casually indeed.
V was in the process of loosing his sanity back then, I would not consider that a definite example of V's normal behaviour.

[Concept]

The comedic timing of the last panel was perfect.

[zimmerwald1915]

V was in the process of loosing his sanity back then, I would not consider that a definite example of V's normal behaviour.
According to Mr. Burlew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?318550-The-rapid-change-in-Tarquin/page3&p=16575409#post16575409), you see a character's truest behavior when you stress them to their breaking point, when "normality" and all its self-justifications fall away.

[arimareiji]

Meta-argument: the reason Hilgya mentions that the water is anarchic is to establish that she's not evil. She could have said "Loki's water" or even "magical water". Or not mentioned the water, or other choices.

Far from conclusive, of course, but the Giant made a choice when he wrote that dialogue, and he chose to emphasize the character's chaotic nature.

I'm glad to see I'm not the only person hoping for Bloodfeast the Extreminator to return and pose for another heavy metal album cover. Could there be anything more metal than a carnivorous dinosaur devouring vampires? :smallsmile:

Pretty heavy metal. My evil thought would be: Could there be any more humiliating of an own than letting your opponents partially regenerate from clumps of hair and fingernails in dinosaur poop - just in time to see the sun rise? :smallyuk:

[Fyraltari]

According to Mr. Burlew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?318550-The-rapid-change-in-Tarquin/page3&p=16575409#post16575409), you see a character's truest behavior when you stress them to their breaking point, when "normality" and all its self-justifications fall away.

Yop, "breaking point" and "casually" are very different things.

[Keltest]

According to Mr. Burlew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?318550-The-rapid-change-in-Tarquin/page3&p=16575409#post16575409), you see a character's truest behavior when you stress them to their breaking point, when "normality" and all its self-justifications fall away.

Mister Burlew is allowed to believe whatever he likes, but that doesn't stop him from being incredibly wrong in this case. The limits and restrictions that a person puts on their behavior are as much a part of that person as anything else they do. You aren't seeing their "true" self by stripping away a part of them any more than youre seeing my "true" face if you only looked at my skull.

[Silent Wrangler]

"if you're not a spellcaster"
I wonder what Durkon* ordered to vampire casters...

[factotum]

Mister Burlew is allowed to believe whatever he likes, but that doesn't stop him from being incredibly wrong in this case.

Maybe, but knowing he *does* believe that means you have to interpret the strip that is *written by him* with that knowledge. So, maybe the character we saw revealed when V was at his lowest point is actually V's true character, at least as far as our author is concerned.

[Throknor]

Crazy question time: Does the Hall only have one entrance and the chimney? Would it be possible to seal the Vampires in it somehow?

I have the feeling there is another reason Durkon led Greg to Odin's hall (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1089.html). Maybe something happens there on Odin's Holy Day. Sometimes Durkon can be surprising with his strategic ideas. I may be reading a lot into it, but there were effectively two pages spent on choosing the room rather than a simple 'look - a large room' panel.

Even crazier idea: They cast an obvious Holy Symbol Explosive Runes* on Bloodbeast's skin and send him in. One of the Vamps panics and casts Greater Dispel Magic. If I recall correctly it would target the highest level spell to dispel. Boom - instant allosaurus. If V can somehow put a triggered or delayed Fireball or Sunburst all the better.

* Coming up with this idea I assumed there was an opposite to 'Symbol of Insanity' that could be cast on objects, specifically a Holy one harmful to undead. If there is it would be perfect, but given that Durkon knows of V's E.R. spell Greg should as well and it might still work. Too bad they didn't witness Xykon's bouncing ball trick (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html), if there is such a spell.

The more I research the less possible this seems. I'm leaving it in case anyone can springboard off of it. I still like the thought of sending Bloodfeast in with a reason for one of the lesser vampires to break its enchantment before Greg can recognize it stop them. Of course Belkar might not, but them's the breaks.

[Gnoman]

Hmmm. (reads SRD spell description again). If a target makes its Fortitude save vs. the symbol of death, are those HP still deducted from the 150 total, or not? IMO one could read it either way, though as a DM I'd rule in favor of "the HP are burned regardless of the save" interpretation if forced to make a choice.

Symbol of Death does not inflict HP damage. It just adds the "you are dead" status if you fall under the HP cap and fail the save. If you pass the save, you do not get the "you are dead" status and thus are fine.

[Fyraltari]

Snip

I don't think they have any way of sealing the doors airtight. I do agree however that Durkon probably has another reason to bring Durkula there, the only thing I can think of is that maybe the local priests of Odin gather there every wednesday morning but that would be underwhelming so...

[2xMachina]

1 easy way to bypass Symbol of Death.

Get Death Ward (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/deathWard.htm) cast before.

In fact, it's a good ward to get before facing any Undead.
Prevents Energy Drain, death spells, etc.

[Kish]

Yop, "breaking point" and "casually" are very different things.
Ultimately, Vaarsuvius proved, as explicitly as could be, that they valued their pursuit of power over all else--including their marriage or their status as not-a-mass-murderer, never mind their friendship with Elan.

Whether they can come back from that, well...it's probably going to be each reader's individual judgment in the end (with, of course, a number of people rushing to absolve them of having done anything wrong before their victims hit the ground, at every stage).

[Jasdoif]

According to Mr. Burlew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?318550-The-rapid-change-in-Tarquin/page3&p=16575409#post16575409), you see a character's truest behavior when you stress them to their breaking point, when "normality" and all its self-justifications fall away.
Mister Burlew is allowed to believe whatever he likes, but that doesn't stop him from being incredibly wrong in this case. The limits and restrictions that a person puts on their behavior are as much a part of that person as anything else they do.Including the limits and restrictions on a person's other limits and restrictions. That's the point...pushing a character into a position where their various limits and various goals are in direct opposition, to show which goal(s) they prioritize over which limits(s). It's easy to stick with all of one's values when there's nothing to be gained by going against any of them; but what about when there's an incredibly desirable benefit to be had by bending on some of them...or when there's no real option that satisfies all of them?

[SlashDash]

Couldn't they just cast an illusion on the cieling to block the sight? Assuming they don't let the vamps trigger it by turning them or something?

Or... Unleash bloodfeast to block it.
Assuming they stoneskin it.


Wait... We already saw that V knows wall passage. Can they just bypass the trap entirely with it?


I think sending has set up more punch lines than any other spell in this comic, right?

I think explosive runes has the most punchlines. But I haven't counted.

[D.One]

1 easy way to bypass Symbol of Death.

Get Death Ward (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/deathWard.htm) cast before.

In fact, it's a good ward to get before facing any Undead.
Prevents Energy Drain, death spells, etc.

Hilgya could cast it, she has high enough level. The main question is if she prepared it, and how many did she prepare.

Minrah has proved herself able to cast 3rd level spells, thus, she's at least 5th level Cleric. To cast Death Ward, she should be 7th+ level Cleric, but hasn't demonstrated such level yet.

[Shining Wrath]

Any arguments about V's friendship with Elan, or any other relationship (especially that with their spouse) based upon the Soul Splice / mass murder assume that V has not changed significantly since then and learned nothing about themselves.

I think it would be tedious to enumerate the counterexamples; in brief, every time that the topic has been germane to the strip since V fled in horror at their own behavior in the pyramid, we've either seen V trying to do better, or at least, not displaying the same old behaviors of contempt, arrogance, and lust for power.

Character growth is a key theme of the strip. Saying that V has not experience growth is a rather large contradiction to the author's stated intent.

[georgie_leech]

I always thought that Mr. Burlew's point isn't that we are only who we are on our worst day, but that it is still a part of who we are. I mean, we have a villain built around Durkon's literal worst day personified, so their struggle is a direct contrast between Dukon on his worst day, and literally everything else about him as a character.

[eilandesq]

Symbol of Death does not inflict HP damage. It just adds the "you are dead" status if you fall under the HP cap and fail the save. If you pass the save, you do not get the "you are dead" status and thus are fine.

No, but the amount of targets it can ultimately affect has a hit point "budget"--and in the absence of more explicitly written language that, say, forcing a 75 hit point creature to make a Fortitude save or die doesn't count if the creature makes its save (and that theoretically the symbol could keep targeting an infinite number of such creatures during the time frame of the symbol as long as no more than one of them fails a save), I'd rule that a resisted death "zap" from the symbol drains it just like one that isn't does.

[brian 333]

No, but the amount of targets it can ultimately affect has a hit point "budget"--and in the absence of more explicitly written language that, say, forcing a 75 hit point creature to make a Fortitude save or die doesn't count if the creature makes its save (and that theoretically the symbol could keep targeting an infinite number of such creatures during the time frame of the symbol as long as no more than one of them fails a save), I'd rule that a resisted death "zap" from the symbol drains it just like one that isn't does.

As do I.

The spell clearly bypasses without reduction anyone above the HP cap, but it does not bypass those who make their save. I'd rule that amount of the spell's HP budget is used to no effect.

[KorvinStarmast]

I always thought that Mr. Burlew's point isn't that we are only who we are on our worst day, but that it is still a part of who we are. A part of who we are, and who we know we can be. Sometimes, we don't know what we are capable of, in both better and worse senses, until we are put under significant stress. (And for a RL example, the above is sort of why USMC boot camp, the Army's Ranger School, and Seal Training / BUDS are structured the way that they are).

[Kami2awa]

Wondering if Anarchic Water is produced when you melt this stuff:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amorphous_ice

[warmachine]

Wondering if Anarchic Water is produced when you melt this stuff:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amorphous_ice
Yes, because all liquid water molecules are anarchic, following Brownian motion, whether melted from amorphous or crystalline ice.

[Red XIV]

Greater Scrying is level 7 for clerics, so Hilgya is at least level 13. That would make her almost a match for Durkon, if not for Durkula. The Crystal-Haley nemesis rules are in effect; Hilgya must have kept up with Durkon prior to his vampirization even while pregnant.

Of course, she might be level 20. Unlikely that she's higher level than Durkon was, but it cannot be ruled out.

Would the nemesis rule have given her extra levels when Durkon was vampirized, so that she'd match his new effective character level? Or would that not happen because Durkula isn't the real Durkon? (And because giving her 8 extra levels would probably push her into Epic, and thus make her entirely too strong an ally to keep the fight interesting.)

[Alex Warlorn]

Does Vampire Durkon know they were spying on them? Because he has no way of knowing that or they'd do so, or that they'd spy on him in that particular time. Basically, if he backtracked their spell, it feels like less that the odds are against them and more like the narrative is outright CHEATING.

Hopefully this information on the vampire's ambush will enable the Order of the Stick to cripple Vampire Durkon's options. You think Vampire Durkon would know from his host's memories that it's smarter to just RUN AWAY from these guys are they have a habit of 90% of the time of NOT DYING. And to just set up delays so they can accomplish their mission, which are far more likely to be effective.

But seriously, to be honest honest? This comic feels like a BREATH OF FRESH AIR!!! Finally the Order of the Stick gets the drop on the enemy for once, Vampire Durkon is most likely there to bait them into the trap they're setting up, likely with some decay traps to make the heroes feel good about themselves... but he doesn't know the Order of the Stick knows ... which means I can look forward to the order of the stick kicking undead butt in the next few comics! :-)

[arimareiji]

Does Vampire Durkon know they were spying on them? Because he has no way of knowing that or they'd do so, or that they'd spy on him in that particular time. Basically, if he backtracked their spell, it feels like less that the odds are against them and more like the narrative is outright CHEATING.

Hopefully this information on the vampire's ambush will enable the Order of the Stick to cripple Vampire Durkon's options. You think Vampire Durkon would know from his host's memories that it's smarter to just RUN AWAY from these guys are they have a habit of 90% of the time of NOT DYING. And to just set up delays so they can accomplish their mission, which are far more likely to be effective.

But seriously, to be honest honest? This comic feels like a BREATH OF FRESH AIR!!! Finally the Order of the Stick gets the drop on the enemy for once [snip]
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and sometimes a lucky break is just a lucky break. It often seems everything is ordered so as to frustrate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1022.html) (panel 3) the Sticks, but it's not an immutable law of the universe.

Speaking of breaths of fresh air...

I always thought that Mr. Burlew's point isn't that we are only who we are on our worst day, but that it is still a part of who we are. I mean, we have a villain built around Durkon's literal worst day personified, so their struggle is a direct contrast between Dukon on his worst day, and literally everything else about him as a character.

A part of who we are, and who we know we can be. Sometimes, we don't know what we are capable of, in both better and worse senses, until we are put under significant stress. (And for a RL example, the above is sort of why USMC boot camp, the Army's Ranger School, and Seal Training / BUDS are structured the way that they are).
Indeed to both.

Imo, those training methods demonstrate it's completely backwards to think that we can never be better than on our worst day.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Would the nemesis rule have given her extra levels when Durkon was vampirized, so that she'd match his new effective character level? Or would that not happen because Durkula isn't the real Durkon? (And because giving her 8 extra levels would probably push her into Epic, and thus make her entirely too strong an ally to keep the fight interesting.)

Level adjustment is not extra levels. It's just a mechanic for determining how much extra XP you need to acquire to level up.

[arimareiji]

Would the nemesis rule have given her extra levels

I dunno about giving her levels as a nemesis, but if he got her pregnant he certainly gave her emesis.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/843/233/22f.gif

[Goblin_Priest]

It's a shame that Durkula just used 5000 diamond dust to ower up this symbol of death spell. Oh, well, it's not like they would need diamond to cast a ressurrection, after Durkula's body is destroyed.

I'm guessing this will be of importance.

[Goblin_Priest]

Would the nemesis rule have given her extra levels when Durkon was vampirized, so that she'd match his new effective character level? Or would that not happen because Durkula isn't the real Durkon? (And because giving her 8 extra levels would probably push her into Epic, and thus make her entirely too strong an ally to keep the fight interesting.)

She's probably Durkon's level, but that might be before the LA from the template.

[F.Harr]

Please, Roy, please, Roy, don't let him know you know about the ambush!

[b_jonas]

Vampires can at all times climb surfaces as if they were under the effects of a spider climb spell.oonker, Keltest: thank you, that explains it. I didn't know vampires could do that.

[oonker]

Couldn't they just cast an illusion on the cieling to block the sight? Assuming they don't let the vamps trigger it by turning them or something?

Or... Unleash bloodfeast to block it.
Assuming they stoneskin it.


Wait... We already saw that V knows wall passage. Can they just bypass the trap entirely with it?



I think explosive runes has the most punchlines. But I haven't counted.

That would be a nice thread to start: punchline index - who's the funniest?

...that I won't start, of course.


Also, if Bloodfeast indeed is dispelled and turned back into his tyranossaurus form, I call that the vampire he will eat is the Exarch:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1014.html

[Casimir-Ivanova]

Please, Roy, please, Roy, don't let him know you know about the ambush!

I don't think Roy's Wisdom score is THAT bad. I personally would hope Roy says something clever and creates a counter-ambush, but *shrug* we shall see.

[Shining Wrath]

Does Vampire Durkon know they were spying on them? Because he has no way of knowing that or they'd do so, or that they'd spy on him in that particular time. Basically, if he backtracked their spell, it feels like less that the odds are against them and more like the narrative is outright CHEATING.

Hopefully this information on the vampire's ambush will enable the Order of the Stick to cripple Vampire Durkon's options. You think Vampire Durkon would know from his host's memories that it's smarter to just RUN AWAY from these guys are they have a habit of 90% of the time of NOT DYING. And to just set up delays so they can accomplish their mission, which are far more likely to be effective.

But seriously, to be honest honest? This comic feels like a BREATH OF FRESH AIR!!! Finally the Order of the Stick gets the drop on the enemy for once, Vampire Durkon is most likely there to bait them into the trap they're setting up, likely with some decay traps to make the heroes feel good about themselves... but he doesn't know the Order of the Stick knows ... which means I can look forward to the order of the stick kicking undead butt in the next few comics! :-)

Durkula is the anti-Durkon. Durkon was humble and a great support caster; Durkula is arrogant and the most dangerous member of his team. Remember that one of the Giant's favorite tropes is that people are brought down by their flaws; Durkula's pride will be his undoing, and I think we're about to see an example.

[Fish]

Also, if Bloodfeast indeed is dispelled and turned back into his tyranossaurus form, I call that the vampire he will eat is the Exarch:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1014.html
That's a good call. Durkon was present when the dinosaur was transformed, so he might not have risked casting dispel magic anywhere near it, but based on that comic strip, the Exarch doesn't know who the lizard really is.

[Lord Joeltion]

Is there a reason to assume Durkula isn't scrying (one of) them back since they last saw him? If one of his clerics was scrying Haley for instance; he would have known the exact timing to fake a Death Symbol with absolute precision.

And also would possibly know what countermeasures they will be preparing for their assault.

[eilandesq]

Is there a reason to assume Durkula isn't scrying (one of) them back since they last saw him? If one of his clerics was scrying Haley for instance; he would have known the exact timing to fake a Death Symbol with absolute precision.

And also would possibly know what countermeasures they will be preparing for their assault.

Anyone within visual range of the scrying sensor can make a DC 20 intelligence check to spot it, per the 3.5 SRD. Which means that even if Durkula doesn't make his check (the Geekery thread seems to have no data on Durkon's intelligence, but the vampire template would increase whatever it was by 2, so the default assumption would be a 12 INT for Durkula and therefore needing to roll a 19 to make that check), any of the other vampires and or/vampire spawn in the room with a 10 or higher INT have a chance to make that check successfully.

[eilandesq]

I don't think Roy's Wisdom score is THAT bad. I personally would hope Roy says something clever and creates a counter-ambush, but *shrug* we shall see.

One would hope that the fact that a fair number of those vampires still have Protection from Fire on them from his last slip up would have taught him a lesson--it might even be an opportunity for him to give them bad information based on their recollection of the last time he screwed up that way.

[Spanish_Paladin]

Anyone within visual range of the scrying sensor can make a DC 20 intelligence check to spot it, per the 3.5 SRD. Which means that even if Durkula doesn't make his check (the Geekery thread seems to have no data on Durkon's intelligence, but the vampire template would increase whatever it was by 2, so the default assumption would be a 12 INT for Durkula and therefore needing to roll a 19 to make that check), any of the other vampires and or/vampire spawn in the room with a 10 or higher INT have a chance to make that check successfully.

I have read the 3.5 srd and it doesn't mention that Int check, only a Will save that determines if the spell works or not. At least in the description of scrying.

Anyway it would be nice that our heroes get the strategic upper hand for once

[Jasdoif]

I have read the 3.5 srd and it doesn't mention that Int check, only a Will save that determines if the spell works or not. At least in the description of scrying.It's a standard feature of spells of the scrying subschool.



Scrying

A scrying spell creates an invisible magical sensor that sends you information. Unless noted otherwise, the sensor has the same powers of sensory acuity that you possess. This level of acuity includes any spells or effects that target you, but not spells or effects that emanate from you. However, the sensor is treated as a separate, independent sensory organ of yours, and thus it functions normally even if you have been blinded, deafened, or otherwise suffered sensory impairment.

Any creature with an Intelligence score of 12 or higher can notice the sensor by making a DC 20 Intelligence check. The sensor can be dispelled as if it were an active spell.

Lead sheeting or magical protection blocks a scrying spell, and you sense that the spell is so blocked.

[Spanish_Paladin]

It's a standard feature of spells of the scrying subschool.




Oh, thank you!! ^_^

P. S. : I still wish that they will surprise Greg

[8BitNinja]

Yes, because all liquid water molecules are anarchic, following Brownian motion, whether melted from amorphous or crystalline ice.

Technically all molecules are anarchic, since they all contain atoms, and electrons move around mostly randomly.

[eilandesq]

It's a standard feature of spells of the scrying subschool.




Oops, I missed that "12 or higher INT" requirement when I looked at the definition. That's certainly the *average* INT for a group of dwarves turned into vampires (because of the +2 bonus), but if they were dumber than average to start out with it could eliminate some potential spotters for what is already a tough roll. This could turn out to be important.

[JoeyTheNeko]

sincerely hope durkula is able to manage better then nale in the next comic.

[brian 333]

Technically all molecules are anarchic, since they all contain atoms, and electrons move around mostly randomly.

So, would Axiomatic Water be ice? Hmm, no, ice is not crystalline. Axiomatic Water is snow.

[sillymel]

So, would Axiomatic Water be ice? Hmm, no, ice is not crystalline. Axiomatic Water is snow. Normal ice and snow are both crystalline. Source (http://www2.ess.ucla.edu/~jewitt/kb/ice.html)

[Gnoman]

No, but the amount of targets it can ultimately affect has a hit point "budget"--and in the absence of more explicitly written language that, say, forcing a 75 hit point creature to make a Fortitude save or die doesn't count if the creature makes its save (and that theoretically the symbol could keep targeting an infinite number of such creatures during the time frame of the symbol as long as no more than one of them fails a save), I'd rule that a resisted death "zap" from the symbol drains it just like one that isn't does.

To put it simply, I was on my lunch break and completely misread what was being asked. Somehow, I thought the question was "do you lose HP if the Symbol of Death doesn't kill you, the way a Disintegrate spell works."

[ref]

Two down. 23 to go.

[Yendor]

sincerely hope durkula is able to manage better then nale in the next comic.

Why? It'd be much more fun for Roy to argue with him until he runs out of sendings. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0733.html)

[Fish]

Is there any disadvantage to the vamp-dwarves in having all of their party immune to fire?

The only disadvantage I can see is the dwarves will burn up a bunch of Protection from Energy spells to make it happen.

That means ...
...the dwarves can't use the spell to cast Protection From/Resist Acid.

When would they need that?

In a dinosaur's belly.

Why would they be there?

Because clerics have no piercing or slashing weapons to cut themselves out.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dinosaur.htm

[Ruck]

I always thought that Mr. Burlew's point isn't that we are only who we are on our worst day, but that it is still a part of who we are. I mean, we have a villain built around Durkon's literal worst day personified, so their struggle is a direct contrast between Dukon on his worst day, and literally everything else about him as a character.
Yes-- but I'd also add that our most difficult decisions reveal our deepest character. Tarquin revealed that he cares more about his narrative than his own family. Vaarsuvius revealed that V cared more about power than family; V obviously has regrets about that and is trying to change in that regard, but the tragedy there is that some of the damage that has been done almost certainly can't be undone. (I don't expect Vaarsuvius and Inkyrius to reconcile, although I suppose it's possible.)

Also, let's think about where this line of conversation started. Is it more likely Vaarsuvius refers to Elan as "the Bard" because V still regards him with the same disdain of 599, or because it fits with how V usually refers to people by their last names, and Elan's hasn't been revealed yet? I think the answer is fairly clear.

[Purple Pheonix]

Yes-- but I'd also add that our most difficult decisions reveal our deepest character. Tarquin revealed that he cares more about his narrative than his own family. Vaarsuvius revealed that V cared more about power than family; V obviously has regrets about that and is trying to change in that regard, but the tragedy there is that some of the damage that has been done almost certainly can't be undone. (I don't expect Vaarsuvius and Inkyrius to reconcile, although I suppose it's possible.)

Also, let's think about where this line of conversation started. Is it more likely Vaarsuvius refers to Elan as "the Bard" because V still regards him with the same disdain of 599, or because it fits with how V usually refers to people by their last names, and Elan's hasn't been revealed yet? I think the answer is fairly clear.

I like you.

[goodpeople25]

Is there any disadvantage to the vamp-dwarves in having all of their party immune to fire?

The only disadvantage I can see is the dwarves will burn up a bunch of Protection from Energy spells to make it happen.

That means ...
...the dwarves can't use the spell to cast Protection From/Resist Acid.

When would they need that?

In a dinosaur's belly.

Why would they be there?

Because clerics have no piercing or slashing weapons to cut themselves out.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dinosaur.htm
Do you mean these specific clerics don't have those types of weapons for whatever reason (or whatever other things I might be missing) or that being clerics they don't get access to those types of weapons? Because if it is the later I think there's a mixup with a different edition.

[eilandesq]

To put it simply, I was on my lunch break and completely misread what was being asked. Somehow, I thought the question was "do you lose HP if the Symbol of Death doesn't kill you, the way a Disintegrate spell works."

No worries--that can happen to anyone.

[eilandesq]

Do you mean these specific clerics don't have those types of weapons for whatever reason (or whatever other things I might be missing) or that being clerics they don't get access to those types of weapons? Because if it is the later I think there's a mixup with a different edition.

It doesn't really matter (though they might have them if it's their deity's weapon of choice, if they have at least one fighter level, or spent a feat to learn a martial pointy weapon, or just happen to be carrying a dagger--which is a simple weapon usable by any cleric not specifically banned from doing so by their deity), because they do have slam based energy drain attacks they could use to suck said Tyrannosaur dry from the inside two levels/hit dice at a time by punching its soft innards. In a few rounds (faster if more have been swallowed without killing them outright), said tyrannosaur will be ready to begin its new life as a tyrannosaurus/wight. Congratulations! Meet the first undead biological mecha.

[Sinewmire]

It doesn't really matter (though they might have them if it's their deity's weapon of choice, if they have at least one fighter level, or spent a feat to learn a martial pointy weapon, or just happen to be carrying a dagger--which is a simple weapon any cleric not specifically banned by their deity), because they do have slam based energy drain attacks they could use to suck said Tyrannosaur dry from the inside two levels/hit dice at a time by punching its soft innards. In a few rounds (faster if more have been swallowed without killing them outright), said tyrannosaur will be ready to begin its new life as a tyrannosaurus/wight. Congratulations! Meet the first undead biological mecha.

Vampiresaurus Rex :smalleek:. Now that's a horrifying notion. He'd outrank Count Durkula!

Is using a slam attack or grapple one of the options available to someone swallowed whole?

[eilandesq]

Vampiresaurus Rex :smalleek:. Now that's a horrifying notion. He'd outrank Count Durkula!

Is using a slam attack or grapple one of the options available to someone swallowed whole?

Don't see why not--slapping or punching at its innards a few feet away is a less difficult task than extracting a dagger and slashing away, and such an attack would be well within the definition of a slap/slam:

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Natural_Weapons


Slap or Slam
The creature batters opponents with an appendage, dealing bludgeoning damage.

[SlashDash]

Is there any disadvantage to the vamp-dwarves in having all of their party immune to fire?

We know that V hasn't learned any Electricity \ Frost spells for today, so might as well have memorized acid stuff.

Or... Maybe V learned something from the previous failures* and finally memorized something with Sonic.

It could be funny if V taught Elan how to use Illusions and he'll teach V about ventriloquism or something.

* I'm referring not just to the battle with the Druid, but also the inability to warn Roy and the others about the gate. If she had Shout or some other vocal power things might have ended differently.

[oonker]

We know that V hasn't learned any Electricity \ Frost spells for today, so might as well have memorized acid stuff.

Or... Maybe V learned something from the previous failures* and finally memorized something with Sonic.

It could be funny if V taught Elan how to use Illusions and he'll teach V about ventriloquism or something.

* I'm referring not just to the battle with the Druid, but also the inability to warn Roy and the others about the gate. If she had Shout or some other vocal power things might have ended differently.

I'm still willing to bet that when V said "I've got a quickened fireball ready to roll" when they were all inside the forcecage, he lied and he really had a sonic spell to go. He still hasn't filled Roy and the party in on the details because V tends to be overly verbose in his explanations, and with the appearance of Hilgya, the plan changed significantly.

[brian 333]

You can only use slashing or very short piercing weapons which are at hand, (no, not even in a handy haversack,) because you are being constricted while being swallowed, and you can't move. If you've never seen it, watch a large snake eat a mouse.

Short slashing weapons which are easy to draw can slice, but to slam you'd need to draw back and take a swing.

But, an engulfed vampire need only mist then squeese out of the nostrils.

[hamishspence]

You can only use slashing or very short piercing weapons which are at hand, (no, not even in a handy haversack,) because you are being constricted while being swallowed, and you can't move. If you've never seen it, watch a large snake eat a mouse.

After you've been swallowed, is what's being referred to:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#swallowWhole

It says that the only way to cut yourself free is via slash or pierce - to damage the stomach wall.

But if you can do damage while being grappled, at all, you can do damage to the creature - it just won't cut through the stomach's muscles that are holding you.

[brian 333]

You can only use slashing weapons which are at hand, (no, not even in a handy haversack,) because you are being constricted while being swallowed, and you can't move. If you've never seen it, watch a large snake eat a mouse.

A dino is not a lizard of any sort. Like a bird, they have a crop in which food and gastroliths are ground together in the dinosaur version of chewing.

Short slashing weapons which are easy to draw can slice, but to slam you'd need to draw back and take a swing.

But, an engulfed vampire need only mist then squeese out of the nostrils.

[hamishspence]

You can only use slashing weapons which are at hand, (no, not even in a handy haversack,) because you are being constricted while being swallowed, and you can't move. If you've never seen it, watch a large snake eat a mouse.


The point I'm trying to make is to figure out "what can a creature do, when it's been swallowed completely, and is still alive/undead and functional".

Natural attacks can be used in regular grapples, therefore, natural attacks can be used when you are inside a creature's stomach. They just won't get you out of that stomach.

Spells with no somatic components (and by extrapolation, spell-like abilities and supernatural abilities) can be used as well.

(V presumably cast a Stilled Shapechange - with V's Headband of Intellect having been made of jade and therefore being usable as a focus in addition to its regular usage.):

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0638.html

Or you can use a grapple check, to end the grappling power of the stomach - getting you back into the creature's mouth.



But, an engulfed vampire need only mist then squeese out of the nostrils.

While in the stomach, you are behind the "stomach sphincter" - a ring of muscle. Assuming it's tightly closed, a mist vamp would have trouble getting through it - it might not qualify as a "chink that can be gotten through."



Is using a slam attack or grapple one of the options available to someone swallowed whole?

Just making a "grapple check to escape being grappled" is certainly an option:


A swallowed creature can try to cut its way free with any light slashing or piercing weapon (the amount of cutting damage required to get free is noted in the creature description), or it can just try to escape the grapple. The Armor Class of the interior of a creature that swallows whole is normally 10 + ½ its natural armor bonus, with no modifiers for size or Dexterity. If the swallowed creature escapes the grapple, success puts it back in the attacker’s mouth, where it may be bitten or swallowed again.

Arguably, anything that can be done in a regular grapple, can be done in a "swallowed whole grapple" - it just won't end the status of "grappling".

After all, it says "You are grappled" not "you are pinned".

[Lord Torath]

It doesn't really matter (though they might have them if it's their deity's weapon of choice, if they have at least one fighter level, or spent a feat to learn a martial pointy weapon, or just happen to be carrying a dagger--which is a simple weapon usable by any cleric not specifically banned from doing so by their deity), because they do have slam based energy drain attacks they could use to suck said Tyrannosaur dry from the inside two levels/hit dice at a time by punching its soft innards. In a few rounds (faster if more have been swallowed without killing them outright), said tyrannosaur will be ready to begin its new life as a tyrannosaurus/wight. Congratulations! Meet the first undead biological mecha.After reading this discussion, I'm forced to again agree with Roy (from one of the calendars): Chews Food Thoroughly Before Swallowing is a far more powerful ability than Swallows Whole. :smallbiggrin:

[georgie_leech]

Yes-- but I'd also add that our most difficult decisions reveal our deepest character. Tarquin revealed that he cares more about his narrative than his own family. Vaarsuvius revealed that V cared more about power than family; V obviously has regrets about that and is trying to change in that regard, but the tragedy there is that some of the damage that has been done almost certainly can't be undone. (I don't expect Vaarsuvius and Inkyrius to reconcile, although I suppose it's possible.)

Also, let's think about where this line of conversation started. Is it more likely Vaarsuvius refers to Elan as "the Bard" because V still regards him with the same disdain of 599, or because it fits with how V usually refers to people by their last names, and Elan's hasn't been revealed yet? I think the answer is fairly clear.

Agreed on all counts, really. I just meant to add a bit of context; I've seen some readers take that quote to mean The Giant thinks that who you are on your worst day is more real than the rest of you, which isn't really supported by the rest of his writings. Like when Roy starts kicking butt with a super power up while screaming about how the Vampire isn't Durkon :smallwink:

[brian 333]

Normal ice and snow are both crystalline. Source (http://www2.ess.ucla.edu/~jewitt/kb/ice.html)

My mistake. I meant to say a chunk of ice doesn't look crystalline, but snowflakes, which are just ice, do. A hammer doesn't look crystalline either. But my statement was factually incorrect.

Question: how many stakes did Belkar prepare? And what's Haley's to hit versus unarmored vampires? Dual wielding stakes and manyshot stakes with fletching might thin the herd a bit if they intend to rush into the trap.

I don't sound a bit like Admiral Ackbar.

Also: in early incarnations of D&D removing the stake allows the vampire to regenerate. How does this affect the vampires who have no coffin? I have no rules for this.

[Lord Joeltion]

Anyone within visual range of the scrying sensor can make a DC 20 intelligence check to spot it, per the 3.5 SRD. Which means that even if Durkula doesn't make his check (the Geekery thread seems to have no data on Durkon's intelligence, but the vampire template would increase whatever it was by 2, so the default assumption would be a 12 INT for Durkula and therefore needing to roll a 19 to make that check), any of the other vampires and or/vampire spawn in the room with a 10 or higher INT have a chance to make that check successfully.

Ok, nice to know I guess. But that still doesn't answer my question:

What if Durkula was/is scrying them since before Hilgya appeared, in order to set a fake-stage trap room that won't actually be in the real battlefield? It would be very easy (I think) for Durkon to be waiting to be scryed so he can show them a false trap and make the Order waste time and resources for nothing. At least, that is what smarts villains do, and Durkula looks a lot smarter than Durkon.

tl;dr: do we readers have a real basis to discard such hypothetical scenario? (All I'm sure is the Order has no reason to suspect. Except for Haley, maybe).

[Fish]

Do you mean these specific clerics don't have those types of weapons for whatever reason (or whatever other things I might be missing) or that being clerics they don't get access to those types of weapons? Because if it is the later I think there's a mixup with a different edition.
Neither. I’m asking, “What would be funny?”

Clerics in a tyrannosaur’s belly: “Do you mean to say NOBODY has any edged weapons?”

[Keltest]

Ok, nice to know I guess. But that still doesn't answer my question:

What if Durkula was/is scrying them since before Hilgya appeared, in order to set a fake-stage trap room that won't actually be in the real battlefield? It would be very easy (I think) for Durkon to be waiting to be scryed so he can show them a false trap and make the Order waste time and resources for nothing. At least, that is what smarts villains do, and Durkula looks a lot smarter than Durkon.

tl;dr: do we readers have a real basis to discard such hypothetical scenario? (All I'm sure is the Order has no reason to suspect. Except for Haley, maybe).

That would be a lot of resources to waste on a fake ambush, especially given the Order's tendency to blunder ahead without a plan.

[Jasdoif]

That would be a lot of resources to waste on a fake ambush, especially given the Order's tendency to blunder ahead without a plan.Yeah. Not that there isn't room for a fakeout (I'm kind of expecting the inexplicably-less-than-ten-minutes-to-cast sending to be incongruous with what they just saw); but expecting the Order to scry HPoH means expecting the Order can scry HPoH, and the whole ambush is liable to fall apart if HPoH isn't there with the decoy...as opposed to actually working on getting the world ended.

[Fish]

What if Durkula was/is scrying them since before Hilgya appeared...
Unlikely. If so, then Durkon has already seen Hilgya, but we haven't seen his reaction to seeing Hilgya. It doesn't seem like the way Rich would reveal that plot point to the reader.


Durkon [showing] them a false trap and make the Order waste time and resources for nothing
Unlikely. Durkon has it on good authority that the Order a) hardly ever uses scrying and b) falls (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0341.html) into (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0098.html) real (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0175.html) traps (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0181.html) all (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0840.html) the (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0036.html) time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0798.html) everywhere (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html) they (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0847.html) go (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0911.html). If Durkula actually ancitipated that the Order has subverted expectation a) by finding a powerful cleric ally and subverted expectation b) by actually planning ahead and scouting for danger, that would be counter to the evidence. I'd even venture to say Durkula would be wasting his time, anticipating a level of foresight that is unlikely to happen. Even this amount of foresight wasn't the Order's idea; it was Hilgya's (and Loki's too in directing her there).


At least, that is what smarts villains do, and Durkula looks a lot smarter than Durkon.
Durkula is pretty smart: he's using what he knows about the Order against them. They tend to blunder along and run into traps, so he's setting one.

The question I would ask is, "If this is a fake ambush, what does Durkula do if the Order hadn't been scrying on him?" The Order walks into a room and ... nothing happens? That doesn't sound like Durkula should be spending all that effort and all those spells on.

[factotum]

The question I would ask is, "If this is a fake ambush, what does Durkula do if the Order hadn't been scrying on him?" The Order walks into a room and ... nothing happens? That doesn't sound like Durkula should be spending all that effort and all those spells on.

I agree. Durkula has just spent 10,000gp worth of diamonds and opals and 10 minutes to set up that Symbol of Death--doesn't seem he'd waste that much time and money on something that wasn't ultimately supposed to do anything. Also, he'd have to know exactly when the Order were planning to scry on him in order to do it.

However, I will point out that Durkula probably knows about Hilgya, because he has some survivors from the trap in the corridor with him and will no doubt have asked them how they failed to defeat the Order. So, he knows they have a reasonably high-level cleric with them, although he probably doesn't know who it is as yet.

[brian 333]

I'm of two opinions at this point:

1) Hilgya's early attempts to scry Durkon automatically failed because Durkon was dead. HPoH never had to save, knows nothing about Hilgya, and any reports from minions speak of a cleric of Loki, who could be anyone. In this case the last try at scrying succeeded because she was looking for a vampire.

2) Hilgya's attempts have alerted Durkula who has been monitoring her since, in which case he knows exactly who the cleric was, knew she'd be getting the info to lock in on him, and knew she'd instantly use it. In this case, he has every opportunity to set up a distraction while he goes on with his mission.

These are contradictory, of course, and at least one of them is wrong.

Has Roy learned from Tarquin's example yet? It's not about him. As long as Durkula can keep Roy thinking about personal issues, he can control Roy.

Maybe Elan will be there when Roy really needs wise counsel.

[SilverCacaobean]

Maybe Elan will be there when Roy really needs wise counsel.

I admit, this is one of the sentences I never expected to see. :smalltongue:

[LuminousWarrior]

I agree. Durkula has just spent 10,000gp worth of diamonds and opals and 10 minutes to set up that Symbol of Death--doesn't seem he'd waste that much time and money on something that wasn't ultimately supposed to do anything.

One thing to note is that Durkula is planning doomsday. Money means nothing when the world ends. Of course, I'm not disagreeing with you either. It's just that the money is a non-issue.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

One thing to note is that Durkula is planning doomsday. Money means nothing when the world ends. Of course, I'm not disagreeing with you either. It's just that the money is a non-issue.

Errr... he is planning to avoid said doomsday by going off-plane, so in this case, he really can take it with him.

GW

[factotum]

One thing to note is that Durkula is planning doomsday. Money means nothing when the world ends.

Maybe, but to get to the point the world ends he needs to spend his resources wisely, and using them to put up a Symbol of Death that he never expects to actually *use* is suboptimal at best. Also, we're not talking about money per se, we're talking about rare and expensive material components for magical spells, which will totally still be useful when world #3 comes around.

[Kish]

I'm of two opinions at this point:

1) Hilgya's early attempts to scry Durkon automatically failed because Durkon was dead.
Both your opinions seem to hinge on the unstated assumption that Hilgya didn't start trying to scry for Durkon until after his death a few days ago. That seems a thoroughly odd assumption to make.

[eilandesq]

One thing to note is that Durkula is planning doomsday. Money means nothing when the world ends. Of course, I'm not disagreeing with you either. It's just that the money is a non-issue.

Also, the main use for diamond dust is raise dead/resurrection spells. Durkula isn't going to need to cast either of those barring some rather unlikely developments, and it even has a bonus of screwing over the OotS from beyond the ungrave if they dust Durkula and they want to Resurrect Durkon--they had to burn through their fund to buy diamond dust back in #1029 to keep their ride with the Mechane and its crew going.

[brian 333]

Both your opinions seem to hinge on the unstated assumption that Hilgya didn't start trying to scry for Durkon until after his death a few days ago. That seems a thoroughly odd assumption to make.

How long has Durkula been dead? But you are correct, I did make that assumption because otherwise there would be no reason for her scrying attempts to have failed. Here's why:

Durkon had no reason to not 'accept the call' if he knew she was scrying. They could have scryed one another, talked it out, and gone on to live a life of child support payments, holiday arguments over visitation privileges, and parental guilt.
That would have been a hilarious scene if Sending was used.

Durkon had every reason to inform Roy that scrying attempts were being made if he did not know it was Hilgya making them. Being aware of a scrying attempt and not informing Roy would have been out of character for Mr. Lawful Good. This could have happened, but it has not been seen in comic so far.

Finally, Durkon has never displayed any awareness of scrying whether on TeeVo or through floating green eyeballs. According to what we have seen of his behavior, he would have been oblivious, which indicates that he never succeed at a Will check vs. scrying. Meaning the scrying attempts should have worked. Hilgya says they did not.

[Keltest]

How long has Durkula been dead? But you are correct, I did make that assumption because otherwise there would be no reason for her scrying attempts to have failed. Here's why:

Durkon had no reason to not 'accept the call' if he knew she was scrying. They could have scryed one another, talked it out, and gone on to live a life of child support payments, holiday arguments over visitation privileges, and parental guilt.
That would have been a hilarious scene if Sending was used.

Durkon had every reason to inform Roy that scrying attempts were being made if he did not know it was Hilgya making them. Being aware of a scrying attempt and not informing Roy would have been out of character for Mr. Lawful Good. This could have happened, but it has not been seen in comic so far.

Finally, Durkon has never displayed any awareness of scrying whether on TeeVo or through floating green eyeballs. According to what we have seen of his behavior, he would have been oblivious, which indicates that he never succeed at a Will check vs. scrying. Meaning the scrying attempts should have worked. Hilgya says they did not.

Succeeding at your will save is different from the check to notice a scrying sensor.

[Fyraltari]

snip
You can't talk to someone by scryin on them.
She did say he subsconciously stopped her from scrying : he did not notice the attempt at all.

[Doug Lampert]

Succeeding at your will save is different from the check to notice a scrying sensor.

Yes, in fact if you succeed on your will save then there is no scrying sensor to notice so it becomes impossible to notice the sensor.

But you do get a spellcraft roll to know what spell you just saved against: 25 + spell level: After rolling a saving throw against a spell targeted on you, determine what that spell was. No action required. No retry.

But in no case do you know who's trying to scry on you without some method beyond just making a save and a check. Spotting the sensor doesn't tell you anything beyond that there's a sensor, making the spellcraft check doesn't tell you anything but what the spell was.

Assuming that Durkon would have known who or what was forcing him to make will saves every now and then and would then have announced his intent to voluntarily FAIL any future will saves just in case it was someone wanting to talk to him is not a justified assumption (gosh, I sure hope no one throws a hostile will save spell at me while I'm voluntarily failing all will saves).

Note that there's NO WAY TO KNOW what the spell is in advance in the case of scrying, the check to spot the sensor or identify the spell is explicitly after the save.

And note also that SENDING is a lower level spell than SCRY for clerics and is actually USEFUL for talking to someone and does not allow a save in the first place. So the existence of a save makes the spell almost by definition hostile rather than a communications attempt. In fact, spells that allow a save but are usually harmless have the save specifically marked as "harmless" and the saving throw is rolled only if the target desires to do so (as opposed to the usual idea that the save is the default). Since Scry is not marked harmless you don't get any indication that you don't need to save prior to rolling the save.