Is there a broken rule?

[tedcahill2]

Most people love and hate D&D 3.5 (and probably Pathfinder by extension) because of the depth of options. It's a system of, "If you can think it, you can build it."; it's the LEGO of TRPGs.

So on that stream of thought, is there a single rule that breaks the game, or is it merely a combination of rules that causes problems?

[Zaq]

Diplomacy leaps to mind. It’s less bad if you don’t put together all of the pieces to turbocharge it and make it super fast and super reliable, but it’s still pretty bad.

For that matter, define “rule.”

[Grod_The_Giant]

It's definitely a cumulative effect. There are a bunch of minor structural dysfunctions baked into the base rules that make things harder for martial types, but mostly the issue is that many options are drastically stronger or weaker than comparable options, and that unexpected synergies crop up all over the place.

Minor quibble: I wouldn't call it lego-- it's more like, oh, buying a bunch of models that can be put together separately, but if you know what you're doing you can combine parts and build something unexpected. Or maybe just wind up with a gross, glue-y mess. Lego is, like, Gurps-- lots of simple parts that can be combined in endless ways, and even more if you buy special space sets or something. (And Mutants and Masterminds is K'nex-- a few simple parts that can be combined in many ways to create unique complex structures).

[JNAProductions]

If you wanna get technical, check the Rules Dysfunctions threads. Those break the game, but not in the "this is too powerful" sense, more in the "this makes no sense and the game doesn't function with this rule".

[Gruftzwerg]

It's several small pieces that sum up in the end.

First we have the obvious power gap between mundane and full casters. While the first focus on solving combat situation and a few situations where their skills might come in handy, the full caster gets options to solve all kind of problems (combat, social, stealth, travel, information gathering...).

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Than we have the ubercharger problem left for all mundanes. You want high physical dmg? Build ubercharger! This is caused by the following pieces. First we have the Pounce ACF for Barb1 which opens the gate to hell. Than we have a dozen of options to get multipliers on charge, be it sole for Power Attack (e.g Leap Attack, Combat Brute, Frenzied Berserker) or the entire dmg (Lance, flying Dive Attacks with piercing/slashing weapon, valorous weapon enchantment, Sandals of the Tiger Leap for unarmed....).
And if that wasn't enough, there is the Shock Trooper tactical feat, that lets you switch the attack penalty of Power Attack to a AC penalty, so you are more likely to hit with maxed "Power Attack"-attacks.

Oh you wanted to build a ranged mundane character you say? Bloodstorm Blade lets you become a ranged ubercharger...

IMHO almost any non ubercharger build gets totally overshadowed in terms of combat power. You can't keep up with the multiplier dmg that other builds lack.

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And as last point magic again^^. Magic is a problem of its own. Some spell effects are so powerful and abuse able that they can create problems of their own.
E.g. Alter Self, a 2nd lvl spell, gives you access to a flying form. Further it has a longer duration (10min./clvl) than the earliest fly spell (3rd, 1min./clvl).
Changing forms get even worser when you have access to polymorph or wild shape. Now you can choose combat forms stronger than your mundane teammates. Or more flexible than your skillmonkey.
Polymoph 4th lvl overshadows Tensers Transformation a 6th lvl spell totally.
And I haven't started to talk about Ice Assassins, Whish/Miracle and such things. Or spell combos like "Locate City Bomb", "Scry&Fry".

And lastly the hardcore TO builds of 3.5 like Pun Pun (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Pun-Pun) and BoBaFeat (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?503665-quot-TO-BoBaFeat-quot-Body-outside-Body-amp-Moment-of-Clarity):
When you can get infinite power due to infinite loop(hole)s and even overshadow all gods... yeeah.. what was the point again?..^^

[Florian]

So on that stream of thought, is there a single rule that breaks the game, or is it merely a combination of rules that causes problems?

Neither. What causes problems is the overlap between "game" and "simulation", both requiring different kinds of rules and those don't meshing well in their present form. A system-based approach to the "game" part to gain something, in this case "balance", by default rules out the level of agency that is expected of a "simulation" and voce versa.

[Telonius]

It's mostly in combination that rules break. Take something like Festering Anger on a Cancer Mage. It's one of the best-known loops, and particularly embarrassing because both the disease and the prestige class are in the same book (Book of Vile Darkness). In isolation, there's nothing wrong with Festering Anger as a disease; it's a nasty thing that can debilitate your character. Same with Cancer Mage; being immune to harmful effects of disease is useful, reasonable in most cases, and thematic to the concept. In combination, they give the character an arbitrarily high Strength score.

One of the few cases where a single rule can break the game all on its own (at least for a certain value of "break") is Warshaper's Morphic Weapons. That's more due to poor wording than intentional breakage. I really think the intent was to allow a single natural weapon - or at most, a set of like-named natural weapons like claw/claw - to grow on a character. But the way it's worded, there's no cap on the number of natural weapons a character can gain.

[Darrin]

If you want a single rule being broken: Wheaton's Law (http://www.wheatonslaw.com/) probably covers it pretty well.

[TotallyNotEvil]

Honestly? Any halfway-sane DM would just go 'lol, funny. But no.' to the "exploits" that "break" the game.

The game has problems, but most theorycrafting tricks like infinite loops or things like the peasant railgun are just that, theorycrafting.

[CharonsHelper]

Minor quibble: I wouldn't call it lego-- it's more like, oh, buying a bunch of models that can be put together separately, but if you know what you're doing you can combine parts and build something unexpected. Or maybe just wind up with a gross, glue-y mess. Lego is, like, Gurps-- lots of simple parts that can be combined in endless ways, and even more if you buy special space sets or something. (And Mutants and Masterminds is K'nex-- a few simple parts that can be combined in many ways to create unique complex structures).

If GURPs is Lego - what does Hero System compare to? An erector set?

[Candlejack]

The unique critetia for how an ardent selects their powers was probably caused by the writers of compete psionic not being very familiar with the games rules.

But having said that, it's probably for the best. It allows the ardent to multiclass more freely and makes it stand out from the psion.

[Deadline]

The Book of Exalted Deeds conversion rules for Diplomacy and Evil beings is pretty broken from the get go, and that's just with someone who has a decent Charisma and max ranks in Diplomacy. There are others, (mostly spells), but the real pile of broken BS comes in with the surely unintended combinations of rules.

[Menzath]

If GURPs is Lego - what does Hero System compare to? An erector set?

ROFL I know. What other trpg has advanced math, starting from character creation. And the options. I don't think there is anything you can't make.

To bad the core book part 1 is about as thick as the three core books for 3.5. RIP that binding.

[2D8HP]

If GURPs is Lego - what does Hero System compare to? An erector set?.
I immediately thought of:


Imagine if all real-world conversations were like internet D&D conversations...

Kid #1: I'm gonna take my castle Legos® and build a sailboat out of them!

Kid #2: What!? How dare you say that sailboats are cooler than castles? That's factually incorrect!

Kid #3: Lego® brand building blocks are about imagination, not mechanics. If you can't just throw your castle in the bathtub and pretend it's a sailboat, you fail at creativity!

Kid #2: Yeah! I'm not playing Lego® wrong, you are!

Kid #4: What a waste of time. You should just buy a toy sailboat.

Kid #5: Noobs! Both castles and sailboats are suboptimal. You should build a cable-stayed suspension bridge.

Grognard: Bah. The original 1913 Erector Set was the last true edition of building toys!



To the OP: don't listen to these naysayers. Keep tinkering -- and sharing -- to your heart's content.

[Knaight]

Most people love and hate D&D 3.5 (and probably Pathfinder by extension) because of the depth of options. It's a system of, "If you can think it, you can build it."; it's the LEGO of TRPGs.

Yeah, no. This explains the people who like it, but plenty of people who despise the system favor systems with vastly more options. D&D 3.5 has far fewer options than any half decent generic system, and there's no shortage of those.

[Grod_The_Giant]

If GURPs is Lego - what does Hero System compare to? An erector set?
A 3D printer and a set of modeling software?

[tedcahill2]

Yeah, no. This explains the people who like it, but plenty of people who despise the system favor systems with vastly more options. D&D 3.5 has far fewer options than any half decent generic system, and there's no shortage of those.

D&D might have fewer options than a generic system, but my comparison was more along the lines of comparing D&D editions to one another, not to other systems entirely.

[Knaight]

D&D might have fewer options than a generic system, but my comparison was more along the lines of comparing D&D editions to one another, not to other systems entirely.

If you restrict the class of people who dislike it to people who dislike it while liking other D&D systems, that's at least somewhat more true. It's still not a particularly common criticism.