Trained Barbarian Subclass (name needed)

[suplee215]

Here is a Barbarian subclass I made around the idea of "what will happen if a Barbarian got a fighting style?" Basically a barbarian who trains just as much in tactics and how to fight as he does his rage. So what do you guys think? Please be honest even though I am new to homebrewing. Here's the class (and yes, the name sucks).

Barbarian Subclass Thoughtful Rager
Lvl 3 Mindful Rage: Your rage is more controlled and refined than the average barbarian when you choose this subclass at lvl 3. When you rage you may make a single attack with your offhand weapon or your shield (which is treated as an improvised weapon) or you may make an unarmed attack. You also choose one of the following fighting styles:
Two Weapon Fighting
Great Weapon Fighting
Dueling
Lvl 6 Careful Rage: Your awareness while raging may help you avoid hits. When you are hit with an attack while raging you may use a reaction to increase your AC by an amount equal to your rage damage bonus until the start of your next turn. This bonus ends early if your rage ends.
Lvl 10 Never Unarmed: You are always ready for battle. You gain proficiency with improvised weapons. Also if you are unarmed before you make an attack you may draw a weapon regardless of if you’ve previously drawn a weapon this turn.
Lvl 14 Unusual Tactics: You have developed ways of dealing with enemies who try to out think you. All melee weapons you use gain the thrown property with a range of 30/120 feet. Thrown weapons may benefit from your rage damage, reckless attack, and brutal critical features.



My wording might a little off in some things so sorry. For the bonus attack when raging, the intent was to be a tiny bit more efficient with action economy without breaking the game and also to benefit two weapon fighting which is usually a subpar option when you have too many bonus attacks. The wording there might be too confusing though. Basically if you are TWF, you can make an attack with either weapon in your hand, if you are dueling you may bash them with your shield (unsure if to grant proficiency on this attack or not which is why I added it to the lvl 10 ribbon ability) and if you want to grab the biggest weapon you can find you can punch/elbow someone (wanted to avoid a free greatsword GWM attack making TWF obsolete and it is still extra damage on your first turn which is nice). Other than that my only real concerns is with the balance of the class and the name. Any feedback and advice will be appreciated.

[Fire Tarrasque]

I'll throw a name out there... Path of the Tempered?

[GalacticAxekick]

Lvl 3 Mindful Rage: Your rage is more controlled and refined than the average barbarian when you choose this subclass at lvl 3. When you rage you may make a single attack with your offhand weaponAs part of the Attack action? If so, this is probably too strong. For free on their turn? If so, defitely too strong.

This is only balanced if it's a Bonus Action, which overlaps with the Fighter's Two-Weapon Fighting Style and the Berzerker's Frenzy. It'd rewrite this feature from scratch with a unique effect in mind.


or your shield (which is treated as an improvised weapon)or you may make an unarmed attack.Improvised weapon attacks don't add proficiency, and so they're terribly unreliable. Unarmed strikes don't have a die, so they're terribly weak.

If you're trying to encourage Barbarians to use one-handed weapons by giving them an extra attack with their off hand, it would be simpler to give them the extra attack with the one-handed weapon itself (like Frenzy).

If not, what are you trying to encourage, enable or represent?


You also choose one of the following fighting styles:Since fighting styles are already improving the Barbarian's offense why not improve their versatility? I'd remove the Rage restrictions on armour, spellcasting and Dex weapons.


Lvl 6 Careful Rage: Your awareness while raging may help you avoid hits. When you are hit with an attack while raging you may use a reaction to increase your AC by an amount equal to your rage damage bonus until the start of your next turn. This bonus ends early if your rage ends. Far too powerful, like having Shield as a cantrip.


Lvl 10 Never Unarmed: You are always ready for battle. You gain proficiency with improvised weapons. Also if you are unarmed before you make an attack you may draw a weapon regardless of if you’ve previously drawn a weapon this turn.This doesn't change much, especially at this level. The player will rarely need to draw weapons and rarely be without their own.

Also, I don't think this represents training very well. If anything, this is a feature for an untrained brawler.


Lvl 14 Unusual Tactics: You have developed ways of dealing with enemies who try to out think you. All melee weapons you use gain the thrown property with a range of 30/120 feet. Thrown weapons may benefit from your rage damage, reckless attack, and brutal critical features.Very cool feature! But again, I think it's better for a lower level (e.g. 3rd, when playstyle is being decided) and I think
it's more fitting for an untrained brawler (who improvised uses for weapons, after all)

~~~

I recommend you adopt a 3rd level feature that fundamentally changes how the Barbarian plays, then use later features to complement this style and theme.

[suplee215]

As part of the Attack action? If so, this is probably too strong. For free on their turn? If so, defitely too strong.

This is only balanced if it's a Bonus Action, which overlaps with the Fighter's Two-Weapon Fighting Style and the Berzerker's Frenzy. It'd rewrite this feature from scratch with a unique effect in mind.

Improvised weapon attacks don't add proficiency, and so they're terribly unreliable. Unarmed strikes don't have a die, so they're terribly weak.

If you're trying to encourage Barbarians to use one-handed weapons by giving them an extra attack with their off hand, it would be simpler to give them the extra attack with the one-handed weapon itself (like Frenzy).


Perhaps this is written wrong but basically the intent is that when you enter your rage as a bonus action, as part of that rage you get the attack. Only when entering a rage. It is not meant to be every turn. Basically, it is so a TWF player doesn't feel like he is wasting his fighting style on turns where they rage. But I also didn't want to make it be the TWF barbarian and have reasons for others. The fighting style is the major benefit of this.

[suplee215]

Far too powerful, like having Shield as a cantrip.

.

Fair enough, I was wondering if making it only work for 1 attack will be more balance or if the combination of reckless attack effectively lowering AC and the slow progression of rage damage will balance it.





This doesn't change much, especially at this level. The player will rarely need to draw weapons and rarely be without their own.

Also, I don't think this represents training very well. If anything, this is a feature for an untrained brawler.


.

The 10th level ability for barbarian is usually a ribbonish effect. It also supports a throwing style that the current edition does not support. Javelins or handaxes will be much more useful with this and one will not have to fear too much throwing weapons and not having another weapon. Totem barbarian gets some spells, Beserker gets a frighten action based off CHR, Ancestor get a spell, Storm get to put their resistances and buffs on allies while they rage but not too much and zealot get a pretty good once a day battle cry. Perhaps if I make the shield bash from earlier with proficiency this won't be needed.




Very cool feature! But again, I think it's better for a lower level (e.g. 3rd, when playstyle is being decided) and I think
it's more fitting for an untrained brawler (who improvised uses for weapons, after all)



Perhaps my thing is a bit more untrained with the improvised weapon in there, but also a trained warrior often knows how to use everything as a weapon. I may need to work on the theme more. I saw this as enough for lvl 14 as it allows a barbarian to handle range soldiers, flying monsters and others. Similar to how the totem warrior Eagle ability allows you to fly that can be used for fliers. Thank for your advice though, not trying to argue how my first ride was perfect just trying to explain it more.

[GalacticAxekick]

Perhaps this is written wrong but basically the intent is that when you enter your rage as a bonus action, as part of that rage you get the attack. Only when entering a rage. It is not meant to be every turn. Basically, it is so a TWF player doesn't feel like he is wasting his fighting style on turns where they rage. But I also didn't want to make it be the TWF barbarian and have reasons for others. The fighting style is the major benefit of this.My mistake! That makes a lot more sense mechanically, though I'm not sure how it ties to the path's themes.


Fair enough, I was wondering if making it only work for 1 attack will be more balance or if the combination of reckless attack effectively lowering AC and the slow progression of rage damage will balance it. I think making it work for 1 attack fixes the balance. Also, given the resemblance with the Defensive Duelist feat, I think it's a fitting representation of martial training.


The 10th level ability for barbarian is usually a ribbonish effect. It also supports a throwing style that the current edition does not support. Javelins or handaxes will be much more useful with this and one will not have to fear too much throwing weapons and not having another weapon. Totem barbarian gets some spells, Beserker gets a frighten action based off CHR, Ancestor get a spell, Storm get to put their resistances and buffs on allies while they rage but not too much and zealot get a pretty good once a day battle cry. Perhaps if I make the shield bash from earlier with proficiency this won't be needed.I hadn't noticed the implication for throwing weapons, and I love that you're accommodating this build! But I think throwing weapons deserves to be the centrepiece of a build, rather than a ribbon.


Perhaps my thing is a bit more untrained with the improvised weapon in there, but also a trained warrior often knows how to use everything as a weapon. I may need to work on the theme more. I saw this as enough for lvl 14 as it allows a barbarian to handle range soldiers, flying monsters and others. Similar to how the totem warrior Eagle ability allows you to fly that can be used for fliers. Thank for your advice though, not trying to argue how my first ride was perfect just trying to explain it more.I might split this path into two: one which represents a martially trained Barbarian (with Fighting Style and access to weapons and even armour typical of a Fighter starting at 3rd level), and one which represents a totally improvisational Barbarian (with improvised and thrown weapons that add rage damage, and perhaps improved unarmed striking/grappling/shoving starting at 3rd level).

[suplee215]

My mistake! That makes a lot more sense mechanically, though I'm not sure how it ties to the path's themes.

I think making it work for 1 attack fixes the balance. Also, given the resemblance with the Defensive Duelist feat, I think it's a fitting representation of martial training.

I hadn't noticed the implication for throwing weapons, and I love that you're accommodating this build! But I think throwing weapons deserves to be the centrepiece of a build, rather than a ribbon.

I might split this path into two: one which represents a martially trained Barbarian (with Fighting Style and access to weapons and even armour typical of a Fighter starting at 3rd level), and one which represents a totally improvisational Barbarian (with improvised and thrown weapons that add rage damage, and perhaps improved unarmed striking/grappling/shoving starting at 3rd level).

Seems like a way to go. I still think throwing weapons can be seen as requiring more formal training than brawling does. You need to train a lot to make sure you are accurate with different balance weapons. Also the "theme" reasoning behind an attack when going into rage is that a normal barbarian when he rages just loses all focus for a second and screams at the world while this barbarian focuses his rage and is able to attack when he calls on it.

[GalacticAxekick]

Seems like a way to go. I still think throwing weapons can be seen as requiring more formal training than brawling does. You need to train a lot to make sure you are accurate with different balance weapons. If your barbarian gains the power to treat all martial and simple weapons as thrown, you might flavour it as specialized training. But alongside with features that let them improvise weapons, this Barbarian is throwing rocks, chairs and china just as easily as swords and hammers. The implication is that they're just really good at throwing and swinging things, not formally trained.


Also the "theme" reasoning behind an attack when going into rage is that a normal barbarian when he rages just loses all focus for a second and screams at the world while this barbarian focuses his rage and is able to attack when he calls on it.Going into rage is a Bonus Action. The barbarian can attack, dash, disengage, dodge, help someone, hide, move, perform first aid, search, speak, use an object, or really do anything at that moment, far from "losing all focus for a second and screaming at the world".

[suplee215]

If your barbarian gains the power to treat all martial and simple weapons as thrown, you might flavour it as specialized training. But alongside with features that let them improvise weapons, this Barbarian is throwing rocks, chairs and china just as easily as swords and hammers. The implication is that they're just really good at throwing and swinging things, not formally trained.

Going into rage is a Bonus Action. The barbarian can attack, dash, disengage, dodge, help someone, hide, move, perform first aid, search, speak, use an object, or really do anything at that moment, far from "losing all focus for a second and screaming at the world".

Fair enough. the only reason I was adding the improvised weapons was to give the shield proficiency so dueling can bash with it but I can just add that to the only ability that allows you to do it instead. My feeling was the most trained fighters know to use anything as a weapon (Bullseye or Hawkeye are certainly not street brawlers and both have the ability to throw anything as a weapon). But then it also does bring up images of a barfight where someone throws anything. Perhaps only weapons you are proficient with and require tavern brawler to have proficiency in improvised weapons?

[GalacticAxekick]

Fair enough. the only reason I was adding the improvised weapons was to give the shield proficiency so dueling can bash with it but I can just add that to the only ability that allows you to do it instead.That would make much more sense, since Mindful Rage's shield bash was very underpowered without proficiency.

Mind, my criticisms for the Mindful Rage still stand: nothing about making an extra attack when you begin raging says "mindfulness" to me, since Rage never preventing you from taking actions as normal. Making Rage compatible with Dex weapons, spells or heavy armour would represent this better, in my opinion, and do a better job of defining what the archetype can do uniquely.


My feeling was the most trained fighters know to use anything as a weapon (Bullseye or Hawkeye are certainly not street brawlers and both have the ability to throw anything as a weapon). But then it also does bring up images of a barfight where someone throws anything. Perhaps only weapons you are proficient with and require tavern brawler to have proficiency in improvised weapons?Throwing weapons you're proficient in would make much more sense, as a representation of special training.

But even then, characters like Bullseye and Hawkeye are specialized marksmen. For the Barbarian's thoughtful rage to very specifically train them in marksmanship (to the point that they're better marksmen than Fighters!) is odd to me. It would make more sense to first give them a few Fighter staples (such as Fighting Style, Dex weapons and heavy armour), and then put a Fighter spin on Barbarian tricks:

Your Careful Rage feature does this well by adding Rage Damage to AC, as if parrying. Similar features might add Rage Damage to certain saves, ability checks or attack rolls (though you'll need to be careful about balance).
Consider a feature that plays with Reckless Attack. I think Rapid Strike the Unearthed Arcana's Knight and Samurai might be an inspiration.
Continue with other Barbarian features. Danger Sense might work well with a version of the UA Cavalier's Born to the Saddle. Feral Instinct might work with a version of Combat Superiority + Relentless). Brutal Critical will work fantastically with the Champion's Improved/Superior Critical or the UA Brute's Devastating Critical).

[suplee215]

That would make much more sense, since Mindful Rage's shield bash was very underpowered without proficiency.

Mind, my criticisms for the Mindful Rage still stand: nothing about making an extra attack when you begin raging says "mindfulness" to me, since Rage never preventing you from taking actions as normal. Making Rage compatible with Dex weapons, spells or heavy armour would represent this better, in my opinion, and do a better job of defining what the archetype can do uniquely.

Throwing weapons you're proficient in would make much more sense, as a representation of special training.

But even then, characters like Bullseye and Hawkeye are specialized marksmen. For the Barbarian's thoughtful rage to very specifically train them in marksmanship (to the point that they're better marksmen than Fighters!) is odd to me. It would make more sense to first give them a few Fighter staples (such as Fighting Style, Dex weapons and heavy armour), and then put a Fighter spin on Barbarian tricks:

Your Careful Rage feature does this well by adding Rage Damage to AC, as if parrying. Similar features might add Rage Damage to certain saves, ability checks or attack rolls (though you'll need to be careful about balance).
Consider a feature that plays with Reckless Attack. I think Rapid Strike the Unearthed Arcana's Knight and Samurai might be an inspiration.
Continue with other Barbarian features. Danger Sense might work well with a version of the UA Cavalier's Born to the Saddle. Feral Instinct might work with a version of Combat Superiority + Relentless). Brutal Critical will work fantastically with the Champion's Improved/Superior Critical or the UA Brute's Devastating Critical).

Well the major benefit of Mindful rage that invokes training is the fighting style. But I can see why the attack by itself does not. Perhaps "Trained Rage" or something will be a better name for it. As for Bullseye and Hawkeye being better at range than up close, that is debatable. Hawkeye spent some time as Ronin using only a sword and can handle himself in a brawl pretty well and Bullseye's most classic fights are hand to hand (he defeated Elektra in hand to hand combat which is no easy task). I will consider the other things, but I think making the Barbarian being able to use dex with his features is too changing the core of what a barbarian is and off balances the game. Or maybe I just like the big guy too much to allow a dex version. I also don't want to steal too much from the fighter because then why not just multiclass? ALso though I just got a bit of inspiration from Heracles when trying to think of a classic hero who no one will argue is a barbarian but also fought at range (his bow is often forgotten in modern adaptions but the myths had it as arguably his main weapon).