Swift Hunter, Domains, and Movement Speed Help

[Master O'Laughs]

In 3.5 how important is movement speed to a ranged character?

I am thinking of making one for a new campaign where we are starting at level 10.

The starting build I am thinking of is:
Scout 4/ Cloistered Cleric 1/Ranger 5

Our starting attributes (custom array) is 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, 13
With an 18 Dex, am I better off being and elf to make it 20, 22 after improvements?

The domains I would pick would be Elf domain (free point blank shot), Travel devotion, Knowledge Devotion

If I went Human (extra feat and skill point), I would pick from either Celerity or Time, in addition to the 2 devotion feats.

Is one necessarily better than the others? If Human, I am thinking of taking the feat which lets them spend only 1 skill point on cross-class skills, allowing myself to be a skill monkey of sorts.

Thanks for any input!

[Darrin]

In 3.5 how important is movement speed to a ranged character?


For a Swift Hunter, you need to be able to move at least 10' and make multiple attacks in the same round. If you have the Improved Skirmish feat, then you need to be able to move at least 20' and make multiple attacks in the same round.

So... overall, a high movement speed isn't all that important, so long as you can activate your skirmish damage.



The starting build I am thinking of is:
Scout 4/ Cloistered Cleric 1/Ranger 5

Our starting attributes (custom array) is 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, 13
With an 18 Dex, am I better off being and elf to make it 20, 22 after improvements?


That's a solid build. However, the exact order you take the levels can be pretty important, as you want to get Manyshot as quickly as possible (it's a prereq for Greater Manyshot or Improved Rapid Shot), and still get Swift Hunter around ECL 6. Actually, I would suggest Scout 3/Ranger 6/Cleric 1. This gets Manyshot at 9th, where you can immediately pick up Greater Manyshot or Improved Rapid Shot. Your next level would be Scout 4, where you can pick up Improved Skirmish as your bonus feat.



The domains I would pick would be Elf domain (free point blank shot), Travel devotion, Knowledge Devotion


Sehanine Moonbow is probably your best pick for elven deities. According to the LG Deities 2.0, her domains are: Chaos, Dream, Good, Knowledge, Oracle, Repose, Travel, and Trickery. Technically, she should also have the Elf domain, but I think that domain only exists in the Forgotten Realms.



If I went Human (extra feat and skill point), I would pick from either Celerity or Time, in addition to the 2 devotion feats.


Celerity... well, as I mentioned earlier, if you can already move 20', then an extra 10' of movement may not be helpful. However, you never know what the terrain will be like, so you may have to move through difficult terrain, tumble, avoid obstacles/enemies, etc., and that may burn up movement. Time domain gets you Improved Initiative, which is a good feat to have, but not absolutely essential to a Swift Hunter.

As far as deities with the Travel domain go, I like the dragon deity Io (Races of the Dragon p. 155). Her domains are Dragon, Knowledge, Magic, Strength, Travel, Wealth, and Spell. Out of those domains, I like taking Magic (to activate Sor/Wiz wands without a UMD check) and Strength (enlarge person is a fantastic buff). Aasterinian also has Travel, along with Luck (reroll!), Trickery (duplicate abuse!), Charm, Illusion, and Trade.

Another option is to worship an entire pantheon, which may allow a wider choice on your third domain. For example, worshipping the Asgardian pantheon (Deities & Demigods p. 167) allows you to pick Travel, Knowledge, and the War domain for Weapon Focus: Composite Longbow. The downside there is by RAW, none of the Norse gods have any domains that appeared after Deities & Demigods was printed, so no Celerity or Time domain without a handwave from the DM. But you do get to say, "By Odin's Beard!" a lot, which is fun!



Is one necessarily better than the others?


One race isn't necessarily better than the other. Humans get a bonus feat, but usually can't pick up Point Blank Shot from the Elf domain. Elves don't get the bonus feat, but they do get Point Blank Shot from Sehanine Moonbow essentially as a bonus feat. So other than the human's extra skill points, it's a bit of a wash. However, if your group plays with multiclass XP penalties, then the human might be a better pick for a typical Swift Hunter build (Scout 4/Ranger 16) because they can treat Ranger as a favored class. On the Elf side, wood elves have Ranger as a favored class. The fly in the ointment there is the Cleric dip, which would incur a multiclass XP penalty for both a human and a wood elf.



If Human, I am thinking of taking the feat which lets them spend only 1 skill point on cross-class skills, allowing myself to be a skill monkey of sorts.


Able Learner... I'm not sure I would recommend that. Swift Hunter builds tend to be *really* tight on feats. If Flaws are available, then yes, go ahead and take it. However, Scouts and Rangers get a lot of skill points on a very diverse list, so unless you're trying to optimize something non-Ranger-ish in particular (such as Use Magic Device), I'd skip it.

Some other things to consider... do you want Ranger spells? If not, then Champion of the Wild can get you Manyshot at Ranger 4, although if you do that you kinda get screwed on your combat style at Ranger 6. However, if you stop at Ranger 5, you can crank up your skirmish damage to 10d6 with Dragon Devotee 4/Unseen Seer 4/Highland Stalker 2.

I like my Swift Hunters to take Dragonborn of Bahamut sometime after Ranger 3. If you're human, you can keep your human bonus feat by dropping another feat instead, such as... oh look, Endurance! Might as well be useful for something! In addition, you can swap one of your existing feats for Dragon Tail or Dragon Wings. If you take Dragon Tail, you can add Prehensile Tail for a third hand. If you take Dragon Wings, you can take the Heart aspect for the breath weapon and pick up Improved Dragon Wings later for a full fly speed. Archery + Flight = Death From Above.

Get your hands on an elvencraft longbow (300 GP, Races of the Wild) so it counts as a quarterstaff, and add a wand chamber to each end (100 GP, Dungeonscape). Put a wand of instant of power (Forge of War) in one end and something like guided shot (Spell Compendium) in the other.

There are several Ranger ACFs to consider. Distracting Attack (PHBII) is generally regarded as much more useful than the Ranger's bloodsmea-- I mean, animal companion. If you really want an animal companion, the Urban Companion ACF (from the Cityscape Web Enhancement (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a)) is a little sturdier, can act independently without teaching it tricks, and has all of your skill ranks as a familiar. If you have room for it, the Wild Cohort (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) feat scales by character level rather than 1/2 ranger level. I prefer the Spiritual Connection ACF (Complete Champion) to Wild Apathy. You'll also probably want to use the Skilled City-Dweller ACF (also from the Cityscape Web Enhancement (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a)) to swap your Ride skill for Tumble.

[Master O'Laughs]

For a Swift Hunter, you need to be able to move at least 10' and make multiple attacks in the same round. If you have the Improved Skirmish feat, then you need to be able to move at least 20' and make multiple attacks in the same round.

So... overall, a high movement speed isn't all that important, so long as you can activate your skirmish damage.



That's a solid build. However, the exact order you take the levels can be pretty important, as you want to get Manyshot as quickly as possible (it's a prereq for Greater Manyshot or Improved Rapid Shot), and still get Swift Hunter around ECL 6. Actually, I would suggest Scout 3/Ranger 6/Cleric 1. This gets Manyshot at 9th, where you can immediately pick up Greater Manyshot or Improved Rapid Shot. Your next level would be Scout 4, where you can pick up Improved Skirmish as your bonus feat.



Sehanine Moonbow is probably your best pick for elven deities. According to the LG Deities 2.0, her domains are: Chaos, Dream, Good, Knowledge, Oracle, Repose, Travel, and Trickery. Technically, she should also have the Elf domain, but I think that domain only exists in the Forgotten Realms.



Celerity... well, as I mentioned earlier, if you can already move 20', then an extra 10' of movement may not be helpful. However, you never know what the terrain will be like, so you may have to move through difficult terrain, tumble, avoid obstacles/enemies, etc., and that may burn up movement. Time domain gets you Improved Initiative, which is a good feat to have, but not absolutely essential to a Swift Hunter.

As far as deities with the Travel domain go, I like the dragon deity Io (Races of the Dragon p. 155). Her domains are Dragon, Knowledge, Magic, Strength, Travel, Wealth, and Spell. Out of those domains, I like taking Magic (to activate Sor/Wiz wands without a UMD check) and Strength (enlarge person is a fantastic buff). Aasterinian also has Travel, along with Luck (reroll!), Trickery (duplicate abuse!), Charm, Illusion, and Trade.

Another option is to worship an entire pantheon, which may allow a wider choice on your third domain. For example, worshipping the Asgardian pantheon (Deities & Demigods p. 167) allows you to pick Travel, Knowledge, and the War domain for Weapon Focus: Composite Longbow. The downside there is by RAW, none of the Norse gods have any domains that appeared after Deities & Demigods was printed, so no Celerity or Time domain without a handwave from the DM. But you do get to say, "By Odin's Beard!" a lot, which is fun!



One race isn't necessarily better than the other. Humans get a bonus feat, but usually can't pick up Point Blank Shot from the Elf domain. Elves don't get the bonus feat, but they do get Point Blank Shot from Sehanine Moonbow essentially as a bonus feat. So other than the human's extra skill points, it's a bit of a wash. However, if your group plays with multiclass XP penalties, then the human might be a better pick for a typical Swift Hunter build (Scout 4/Ranger 16) because they can treat Ranger as a favored class. On the Elf side, wood elves have Ranger as a favored class. The fly in the ointment there is the Cleric dip, which would incur a multiclass XP penalty for both a human and a wood elf.



Able Learner... I'm not sure I would recommend that. Swift Hunter builds tend to be *really* tight on feats. If Flaws are available, then yes, go ahead and take it. However, Scouts and Rangers get a lot of skill points on a very diverse list, so unless you're trying to optimize something non-Ranger-ish in particular (such as Use Magic Device), I'd skip it.

Some other things to consider... do you want Ranger spells? If not, then Champion of the Wild can get you Manyshot at Ranger 4, although if you do that you kinda get screwed on your combat style at Ranger 6. However, if you stop at Ranger 5, you can crank up your skirmish damage to 10d6 with Dragon Devotee 4/Unseen Seer 4/Highland Stalker 2.

I like my Swift Hunters to take Dragonborn of Bahamut sometime after Ranger 3. If you're human, you can keep your human bonus feat by dropping another feat instead, such as... oh look, Endurance! Might as well be useful for something! In addition, you can swap one of your existing feats for Dragon Tail or Dragon Wings. If you take Dragon Tail, you can add Prehensile Tail for a third hand. If you take Dragon Wings, you can take the Heart aspect for the breath weapon and pick up Improved Dragon Wings later for a full fly speed. Archery + Flight = Death From Above.

Get your hands on an elvencraft longbow (300 GP, Races of the Wild) so it counts as a quarterstaff, and add a wand chamber to each end (100 GP, Dungeonscape). Put a wand of instant of power (Forge of War) in one end and something like guided shot (Spell Compendium) in the other.

There are several Ranger ACFs to consider. Distracting Attack (PHBII) is generally regarded as much more useful than the Ranger's bloodsmea-- I mean, animal companion. If you really want an animal companion, the Urban Companion ACF (from the Cityscape Web Enhancement (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a)) is a little sturdier, can act independently without teaching it tricks, and has all of your skill ranks as a familiar. If you have room for it, the Wild Cohort (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) feat scales by character level rather than 1/2 ranger level. I prefer the Spiritual Connection ACF (Complete Champion) to Wild Apathy. You'll also probably want to use the Skilled City-Dweller ACF (also from the Cityscape Web Enhancement (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a)) to swap your Ride skill for Tumble.

Wow, a lot of good input here. We do not use multi class penalties thankfully. Item wise, we are limited to the PHB/DMG and then everything else is approved on a case by case basis.

I was thinking Able Learner so I would have a half decent disable device skill since I would most likely be the trap guy. I was planning on however many skills I get per level, making at least 1/2 of them maxed and then split the rest between 2 skills so I can cover more areas where the party may be weak.

Is the dragon wings a feat? Also, I know the Scout will give me +10 movement speed, so if something halves my speed I could still move 20' for improved skirmish. I know the DM has allowed flaws before so I will take a look at which one seems best so I can pick up Able learner if I go Human.

Any specific bow enchantments to look at? I saw in the handbook that Seeking is good in case a creature has total concealment. I have also heard Splitting is very good (subject to DM Approval), but may be too expensive for the time being. I also like bane, but I saw the ranger gets an awesome spell to make a super bane bow when I get 4th level spells and would feel like a waste then.

The table rule is you cannot spend more than 1/2 your gold on a single item. I was thinking of getting a +1 Mithral Chain shirt with potentially the 2 sneaky enchantments on it so my foot and back slot are free for a cloak of resistance and either spider climb slippers or boots of striding and springing.

EDIT: Corrected false information about swift hunter giving movement speed where it was actually the Scout class itself.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Swift Hunter doesn't boost your movement speed, but Darrin is correct-- as long as you can move (ideally) 20ft and still full attack, overall movement speed is irrelevant.

In contrast to his advice, I would steer clear of Greater Manyshot. It'll tank your to-hit, which isn't likely to be that high to begin with, and it's ultimately not that many shots with your middling BAB. Travel Devotion is better overall; it's not hard to get a few extra Turn attempts to power it enough to use it all day long.

I would go Human over the Elf Domain, though, if for no other reason than that you probably want to get your basic archery feats in ASAP, which is a lot easier at 1st (especially with flaws).

If you want more suggestions, I've got a whole Scout handbook over here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?473666-New-Scout-Handbook).

[Master O'Laughs]

Swift Hunter doesn't boost your movement speed, but Darrin is correct-- as long as you can move (ideally) 20ft and still full attack, overall movement speed is irrelevant.

In contrast to his advice, I would steer clear of Greater Manyshot. It'll tank your to-hit, which isn't likely to be that high to begin with, and it's ultimately not that many shots with your middling BAB. Travel Devotion is better overall; it's not hard to get a few extra Turn attempts to power it enough to use it all day long.

I would go Human over the Elf Domain, though, if for no other reason than that you probably want to get your basic archery feats in ASAP, which is a lot easier at 1st (especially with flaws).

If you want more suggestions, I've got a whole Scout handbook over here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?473666-New-Scout-Handbook).

My fault, I meant the Scout class gives +10 enhancement bonus at lvl 3 I think. I was planning on going Improved Rapid shot over Many shot due to there being a sorcerer in the party who casts Haste a lot. If I go human, would goggles of night be worth picking up so I can see without light?

[Darrin]

Wow, a lot of good input here. We do not use multi class penalties thankfully. Item wise, we are limited to the PHB/DMG and then everything else is approved on a case by case basis.


Making Archery work somewhat decently in 3.5 is *REALLY* dependent on how you spend your GPs. Not having access to the Splitting property (Champions of Ruin) or Hank's Energy Bow (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a) can really hork up your effectiveness.



I was thinking Able Learner so I would have a half decent disable device skill since I would most likely be the trap guy.


You can take the Trap Expert ACF (Dungeonscape) to add Trapfinding and Disable Device as a class skill to Ranger. You lose the Track feat, but it's unlikely to tell you anything useful anyway.



Is the dragon wings a feat?


Yes. There are two ways to gain a Fly speed by going through the Ritual of Rebirth to become a Dragonborn of Bahamut. The first is to choose the "Wings" aspect, which gives you a 30' fly speed at 6 HD (or your 6th character level). However, this means you can't take the "Heart" aspect (a breath weapon) or the "Mind" aspect (darkvision/blindsense). If you want the breath weapon, you can also trade one of your existing feats for a "1st-level only" feat that requires the dragonblood subtype, as per the rule at the bottom of Races of the Dragon p. 10. There are only two such feats, both of them in Races of the Dragon. Dragon Wings gives you a +10 bonus on Jump checks and a 30' glide speed, and allows you to take the Improved Dragon Wings feat later for a true 30' fly speed.



Also, I know the Scout will give me +10 movement speed, so if something halves my speed I could still move 20' for improved skirmish. I know the DM has allowed flaws before so I will take a look at which one seems best so I can pick up Able learner if I go Human.


If you need +10' to your movement speed, there are magic items you can buy that can do that. An unlimited command-word item of longstrider, for example, has a suggested cost of 1800 GP (although snowshoes from the Spell Compendium would be better... same +10' bonus and you can ignore Balance checks on ice/snow).



Any specific bow enchantments to look at? I saw in the handbook that Seeking is good in case a creature has total concealment. I have also heard Splitting is very good (subject to DM Approval), but may be too expensive for the time being. I also like bane, but I saw the ranger gets an awesome spell to make a super bane bow when I get 4th level spells and would feel like a waste then.


If you have access to the Spell Compendium, then you can negate cover/concealment with a wand of guided shot. There are also feats that negate concealment, such as Improved Precise Shot. What an archer needs more than anything is *bonus damage*, however he can possibly get it. This means your first bow enhancements should probably be Corrosive, Shock, Frost, and Flaming, in that order. Corrosive is in the MIC, so presumably you'd have to ask the DM if its available, but [acid] is the least-common resistance/immunity encountered in the Monster Manuals, followed by [electricity], [cold], and [fire]. You want enhancements that deal bonus damage on the widest range of enemies, so avoid things that only affect a certain type of creature, such as Bane, unless your DM is really gonzo about a particular creature type. If you know for a fact that the PCs will be good and going up against primarily evil enemies, then Holy might be worth it, but I'd rather have the 2d6 energy damage on every hit than 2d6 that only works on a subset of enemies. Likewise, avoid enhancements that trigger on a crit, because that just doesn't happen often enough to justify the cost.



The table rule is you cannot spend more than 1/2 your gold on a single item. I was thinking of getting a +1 Mithral Chain shirt with potentially the 2 sneaky enchantments on it so my foot and back slot are free for a cloak of resistance and either spider climb slippers or boots of striding and springing.


Darkleaf Breastplate +1 is a little more expensive than the mithral chain shirt (+2,400 GP for masterwork darkleaf vs. +1,000 GP for light mithral armor), but has +1 higher AC. However, darkleaf isn't in the DMG, it's in the Arms & Equipment Guide (and also the Eberron Campaign Sourcebook). I would skip the sneaky enhancements entirely, as they are horribly overpriced. A skill bonus should cost (bonus ^ 2) x 100 GP, so a +5 bonus should cost 2,500 GP, and a +15 bonus should cost 22,500 GP. If you really want the Hide/Move Silently bonuses, ask your DM if you can use the Magic Item Compendium rules to add those to an existing item, such as Boots of Striding and Springing.



In contrast to his advice, I would steer clear of Greater Manyshot. It'll tank your to-hit, which isn't likely to be that high to begin with, and it's ultimately not that many shots with your middling BAB. Travel Devotion is better overall; it's not hard to get a few extra Turn attempts to power it enough to use it all day long.


Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest Greater Manyshot on a build using Travel Devotion for move + full attack. However, it's still a prereq for Improved Rapid Shot (this annoys me to no end), which is a pretty nifty feat to pick up for a Travel Devotion + Rapid Shot build.

[Master O'Laughs]

Making Archery work somewhat decently in 3.5 is *REALLY* dependent on how you spend your GPs. Not having access to the Splitting property (Champions of Ruin) or Hank's Energy Bow (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a) can really hork up your effectiveness.



You can take the Trap Expert ACF (Dungeonscape) to add Trapfinding and Disable Device as a class skill to Ranger. You lose the Track feat, but it's unlikely to tell you anything useful anyway.



Yes. There are two ways to gain a Fly speed by going through the Ritual of Rebirth to become a Dragonborn of Bahamut. The first is to choose the "Wings" aspect, which gives you a 30' fly speed at 6 HD (or your 6th character level). However, this means you can't take the "Heart" aspect (a breath weapon) or the "Mind" aspect (darkvision/blindsense). If you want the breath weapon, you can also trade one of your existing feats for a "1st-level only" feat that requires the dragonblood subtype, as per the rule at the bottom of Races of the Dragon p. 10. There are only two such feats, both of them in Races of the Dragon. Dragon Wings gives you a +10 bonus on Jump checks and a 30' glide speed, and allows you to take the Improved Dragon Wings feat later for a true 30' fly speed.



If you need +10' to your movement speed, there are magic items you can buy that can do that. An unlimited command-word item of longstrider, for example, has a suggested cost of 1800 GP (although snowshoes from the Spell Compendium would be better... same +10' bonus and you can ignore Balance checks on ice/snow).



If you have access to the Spell Compendium, then you can negate cover/concealment with a wand of guided shot. There are also feats that negate concealment, such as Improved Precise Shot. What an archer needs more than anything is *bonus damage*, however he can possibly get it. This means your first bow enhancements should probably be Corrosive, Shock, Frost, and Flaming, in that order. Corrosive is in the MIC, so presumably you'd have to ask the DM if its available, but [acid] is the least-common resistance/immunity encountered in the Monster Manuals, followed by [electricity], [cold], and [fire]. You want enhancements that deal bonus damage on the widest range of enemies, so avoid things that only affect a certain type of creature, such as Bane, unless your DM is really gonzo about a particular creature type. If you know for a fact that the PCs will be good and going up against primarily evil enemies, then Holy might be worth it, but I'd rather have the 2d6 energy damage on every hit than 2d6 that only works on a subset of enemies. Likewise, avoid enhancements that trigger on a crit, because that just doesn't happen often enough to justify the cost.



Darkleaf Breastplate +1 is a little more expensive than the mithral chain shirt (+2,400 GP for masterwork darkleaf vs. +1,000 GP for light mithral armor), but has +1 higher AC. However, darkleaf isn't in the DMG, it's in the Arms & Equipment Guide (and also the Eberron Campaign Sourcebook). I would skip the sneaky enhancements entirely, as they are horribly overpriced. A skill bonus should cost (bonus ^ 2) x 100 GP, so a +5 bonus should cost 2,500 GP, and a +15 bonus should cost 22,500 GP. If you really want the Hide/Move Silently bonuses, ask your DM if you can use the Magic Item Compendium rules to add those to an existing item, such as Boots of Striding and Springing.



Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest Greater Manyshot on a build using Travel Devotion for move + full attack. However, it's still a prereq for Improved Rapid Shot (this annoys me to no end), which is a pretty nifty feat to pick up for a Travel Devotion + Rapid Shot build.

Dude, all you people have been awesome! You have been giving me some great info here! Some of it I will definitely have to get DM approval for but otherwise it is great to pool information in one place.

So if I can get the splitting enhancement, is that better to get on the bow itself then? Or is the elemental damage route better?

Would the precision damage of the skirmish ability would only apply once/split arrow or does it effectively double with the splitting enhancement?

We had a part 1 of the campaign and are currently taking a break so the DM can play instead. When we pick up, we have a sorcerer who is a wondrous items creation guru and has been making custom items for awhile. Based on the custom item creation guidelines, how much would "boots of striding and springing and sneaking" (+10 movement, +5 jump, +5 move silently) cost? Would "boots of Striding and Sneaking" (+10 Movement, +5 Move Silently) cost 5500 gold?

Also, it had been stated the initial theme at least of the second campaign would be flying around on an air ship demon hunting, so I guess a Bane (chaotic or evil outsiders) would not be the worst idea.

[Darrin]

So if I can get the splitting enhancement, is that better to get on the bow itself then? Or is the elemental damage route better?


It depends on what kind of funds you have available. If you can afford the +4 enhancement on a longbow to start with, then it might be better to get that out of the way first, so you don't have to beg your DM for it later. Adding Corrosion, Shock, Frost, and Flaming to a weapon later is probably going to be easier than trying to add Splitting later. If you can only afford a +2 or +3 longbow to start with, then it might be better to start with Corrosive and Shock first, and then save up for Splitting.



Would the precision damage of the skirmish ability would only apply once/split arrow or does it effectively double with the splitting enhancement?


So long as you're using a full-round action to attack, you get full skirmish on each arrow, including the "split" duplicates. (Greater Manyshot explicitly gets precision damage on each arrow even though it doesn't use a standard action.)



We had a part 1 of the campaign and are currently taking a break so the DM can play instead. When we pick up, we have a sorcerer who is a wondrous items creation guru and has been making custom items for awhile. Based on the custom item creation guidelines, how much would "boots of striding and springing and sneaking" (+10 movement, +5 jump, +5 move silently) cost? Would "boots of Striding and Sneaking" (+10 Movement, +5 Move Silently) cost 5500 gold?


Continuous longstrider (or snowshoes) should cost 1 (spell level) x 1 (caster level) x 2000 (continuous item) = 2000 GP. On continuous, there's also usually a multiplier based on the duration, but the duration for longstrider is expressed in hours rather than rounds/minutes/10 minutes, so there's no additional multiplier. So the suggested guidelines for boots of longstrider with +5 jump and +5 move silently would be: 2000 + 2500 + 2500 = 7000 GP.

Remember, these are guidelines, and the DM has final say on the actual cost, as they will know best if allowing such an item into the campaign will create balance issues. However, these are very basic buff abilities, so I don't see why they would be a problem.



Also, it had been stated the initial theme at least of the second campaign would be flying around on an air ship demon hunting, so I guess a Bane (chaotic or evil outsiders) would not be the worst idea.

It's not quite an apples-to-apples comparison, but in order for Bane to be better than, say, Corrosion, then over 50% of all the enemies you ever attack for the lifetime of that weapon would have to be evil outsiders (better category than chaotic outsiders, as it covers both demons *and* devils). Odds are that your DM is not going to send that many demons/devils against you, unless he has explicitly told you, "My campaign world is called 'Evil Demons and Devils Invade the World and Turn Everyone and Everything Into Evil Demons and Devils.'"

[Master O'Laughs]

It's not quite an apples-to-apples comparison, but in order for Bane to be better than, say, Corrosion, then over 50% of all the enemies you ever attack for the lifetime of that weapon would have to be evil outsiders (better category than chaotic outsiders, as it covers both demons *and* devils). Odds are that your DM is not going to send that many demons/devils against you, unless he has explicitly told you, "My campaign world is called 'Evil Demons and Devils Invade the World and Turn Everyone and Everything Into Evil Demons and Devils.'"

Well, funny thing you should mention that... It has been hinted that our flying ship is powered by "souls" but demons can fill that void if need be and the great host Orcus brought over has dispersed and we would be hunting them down to make the land safe once more. I do agree that not all bad guys would necessarily be demons though.

On the off chance I am wrong and everyone starts at lvl 11, I will get splitting approved then, if it not then I will have to go the corrosive/shock route or Hanks Bow (if approved).

[Master O'Laughs]

Feats I get from Ranger:

Track
Rapid Shot
Endurance
Many Shot
Improved Precise Shot (Eventually)

Feats I get from Cloistered Cleric:

Travel Devotion
Knowledge Devotion
(possibly Improved Initiative)

Feats I need to be effective:

Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Swift Hunter
Improved Skirmish

Feats which are nice to have:
Able Learner
Dodge
Mobility
Wild Cohort

Possible Feat Progression:
Lvl 1: Point Blank Shot
Human: Able Learner
Flaw (possible): Precise Shot
Lvl 3: Dodge
Ranger 1: Track
Ranger 2: Rapid Shot
Lvl 6: Swift Hunter
Ranger 3: Endurance
Lvl 9: Mobility
Cleric: Travel Devotion, Knowledge Devotion, Improved Iniative
Scout 4 (Lvl 11): Improved Skirmish

How does that look?

[Darrin]

Dodge
Mobility


Why do you think these would be nice to have? These are widely regarded as two of the worst "feat taxes". If you want to improve your AC, there are better feats than Dodge (Shape Soulmeld: Wormtail Belt, for example), but that is not something I would prioritize on a Swift Hunter build. If you *had* to take Dodge as a prereq for something, then you're much better off taking Expeditious Dodge (Races of the Wild) instead, which synergizes better with your combat strategy. Mobility can either be purchased as an armor enhancement or ignored entirely once you can reliably hit a DC 15 Tumble check.




Possible Feat Progression:
Lvl 1: Point Blank Shot
Human: Able Learner
Flaw (possible): Precise Shot
Lvl 3: Dodge
Ranger 1: Track
Ranger 2: Rapid Shot
Lvl 6: Swift Hunter
Ranger 3: Endurance
Lvl 9: Mobility
Cleric: Travel Devotion, Knowledge Devotion, Improved Iniative
Scout 4 (Lvl 11): Improved Skirmish


If you're starting with Scout 3/Ranger 6, then you can take Improved Rapid Shot at 9th, or slot in Woodland Archer there. If I can convince you to ditch Dodge and Mobility, then you can take Precise Shot at 3rd, or put Wild Cohort there.

As far as Flaws go... Noncombatant is tempting as you're primarily an archer, but the -2 penalty on melee attacks worries me a bit. Scout and Ranger both have good Ref saves and you'll likely have a high Dex, which would make me inclined to consider Poor Reflexes, but Evasion doesn't come until much later... around ECL 14. Still, if you're going to take a penalty somewhere, Ref saves is where you're least likely to notice it.

[Master O'Laughs]

Why do you think these would be nice to have? These are widely regarded as two of the worst "feat taxes". If you want to improve your AC, there are better feats than Dodge (Shape Soulmeld: Wormtail Belt, for example), but that is not something I would prioritize on a Swift Hunter build. If you *had* to take Dodge as a prereq for something, then you're much better off taking Expeditious Dodge (Races of the Wild) instead, which synergizes better with your combat strategy. Mobility can either be purchased as an armor enhancement or ignored entirely once you can reliably hit a DC 15 Tumble check.




If you're starting with Scout 3/Ranger 6, then you can take Improved Rapid Shot at 9th, or slot in Woodland Archer there. If I can convince you to ditch Dodge and Mobility, then you can take Precise Shot at 3rd, or put Wild Cohort there.

As far as Flaws go... Noncombatant is tempting as you're primarily an archer, but the -2 penalty on melee attacks worries me a bit. Scout and Ranger both have good Ref saves and you'll likely have a high Dex, which would make me inclined to consider Poor Reflexes, but Evasion doesn't come until much later... around ECL 14. Still, if you're going to take a penalty somewhere, Ref saves is where you're least likely to notice it.

I guess mobility looked neat and dodge was a tax for it. But I get the point that with enough tumble it will not matter. I was looking at non-combatant as well. I like it because if I ever get into melee it will actually add a significant disadvantage if I am forced to hit something (I am okay with it).

If Dodge and Mobility are really that bad I would be more than willing to switch out 1 of them for Wild Cohort. I had skipped Improved precise shot because the Swift Hunter Handbook had rated it low but it seems like it is rated a lot higher by most others.

If I slot in wild cohort, then which ACF would I be better off switching out animal companion with, Urban Companion or Distracting attack?

Other ACF questions:
Is Arcane Hunter worth it? I was thinking of Undead and Constructs for my first 2 Favored Enemies with my third being Evil Outsiders at lvl 11 (due to campaign). This way i would probably drop Constructs and keep Undead (there was a nation of vampires) and go Arcanist, Undead, Evil outsiders.

I didn't see any other ACF's worth taking.

[Darrin]

If Dodge and Mobility are really that bad I would be more than willing to switch out 1 of them for Wild Cohort. I had skipped Improved precise shot because the Swift Hunter Handbook had rated it low but it seems like it is rated a lot higher by most others.


Improved Precise Shot is mostly duplicated by a 1st-level ranger spell, guided shot. You eventually get it from your Combat Style at Ranger 11, so there's not much reason to take it earlier.



If I slot in wild cohort, then which ACF would I be better off switching out animal companion with, Urban Companion or Distracting attack?


If there's a rogue or another sneak-attacker in the party, then Distracting Attack is probably best. Actually, you can take advantage of Distracting Attack yourself by casting hunter's eye (Ranger 2, PHBII), although your caster level as Ranger is horked up by... well, being a Ranger.

Urban Companion has a few advantages over an animal companion or Wild Cohort, namely that it gets 75% of your HP and 100% of your skill ranks, so it does continue to scale up even if you stop taking Ranger levels. You mentioned that you wanted to take on the skill monkey role to cover up party deficiencies. Well, an Urban Companion either gives you a second roll on all your skill checks, or a +2 bonus via Aid Another. If you want an Urban Companion *and* a Wild Cohort... well, you could pick an owl or eagle as an Urban Companion for the obscenely high Spot check and use them as a scout/spotter/skill-monkey, and then use the Wild Cohort as a flanker/meatbag. Downside is you have to keep track of two animals, and they may suck up resources such as cure/restoration spells.



Is Arcane Hunter worth it? I was thinking of Undead and Constructs for my first 2 Favored Enemies with my third being Evil Outsiders at lvl 11 (due to campaign). This way i would probably drop Constructs and keep Undead (there was a nation of vampires) and go Arcanist, Undead, Evil outsiders.


Hmm. Well... yes... it's worth it... for Rangers that aren't Swift Hunters. For Swift Hunters, you *NEED* to take Undead and Constructs ASAP because Swift Hunter allows you to deal precision damage to those creature types even though they are normally immune. The different types of undead are so numerous that you will likely be running into them throughout your career. Constructs are also very common. I usually recommend taking Elementals as favored enemies after that, but you don't run into them very often. But yeah... the problem with arcanists is although you run into them fairly often throughout your career, they are usually not immune to precision damage. Being able to apply skirmish damage to undead and constructs is usually much more important that ruining an evil wizard's day.



I didn't see any other ACF's worth taking.

I like Spiritual Connection (Complete Champion) because you usually get much better information out of an animal by speaking to it directly rather than relying on Wild Apathy. It also opens up speaking to plants as a source of information, and you never know when that will shake out a helpful Clue-By-Four from the DM. I've never had Wild Apathy tell me anything about an animal other than it's either hungry or angry, and that's usually pretty obvious to begin with.

[Master O'Laughs]

Improved Precise Shot is mostly duplicated by a 1st-level ranger spell, guided shot. You eventually get it from your Combat Style at Ranger 11, so there's not much reason to take it earlier.

Oh gosh Stupid Brain being fried, I meant Improved Rapid shot not Improved Precise Shot.

Improved precise shot was definitely highly rated. Improved Rapid it rated as sub par due to it only be a -2 penalty.

Thanks for all the input though. It is really helping.

As far as other party members, last where we left off there was a Sorcerer, Barbarian in transition to being a full vampire, a Druid, a Ranger (who's player wants to try something else out), and my cleric (who I wanted to retire due to being tired with the character and it seemed a decent in story place to have him peacefully settle into the background).

There also may be a 6th player joining us but I have no clue. So the current part make up will be a Sorcerer, Barbarian, Druid, and Swift hunter.