What You Would Change: Barbarian [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Specter

2018-01-09, 04:24 PM

Garfunion

2018-01-09, 04:34 PM

Off the top my head.

BERSERKER
Frenzy: Remove exhaustion. Add: you regain the use of this ability after completing a short or long rest.

Easy_Lee

2018-01-09, 04:42 PM

Specter

2018-01-09, 07:10 PM

Off the top my head.

BERSERKER
Frenzy: Remove exhaustion. Add: you regain the use of this ability after completing a short or long rest.

That would work too.

Fix their MADness and open up new build possibilities.

Reckless Attack and Rage: remove requirement that attacks must use strength.

Unarmored Defense: 10 + Con + Str OR Dex.

Rage and Fast Movement: remove heavy armor limitation.

How are Barbarians MAD?

Gardakan

2018-01-09, 07:13 PM

Fix their MADness and open up new build possibilities.

Reckless Attack and Rage: remove requirement that attacks must use strength.

Unarmored Defense: 10 + Con + Str OR Dex.

Rage and Fast Movement: remove heavy armor limitation.

What ?!?!

They scale super good with Constitution and Strenght, which are the two basic things he's proficient in. You can even build him with some Dexterity and then you choose the mental attributes you want.

Barbarian being MAD... lol

Easy_Lee

2018-01-09, 07:31 PM

How are Barbarians MAD?

It was in my post. Their Unarmored Defense is based on dexterity and constitution, but their other features are based on strength. This is why many have identified Unarmored Defense as a trap feature for Barbarians. Most correctly wear medium armor and ignore the feature.

None of it needs to be based on any particular attribute since they're already a martial class that needs decent AC and to be able to hit things.

Gardakan

2018-01-09, 07:33 PM

It was in my post. Their Unarmored Defense is based on dexterity and constitution, but their other features are based on strength. This is why many have identified Unarmored Defense as a trap feature for Barbarians. Most correctly wear medium armor and ignore the feature.

None of it needs to be based on any particular attribute since they're already a martial class that needs decent AC and to be able to hit things.

How it is a trap option ? Having a good Constitution on barbarian is always useful. It scales naturally... and you want wear a shield for a minimal amount of defense without hurting yourself too much.

16 Constitution + 12 Dexterity + a shield is 16 AC at level 1 ... without hurting much the Strenght of the Barbarian.

The barbarian isn't MAD. Stop this foolish belief.

Easy_Lee

2018-01-09, 07:38 PM

How it is a trap option ? Having a good Constitution on barbarian is always useful. It scales naturally... and you want wear a shield for a minimal amount of defense without hurting yourself too much.

16 Constitution + 12 Dexterity + a shield is 16 AC at level 1 ... without hurting much the Strenght of the Barbarian.

The barbarian isn't MAD. Stop this foolish belief.

The Barbarian has features that depend upon three different attributes. It's technically MAD, even if people don't see it that way or don't bother trying to max out all three attributes. I don't know how else to put it to you, but I'm not stating an opinion here.

smcmike

2018-01-09, 07:59 PM

thoroughlyS

2018-01-09, 09:04 PM

The Barbarian has features that depend upon three different attributes. It's technically MAD, even if people don't see it that way or don't bother trying to max out all three attributes. I don't know how else to put it to you, but I'm not stating an opinion here.
The barbarian class mentions Dexterity exactly twice, in the features Unarmored Defense and Danger Sense. Unarmored Defense is a modification of the way a Barbarian can calculate AC, which uses Dexterity by default. Even using medium armor as you suggest relies as much on Dexterity as Unarmored Defense does. Danger Sense does not depend on Dexterity in any way, and in fact reduces the relative value of Dexterity when compared to another character.

The Barbarian is still technically MAD in that it depends on two ability scores (Strength and Constitution), but the majority of characters rely on two ability scores.

On topic, I would add a flavorful feature at 4th level which also patches Frenzy quite nicely.

Bountiful Vigor
At 4th level, you recover stamina at an exhilarating rate, shrugging off fatigue that would floor anyone else. When you finish a short rest, you can regain one level of exhaustion. You must eat at least half a pound of food and drink at least 1 quart of water during this short rest. You can't use this feature again until you finish a long rest.

Vaz

2018-01-09, 09:07 PM

Armoured defense does nothing, like 50 gold or whatever it costs for Breastplate eradicates the need for it. If you're starved of loot, it's a nice thing to have, but building towarss it is a trap. 20 Con and 14 Dex gives you an AC of 17. One higher than wearing Breastplate. Investing nto unarmoured AC is a trap for the cost at which you get bonuses. Check out Orc, Goliath, or mountain dwarf, the archetypal.

You have, at point buy, 17 Str, and at least 16 Con. Either stereptypically tank your other stats to get a 14 Dex for a total of AC15. As a Barbarian, you are going to have an AC of 15 utilizing unarmoured defense until 8, when you invest +1 Dex at best and have 20/16/16/8/8/8, equalling Breastplate. It isn't until 12th you can exceed it, and even then, something like a suit of +1 Breastplate, or a Ring of Protection are going to easily keep things level.

Assuming you are going to want Sentinel or Great Weapon Master, you don't exceed the AC provided by Breastplate and 14 Dex until 16th level.

I'd personally have no problem adding your Rage modifier to your AC.

Talamare

2018-01-09, 09:20 PM

Bear - Gain Resistance to the Elements - Fire, Cold, and Lightning

Berserker - Frenzy enter a Frenzy Rage that grants no Resistance but allows you to make an additional attack as a bonus action

Zealot - This needs a remake

Specter

2018-01-09, 09:49 PM

It was in my post. Their Unarmored Defense is based on dexterity and constitution, but their other features are based on strength. This is why many have identified Unarmored Defense as a trap feature for Barbarians. Most correctly wear medium armor and ignore the feature.

None of it needs to be based on any particular attribute since they're already a martial class that needs decent AC and to be able to hit things.

If you start as a V. Human with 16 14 16 10 10 8, you can still max STR and CON and have room for two feats. If not human, you'll have 18 CON which is plenty. I don't see how that's MAD.

And if anything, they are probably the class that needs the least AC, since they can already cut attack damage in half.

thoroughlyS

2018-01-09, 09:56 PM

Armoured defense does nothing, like 50 gold or whatever it costs for Breastplate eradicates the need for it. If you're starved of loot, it's a nice thing to have,
The barbarian starting equipment doesn't give armor, so starting off with Unarmored Defense is a likely option. Breastplate costs 400 gp, scale mail costs 50 gp but at that point you have disadvantage on stealth checks, so there is at least some trade off.

building towars it is a trap. 20 Con and 14 Dex gives you an AC of 17. One higher than wearing Breastplate. Investing into unarmoured AC is a trap for the cost at which you get bonuses.

...

You have, at point buy, 17 Str, and at least 16 Con. Either stereptypically tank your other stats to get a 14 Dex for a total of AC15. As a Barbarian, you are going to have an AC of 15 utilizing unarmoured defense until 8, when you invest +1 Dex at best and have 20/16/16/8/8/8, equalling Breastplate. It isn't until 12th you can exceed it, and even then, something like a suit of +1 Breastplate, or a Ring of Protection are going to easily keep things level.

Assuming you are going to want Sentinel or Great Weapon Master, you don't exceed the AC provided by Breastplate and 14 Dex until 16th level.
If we focus on the "+ Con mod" part of the equation, the two options become a lot closer as comparison points. In order for Unarmored Defense to provide the same AC as breastplate, a barbarian's Con mod needs to be +4. Using your numbers above, you could reach this benchmark as early as 4th level, by boosting your starting 16 Con to 18. According to this thread (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?402507-Deconstructing-5e-Typical-Wealth-by-Level), the earliest a typical player could afford breastplate is also at 4th level. To be fair, this has now become a comparison of class features to character wealth, and the obvious answer is always to spend money.

Furthermore, +1 Breastplate and Ring of Protection are not knocks against Unarmored Defense at all. Getting +1 breastplate is just as much of a step forward to a breastplate wearing barbarian as it is to one who uses Unarmored Defense. And nothing is stopping a naked barbarian from benefiting just as much from a ring of protection.

There is one minor factor that bears considering: building a high AC barbarian. A character starting with 14 Dex and 16 Con starts outclassing breastplate at 8th level. If they wanted to, they could get 20 Dex and 24 Con for AC 22 naked, which outclasses +3 breastplate (AC 19). I do recognize that this is certainly a corner case character.

smcmike

2018-01-09, 10:12 PM

Unarmored Defense, and the presence of MAD options in general, add to the game. Roll stats and get something awesome? It’s Naked Barbarian Time!

brainface

2018-01-09, 10:33 PM

I'd let totem warrior cast beast sense and speak with animals at will, and not as rituals.

Because the logistics of getting an animal to sit still for 10 minutes while you light incense and go talk and negotiate with it for 1 minute, when speak with animal's duration runs out, then sit still for another 10 minutes while you light incense and prepare to use their senses for an hour. Like--if someone was a stickler DM that was pessimistic about squirrel attention spans, there's just no way at all for the barbarian to use the beast sense ritual, outside domesticated or trapped animals--and then why can you talk to them?

Pex

2018-01-09, 10:49 PM

If a barbarian does not want to go the stereotypical two-handed weapon/Great Weapon Master route, a variant human with Point Buy could have 16 ST 16 DX 16 CO 8 IN 8 WI 8 CH with Resilient Dex and be proficient in all the physical saves. Lump it on mental stats and be the stereotypical dumb jock or something. Use a shield and have 18 AC at 1st level. At 4th level increase ST to 18. At 8th level your choice of either 18 CO or Shield Master feat. If you're a bear totem barbarian you may not need Shield Master as much, so with the CO for the hit points and AC 19. For 12th and 16th level your choice to make ST 20 first or CO 20 first. I'd pick ST first for accuracy and damage. It's only +1, but it adds up, and I have the hit points and bear totem. It could depend on magic items I have. If I have a magic weapon that adds extra damage then CO first is likely. If I have an AC boosting item like bracers and/or magic shield +#, ST is likely. If both, ST as default. Level 19 is a choice. DX 18 is good for the AC. Toughness feat is tempting. It's way too late for Shield Master at this point.

For your mental save deficiency hopefully the cleric will Bless you, and hug the paladin if you can.

If you want the stereotypical two-handed weapon/Great Weapon Master route, that's where MAD kicks in. Damage resistance is great, but your AC suffers if you want ST or your accuracy/damage suffers if you want AC. Despite Reckless Attack, Great Weapon Master gives the damage but having one less to hit than otherwise is still a factor.

I like the idea of Unarmored Defense be 10 + Con + (Str or Dex)

Malifice

2018-01-10, 12:25 AM

Reduce the number of rages per long rest per day by 1.

Add a Fighting style at 2nd level to compensate (from GWM, 2WF, Dueling, Protection) in line with other martials.

Gardakan

2018-01-10, 12:30 AM

When they define the six attributes in the beginning of the PHB... Constitution is referred as everyone's.

Constitution isn't an attribute that count towards the MAD dependency (see Monk for Wisdom and Dexterity).

Constitution is a default stat that any ''lasting'' adventurer wants at some point.

You can easily have two stats defining any character.

Even the standard array has two + 2 bonus.

Arkhios

2018-01-10, 12:33 AM

Reduce the number of rages per long rest per day by 1.

Add a Fighting style at 2nd level to compensate (from GWM, 2WF, Dueling, Protection) in line with other martials.

But is Barbarian really martial? (jk)

Seriously though, I disagree with removing radiant and necrotic resistances from Bear totem; Totem Warrior is more like a spiritual warrior to me, and Bear Totem's spirit enhancing your spirit a.k.a. soul seems reasonable enough to give them resistance to all damage.

...I'd add fighting style as well, and reducing the raging times would be reasonable, although I would make the duration longer.

Gardakan

2018-01-10, 12:39 AM

But is Barbarian really martial? (jk)

Seriously though, I disagree with removing radiant and necrotic resistances from Bear totem; Totem Warrior is more like a spiritual warrior to me, and Bear Totem's spirit enhancing your spirit a.k.a. soul seems reasonable enough to give them resistance to all damage.

...I'd add fighting style as well, and reducing the raging times would be reasonable, although I would make the duration longer.

To be honest, the fighting style is already in the rage.

It's not about redefining something that you enhance it normally. Barbarian are viable, doing enough damage at two of my different tables so they matters and they're still hella fun to play.

Armok

2018-01-10, 03:05 AM

The only change I'd make is to the Bear totem, because in my opinion it's a bit too good at level 3. I'd change it to granting Temp HP at an amount that scales with your barbarian level.

pdegan2814

2018-01-10, 03:40 AM

If you could change anything about the Barbarian and its subclasses, what would it be?

Here's what I would do:

BASE
Brutal Critical: There are too many levels where all the Barbarian gets is this. At first, it's a welcome addition, but later the situational damage increase is not impressive, and it just becomes more of the same. At subsequent levels, maybe a movement upgrade could work.

BERSERKER
Frenzy: Add "You recover all exhaustion levels gained from this feature after a long rest." That way you can frenzy at least twice all week without being dead on the 6th day.

Intimidating Presence: If you're going to give a Barbarian something to do while he can't hit foes, why not give it a decent range instead of 30 feet?

Brutal Critical - simply adding additional damage rolls does get a bit uninteresting after a while, especially for a feature that's not going to trigger very often. I'd say at 9th level they get "Brutal Critical", with an extra damage roll. At 13th level they get "Debilitating Critical", the target attacks at disadvantage and cannot take reactions until the start of your next turn. At 17th level, "Stunning Critical", the target is stunned until the start of your next turn. Another idea would be a "Bleeding Critical" where at the start of each of their subsequent turns they take damage equal to your Rage bonus(regardless of whether the crit came while you were raging), unless they take some step to end the effect, similar to a Sword Of Wounding.

Frenzy - I do think thematically it makes sense for them to suffer a lasting effect for using this ability, but if it's going to be exhaustion then I do think there should be a way for them to burn off those exhaustion levels faster. Maybe involving a hit to their max HP, or burning Hit Dice. It should still cost them something, but they're Mighty Barbarians, they should be able to recover their stamina faster than the average hero. Maybe a buff to exhaustion recovery should be a standard Barbarian feature.

Intimidating Presence - 30 feet is not a bad range for something like this, I think the only problem is the DC is based on what is very possibly a dump stat for the Barbarian. Maybe scale it based on their Rage damage bonus somehow?

Asmotherion

2018-01-10, 04:32 AM

On the New Subclasses:

Ancestral Guardian: I'd make it's core mechanic include himself in the creatures it can guard from the first level he gains the ability, and as the ability processes, become a pseudo-Spiritual Guardians AoE to enemy targets. It has a lot of RP/Visual potential but the actual mechanics to support it come up too late in game.

Storm Herald: Other than the passive Aura, I'd add a d4 (appropriate element) damage to the weapon attacks of the Barbarian during rage, with a cantrip progression. (1d4 at level 5, 2d4 at level 11, 3d4 at level 17). Since they can't cast spells during rage, it can be a good and flavorfull replacement for Booming/Greenflame Blade on a Barbarian whose whole theme is dealing elemental damage/using elemental forces. Since they have extra attack, I believe d4 balances out the d8 of BB/GFB. Finally, I'd also give them a thematic 30 feet ranged spell attack of their element, even when out of rage, just for flavor reasons.

Lonely Tylenol

2018-01-10, 05:26 AM

Adjust the rage damage so that it scales with proficiency. (If you want to avoid Barbarians being a dip class, keep it contingent with Barbarian levels as it is, then ramp up the scaling.)

Replace Brutal Critical with features that are less situational and boring. Possibly things that improve on base features, one offense, one defense and one non-combat, such as:

Brutal Strikes (at 9): When you hit with an attack made with advantage, you can roll the weapon’s damage die twice and take either result. (Functionally: “advantage” for damage, but only for base weapon damage, not rider dice.) If that proves to be too strong, give it a 1/turn limitation. (Note: critical hit dice are modified by this, too.)

Improved Danger Sense (at 13): You have advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks to detect traps or environmental hazards. Attack rolls made by traps against you have disadvantage.

Last Stand (at 17): While raging and at 1 hit point, you have advantage on attack rolls and saving throws. During this time, you may use your reaction to turn a failed saving throw into a success, or a hit against you into a miss. If you do, at the end of your next turn, you drop to 0 hit points. (Note: you can still roll Relentless Rage.) Once you use this feature, you cannot do so again until you finish a short or long rest.

Probably every last one of these needs heavy tuning, but at least they’re abilities that you can feel working, and actually do something with. Not three levels of, “5% of the time, or ~9% of the time with advantage, I roll another dice.” I mean, even Champion’s threat range modifier is more interactive, because changing the odds modifies the risk/reward investment of stacking damage riders on your attacks: you can build around it. Brutal Critical doesn’t even modify the odds, so you don’t really feel anything different at all.

GlenSmash!

2018-01-10, 01:22 PM

What ?!?!

They scale super good with Constitution and Strenght, which are the two basic things he's proficient in. You can even build him with some Dexterity and then you choose the mental attributes you want.

Barbarian being MAD... lol

I'f I'm making a Barb I wouldn't think of making one that dumps Dex as far as a Fighter or Paladin can. I also think they majorly benefit form a decent Wisdom score.

However, I like it.

I'll start a Vhuman Barb with with standard array at 16, 14, 14, 10, 14, 8 with Resilient Wisdom any day.

Unarmored Defense, and the presence of MAD options in general, add to the game. Roll stats and get something awesome? It’s Naked Barbarian Time!

Yup, Unarmored Defense is an option, a strongly thematic one even, but I would never assume it's the intended default for all Barbarians.

I can leave Con at 14 on Barb, grab Medium armor (hopefully of sweet magical variety) and spend those ASIs on Feats like Mobile, Lucky, or Resilient Wisdom. And that is awesome.

The fact that if I had high Dex and con (say from rolled stats) and can get a super High AC is also awesome.

It's a built in way to have variety among Barbarians.

GlenSmash!

2018-01-10, 01:30 PM

I largely wouldn't change much about the mighty Barbarian. It's a really solid class. And In general I only like to change things that have actually been a problem at my table.

Some tweaks I would consider:

I might switch the level you get Frenzy and Retaliation on Berserkers.

I would actually change quite a bit about the poor poor Battlerager. It's the most limited compared to other subclasses.

Storm Herald's could use some boosts, but I'm not sure what to give them.

Tiger totem could use some love at level 3.

Also on Zealots level 14 ability, it's not that hard for a DM to overcome. And it's essentially at the top end (if not too far away) from what most campaigns reach. Also I think given the Spells that casters are getting at that level it's not earth shattering in comparision.

If it was a Level 3 ability, then yes it would be OP, but I think it's fine where it is.

Ralanr

2018-01-10, 01:35 PM

I'd replace the level 3 bear totem rage with something else and give them "resistance against everything except psychic damage" at a later level for core barbarian. That way barbarian build paths can be less about, "Why should I take this over bear totem?" and more about, "Why should I take X path over Y?"

I'd also replace Brutal Critical with something a little more reliable or active. Not a fan of getting an ability that you can only gain the benefit of 1/20th (I'm sure someone has the math to prove me wrong) as a class ability. Item? Sure. Class? Feels like a empty level fighter problem except it isn't, it's just out of your control.

suplee215

2018-01-10, 01:43 PM

I would slightly change the Battle Rager. Making Spiked Armor a Heavy Weapon so it works with GWM makes it so much better. Basically gives you the extra attack of Polearm Master which barbarians use to no end but allows it with a maul or great sword. I might also consider making Unarmored Defense work alongside Spiked Armor but I never been upset getting hit as a Battle Rager. Just doesn't make sense that AC does down when a barbarian puts on armor. A monk sure, he can no longer dodge but a barbarian blocks a great sword with his chest.

Oramac

2018-01-10, 04:20 PM

BERSERKER
Frenzy: Remove exhaustion. Add: you regain the use of this ability after completing a short or long rest.

This.

Also, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Persistent Rage yet. I'd get rid of that and just bake it in to Rage at the beginning. It's a woefully disappointing feature for such a high level, especially since it's just removing a penalty that was introduced in 5e anyway.

Specter

2018-01-10, 04:42 PM

I'll start a Vhuman Barb with with standard array at 16, 14, 14, 10, 14, 8 with Resilient Wisdom any day.

That's indeed a fine starting array. HP and AC won't help if you're fleeing from battle.

Also on Zealots level 14 ability, it's not that hard for a DM to overcome. And it's essentially at the top end (if not too far away) from what most campaigns reach. Also I think given the Spells that casters are getting at that level it's not earth shattering in comparision.

Thing is, you need a dedicated caster or a flying foe to have any chance at winning against a guy who is at 0hp and won't die. If a Zealot is in a match with another melee, there's pretty much nothing they can do to stop him.

I'd replace the level 3 bear totem rage with something else and give them "resistance against everything except psychic damage" at a later level for core barbarian. That way barbarian build paths can be less about, "Why should I take this over bear totem?" and more about, "Why should I take X path over Y?"

There are plenty of reasons to take other archetypes and totems instead of Bear. Wolf, for example, is useful in every fight, whereas Bear is only handy if your enemy is packing some magical damage and targeting you instead of your buddies.

Lombra

2018-01-10, 05:11 PM

If you could change anything about the Barbarian and its subclasses, what would it be?

Here's what I would do:

BASE
Brutal Critical: There are too many levels where all the Barbarian gets is this. At first, it's a welcome addition, but later the situational damage increase is not impressive, and it just becomes more of the same. At subsequent levels, maybe a movement upgrade could work.

BERSERKER
Frenzy: Add "You recover all exhaustion levels gained from this feature after a long rest." That way you can frenzy at least twice all week without being dead on the 6th day.

Intimidating Presence: If you're going to give a Barbarian something to do while he can't hit foes, why not give it a decent range instead of 30 feet?

TOTEM
Bear (level 3): I wouldn't add necrotic and radiant damage to their resistances. This is for thematic reasons: I don't care how tough you are, your soul is still tender, and not even Paladins and Clerics can remedy that.

Tiger (level 3): This is underwhelmingly ridiculous. "Let's see, I can get resistance to a bunch of stuff or... jump higher..."

Wolf (level 14): Just tripping foes at this level is underwhelming (and doesn't help Shield Masters at all). If you're going for Wolf, might as well give the Barb advantage on attacks if his friends are close by. That would be in line with the other attunement options in power.

ZEALOT
Rage Beyond Death: This, coupled with Relentless Rage and Persistent Rage, is way too much. First you have to bring the Barbarian to 0hp (which will only happen if he fails his CON saves), then you have to find a way to end his rage, which is either moving further than javelin range or having a Wizard to cast Sleep/etc. Savage.

Feel free to disagree and add more stuff.

I agree on brutal critical, it's actually good but it feels underwhelming when you read it.

I'd give the berserker a ribbon that fixes frenzy while keeping it special: starting at 3rd level you recover 1 level of exhaustion after you finish a short rest (this way it stays relwvant in gritty realism too)

Necrotic and radiant are I believe flavored differently by this edition than what you are saying, they don't interact eith the "soul" they're much more pragmatic.

I find zealot to be ok. He's inmortal for one minute, not that OP when looking at the big picture. And as you said, all you need is sleep, or magical restraints, vexing the barbarian with statuses is how you keep him from steamrolling encounters, it's also the reason for which bear totem isn't as strong as people believe, damage is just damage.

The intimidating presence shouldn't key off charisma... I mean wtf. I would make it 8 + prof + level/4 rounded down. It IS powerful but not THAT powerful.

GlenSmash!

2018-01-10, 06:00 PM

HP and AC won't help if you're fleeing from battle. Is this a general statement or are you assuming a Barbarian with those Stats would flee from battle?

A 14 Con barb has fine hitpoints, resistance from Rage, and if wearing medium armor fine AC too.

Thing is, you need a dedicated caster or a flying foe to have any chance at winning against a guy who is at 0hp and won't die. If a Zealot is in a match with another melee, there's pretty much nothing they can do to stop him. Right, but every character has strengths and weakness. This one's strengths is Melee, weaknesses are spells and flyers.

I just don't see it as game breaking.

There are plenty of reasons to take other archetypes and totems instead of Bear. Wolf, for example, is useful in every fight, whereas Bear is only handy if your enemy is packing some magical damage and targeting you instead of your buddies.

I completely agree with this. Bear is great but it doesn't help the rest of the party.

Pex

2018-01-10, 07:03 PM

A 14 Con barb has fine hitpoints, resistance from Rage, and if wearing medium armor fine AC too.

That's the key.

If your barbarian will wear armor, then there is no MAD. 14 DX and you're good to go. ST and CO forever plus a feat or two. However, barbarian players usually want to be like Arnold Schwarzenegger in a loin cloth and utilize Unarmored Defense. They need DX and CO, but they can't neglect ST hence the MAD. 14s are not good enough, and I would not say that's only an optimizer's concern. Being an optimizer's concern is not itself a valid reason to dismiss the concern.

GlenSmash!

2018-01-10, 07:07 PM

However, barbarian players usually want to be like Arnold Schwarzenegger in a loin cloth and utilize Unarmored Defense.

Bah! Robert E. Howard's Conan always wore armor if he had the chance, by Crom!

suplee215

2018-01-10, 07:20 PM

But is Barbarian really martial? (jk)

...I'd add fighting style as well, and reducing the raging times would be reasonable, although I would make the duration longer.

While I do not think a fighting style is needed, I am toying with the idea of a homebrew subclass that gives a fighting style. I am not sure of the total flavor, but the idea of trained barbarian or a more refined one who knows how to best use his rage in a tactical way seems lacking and possible. Plus it'll give Two Weapon Fighting a reason to be used.

Mortis_Elrod

2018-01-10, 07:28 PM

While I do not think a fighting style is needed, I am toying with the idea of a homebrew subclass that gives a fighting style. I am not sure of the total flavor, but the idea of trained barbarian or a more refined one who knows how to best use his rage in a tactical way seems lacking and possible. Plus it'll give Two Weapon Fighting a reason to be used.

really like that idea. Or a barbarian focused on both two weapon fighting and thrown weapons.

Handaxes for days. There's something satisfying about a really angry old man throwing rocks. Might have a reason to make a really old thrower barbarian.

Specter

2018-01-10, 10:03 PM

Is this a general statement or are you assuming a Barbarian with those Stats would flee from battle?

A 14 Con barb has fine hitpoints, resistance from Rage, and if wearing medium armor fine AC too.

Right, but every character has strengths and weakness. This one's strengths is Melee, weaknesses are spells and flyers.

I just don't see it as game breaking.

- I wasn't being ironic. Without a good WIS save, you can be frightened (my example) and charmed and all the other stuff. In these cases, you'll be either absent from battle or fighting your teammates. WIS is good.

- Yeah, but those weaknesses are general Barbarian weaknesses. Rage Beyond Death just makes you invincible against everything else. As it stands, a 20th level Fighter will never win facing a 14th level Zealot, period.

Potato_Priest

2018-01-10, 10:23 PM

The first and most important thing I'd do is change rage to granting extra or temporary hp rather than resistance.

As it stands, the barbarian is encouraged to use rages as soon as is humanly possible (in a battle where they will use them) because it will reduce the damage they take. I'd prefer it if barbarians would be encouraged to save their rages for a thematically appropriate part of the battle to spend them as a response to something triggering their anger. It is also distinctly strange that being angry and ignoring pain protects you against swords but not being set on fire.

After this, I'd give bear totem a new 3st level benefit (since temp hp/extra hp wouldn't worry about damage type anyway). It would probably be something like allowing them to provide half cover to adjacent allies or some other protective feature, but I'm open to suggestions.

Other things I'd do:
Barbarians gain danger sense at 7 rather than 2, fast movement at 9 rather than 5 and feral instinct at 13 rather than 7 to spread out what is a very front and rear loaded class with all the good features at high or low levels and not in between.

Beserker's intimidation would be based on str, not cha.

Malifice

2018-01-11, 03:32 AM

To be honest, the fighting style is already in the rage.

I added the F/S because I took away 1/rage per long rest.

The barbarian gets a slight boost in 'at will' damage, but less uses of rage/ day.

1/long rest at levels 1-2, 2/long rest at levels 3-5, 3/long rest at levels 6-11, 4/long rest at levels 12-16, 5 long rest at levels 17-19, and unlimited at 20th.

That keeps the number of rages/ long rest between 2-4 for the sweet spot of levels 3-16, allowing the barbarian to rage for around 50 percent of encounters (presuming around 6 per long rest).

smcmike

2018-01-11, 08:52 AM

GlenSmash!

2018-01-11, 11:28 AM

- I wasn't being ironic. Without a good WIS save, you can be frightened (my example) and charmed and all the other stuff. In these cases, you'll be either absent from battle or fighting your teammates. WIS is good.

Gotcha, that is an excellent point.

Yeah, but those weaknesses are general Barbarian weaknesses. Rage Beyond Death just makes you invincible against everything else. As it stands, a 20th level Fighter will never win facing a 14th level Zealot, period.

Right, but I don't do PVP. I build encounters to challenge my party.

GlenSmash!

2018-01-11, 11:46 AM

Resistance is very cool and also very simple, but this is a good point. Playing a barbarian I always feel like I should save my rages, thematically, but that really doesn’t make any sense with resistance.

I used to save my rages, but found that wasted rages (ones left unused before a long rest) were very unsatisfying. Now I'll blow through all but one of them as soon as combats come, and save the last one for a BBEG.

smcmike

2018-01-11, 11:52 AM

I used to save my rages, but found that wasted rages (ones left unused before a long rest) were very unsatisfying. Now I'll blow through all but one of them as soon as combats come, and save the last one for a BBEG.

Right, it just stinks that Rage doesn’t work quite like the fiction often does - it would be nice to get hit, then fly into a rage and overthrow your enemies. This is how most fictional equivalents work - the Hulk, for instance, or Joe Abercrombie’s Logan Ninefingers from the First Law books (my favorite depiction of a character who really is just a D&D barbarian). With resistance, you’ve wasted a bunch of the benefit if you let them hit you before raging.

GlenSmash!

2018-01-11, 12:01 PM

Right, it just stinks that Rage doesn’t work quite like the fiction often does - it would be nice to get hit, then fly into a rage and overthrow your enemies. This is how most fictional equivalents work - the Hulk, for instance, or Joe Abercrombie’s Logan Ninefingers from the First Law books (my favorite depiction of a character who really is just a D&D barbarian).

Mine too! I'm referencing him right now in another thread! Love the Bloody Nine.

With resistance, you’ve wasted a bunch of the benefit if you let them hit you before raging.

True. I have been thinking for a while now if activating Rage would be better as a Reaction to being attacked rather than a bonus action on your turn.

On the positive side you can use it like Uncanny Dodge. On the Negative Side you'll be unable to start a combat by Raging.