Creating a high level spell slot

[Garfunion]

I recently learned that a sorcerer has the ability to create spell slots at a higher level then they normal have access to. For example 6th level sorcerer can actually create a 4th level spell slot, this is actually intentional according to sage advice.

Now I'm currently in the works at redesigning the sorcerer using the variant spell point system. I've decided to add the sorcerer point table and the spell points together. This would allow a 1st level sorcerer to create a 3rd level spell slot. That will be all the spells they will be able to cast for the day, except for cantrips.

My question is, would you allow that at your table?

Edit: as a reminder they still only know 1st level spells they simply can create a 3rd level spell slot.

[samcifer]

I recently learned that a sorcerer has the ability to create spell slots at a higher level then they normal have access to. For example 6th level sorcerer can actually create a 4th level spell slot, this is actually intentional according to sage advice.

Now I'm currently in the works at redesigning the sorcerer using the variant spell point system. I've decided to add the sorcerer point table and the spell points together. This would allow a 1st level sorcerer to create a 3rd level spell slot. That will be all the spells they will be able to cast for the day, except for cantrips.

My question is, would you allow that at your table?

Edit: as a reminder they still only know 1st level spells they simply can create a 3rd level spell slot.

It's from the DMG and also allows for, even in my opinion as a sorc player myself, far too many sorcery pts. In the end, it would be up to the DM, but I think it's a bit too powerful. Metamagic and flexible casting are supposed to be a limited resource. In my games where a battle is over in two rounds or so, it would give me way too unfair of an advantage.

[Mith]

It's from the DMG and also allows for, even in my opinion as a sorc player myself, far too many sorcery pts. In the end, it would be up to the DM, but I think it's a bit too powerful. Metamagic and flexible casting are supposed to be a limited resource. In my games where a battle is over in two rounds or so, it would give me way too unfair of an advantage.

Personally, I like the idea of a single resource pool to track, and increasing the cost of a spell depending on how much I want to bend it. Would you be in favour of a modified system that gives a slightly greater spell point pool than the PHB sorcerer that allows them to pull this off in a more balanced fashion?

[samcifer]

Personally, I like the idea of a single resource pool to track, and increasing the cost of a spell depending on how much I want to bend it. Would you be in favour of a modified system that gives a slightly greater spell point pool than the PHB sorcerer that allows them to pull this off in a more balanced fashion?

It's just so many sp gained per level. I'm just saying that in my group's playstyle, battles are over very quickly and I'd be Satan-like in how powerful I'd be.

[Garfunion]

The reason why I ask this question is to ensure the sorcerer has enough points to cast spells and metamagic.

The other option would be to reduce the metamagic cost by 1(minimum of 1).

[samcifer]

Well I'm still fairly new to the game and I'm still on my first character, which is a sorc, but sp and spell slots are supposed to be a finite set of resources (unless you're playing a coffee-lock). The DMG version gives too many sp and therefore makes using meta magic far too easy and frequent. It's meant to be used occasionally, not every single turn of every battle like the DMG version seems to indicate would be the case. Maybe, at most, granting 2 sp per level period would be okay, but I think that would be the most a player should be allowed to go, otherwise they will have a massive advantage over all other players as well as the npc creatures.

[LeonBH]

I would allow the spell point variant, but not the adding of spell points and sorcery points together. I would not allow a 1st level Sorc to create 3rd level slots.

Take note that by RAW, a 6th level Sorcerer creating a 4th level spell slot costs 6 Sorcery Points, but he can only create a 3rd level spell slot using spell points.

Also take note that you spend spell points to create spell slots.

Therefore, he has to sacrifice a number of spell slots whose total level equals 6 to create 6 Sorcery Points, and then use those to create a 4th level slot.

1. So you can create three 2nd level slots, costing 9 spell points, to create 6 Sorcery Points, and thus a 4th level slot
2. Or you can create two 3rd level slots, costing 10 spell points, to create 6 Sorcery Points, and thus a 4th level slot
3. Or you can create six 1st level slots, costing 12 spell points, to achieve the same effect

In other words, it is still a lossy conversion using spell points.

[Garfunion]

I would allow the spell point variant, but not the adding of spell points and sorcery points together. I would not allow a 1st level Sorc to create 3rd level slots.

Take note that by RAW, a 6th level Sorcerer creating a 4th level spell slot costs 6 Sorcery Points, but he can only create a 3rd level spell slot using spell points.

Also take note that you spend spell points to create spell slots.

Therefore, he has to sacrifice a number of spell slots whose total level equals 6 to create 6 Sorcery Points, and then use those to create a 4th level slot.

1. So you can create three 2nd level slots, costing 9 spell points, to create 6 Sorcery Points, and thus a 4th level slot
2. Or you can create two 3rd level slots, costing 10 spell points, to create 6 Sorcery Points, and thus a 4th level slot
3. Or you can create six 1st level slots, costing 12 spell points, to achieve the same effect

In other words, it is still a lossy conversion using spell points.

I'm not sure I follow you. If the spell point and sorcery point were a combined system there's only one conversion going on.

So a 1st level sorcerer begins with 4 sorcery points(spell point variant). As part of the same action for casting a spell, the sorcerer can either create two 1st level spell slots for the day or one 2nd level spell slot for the day.

Now if I add in the sorcerer points with the spell points(spell point variant pool + sorcery point pool), a 1st level sorcerer begins with 5 sorcery points. As part of the same action for casting the spell, the sorcerer can either create two 1st level spell slots, create one 2nd level and one 1st level spell slots, or create one 3rd level spell slot for the day.

That is just for 1st level sorcerer.

[LeonBH]

I'm not sure I follow you. If the spell point and sorcery point were a combined system there's only one conversion going on.

So a 1st level sorcerer begins with 4 sorcery points(spell point variant). As part of the same action for casting a spell, the sorcerer can either create two 1st level spell slots for the day or one 2nd level spell slot for the day.

Now if I add in the sorcerer points with the spell points(spell point variant pool + sorcery point pool), a 1st level sorcerer begins with 5 sorcery points. As part of the same action for casting the spell, the sorcerer can either create two 1st level spell slots, create one 2nd level and one 1st level spell slots, or create one 3rd level spell slot for the day.

That is just for 1st level sorcerer.

I was explaining how the system works without homebrew. The spell point and sorcery point pool would remain separate because, before changes, the conversion from spell points to sorcery points to spell slots is lossy. Therefore, adding both pools together is an upgrade to Sorcs that goes beyond what other casting classes get from switching to spell points.

Another note: Flexible casting is a 2nd level ability. So a 1st level Sorcerer wouldn't be able to get 3rd level slots this way.

Also, under your system, the Sorc can create a 5th level spell slot at 2nd level. This is because they receive 6 spell points, and merged with 2 sorcery points, they have a total of 8 points. 5th level spell slots cost 7 points to make. This means Sorcerers get access to 5th level slots seven levels before any other caster.

In the end, I wouldn't let the two pools merge. There's a big balance issue in there, but also, I think it's more fun that way.

[BobZan]

Use Spell Points and merge with Sorcerer Points? No, don't do this.

Reduce Metamagic cost by 1? Seriously? Isn't Sorcerer strong enough already?

[Contrast]

Well I'm still fairly new to the game and I'm still on my first character, which is a sorc, but sp and spell slots are supposed to be a finite set of resources (unless you're playing a coffee-lock). The DMG version gives too many sp and therefore makes using meta magic far too easy and frequent. It's meant to be used occasionally, not every single turn of every battle like the DMG version seems to indicate would be the case. Maybe, at most, granting 2 sp per level period would be okay, but I think that would be the most a player should be allowed to go, otherwise they will have a massive advantage over all other players as well as the npc creatures.

I think you're pretty off base here.

For reference if they started with 4 spell points and gained 2 per level, at level 20 they would roughly only have enough points to be able to recreate the spell slots of level 8 caster. Obviously they have a lot more flexibility but not enough to justify that much of a nerf.

For reference the DMG version doesn't combine sorc points and spell points into a single pool, though that is a relatively common house rule I believe.

[Garfunion]

Use Spell Points and merge with Sorcerer Points? No, don't do this.

Reduce Metamagic cost by 1? Seriously? Isn't Sorcerer strong enough already?

If I don't use(completely cut out) sorcery points, I am in fact gimping the sorcerer.
So by reducing the metamagic cost by 1 (minimum 1) it helps to offset the loss of sorcerer points.

[LeonBH]

If I don't use(completely cut out) sorcery points and I am in fact gimping the sorcerer.
So by reducing the metamagic cost by 1 (minimum 1) it helps to offset the loss of sorcerer points.

I dont understand. How does the sorcerer lose sorcery points?

[Garfunion]

I dont understand. How does the sorcerer lose sorcery points?
In my homebrew sorcerer, it would look silly to have a sorcery point pool and a spell point pool.

[DivisibleByZero]

We've been combining them (for the sorcerer only, as he's the only one that uses spell points) for a few years now. But we ruled that under the SP variant, he can only create slots that he would normally have.
He can choose to use the normal system, and be allowed to create spell slots higher than normal, or he can choose to use spell points, and have one pool, which allows him to use much more metamagic, but he loses the ability to create higher level slots.

[Talamare]

Just combine the DMG Sorcery Points table with the standard Sorcery Points

Play rest as normal

Let the Sorcerer make as high a slot of a spell as he wants, its inefficient anyways.

Take a 3rd level Sorcerer, that casts Scorcher as a 6th level spell (highest he can afford with his 6+3(
Deals 7d8 Fire Damage

and he's done for the Day

Same thing 3rd level Sorcerer, that casts Scorcher as 2nd level spells
Casts it 3x, Deals 9d8 Fire Damage

[Mith]

Reading this thread made me realize that I may be misunderstanding the intention of Spell Points.

I thought Spell points were spent at the casting of the spell, not used to generate a spell slot array at the beginning of the day. Is the latter case the intended way to do it?

[LeonBH]

In my homebrew sorcerer, it would look silly to have a sorcery point pool and a spell point pool.

Right, and you merge them into one pool, meaning you gain more sorcery points. Where is the loss that brings on the 1 sorc point discount to metamagic?


Reading this thread made me realize that I may be misunderstanding the intention of Spell Points.

I thought Spell points were spent at the casting of the spell, not used to generate a spell slot array at the beginning of the day. Is the latter case the intended way to do it?

You got it right. When you spend spell points, you spend them to create a spell slot, and then you cast through that spell slot. Spell slots are still involved, it's just created at will.

DMG 288: "You expend a number of spell points to create a spell slot of a given level, and then use that slot to cast a spell."

[DivisibleByZero]

Reading this thread made me realize that I may be misunderstanding the intention of Spell Points.

I thought Spell points were spent at the casting of the spell, not used to generate a spell slot array at the beginning of the day. Is the latter case the intended way to do it?

No, you have the right of it.
But as a bonus action a sorc can spend sorcery points to create a slot that he needs. There is no stipulation on the level of the slot. So he can actually create slots of a level which he normally doesn't have by spending all of his points in one go.
With the spell point variant, if the DM allows you to combine the pools, this can happen multiple times, which is where the problems arise.

[LeonBH]

No, you have the right of it.
But as a bonus action a sorc can spend sorcery points to create a slot that he needs. There is no stipulation on the level of the slot. So he can actually create slots of a level which he normally doesn't have by spending all of his points in one go.
With the spell point variant, if the DM allows you to combine the pools, this can happen multiple times, which is where the problems arise.

Indeed. It's very handy for opening with 5th level spells two levels before the monsters are prepared for 5th level spells. And if you spend the spells wisely, you'll still have a pool of sorcery points for metamagic, too.

[Garfunion]

Right, and you merge them into one pool, meaning you gain more sorcery points. Where is the loss that brings on the 1 sorc point discount to metamagic. Correct. It is about presenting the Sorcerer in a unique way, while keeping it simple.

Edit: if these is still a nerf, than I can add more features to the class.

[LeonBH]

Correct. It is about presenting the Sorcerer in a unique way, while keeping it simple.

Edit: if these is still a nerf, than I can add more features to the class.

No, I mean to say that I'm confused.

1. You are using spell points instead of spell slots. This is a buff.
2. You are then merging spell points and sorcery points. This is another buff.

There is no nerf or loss that I can see happening. Why is it a nerf, and where is the need to discount metamagic costs by 1?

[BobZan]

I don't understand the discount on metamagic yet.

If the Spell Point system replaces the normal spell slots, adding sorcerer points to the pool would let you do metamagic normally. Even more metamagic/day. So, why reduce the cost by 1?

To make it unique and very very powerful?

[DivisibleByZero]

No, I mean to say that I'm confused.

1. You are using spell points instead of spell slots. This is a buff.
2. You are then merging spell points and sorcery points. This is another buff.

There is no nerf or loss that I can see happening. Why is it a nerf, and where is the need to discount metamagic costs by 1?

Exactly.
I could even see an argument for increasing metamagic costs to compensate. But reducing them? That's borderline ridiculous.

[Garfunion]

No, I mean to say that I'm confused.

1. You are using spell points instead of spell slots. This is a buff.
2. You are then merging spell points and sorcery points. This is another buff.

There is no nerf or loss that I can see happening. Why is it a nerf, and where is the need to discount metamagic costs by 1? ok now I know what you are asking.
1. Yes but rename them sorcery points.
2. No. If merging the two systems is to much of a buff I would removed it entirely.

Point 1. Is the only system in place. A sorcerer will have to sacrifice potential spell slots to use a metamagic. Which is why I suggested to reduce metamagic cost by 1(minimum 1).

[BobZan]

ok now I know what you are asking.
1. Yes but rename them sorcery points.
2. No. If merging the two systems is to much of a buff I would removed it entirely.

If point 1. Is the only system in place. A sorcerer will have to sacrifice potential spell slots to use a metamagic. Which is why I suggested to reduce metamagic cost by 1(minimum 1).

The original official Sorcerer has to sacrifice potential spell slots to use a metamagic.

[Garfunion]

The original official Sorcerer has to sacrifice potential spell slots to use a metamagic. but it also has sorcery point to compensate.

[BobZan]

but it also has sorcery point to compensate.

Your Sorcerer also has his Sorcery Points added to SP.

[LeonBH]

ok now I know what you are asking.
1. Yes but rename them sorcery points.
2. No. If merging the two systems is to much of a buff I would removed it entirely.

Point 1. Is the only system in place. A sorcerer will have to sacrifice potential spell slots to use a metamagic. Which is why I suggested to reduce metamagic cost by 1(minimum 1).

So, to see if I understand what you're suggesting, you're saying that for (2), you will use the spell point variant but rename it to sorcery points, and remove all the sorcery points a sorcerer will naturally get. So the sorcerer will have a number of sorcery points (and no spell points) equal to the following:

level 1: 4 sorcery points
level 2: 6 sorcery points
level 3: 14 sorcery points
level 4: 17 sorcery points
level 5: 27 sorcery points
level 6: 32 sorcery points

And so on. And then the metamagic costs will be reduced by 1?

Did I understand that correctly?

[Garfunion]

So, to see if I understand what you're suggesting, you're saying that for (2), you will use the spell point variant but rename it to sorcery points, and remove all the sorcery points a sorcerer will naturally get. So the sorcerer will have a number of sorcery points (and no spell points) equal to the following:

level 1: 4 sorcery points
level 2: 6 sorcery points
level 3: 14 sorcery points
level 4: 17 sorcery points
level 5: 27 sorcery points
level 6: 32 sorcery points

And so on. And then the metamagic costs will be reduced by 1?

Did I understand that correctly?

That is Correct.
It would probably be easier for me to just create the sorcerer for a visual aid instead of discussing bits and pieces about it

[BobZan]

The way you said on OP, I understood that you would add them together.

Sorcery Points + Spell Points.

Would be a buff, but manageable. Reduce metamagic cost can create odd interactions. For example: Quicken for 1 SP.

[LeonBH]

That is Correct

Well, that is still powerful. There are three metamagics that require more than 1 sorc point: Heighten, Quicken, and Twin. Quicken gets the biggest boost, since it's cost got cut by half. And Heighten is a lot better now, being much cheaper.

I don't know. The Sorcerer has less magic overall this way. He has to choose between spells and metamagic. Using even just 1 metamagic means he casts less spells than other casters.

But then again, this makes Sorlocks incredibly efficient. Quickened Empowered Eldritch Blast + Empowered Eldritch Blast becomes very cheap, and it won't cost a bonus action to replenish your sorcery point pool anymore.

It also means your 5th level Sorcerer can fling a 5th level Quickened Empowered Fireball, costing him 9 Sorcery Points and a bonus action, while still having an action left to run, dodge, or cast a cantrip. Most encounters at level 5 will be a walk in the park.

But then... you won't be able to access 6th level spells or higher. Unless you lift that rule where Sorcerers can only make 5th level spell slots. But if you do that, under (2), your 4th level Sorcerer can cast a 9th level Quickened Scorching Ray and still have 3 Sorcery Points left for cantrips.

So, it makes the Sorc an incredibly efficient resource eater, while also making their novas much more powerful.

[Garfunion]

The way you said on OP, I understood that you would add them together.

Sorcery Points + Spell Points.

Would be a buff, but manageable. Reduce metamagic cost can create odd interactions. For example: Quicken for 1 SP.

That was the original first post. But the discussion has evolved since then to remove sorcery points(as they were) entirely and just keep spell point variant pool(renaming them to sorcery points).

[BobZan]

That was the original first post. But the discussion has evolved since then to remove sorcery points(as they were) entirely and just keep spell point variant pool(renaming them to sorcery points).

Don't do that. That's a nerf.

Spell Point variant is stronger, but manageable. You'll be trading it for 2 class features. Just add Sorcery Points (Sorc level) to the SP pool and keep metamagic as it is.

[Garfunion]

Well, that is still powerful. There are three metamagics that require more than 1 sorc point: Heighten, Quicken, and Twin. Quicken gets the biggest boost, since it's cost got cut by half. And Heighten is a lot better now, being much cheaper.

I don't know. The Sorcerer has less magic overall this way. He has to choose between spells and metamagic. Using even just 1 metamagic means he casts less spells than other casters.

But then again, this makes Sorlocks incredibly efficient. Quickened Empowered Eldritch Blast + Empowered Eldritch Blast becomes very cheap, and it won't cost a bonus action to replenish your sorcery point pool anymore.

It also means your 5th level Sorcerer can fling a 5th level Quickened Empowered Fireball, costing him 9 Sorcery Points and a bonus action, while still having an action left to run, dodge, or cast a cantrip. Most encounters at level 5 will be a walk in the park.

But then... you won't be able to access 6th level spells or higher. Unless you lift that rule where Sorcerers can only make 5th level spell slots. But if you do that, under (2), your 4th level Sorcerer can cast a 9th level Quickened Scorching Ray and still have 3 Sorcery Points left for cantrips.

So, it makes the Sorc an incredibly efficient resource eater, while also making their novas much more powerful.
I should have mentioned that you don't get the sacrifice spell slots in order to create more sorcery points.

[LeonBH]

I should have mentioned that you don't get the sacrifice spell slots in order to create more sorcery points.

Correct. Nothing in what I said ever sacrificed spell slots.

If I understand you correctly, under (2), why can't a 4th level sorcerer who has 17 Sorcery Points create a 9th level spell slot using 13 of those Sorcery Points and cast a 9th level Quickened Scorching Ray?

[Garfunion]

Correct. Nothing in what I said ever sacrificed spell slots.

If I understand you correctly, under (2), why can't a 4th level sorcerer who has 17 Sorcery Points create a 9th level spell slot using 13 of those Sorcery Points and cast a 9th level Quickened Scorching Ray?
I'm keeping the creating a spell slot table the same as presented in the original sorcerer. I will be adding a similar system that the warlock has for mystical arcanum.

[LeonBH]

I'm keeping the creating a spell slot table the same as presented in the original sorcerer. I will be adding a similar system that the warlock has for mystical arcanum.

I see. And the max spell slot you can create is still 5th level?

In that case, it's still too strong. A 5th level Sorc can still cast a 5th level Quickened Fireball this way, 4 levels early. But perhaps if you playtest it, we'll see differently. It does require a lot of planning and conserving to play this particular style right.

[Contrast]

In that case, it's still too strong. A 5th level Sorc can still cast a 5th level Quickened Fireball this way, 4 levels early.

I've inclined to agree with Talamare - is this really that powerful? 2d6 extra damage at the cost of losing out on a 1st level spell doesn't seem all that gamebreaking to me. Upcasting tends to be pretty inefficient.

I agree using spell points is a significant power boost due to the flexibility but I also feel sorc sort of need the boost so *shrugs*

[LeonBH]

I've inclined to agree with Talamare - is this really that powerful? 2d6 extra damage at the cost of losing out on a 1st level spell doesn't seem all that gamebreaking to me. Upcasting tends to be pretty inefficient.

I agree using spell points is a significant power boost due to the flexibility but I also feel sorc sort of need the boost so *shrugs*

If it was Fireball and the foes were AoE, maybe it won't scratch a singular target so much.

But consider Scorching Ray: that is 12d6 damage to one target. Now consider a Sorc with Magic Initiate: Warlock, thus getting Hex. That is 18d6 to one target. And now consider a Sorlock with Agonizing Blast, a 2-level Warlock dip with 16 CHA. That is 18d6 as a bonus action (Quickened) and 2d10+2d6+6 as an action (EB).

At level 5, the Sorc can do that three times before running out.

Yes, the Sorcerer wouldn't get as many spells per day this way, but many BBEGs will turn to mush when faced with this guy at the level he's at.

[Talamare]

If it was Fireball and the foes were AoE, maybe it won't scratch a singular target so much.

But consider Scorching Ray: that is 12d6 damage to one target. Now consider a Sorc with Magic Initiate: Warlock, thus getting Hex. That is 18d6 to one target. And now consider a Sorlock with Agonizing Blast, a 2-level Warlock dip with 16 CHA. That is 18d6 as a bonus action (Quickened) and 2d10+2d6+6 as an action (EB).

At level 5, the Sorc can do that three times before running out.

Yes, the Sorcerer wouldn't get as many spells per day this way, but many BBEGs will turn to mush when faced with this guy at the level he's at.

Scorching Ray being one of the extremely few spells that don't become inefficient as it increases in level

[LeonBH]

Scorching Ray being one of the extremely few spells that don't become inefficient as it increases in level

Correct, and it's in the Sorcerer spell list. It should be taken into consideration.

[Talamare]

Correct, and it's in the Sorcerer spell list. It should be taken into consideration.

I was slightly wrong about the inefficiency, since technically it gets 3 rays base, and each rank gets another ray

So using only Rank 2, 32 to spend with 5 spent on an 8hr Hex

Rank 2 = 3 * 3d6 * 27/3 = 81d6
Rank 3 = 4 * 3d6 * 27/5 = 60d6
Rank 4 = 5 * 3d6 * 27/6 = 69d6
Rank 5 = 6 * 3d6 * 27/7 = 69d6
Rank 6 = 7 * 3d6 * 27/9 = 63d6
Rank 7 = 8 * 3d6 * 27/10 = 66d6
Rank 8 = 9 * 3d6 * 27/11 = 66d6
Rank 9 = 10 * 3d6 * 27/13 = 60d6

Assumes spending all resources on largest possible cast, so for example. 27/10 = 2, with 7 left over, so spends it on a rank 5 cast
I suppose tho doing 30d6 in 1 turn is a bit of a shock, especially if you haven't properly set a standard adventuring day.
As in, you only do 2-3 fights a day so the Sorcerer would still have this ready to blast.

[LeonBH]

Accurate only for ranks 2-5. He's instituting a Mystic Arcanum ability for levels 6+ instead of higher level spell slots.

[Garfunion]

I posted my sorcerer changes in the homebrew forum. Here's the link if you are still curious.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?547207-My-5e-sorcerer-redesign-(PEACH)&p=22748011#post22748011

[Contrast]

Accurate only for ranks 2-5. He's instituting a Mystic Arcanum ability for levels 6+ instead of higher level spell slots.

Also worth noting sorcs can't use flexible casting to create higher than 5th level spells anyway and the spell point system otherwise locks you into only spell slots of your normal max for your level.

Plus the scorching ray damage relies on the attacks hitting.

So if you're a level 2 warlock, level 3 sorc you've got 14 spell points and two level 1 warlock slots so you could hex and cast a level 5 scorching ray for 15d6 (52.5) damage to a single target twice a day and then you'd be reliant on short resting for level 1 spells to convert. Assuming a Cha of 16 you'd hit 50% on AC17 which would drop your damage down to 7.5d6 (26.25). It's worth noting as a warlock your normal damage at this point is 2d10+2d6+6 (24) or 12 with a 50% hit chance.

Compare this to a ranged fighter who is doing 2d8+6+20 (35) a turn or 4d8+12+40 (70) when action surging. He'd only be hitting AC 17 35% of the time reducing averages down to 12.25 and 24.5 respectively. The archer also get the bonus of being able to split targets without losing damage unlike the sorc who needs to hit the hexed target for the bonus damage.

Happy to be corrected if I've gone astray with the math somewhere here but this doesn't seem terribly out of whack to me.

I haven't factored in crit chance in the above which would change things slightly in favour of scorching ray but couldn't be bothered with the math. :smalltongue:

[LeonBH]

Also worth noting sorcs can't use flexible casting to create higher than 5th level spells anyway and the spell point system otherwise locks you into only spell slots of your normal max for your level.

Yes, but before he said he was instituting Mystic Arcanum for the Sorcerers, we had to assume they could create 6th+ spell slots, or else no Sorcs could cast beyond 5th level.


So if you're a level 2 warlock, level 3 sorc you've got 14 spell points and two level 1 warlock slots so you could hex and cast a level 5 scorching ray for 15d6 (52.5) damage to a single target twice a day and then you'd be reliant on short resting for level 1 spells to convert. Assuming a Cha of 16 you'd hit 50% on AC17 which would drop your damage down to 7.5d6 (26.25). It's worth noting as a warlock your normal damage at this point is 2d10+2d6+6 (24) or 12 with a 50% hit chance.

Compare this to a ranged fighter who is doing 2d8+6+20 (35) a turn or 4d8+12+40 (70) when action surging. He'd only be hitting AC 17 35% of the time reducing averages down to 12.25 and 24.5 respectively.

Yes, but a 5th level Sorcerer has 27 spell points. Without reliance on Hex, he can cast Scorching Ray at 2nd level nine times. Assuming 18 CHA, against AC 17, that is 6d6 (24) damage with a 55% chance to hit, or 13.2

He may instead create three 5th level slots and one 4th level slot. The 5th level slot will deal 12d6 (42) damage while the 4th level slot will deal 10d6 (35) damage. After chance to hit, that is 23.1 and 19.25 respectively.

Now throw in three things:

1. Hex, either from a 1st level feat (V. Human) or a Warlock dip
2. Metamagic, specifically Quicken Spell, which costs 1 Sorc Point under this system3
3. Eldritch Blast and Agonizing Blast, from a Warlock dip

(1) Applying only Hex to Scorching Ray, for a 2nd level spell he deals 9d6 (31.5), for a 4th level spell he deals 15d6 (52.5), and for a 5th level spell slot that is 18d6 (63). After the 55% chance to hit, those become 17.325, 28.875, and 34.65. Remember that 2nd level spells can be cast 9 times, or 5th level spells 3 times.

Take note that, already, the pure Sorcerer is dealing more damage, more sustainably, than the ranged fighter in your example. Their weakest damage deals more than the ranged fighter's weaker damage, whereas their strongest damage deals more damage than the ranged fighter's strongest damage. And this is only using the first item on the list.

(2) Applying metamagic to this, the Sorcerer can Quicken the casting of Scorching Ray and cast a Firebolt, doing 2d10+1d6 (14.5) damage to the target. After accuracy, that is 7.975.

This is not a huge power boost, but it puts the ranged fighter further down the Sorcerer in terms of damage even more. Spending 1 Sorc Point on Quicken, 2nd level spells can only be cast 6 times, while 5th level spells can still be cast 3 times.

Adding 7.975 to the three numbers above, the Sorc can deal 25.3, 36.85, and 42.625. Notice how the 2nd level spell slot's damage is now higher than the ranged fighter's action surge damage, and note that the Sorcerer can do this multiple times, while the range fighter can only do it once.

(3) Switch to a Sorc 3/Lock 2 build. The Sorcerer only has 14 spell points now but has gained Eldritch Blast and Agonizing Blast. Assume a CHA of 16 and thus a hit chance of 50% against AC 17. He can craft Quickened 2nd level spells three times, and Quickened 5th level spells once and have enough left over for a Quickened 3rd level spell.

Then with a bonus action, the Sorc deals the aforementioned 31.5 damage with a 2nd level spell, and 63 damage with a 5th level spell. After chance to hit, that is 15.75 and 31.5 damage respectively.

Once you factor in Eldritch Blast, you are dealing 2d10+2d6+6 (24) damage with your action, which is 12 after accuracy is considered.

Then the Sorc deals 27.75 with a 2nd level spell, and 43.5 with a 5th level spell. This is more damage than (2). But also remember that as the Sorc grows in levels, they get more spell points. So each level up they take in Sorcerer lets them nova more often. Whereas the ranged fighter has to wait until 11th level to get a significant boost, and can only action surge once until 19th level.


The archer also get the bonus of being able to split targets without losing damage unlike the sorc who needs to hit the hexed target for the bonus damage.

Hex can be transferred with a bonus action once the target is dead, so this isn't 100% true.

[Contrast]

Yes, but before he said he was instituting Mystic Arcanum for the Sorcerers, we had to assume they could create 6th+ spell slots, or else no Sorcs could cast beyond 5th level.

Flexible casting lets you create up to 5th level spell slots but no higher. Spell point system only lets you create spell slots of 6th level or higher when you reach 11th level as normal and says you can only do one slot per each of these levels per long rest.

Where's the loop hole that lets you cast 6+ level spell slots early/more than one?


2. Metamagic, specifically Quicken Spell, which costs 1 Sorc Point under this system3

For reference I'm inclined to agree OPs suggested metamagic reduction is too much.


Take note that, already, the pure Sorcerer is dealing more damage, more sustainably, than the ranged fighter in your example. Their weakest damage deals more than the ranged fighter's weaker damage, whereas their strongest damage deals more damage than the ranged fighter's strongest damage.

I note I just used a base warrior. A battlemaster could add 10 dpr by using precision strike (or potentially more if you've got a rogue you can commanders strike). My point really was that I didn't find the argument 'this is totally busted because if you dedicate all your resources to it and invest particular feats/multiclassing, you can nova slightly harder than a straight fighter!' particularly compelling.


Hex can be transferred with a bonus action once the target is dead, so this isn't 100% true.

I was working on the assumption at that level that you wouldn't have the spell points for higher level versions so you'd probably cast hex the turn you cast the spell and hence wouldn't have the bonus action to shift it but sure, just thought it was worth pointing out that you often won't actually be getting all this damage unless you are just fighting one big target.

That said of course sharpshooters also often miss out on damage by overkilling people so who knows :smallbiggrin:

[LeonBH]

Flexible casting lets you create up to 5th level spell slots but no higher. Spell point system only lets you create spell slots of 6th level or higher when you reach 11th level as normal and says you can only do one slot per each of these levels per long rest.

Where's the loop hole that lets you cast 6+ level spell slots early/more than one?

This is a homebrew discussion. The proposed system was going to take spell slots and replace it with sorcery points. Assume an 11th level Sorcerer, and assume you did not know Sorcerers were going to get Mystic Arcanum.

How do you think a Sorcerer can cast 6th level spells?


I note I just used a base warrior. A battlemaster could add 10 dpr by using precision strike (or potentially more if you've got a rogue you can commanders strike). My point really was that I didn't find the argument 'this is totally busted because if you dedicate all your resources to it and invest particular feats/multiclassing, you can nova slightly harder than a straight fighter!' particularly compelling.

That wasn't the argument I was making. It was "CR 5 monsters are not prepared for 5th level spells." You are also understating the amount of nova, because it is not "slightly harder." It is 80% more, and it can be done more often by a Sorcerer than a Fighter.


I was working on the assumption at that level that you wouldn't have the spell points for higher level versions so you'd probably cast hex the turn you cast the spell and hence wouldn't have the bonus action to shift it but sure, just thought it was worth pointing out that you often won't actually be getting all this damage unless you are just fighting one big target.

That said of course sharpshooters also often miss out on damage by overkilling people so who knows :smallbiggrin:

Unless your combat lasts 1 round only, you are going to get all this damage in against a single creature.

And against a mob, of course you're going to use Fireball instead. Using just the 3rd level version, a 5th level Sorcerer can cast five of those, dealing 28 Fire damage to each creature in the area. If the blast hits 2 creatures, then that is 56 average Fire damage.

The Fighter is outclassed by the Sorcerer in every way, under this system.