Red Wizards of Thay

[CapnZapp]

Do you know of any decent 5E implementation of Red Wizards? I'm looking for something that resembles the power 3E gave them.

I'm mainly concerned about enemy NPCs, so a template is fine. Rules that work for player characters are also welcome, if a secondary concern.

[CapnZapp]

Here's what I've got so far, using an example NPC... Note the four bullet points.

Zagmira is an Abjurer (Volo 209) AC 15 (mage armor) hp 74+30 DC 16
* gains MR (advantage on saves) vs incoming Abjuration spells
* foes save with disadvantage on RW's Abjuration spells
* tattoo (circle magic)
* can cast a spell as a bonus action (4/rest) and then also cast Blade Ward

Here's what all this relies on (behind the scenes, stuff useful mostly as fodder for discussion and as a possible seed for player character compatible abilities):

RED WIZARD TEMPLATE

SPELL POWER: Foes save at disadvantage against spells from the Red Wizard's chosen school of specialization (if any). Example: you save with disadvantage against an Evoker Red Wizard's Fireball.
SPECIALIST DEFENSE: The Red Wizard gains magic resistance against spells of its chosen school of specialisation (if any). Example: an Evoker Red Wizard makes saves against your Fireball with advantage.
CIRCLE TATTOO: You can lead a circle of spellcasters with a circle tattoo. See Circle Magic below.

Circle magic: You and up to seven other spellcasters partake in a ritual that takes one hour to complete. The participant with the most levels in a single spellcasting class becomes the leader. Everyone else spends a spell slot of a spell level of their chosing (that they are normally able to cast). All these spell levels are totaled, and converted into Sorcery points on a 1:1 ratio. These sorcery points are available to the leader for 24 hours or until expended.

So the first two bullet points are the inherent Red Wizardry benefits. The bonus action spell + Blade Ward is a simplified and streamlined expression of Circle Magic, using Sorcery Points to fuel Quicken Spell four times, and also casting Blade Ward.

What do you think? :)

For your convenience, here is what 3rd edition gave Red Wizards. It was quite brutal:
http://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild...alms/red.shtml
http://www.realmshelps.net/magic/circle.shtml

X-posted from
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?609682-Red-Wizards-of-Thay
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?609757-Tomb-of-Annihilation-for-high-level-PCs

[Unoriginal]

Several Red Wizards of Thay appears as NPCs in published books and modules, notably in the recent Tomb of Annihilation.

While far from weak, they don't get special powers.

[the_brazenburn]

Several Red Wizards of Thay appears as NPCs in published books and modules, notably in the recent Tomb of Annihilation.

While far from weak, they don't get special powers.

Also in TFtYP and RoT. Check out Dead in Thay (Yawning Portal) and the Mission to Thay (RoT).

But yeah, no special powers.

[CapnZapp]

they don't get special powers.


no special powers.

Hence this thread :)

[the_brazenburn]

Hence this thread :)

If you must give them a special ability, how about a certain number of spell scrolls implemented into their skin as tattoos? This would allow them to cast spells by tracing the glyphs on their skin, and they wouldn't have to waste a spell slot.

[noob]

As far as I know red wizards of thay in 3.5 were often straight wizards(with often a specialization) and the odd ones mostly took the red mage prc(which was as powerful as it was bland) which required a tattoo that banned an additional school.
One of them was a dagger too.
The main weirdness of red wizards was not class features but that they had a bunch of spells they made themselves(and the fact that there is not two hundred thousand organisations of evil wizards that are at the top of society and enslave people).

[CapnZapp]

Anyone interested in discussing the actual Red Wizard prestige class and how to implement circle magic and RW powers in 5th edition? :smallsmile:

[Unoriginal]

Hence this thread :)

I don't get it. You say you want a decent 5e implementation of the Red Wizards, especially for NPCs, we point you to the 5e implementation, and you go "yes, I know, this is why I made this thread" ?

[CapnZapp]

I don't get it. You say you want a decent 5e implementation of the Red Wizards, especially for NPCs, we point you to the 5e implementation, and you go "yes, I know, this is why I made this thread" ?
I did say, and note the part in bold:


Do you know of any decent 5E implementation of Red Wizards? I'm looking for something that resembles the power 3E gave them.

Maybe I should have said in my first post "I already know the official implementation of Red Wizardry is 'nothing'".

And perhaps also "I didn't start this thread to discuss the mechanics of 'nothing'."

Does that help?

Best Regards,
Zapp

[CapnZapp]

The main weirdness of red wizards was not class features but that they had a bunch of spells they made themselves
Thank you.

Unfortunately, making up (or porting) a bunch of spells would be a time-consuming task.

Besides, I have a hunch that most of them wouldn't give a meaningful impact on actual play anyway. I mean, how many ways do you really need to fireball somebody to death with. (I could be wrong, and you are welcome to point out significantly different or unique RW spells from previous editions).

But mostly I fear that, like in so many other areas, the Faerun splatbooks contain only a huge mass of subpar and complicated spells. And that's not what I'm looking for.

I'm looking to give my players a reason to fear and respect Red Wizards as one of the most notorious arcane organizations on Toril. The 3E prestige class (or rather, the essence of its powers) fits that bill perfectly.

I think it would be worthwhile to import the essence of the prestige class as a quick template to "red wizardify" the NPC stat blocks in MM and Volo. :smile:

[CapnZapp]

Apparently I was in the wrong forum.

Just found this: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?546617-Wizard-Archetype-Red-Wizard-of-Thay

Exactly the kind of discussion I was looking for!

[Boxybrown]

With the introduction of ToA there are several encounters that ecould possibly have pc's working with the RWoT leading to a potentially friendly standing though I use that term loosely,with a lich working under Tam.

Alignment issues not with standing, is there enough raw data in 5e to make thay a viable faction?

[sambojin]

The Loremaster Wizard from the UA material is suitably overpowered for RWoT. The spell damage changing gives them a chance to circumvent resistances, save type changing is as good if not better than disadvantage for saves, the spell boosting with slots gives them even more signature/self made spells or can show tattoo effects, and the lvl14 mini-wish gives you in-game mechanical DM fiat or can be used as their circle magic thingy.

Really OP as a character class, but very versatile and useful in a DM's hands for NPCs, while still being mechanically "fair". Kind of. But think of a spell. You now have the rules to make that spell. If they get cheeky, you can always just sub in the "correct" spell with prodigious memory.

It's probably the most OP thing that has ever come from UA material. But when used with restraint, it can do exactly what you want.

Chuck in the Dragon Mark feat from Eberron UA if you want more flavour for tattoos.

[Mharb]

Red Wizards of Thay are basically Specialist Wizards with a few additional signature abilities: Tattoos and Circle Magic.

There is no simple way to balance a Red Wizard subclass that grants new abilities without taking away some arcane specialization abilities; but that specialization is also a hallmark of the Red Wizards. My suggestion, therefore, is to create a homebrew Red Wizard feat. Since 5E humans are the only race that can get a feat at first level, this fits with the lore in which red wizards are almost always human, without arbitrarily banning other races from learning the secrets of wizard tattoos and circle magic at higher levels.

There are many ways you could design a Red Wizard Feat. If you'd like some inspiration, I've posted the homebrew feat I created for the Tomb of Annihilation campaign that I'm currently running. Modify as you see fit:


Prerequisite: A wizard with arcane specialization in one of the eight schools.

You learn the secrets of Thayan circle magic and how to scribe spells of your chosen school of specialization in your own flesh as tattoos.

Tattoo Focus. The mechanics for acquiring tattoos are the same as acquiring new spells, except that you use your own skin rather than a spell book. Spell tattooed in this way have several advantages:
1. Tattooed spells are always prepared without need for a spell book, but count against the number of spells you can have prepared (thereby reducing the number of spells you can have prepared outside your specialization).
2. Spell tattoos act as spell focus for their spell (i.e. material components not needed unless they have a gp price).
3. You have advantage on saving throws against any spell that has been tattooed on your body.
4. You can use your reaction to automatically maintain concentration on a tattooed spell.
5. When you cast a tattooed spell choose one creature that is a target of the spell. That creature has disadvantage on its first saving throw against your spell.

Circle Magic. After participating in a one hour ritual with other spell casters you can expend one spell slot of any level to grant the Circle Leader a number of sorcery points equal to the level of the spell slot that you expended. The Circle Leader cannot acquire more sorcery points than a sorcerer of the same level (i.e. zero at first level). If you are the Circle Leader, choose two metamagic options from the sorcerer class description at the start of the ritual. You may choose a third metamagic option at 10th level and a fourth option at 17th level. You may use your sorcery points to power these metamagic options or convert them into spell slots as described in the Font of Magic ability of sorcerers. Unlike Font of Magic, this ability does not allow you to regain sorcery points through rest.

[noob]

Thank you.

Unfortunately, making up (or porting) a bunch of spells would be a time-consuming task.

Besides, I have a hunch that most of them wouldn't give a meaningful impact on actual play anyway. I mean, how many ways do you really need to fireball somebody to death with. (I could be wrong, and you are welcome to point out significantly different or unique RW spells from previous editions).

most of them are not about killing.
There was a spell that teleported the opponent randomly, a series of spells that inflicted massive amount of pain supposed to be used to punish slaves with the first of the series buffing the target for basic strength based tasks(while harming them a little bit) and the rest being boring damage and stun spells(yes the rest of that series can be skipped because they are mostly damage spells but they are all meant to punish slaves), a spell that allowed to make a copy of the mind of an individual in a gem(the focus of the spell) that could then be used to make an intelligent magic item(could be rewritten in order to make it be a gem that can be added to a magic item to make it intelligent)
There was probably some more but I forgot them.

[Eldariel]

Circle Magic is their big thing and you can kinda just leech the mechanics from 3e and add them to a spell: the earlier port seems largely fine. They are similar enough. I'd certainly do something like that if I were to run the finale of RoT for example.

[Thunderous Mojo]

I like the idea that the mystical training of a Red Wizard of Thay, grants them a mastery of magic that inflicts Disadvantage on saving throws against spells the Red Wizard casts in their chosen school, and the Red Wizard has Advantage on Saving Throws against spells of their chosen school.

I think that could make for a fun NPC description.

As a DM, I would have Thayan Circle Magic work like the bonus spells/spell slots granted by a Hag's Coven.

Why reinvent the wheel, when you can reskin it?

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Necromancy is appropriate for the Red Wizards, but not for us.