[AL Advice] Rogue Subclass for my grappling Barbarian/Rogue?

[prototype00]

So I’ve gone and built myself a grappling Barbarian Rogue (expertise and advantage on Athletics checks).

I’ve already got 5 levels of Barbarian and am now going to invest rather heavily into Rogue for that sweet sweet sneak attack Damage.

But which subclass? Right now it’s a tossup betweenArcane Trickster (spells are great!) and Thief (nice Conan-ish flavour). Which of these is better or was there another subclass that had good stuff instead?

[Quoz]

I'm working with a similar fighter rouge build. I will be taking trickster for familiar to give advantage (use scrolls, it's not worth blowing your one free slot) and spellcasting versatility (taking longstrider as my no restriction spell). That said, as a barbarian you don't get concentration and have easier advantage, so you may want to look at other options.

Since grapplers are already team players and more tactical than most, mastermind would be a flavorful option. If you have ranged party members that don't benefit from prone they will love the bonus action help. Thief gives you a climb speed and better jumps for dropping people. GM dependant, bonus action sleight of hand could be used to apply manacles or hog tie with a rope. Scout's ability to move off-turn will almost always find it's trigger, but you probably have better uses for your reaction.

With what you've stated, I would probably go thief or mastermind, depending on whether your party needs more in mobility or control.

[MxKit]

Agreed that while Arcane Trickster gives you some good stuff, especially for those times you're not Raging, the fact that you can't cast or concentrate on spells while Raging does make it a bit less optimal than most.

If you plan on going up to Barbarian 9, and feel like you can sneak well enough to get some surprise attacks in, Assassin 3 would get you some good stuff. Unfortunately, the other features you'd get from that subclass might not fit the feel that you're going for at all.

As Quoz mentioned, Thief and Mastermind are both super solid choices for you. Thief might give you the feel you want more, but being an incredibly sly and clever Barbarian could be really cool too, and that bonus action, 30-foot-range Help feature can't be understated.

That said, Scout and Swashbuckler are also very solid:

Scout 3 lets you move whenever any enemy ends their turn within 5 feet of you if you want, without provoking opportunity attacks, which can help you get to enemies you'd rather be fighting if you want. At Scout 9, you get +10 feet to your walking, climbing, and swimming speeds. By Scout 13, you get advantage on initiative rolls and when you hit someone on the first round of combat, your second attack against them has advantage and so does everyone else's attacks against them until the start of your next turn.

With Swashbuckler 3, anyone you attack can't make opportunity attacks against you, again letting you get to a different enemy on the battlefield more easily, and you can use Sneak Attack just a little more easily, and if you have a decent Charisma you get to add it to your initiative rolls (even a 12 in Charisma helps a little!). At Swashbuckler 9 you can at least try to use Panache to either keep a target on you or charm them (depending on if they're hostile to you), though again it's easier if you have either good Charisma or have Expertise'd Persuasion. Swashbuckler 13 is really good for you, as you can use a bonus action to get advantage on your next Athletics check... say, to grapple. :smallamused:

I'd say... If you want to climb and play with putting down caltrops and ball bearings and things, and maybe eventually be able to use all sorts of magic items, go Thief. If you want to be able to Help your allies a lot, and from a distance, go Mastermind. If you want extra maneuverability and maybe eventually great initiative and extra advantage on attacks, as well as a bit of Outlander flavor, go Scout. If you have a decent Charisma or feel like you can afford to bump it some in the future/are good with spending an Expertise on Persuasion, go Swashbuckler. If you think you can surprise enemies with decent consistency and don't plan on going more than 8 levels into Rogue, go Assassin. If you really do want to spell-sling while you're not raging, go Arcane Trickster.

And, of course, if you really like the flavor of any of those subclasses for your character, just go with that one! Maybe you really like the idea of a sly and cunning Barbarian (Mastermind), or you took the Sailor background and think "aha! Swashbuckler would fit that perfectly!" Or, as you said, Thief feeling Conan-y to you. Nearly all of the Rogue subclasses give you features you could use and that would do well for you, so you don't have to worry too much about making the optimal choice.

[LeonBH]

Thief is the best option due to Fast Hands. You can drop caltrops/ball bearings with a bonus action, or even throw Alchemist's Fire with a bonus action. And you still have your action left to hurt the enemies in some form.

Swashbuckler is the next best option due to their ability to stop people from moving away from you, so that even if your grapple is broken, they still cannot run.

[Cespenar]

One more thing to think about is the ability synergies/clashes between some of the subclasses. For example:

If you're dual wielding for Rage + Sneak Attack, you're using your bonus actions on that each turn. That can clash with:

-Mastermind's aid
-Thief's Fast Hands

Other than that:
-Rage clashes with Arcane Trickster, at least in battle.

+Scout and Swashbuckler give movement bonuses, which are good in combination with grappling, or reaching enemies to dish out the damage.

Just stuff to think about along with your existing playstyle and compare/contrast.

[prototype00]

Thanks for the advice everyone!

It’s currently a tossup between Thief and Scout, really. The Mastermind, Arcanetrickster and Swashbuckler were all a bit situational during Rage or non synergistic with low Cha.

Scout has good synergies with Barbarian, and the reposition when someone approaches is going to save me some grief.

Thief has good options for bonus actions and climb speed.

Hmm...

[LeonBH]

If you've narrowed it down to Scout and Thief, you just have to consider what kind of grappler one or the other will make you.

The Scout will mean you can move a lot - and mobility is highly prized for grapplers. You can Dash with your bonus action due to Cunning Action, and then move at half your speed as a reaction, on top of just moving using your regular speed. So if you had a 30ft movement speed, you can move (30 + 30 + 15)/2 = 37.5 ft (or 35 ft on a grid) per round without using your action.

The Thief, on the other hand, means you will be able to hurt the grappled target more. An attack with Alchemist's Fire (at Disadvantage because it's a ranged attack) means they have to choose to either escape from your grapple with an action, or put out the fire that deals 1d4 damage a round to them as an action. Alternatively, you could try to pour Oil on the ground and ignite it, so they take 5 Fire damage at the end of each of their turns. Or you can manacle them.

Or, since you have a climbing speed, you can climb up a place and drop your held opponent, and then let go and fall on them.

So in summary, Scout = more mobility, Thief = more damage.

[Specter]

Swashbuckler. AT's spells are locked out ib a rage, and Thief requires a longer progression. Sneaking on your own is always good.

[Vaz]

Mastermind. Helping others to gain multile advantage every turn is well decent.