Acid/alchemist fire/holy water abuse

[Quoz]

Ok, this came up in another thread discussing rogue archetypes, but I thought it an interesting enough tangent to merit it's own discussion.

A thief's level 3 feature grants the ability to use an object as a bonus action. By any reasonable interpretation that would include almost all the items listed in the phb adventuring gear section, specifically things like caltrops, ball bearings, and hunters traps. I believe it is pretty reasonable to include acid flasks, alchemist fire, and holy water under this as well as they use very similar wording. The only difference is that using them requires an attack as a ranged improvised weapon.

Where it gets interesting is that a thief can also use sneak attack with these items. Since they are specifically stated to be a ranged weapon, they meet the requirement for sneak attack. My personal reading is that the damage listed replaces the normal 1d4 + stat for an improvised weapon, but I can see a reasonable interpretation to add that damage as well.

So in the most generous reading, a thief can make a bonus action attack with an acid flask for 1d4 + 2d6 + dex + sneak attack as a measly 25 gold per shot. Less if he has proficiency with alchemy kits and makes his own. And it would be possible to use with most other ways that rogues can get to boost damage even higher.

There are some issues with this approach, the most obvious being the lack of proficiency. The only RAW way to gain proficiency with improvised weapons is through the tavern brawler feat. (Weapon master and Kensei may also allow this, but that is very much a GM ruling.) It is a little worse on action economy than crossbow expertise as it needs to use your object interaction and effectively disarms you after each use. It is also probably incompatible with extra attack, as it expressly states "as an action", but a multiclass rogue would be able to throw a potion as a bonus action and get off their regular attack with a two handed weapon like a longbow or even a greatsword on a really wierd build.

Has anyone seen this used in practice? Am I just getting a bad read on this and missing something obvious? Should I spring this on an unsuspecting GM for a laugh? Are there better ways to make this even more abusive?

[Unoriginal]

Attacking with an action is the Attack action, not the Use an Item action.

[LeonBH]

Attacking with an action is the Attack action, not the Use an Item action.

Not in this case. Alchemist Fire, for example, requires an entire action to throw. That means it is incompatible with Extra Attack and thus the Attack action.

You could make a case that it is its own action, like how activating magic items or drinking potions are their own actions. But I don't believe the wording is consistent with the Attack action.

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Anyway, Sneak Attack triggers 1/turn, so it's not that different from dual wielding daggers. The difference is just this deals a bit more damage bit is less accurate.

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It also doesn't use your object interaction since using objects is a Use An Object action.

[Quoz]

The same principle could also apply to spell scrolls, wands, or other magic items. A thief with a cross class or magic initiate that stocks up on scrolls of greenflame blade or eldritch blast for instance.

[LeonBH]

The same principle could also apply to spell scrolls, wands, or other magic items. A thief with a cross class or magic initiate that stocks up on scrolls of greenflame blade or eldritch blast for instance.

No, magic items don't use the Use an Object action.

[Unoriginal]

Not in this case. Alchemist Fire, for example, requires an entire action to throw. That means it is incompatible with Extra Attack and thus the Attack action.

You could make a case that it is its own action, like how activating magic items or drinking potions are their own actions. But I don't believe the wording is consistent with the Attack action.

I was wrong, you're right. In that case, you can't use Sneak Attack with them. Flasks of liquids are neither ranged nor Finesse weapons.

Also, if it takes an entire action to throw, it's also incompatible with the Use an Item action, meaning the Rogue won't get to do it as a bonus action.

[mephnick]

I played up to a Fighter1/Thief 5 for a bit. Fast hands has a few uses, but has a few major limitations:

- Can't sneak attack with items
- Aren't proficient with them without Tavern Brawler, so you'll miss a lot
- Throwing items in melee range suffers disadvantage
- The damage items are prohibitively expensive at the levels they're most useful
- The cheap items (ball bearings, caltrops) need very specific circumstances to be useful, otherwise can be bypassed as difficult terrain for 5ft

I found that the best use of Fast Hands was switching weapons or donning/doffing a shield as a bonus action (had 1 level of Fighter), or using the Sleight of Hand checks.

Fast Hands seems like the highlight of the subclass until you play it, then you realize that it's the rest of the stuff that makes the Thief shine. Second Story Work is legit if your DM uses terrain at all in combat.

[LeonBH]

I was wrong, you're right. In that case, you can't use Sneak Attack with them. Flasks of liquids are neither ranged nor Finesse weapons.Also, if it takes an entire action to throw, it's also incompatible with the Use an Item action, meaning the Rogue won't get to do it as a bonus action.Well, the flask of acid and alchemist fire specifically say they are ranged weapon attacks, so they trigger Sneak Attack. Also, using them is covered by the Use an Object action (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/49825/what-does-use-an-obstackexchange).

[Kuulvheysoon]

I played up to a Fighter1/Thief 5 for a bit. Fast hands has a few uses, but has a few major limitations:

- Can't sneak attack with items
- Aren't proficient with them without Tavern Brawler, so you'll miss a lot
- Throwing items in melee range suffers disadvantage
- The damage items are prohibitively expensive at the levels they're most useful
- The cheap items (ball bearings, caltrops) need very specific circumstances to be useful, otherwise can be bypassed as difficult terrain for 5ft

I found that the best use of Fast Hands was switching weapons or donning/doffing a shield as a bonus action (had 1 level of Fighter), or using the Sleight of Hand checks.

Fast Hands seems like the highlight of the subclass until you play it, then you realize that it's the rest of the stuff that makes the Thief shine. Second Story Work is legit if your DM uses terrain at all in combat.

Just going to point out that technically, you can’t use Fast Hands to don/doff a shield. It takes its own action (under the armor section), it’s not a Use an Object interaction.

[mephnick]

Well, the flask of acid and alchemist fire specifically say they are ranged weapon attacks, so they trigger Sneak Attack. Also, using them is covered by the Use an Object action (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/49825/what-does-use-an-obstackexchange).

Yay confusing text, but no. The flasks let you make ranged attacks, but they are not ranged weapons, so are not applicable to proc sneak attack. Sneak attack must be a ranged weapon attack.

[mephnick]

Just going to point out that technically, you can’t use Fast Hands to don/doff a shield. It takes its own action (under the armor section), it’s not a Use an Object interaction.

Crawford clarified somewhere that it was allowed. Someone can find the link for me if they feel like it.

[Unoriginal]

Well, the flask of acid and alchemist fire specifically say they are ranged weapon attacks, so they trigger Sneak Attack.

They're improvised weapons that you throw. Pretty sure you can't use Sneak Attack with those.

[LeonBH]

Yay confusing text, but no. The flasks let you make ranged attacks, but they are not ranged weapons, so are not applicable to proc sneak attack. Sneak attack must be a ranged weapon attack.Ah, that's debatable. The flasks are to be treated as improvised weapons - which means they are weapons. And you make ranged attacks to use them.

If improvised weapons do not trigger Sneak Attack, then neither would the flasks. But improvised weapons are listed under the Weapon section of the PHB, leading me to believe they are also classified as such.

[mephnick]

It's another thing I think was clarified by Crawford at some point but I think I'm done with the "chase random tweets to prove things" part of this edition.

[JackPhoenix]

Ah, that's debatable. The flasks are to be treated as improvised weapons - which means they are weapons. And you make ranged attacks to use them.

If improvised weapons do not trigger Sneak Attack, then neither would the flasks. But improvised weapons are listed under the Weapon section of the PHB, leading me to believe they are also classified as such.

Ranged weapon attack =/= attack with a ranged or finesse weapon. You can make ranged attacks with melee weapons (anything thrown except dart and net) or melee attacks with ranged weapons (though as an improvised weapon). RAW, you get sneak attack damage if you smack someone with a longbow in melee. Even better, as longbow is Heavy ranged weapon, you can stack GWM and Sharpshooter if you use it to beat people to death. (first require melee attack with heavy weapon, the other requires attack with ranged weapon, and technically you're proficient with longbow, even though you don't add your proficiency bonus to use it in melee, as it count as improvised weapon in that case)

[LeonBH]

Ranged weapon attack =/= attack with a ranged or finesse weapon.

Sneak Attack requires you to make an attack that involves a ranged weapon. It doesn't say "ranged weapon attack." So the equivalency is not useful, since Sneak Attack falls on the right side of that equation, and Alchemist Fire falls on the right side of that equation too.

[Unoriginal]

Sneak Attack requires you to make an attack that involves a ranged weapon. It doesn't say "ranged weapon attack." So the equivalency is not useful, since Sneak Attack falls on the right side of that equation, and Alchemist Fire falls on the right side of that equation too.

Alchemist Fire is not a ranged weapon. It's an improvised weapon that you throw. It's not the same than a ranged weapon, just like you can't do a Sneak Attack by throwing a longsword at someone.

[Beelzebubba]

A thief's level 3 feature grants the ability to use an object as a bonus action. By any reasonable interpretation that would include almost all the items listed in the phb adventuring gear section, specifically things like caltrops, ball bearings, and hunters traps. I believe it is pretty reasonable to include acid flasks, alchemist fire, and holy water under this as well as they use very similar wording. The only difference is that using them requires an attack as a ranged improvised weapon.

Which is why it doesn't work, IMO. Use An Object is listed as a distinctly different action in the Combat section - so it can't include an Attack. It's also separate in the round's action economy - i.e. one Attack, one Move, one Use Object. They are mutually exclusive.


So in the most generous reading, a thief can make a bonus action attack with an acid flask for 1d4 + 2d6 + dex + sneak attack as a measly 25 gold per shot. Less if he has proficiency with alchemy kits and makes his own. And it would be possible to use with most other ways that rogues can get to boost damage even higher.

I'm with others here, too generous, IMO. It's not an Attack. It's for shutting a trap door, applying poison to their weapon, dropping caltrops or ball bearings, using a healing kit, picking a lock, swapping a weapon, stuff like that.

Allowing it to be an actual attack to do HP damage would be getting into Fighter territory. Allowing it to trigger a Sneak Attack would be in the realm of complete overkill. Neither one of those seem in the spirit of it, which is being able to interact with the tools of their trade fast enough to be worth doing within the normal action economy. They need this because they are a gadget-driven class that interacts with the environment more than the other classes. So, at 3rd level, it becomes:

Melee: (Free) Draw sword, (Action) Sneak Attack with melee, (Bonus) Disengage, Move
Ranged: (Bonus) Apply poison to arrows, (Free) Draw bow, (Action) Sneak Attack, Move
Out of Combat: (Action) Spread caltrops, (Free) Close door, (Action) Dash to move, Move

Without the 3rd level expansion to their Bonus Action they'd be hindered in relation to spellcasters (whose spells often combine several effects into one) or martials (who get multiple attacks and sometimes action surges).

[LeonBH]

Alchemist Fire is not a ranged weapon. It's an improvised weapon that you throw. It's not the same than a ranged weapon, just like you can't do a Sneak Attack by throwing a longsword at someone.

I suppose you're right. So it doesn't proc Sneak Attack, but it is still a possible use of Fast Hands.


Which is why it doesn't work, IMO. Use An Object is listed as a distinctly different action in the Combat section - so it can't include an Attack.

It's not the Attack action, but there's no reason it can't include an attack roll. For example, Opportunity Attacks are reactions that involve attack rolls, but not the Attack action. Spell attacks use the Cast a Spell action. There are two spells that make you roll weapon attacks. There also are bonus action features like Frenzy Rage which enable you to make an attack roll. None of these is the Attack action.

Attack action =/= attack rolls. And the Attack action doesn't have a monopoly on attack rolls. So you don't need to take the Attack action to make an attack roll.

Use an Object Action (PHB 193): "When an object requires your action for its use, you take the Use an Object action."

If that object's use happens to involve an attack roll, it is still the Use an Object action.


It's also separate in the round's action economy - i.e. one Attack, one Move, one Use Object. They are mutually exclusive.

You're thinking about the free minor object interaction you get per round, such as drawing a sword. However, you cannot drop caltrops or ball bearings with that free object interaction. Dropping those items requires using your action, which normally means giving up your attacks for that round.


I'm with others here, too generous, IMO. It's not an Attack. It's for shutting a trap door, applying poison to their weapon, dropping caltrops or ball bearings, using a healing kit, picking a lock, swapping a weapon, stuff like that.

Applying poison to your weapon in the middle of combat constitutes an action, not a free object interaction. Swapping your weapon also constitutes a full action. Fast Hands lets you do that for a bonus action instead, but without that feature, you are left without an action if you do those things.

In other words: it's not normally free. Fast Hands lets you do it for a bonus action, but even then it's not free. It's using the Thief's Cunning Action feature.

[JackPhoenix]

It's not the Attack action, but there's no reason it can't include an attack roll. For example, Opportunity Attacks are reactions that involve attack rolls, but not the Attack action. Spell attacks use the Cast a Spell action. There are two spells that make you roll weapon attacks. There also are bonus action features like Frenzy Rage which enable you to make an attack roll. None of these is the Attack action.

Attack action =/= attack rolls. And the Attack action doesn't have a monopoly on attack rolls. So you don't need to take the Attack action to make an attack roll.

Use an Object Action (PHB 193): "When an object requires your action for its use, you take the Use an Object action."

If that object's use happens to involve an attack roll, it is still the Use an Object action.

By this logic, using a sword to stab someone also falls under "Use an object" action instead of Attack action. After all, you're using an action to use an object. It's just that the use involves attack roll.

[LeonBH]

By this logic, using a sword to stab someone also falls under "Use an object" action instead of Attack action. After all, you're using an action to use an object. It's just that the use involves attack roll.

No, the sword is listed under the Weapons table and those have defined rules when used with the Attack action.

The Alchemist Fire is listed under the Adventuring Gear table and has defined rules when used with the Use an Object action.

EDIT: In any case, your objection doesn't disprove the ability of Fast Hands, and doesn't override the Use an Object action's clause.

PHB 193: "When an object requires your action for its use, you take the Use an Object action"

PHB 148: "As an action, you can throw this flask up to 20 feet, shattering it on impact."

[JackPhoenix]

No, the sword is listed under the Weapons table and those have defined rules when used with the Attack action.

The Alchemist Fire is listed under the Adventuring Gear table and has defined rules when used with the Use an Object action.

Improvised weapons don't have listing under the Weapons table (for obvious reasons), but they *do* fall under the Weapons section of the PHB equipment chapter. Alchemical weapons are clearly stated as improvised weapons when thrown.

Edit in response to edit:
PHB 193: "When an object requires your action for its use, you take the Use an Object action"

PHB 148: "As an action, you can throw this flask up to 20 feet, shattering it on impact."

Also PHB, but 149-151 (split to two pages): "Make a ranged attack against a creature or object, treating the alchemist's fire as an improvised weapon."

[LeonBH]

Improvised weapons don't have listing under the Weapons table (for obvious reasons), but they *do* fall under the Weapons section of the PHB equipment chapter. Alchemical weapons are clearly stated as improvised weapons when thrown.

Also PHB, but 149-151 (split to two pages): "Make a ranged attack against a creature or object, treating the alchemist's fire as an improvised weapon."

Improvised weapons do not need the Attack action to be used. You can make an attack roll with an improvised weapon using your reaction during an opportunity attack, or with the Cast a Spell action using GFB, or with a bonus action using Frenzy Rage or War Priest.

Just because Alchemist's Fire is treated as an improvised weapon doesn't mean it needs the Attack action to be used.

It is listed under Adventuring Gear, and it is an object that requires an action to use. It thus falls under the umbrella of Use an Object, and Use an Object is not forbidden from making attack rolls, because you don't have to take the Attack action to make an attack roll.

EDIT: Moreover, if it used the Attack action, you would be able to use it with Extra Attack. But using Alchemist's Fire takes up your entire action, meaning it cannot be used with Extra Attack. This means it is not using the Attack action.

[Dudewithknives]

Ok, this came up in another thread discussing rogue archetypes, but I thought it an interesting enough tangent to merit it's own discussion.

A thief's level 3 feature grants the ability to use an object as a bonus action. By any reasonable interpretation that would include almost all the items listed in the phb adventuring gear section, specifically things like caltrops, ball bearings, and hunters traps. I believe it is pretty reasonable to include acid flasks, alchemist fire, and holy water under this as well as they use very similar wording. The only difference is that using them requires an attack as a ranged improvised weapon.

Where it gets interesting is that a thief can also use sneak attack with these items. Since they are specifically stated to be a ranged weapon, they meet the requirement for sneak attack. My personal reading is that the damage listed replaces the normal 1d4 + stat for an improvised weapon, but I can see a reasonable interpretation to add that damage as well.

So in the most generous reading, a thief can make a bonus action attack with an acid flask for 1d4 + 2d6 + dex + sneak attack as a measly 25 gold per shot. Less if he has proficiency with alchemy kits and makes his own. And it would be possible to use with most other ways that rogues can get to boost damage even higher.

There are some issues with this approach, the most obvious being the lack of proficiency. The only RAW way to gain proficiency with improvised weapons is through the tavern brawler feat. (Weapon master and Kensei may also allow this, but that is very much a GM ruling.) It is a little worse on action economy than crossbow expertise as it needs to use your object interaction and effectively disarms you after each use. It is also probably incompatible with extra attack, as it expressly states "as an action", but a multiclass rogue would be able to throw a potion as a bonus action and get off their regular attack with a two handed weapon like a longbow or even a greatsword on a really wierd build.

Has anyone seen this used in practice? Am I just getting a bad read on this and missing something obvious? Should I spring this on an unsuspecting GM for a laugh? Are there better ways to make this even more abusive?

Ok, there is a lot wrong in this.

1. Acid/holy water/alchmist fire are not ranged weapons, you can not sneak attack with them. You make a ranged attack with them, as improvised weapons. That does not make them ranged weapons. This is the same reason that a Rogue can not sneak attack with a spear. Thrown is not the same as ranged weapon.

2. There is no such thing as a "ranged improvised weapon" there is only "improvised weapon" and "Improvised thrown weapon" A rogue can never sneak attack with an improvised weapon, because none of them have the finesse property and none are considered ranged weapons.

3. Making an attack is not "using an object" you can't do it with fast hands anyway. You could probably get away with throwing them on the floor or a wall/door but you definitely can't attack with one.

[Dudewithknives]

Crawford clarified somewhere that it was allowed. Someone can find the link for me if they feel like it.

Yes, he did clarify that and he was 100% wrong.

Fast hands let's you use an object, or interact with an object.

Donning a shield is neither of those.
Nowhere does it say, "as an action you may don a shield", it only says that the time it takes to don one is 1 action.

[LeonBH]

3. Making an attack is not "using an object" you can't do it with fast hands anyway. You could probably get away with throwing them on the floor or a wall/door but you definitely can't attack with one.

There's no rule forbidding this.

EDIT: And more importantly, there are rules supporting it.

[Dudewithknives]

There's no rule forbidding this.

Yes there is, it is using the attack action, it says right there on the item,
"In either case, make a ranged attack against a creature or object, treating the acid as an improvised weapon. On a hit, the target takes 2d6 acid damage"

The point of it saying that "as an action" is to point out it takes the entire action to do, and thus can't be used as part of multiple attacks.

If you are making an attack roll, you are not "using an object" you are making an attack.

Using an object is dropping caltrops, or oil, drawing a weapon, using a healers kit, ect. all of which are not making attack rolls.

[LeonBH]

If you are making an attack roll, you are not "using an object" you are making an attack.

I'd like to highlight this.

Making an attack is not the same as using the Attack action. You can make an attack with the Cast A Spell action, with a reaction during an opportunity attack, and a bonus action using Frenzy Rage or War Priest.

Just because you made an attack does not mean you took the Attack action.

Use an Object does not forbid making an attack as part of its action. All it is, is the use of an object which specifies it requires 1 action to use.

[ChampionWiggles]

Leon's got the right of it here. You can make an attack without taking the attack action, otherwise TWF would not exist and people wouldn't get their bonus action attack with a loaded hand crossbow from the Crossbow Expert feat...or get the "use a bonus action to make one melee weapon attack" after using Dash action from Charger feat. It goes back to "If a specific rule contradicts a general rule, the specific rule wins".

And honestly, using things like Alchemists's Fire/Acid/Holy Water as bonus action isn't going to break the game, especially since using magic items isn't covered under Fast Hands. So taking away that from Fast Hands turns the subclass feature from "Not that great" into "Mostly useless". Those items cost a good amount of GP for a thief to have to stock up on to "abuse" anyways.

[mephnick]

Yes, he did clarify that and he was 100% wrong..

*shrug* I chose to agree so that Fast Hands had some use, but I can see your point.

[Quoz]

Well, I wanted to get an understanding of the rules better and I am definitely seeing where the points of debate lay. I knew this was combining s few edge cases, so ultimately it will come down to GM interpretation.

1. Does a "splash weapon" fall under the thief's ability to use an object with cunning action? It is listed as adventuring gear, with mostly similar wording to other items that clearly do use that heading. The difference and debate is on needing an attack roll, which would lean toward the attack action instead. Since it is worded to preclude extra attack, without using all the extra explanation used for a net which has the "only once per attack" restriction, I lean toward this working under Use an Object. Your GM may disagree.

2. Can a rogue sneak attack with an acid flask? The description of the item says to make a ranged attack, treating as an improvised weapon. Strict RAW, an improvised weapon is not a ranged weapon and therefore cannot sneak attack. RAI, I believe an improvised weapon would get the logical attributes as though it were a weapon: a broken bottle could be finesse, a grand piano would probably be two handed and heavy, a length of chain would have reach, ect. As the rules for using this are a bit more defined (limited range, must make as a ranged attack, defined damage) I am going to lean towards yes. For me, the deciding factor is this: If I try to splash someone with a liquid, do I use strength or dex? The only stat that makes any sense is dexterity, so I think I would rule in favor of ranged weapon. Again, your table may rule differently.

3. Does the attack do the normal d4+mod for an improvised weapon? Pretty sure this is a hard no. I don't think anyone here argued for it, and I'd lean hard to the item replaces the standard improvised weapon damage, not adds to it. Especially since you have the option of just splashing the liquid without throwing the vial.

Thanks for all the fine points brought up during the debate. I think I have a better understanding of several aspects on action economy and rules triggers. If anybody reading this wants to try using a gnomish super soaker loaded with holy water in an undead campaign, just make sure you talk it over with the GM first.

[Drayrs]

For true abuse, use Catapult as a Level X spell. Get rekt.