Tribute to Ho Thanh

[D.One]

I’ve always liked the character Ho Thanh, even with the few moments of screen time he had, because of what he representes: a hero, far away from the league of the menaces he faces, but still fighting the good fight, because it’s the right thing to do.

So, as a tribute to him, I’ll try to pin down his stats from the few intel we have, even if we won’t see him again. Anyone who thinks this is a fair debate, feel free to contribute.

I’ll be following the same rules of the Class and Level Geekery thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?545476-Class-and-Level-Geekery-XV-What-s-the-Damage-of-a-Thrown-Pineapple), as I’ve started this discussion there.

Let’s go:

Ho Thanh
Lawful Good, human male, Paladin 4-7 (able to turn undead, couldn’t turn more than one wight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0514.html))
Str, Dex, Int, Wis ~10 (no evidence, race)
Con 3+ (Survived at least one grapple attack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0827.html))
Cha 12-19 (able to use Lay on hands (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0518.html), couldn’t turn more than one wight)
Abilities: Paladin abilities.
Items: Katana, armor.

[D.One]

1) I'm trying to get any hint for his STR, based on the fact that it took one stab from Belkar, one pineapple from Belkar and one Smite Evil to destroy one wight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0515.html).

2) I've observed that he seems to be always using only one attack per round. That would indicate a Paladin level of 5, at most. This seems to be consistent with his battle against Haley when dominated and with his later battle against Redcloak during the destruction of the Resistance, situations in which there would make no sense for him to hold back and do not make a full attack.

3) During the fall of the Resistance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0827.html), we saw Ho Thanh kill one Bearded Devil (?) with only one (not Smite) strike, another stance that could give clues about his STR.

[D.One]

Explaining the reasoning for the CON 3-17:

Until attacked by the osmiun Elemental, Ho Thanh seemed unharmed. Then, the Osmiun elemental grabbed him (attack #1) and, next round, under order from Redcloak, constricted him (attack #2).

Let's analyze that:

Constrict attack says that "a creature with this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, after making a successful grapple check. The amount of damage is given in the creature’s entry". I've researched creatures that have the Constrict special attack, and it's been consistent that the base damage for the attack is the same base damage for the highest base damage attack of the creature (slam, bite, etc...), and it ads 1.5 STR modifier to the damage.

Ok, but... what's the damage for an Osmiun Elemental, something that I believe don't exist in any book? Weel, that's when we must do some strapolation here. Osmiun is one of the densest elements that exist, so it's reasonable to think that an Osmiun elemental should be harder and stronger than a Earth elemental of the same size. But how much stronger?

Fortunately, D&D has a fair point of reference for that, the hardest metal known to medieval fantasy, Adamantine.

The problem is, we don't have Adamantine Elementals.

But we have Adamantine Golens. And Iron Golens. And Stone Golens. With that, we might be able to draw some conclusions:

Iron and Stone Golens are normaly large, while Adamantine ones are normally huge. For the materials' comparison to make sense, we must make them the same size. Fortunately, we can improve the HD of both Stone and Iron Golen to the point they become Huge, and then use the guidelines for improving monsters to find out their new stats.

A Large Stone Golen has a STR of 29 (+9) and a base slam damage of 2d10. A Huge one would have a STR of 37 (+13) and a base slam damage of 4d8.
A Large Iron Golen has a STR of 33 (+11) and a base slam damage of 2d10. A Huge one would have a STR of 41 (+15) and a base slam damage of 4d8.
A Huge Adamantine Golen has a STR of 51 (+20) and a base slam damage of 6d10.

Using Stone as a proxy for earth in the comparison, we see that iron gains +4 STR and no advance in slam damage when compared to stone/earth, while Adamantine gains +10 STR and the equivalent to a 2 size increases upgrade in slam base damage.

If we consider that Osmiun should be as hard and strong as adamantine, which is reasonable, then an Osmiun Elemental should have +14 STR and two size increases upgrade in base slam attack, compared to the size equivalent Earth Elemental.

The Osmiun Elelmental seems to be Large.

A Large Earth Elemental would have a STR of 25 (+7) and a base slam damage of 2d8. Thus, an Osmiun Elemental should have a STR of 39 (+14) and a base slam damage of 3d10.

The constrict damage for the Large Osmiun Elemental, thus, would be 3d10+21.

The minimum damage for that is 24, and the maximum is 51. With two constrict attacks, it could have caused a maximum of 102 points of damage to Ho Thanh.

Ho Thanh has a minimum of 4 Paladin levels, and a maximum of 7.

Note that he had at least 24 hp, since he was still councious and able to talk (even if he had been at 0 hp) after the first constrict attack. Having a minimum of 24 hp with 4d10+(4xCON Modifier) only proves his CON is higher than 1, which we already knew to be true, since no starting value should be lower than 3.

But if we look at the maximum range of damage, for Ho Thanh to die with two constrict strikes of 3d10+21, he should have no more than 92 hp (so to be reduced to -10 hp by 102 points of damage). For such, if we consider him to be at 7th level, his CON modifier should be no higher than 22/7, which means a CON modifier of 3 or less, so a CON of 17 or less.

[D.One]

Any thoughts on the matter?

[Sinewmire]

I doubt the elementals have constrict, as it is reserved for creatures that specifically squeeze and crush their opponents such as large snakes.

That said, they can still deal unarmed damage in a grapple, and Rich wouldn't pointlessly show us x number of identical panels of Thanh and the Elemental rolling opposed grapple checks.

I thought Thanh was cool too, and it was typical of the man that his last command was to order his second in command, Niu, to safety, and to die covering her escape.

[Onyavar]

PLEASE change the thread title.

The character you're fan of is called Thanh, not Thahn.

That aside: I like many side-line characters - I thought it was an outrage when Thanh was killed. Of course, there was no way around it, story-telling-wise. He was a paladin, and he was the leader of the resistance. He was doomed to be either successful in driving Xykon and the Hobgoblins out of AC, or die trying.

[D.One]

I doubt the elementals have constrict, as it is reserved for creatures that specifically squeeze and crush their opponents such as large snakes.
That said, they can still deal unarmed damage in a grapple...

Yeah, you're right. I had forgotten the possibility causing damage in a grapple. It didn't have to be Constrict, after all. That said, the unarmed/slam damage (It seems reasonable to consider that the damage for grapple would be the slam attack) for the Osmium Elemental, by the paralels I've explained earlier, is 3d10+14 (17-44).



... and Rich wouldn't pointlessly show us x number of identical panels of Thanh and the Elemental rolling opposed grapple checks.

Yeah, I agree on that too. It's hard to precise how many rounds of grappling damage in fact happened. It was at least 2, the one when Ho Thanh was caught and the one in which he died, but it could be more. That said, my previous analysis has another flaw, because it only considers the max CON for the maximum level I deduced for Ho Thanh, 7, but if he was of a level lower than that (an hypothesis for which we have some evidences), his maximum CON would be much higher.

We know he didn't pass out in the first round, so he must have at least 17 hp, but that says nothing beyond CON 1+, which means nothing, since we already consider him to be CON 3+, because that's the minimum starting value and I really think If Rich wanted to show us a paperthin frail CON 2- Character, such character would be perpetually sick (maybe like Kuurkk, the Anemic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0133.html)).

Hypothesis 1: 2 rounds - one round for the grappling, one round for the killing

The maximum damage caused is 88, which means Ho Thanh should have had no more than 78 hp.

a) If he was 7th level, that means he shouldn't have CON above 13.
b) If he was 6th level, that means he shouldn't have CON above 17.
c) If he was 5th level, that means he shouldn't have CON above 21.
d) If he was 4th level, that means he shouldn't have CON above 29. (ok, this one is pretty unreasonable)

Hypothesis 2: 3 rounds - one round for the grappling, one for the talking (in which the monster caused more damage), and one for the killing

The maximum damage caused is 132, which means Ho Thanh should have had no more than 122 hp.

a) If he was 7th level, that means he shouldn't have CON above 25.
b) If he was 6th level, that means he shouldn't have CON above 31.
c) If he was 5th level, that means he shouldn't have CON above 39.
d) If he was 4th level, that means he shouldn't have CON above 51.

That said, we see that, if he received 3 rounds of damage, we have no reasonable information about his maximum CON score.

I believe any value beyond 18-20 to be hard to believe, since he is a low-to-mid level character, part of a group that stated clearly they are low on resources (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0524.html), and anything beyond 30 is trully unreacheable for a non-epic character (If we suppose he started with a CON 18, upgraded it to 19 at 4th level, used a Manual of Bodily Health +5 and wears an Amulet of Health +6, he would reach 30, and that's a reaaaly unlikely combination for a character of his level).

I believe the key to narrow down this search is to determine his level more precisely. More on that later.


I thought Thanh was cool too, and it was typical of the man that his last command was to order his second in command, Niu, to safety, and to die covering her escape.

That's just what I'm saying. He's a hero, an underapreciated one, but a true hero.

[D.One]

PLEASE change the thread title.

The character you're fan of is called Thanh, not Thahn.

That aside: I like many side-line characters - I thought it was an outrage when Thanh was killed. Of course, there was no way around it, story-telling-wise. He was a paladin, and he was the leader of the resistance. He was doomed to be either successful in driving Xykon and the Hobgoblins out of AC, or die trying.

Sorry, my bad. Changed it already. Thanks. :smallsmile:

[Fyraltari]

able to turn undead, couldn’t turn more than one wight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0514.html)

I am probably wrong, but weren't both wights turned there? One took damage ("it stings") and the other ran off.


That aside: I like many side-line characters - I thought it was an outrage when Thanh was killed. Of course, there was no way around it, story-telling-wise. He was a paladin, and he was the leader of the resistance. He was doomed to be either successful in driving Xykon and the Hobgoblins out of AC, or die trying.

Yes they all stand out a lot, that's one of the many things I love about this comic. Anybody else hoping we'll get an update on wether Niu managed to join with the Azurites sometime?

[Emanick]

I'm a sucker for characters like Thanh, so count me in as a member of his fan club, too.

Adamantine is a real mineral, actually, better known as adamantine spar. (I actually didn't learn this until today; it's much better known for being legendary than for being real. :smallconfused: ) It has hardness 9 on the Moh scale. If we want to use it as a frame of reference for damage reduction, though, the Moh scale isn't very useful, because it's nonlinear (it doesn't scale in any consistent way, actually). If we want a linear measurement of hardness, the Vickers hardness scale is probably more useful. Under that scale, adamantine comes in at about 2035 kg/(mm^2). So let's say that each point of hardness in D&D is equivalent to 100 kg/(mm^2).

What's osmium's hardness on the Vickers scale? 300. Which means that under this logic, osmium would have a hardness of 3, considerably less than wood. That doesn't make any sense. I guess the lesson from this is that converting real-world physics to D&D concepts is hard. :smalltongue:

[D.One]

I am probably wrong, but weren't both wights turned there? One took damage ("it stings") and the other ran off.

From the SRD:

Turned undead flee from you by the best and fastest means available to them. They flee for 10 rounds (1 minute). If they cannot flee, they cower (giving any attack rolls against them a +2 bonus).

That means the one who stood ang fought wasn't turned, because he had plenty of chance to flee, and didn't do it.


Yes they all stand out a lot, that's one of the many things I love about this comic. Anybody else hoping we'll get an update on wether Niu managed to join with the Azurites sometime?

I fully expect her to appear besides Hinjo, should he be shown again.

[D.One]

I'm a sucker for characters like Thanh, so count me in as a member of his fan club, too.

Adamantine is a real mineral, actually, better known as adamantine spar. (I actually didn't learn this until today; it's much better known for being legendary than for being real. :smallconfused: ) It has hardness 9 on the Moh scale. If we want to use it as a frame of reference for damage reduction, though, the Moh scale isn't very useful, because it's nonlinear (it doesn't scale in any consistent way, actually). If we want a linear measurement of hardness, the Vickers hardness scale is probably more useful. Under that scale, adamantine comes in at about 2035 kg/(mm^2). So let's say that each point of hardness in D&D is equivalent to 100 kg/(mm^2).

What's osmium's hardness on the Vickers scale? 300. Which means that under this logic, osmium would have a hardness of 3, considerably less than wood. That doesn't make any sense. I guess the lesson from this is that converting real-world physics to D&D concepts is hard. :smalltongue:

Yeah, I know, real life has this funny habit of messing with our fictional concepts... :smallbiggrin:

But adamantine spar is a form of corundum, an oxide mineral more akin to gems than to iron or steel. In fact, ruby and saphire are diferent variety (and colors) of it.

The adamantine of medieval fantasy is much more akin to Marvel's adamantiumtm, a supermetal, a fact that doesn't help us at all in this kind of analysis... :smallfrown:

[Vinyadan]

Thanh, Ho Thanh,
What have they danh?
A goblin called you dibs
And then broke all your ribs;
When you carried communication
Of this you had no expectation.
Your death was however swell:
Even though there was no knell,
A earthquake tore down the hill
And now a crater marks your kill.
May you bask in the eternal dawn:
We'll wait, until you can respawn!

[Darth Paul]

Can we start a Ho Thanh Fanh Club? :smallamused:

[D.One]

Ho Thanh and Spells

Since Ho Thanh was shown as being able to turn undead, we have evidence his Paladin level is at least 4. That means, acording to SRD, that he should be able to cast Paladin spells too. However, we didn't see he casting any spell during all of his participation in the story.

Did he not cast spells because did not wanted to, or because he couldn't?

I know we won't have a definitive answer for this question, since we won't see him again to gather any more evidence, but which one is the most likely scenario?

Let's see:

For a Paladin level of 4 or 5, Ho Thanh would have 0 1st level spell slots, but could cast spells if he had any WIS bonus, which would mean a WIS 12+.

For a Paladin level of 6 or 7 (the maximum we evidenced for him), Ho Thanh would have 1 1st level spell slots, and should have a WIS 11+ to be able to cast spells.

Let's take a look at 1st level Paladin spells in the SRD:

Bless: Allies gain +1 on attack rolls and +1 on saves against fear.
Bless Water: Makes holy water.
Bless Weapon: Weapon strikes true against evil foes.
Create Water: Creates 2 gallons/level of pure water.
Cure Light Wounds: Cures 1d8 damage +1/level (max +5).
Detect Poison: Detects poison in one creature or small object.
Detect Undead: Reveals undead within 60 ft.
Divine Favor: You gain +1 per three levels on attack and damage rolls.
Endure Elements: Exist comfortably in hot or cold environments.
Magic Weapon: Weapon gains +1 bonus.
Protection from Chaos: +2 to AC and saves, counter mind control, hedge out elementals and outsiders.
Protection from Evil: +2 to AC and saves, counter mind control, hedge out elementals and outsiders.
Read Magic: Read scrolls and spellbooks.
Resistance: Subject gains +1 on saving throws.
Restoration, Lesser: Dispels magical ability penalty or repairs 1d4 ability damage.
Virtue: Subject gains 1 temporary hp.

Many of these spells could have become extremely useful against chalenges he faced, such as the devils Redcloak summoned during the Fall of the Resistance (Bless Weapon is a must-have for paladins facing evil outsiders). With that in mind, what if he didn't cast any spells because he couldn't?

For that to happen, he should be level 4-5 and have a WIS lower than 12, or level 6-7 and have a WIS lower than 11.

We have another indication of his level, as pointed before, in the fact that he is never seen using more than one attack. Ok, he might be moving and attacking all the times we see him, in such a way that he couldn't use a full attack action. Except that here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0515.html), here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0516.html), and even here agains Haley (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0519.html), he apparently started his turn already close to the oponent, and had no reason to hold back and don't use full attack.

If he wasn't using more than one attack because he only had one attack to use, that means he had a Base Attack no greater than +5, which means a paladin level no greater than 5. That way, for him to not be able to cast spells, he should have a maximum WIS of 11.

This is pure speculation, though. It's only the scenario I think more plausible. What do you think?

[martianmister]

I used to ship him with Tsukiko. And now Redcloak killed them both. :smallfrown:

[Fyraltari]

I used to ship him with Tsukiko. And now Redcloak killed them both. :smallfrown:

Not that kind of domination!

[D.One]

I used to ship him with Tsukiko. And now Redcloak killed them both. :smallfrown:

To her, him being dead wouldn't be a problem...:smallwink:

[M.A.D]

I used to ship him with Tsukiko. And now Redcloak killed them both. :smallfrown:

To her, him being dead wouldn't be a problem...:smallwink:

If any, that'd make him more attractive to her. :smallbiggrin:

[RatElemental]

-snippity-

Do we know if he had a mount? I believe paladins get their mounts at level 5, which would narrow things down a bit.

[D.One]

Do we know if he had a mount? I believe paladins get their mounts at level 5, which would narrow things down a bit.

Unfortunately, we don't have a precise answer for that one. We've never seen him summoning a mount, but the situations he appeared weren't ones in which a mount would be helpful (he might use its help in combat, but in most combats we see him involved, he would have to sacrifice a round of attacks to summon the mount).

We could suppose he didn't have a mount. That would mean he was Paladin 4. This hypothesis is reinforced by other evidences, like he never attacking more than once (indicating a level 5 or lower) and never casting a paladin spell (indicating Level 6-7 and maximum WIS 10, or Level 4-5 and maximum WIS 11).

None of this evidences is absolute proof of him being level 4, but I find the sum of all them quite meaningful.