Pokemon: Team Rocket's motivation/philosophy

[JeenLeen]

My daughter started watching Pokemon, the original from about 20 years ago. When Team Rocket did their intro, it caught as a pretty intriguing philosophy.

To protect the world from devastation
To unit all peoples within our nation
To denounce the evils of truth and love
To extend our reach to the stars above

This makes sense if the higher-ups of Team Rocket have sensed some calamity, or just foresee earth no longer being inhabitable, and so they are gathering resources (Pokemon) in order to force a coalition to move off-world. They reject concepts of good and evil, hence denouncing the 'evils of truth and love.'

In a lot of ways, it sounds similar to the bad humans in C. S. Lewis' space trilogy.

Does the manga or anime ever go into the actual motivations of Team Rocket, and are they similar to their motto... or is the motto just some coolish-sounding gibberish to say "we're the bad guys"?

Note: I'm asking about the organization as a whole,
not Jessie and James themselves

[Peelee]

I haven't read the manga, but the game (and to a lesser extent, the anime) present Team Rocket as a simple criminal enterprise.

[Lord Raziere]

Nope. Never does into their motivations. In fact, Cassidy and Butch, a supposedly more successful duo in Team Rocket have an almost completely different motto:

Cassidy: Prepare for trouble...
Butch: ...and make it double!
Both: Here's our mission, so you better listen!
Cassidy: To infect the world with devastation!
Butch: To blight all people in every nation!
Cassidy: To denounce the goodness of truth and love!
Butch: To extend our wrath to the stars above!
Cassidy: Cassidy!
Butch: And Butch, of course!
Cassidy: We're Team Rocket, circling Earth all day and night.
Butch: Surrender to us now or you will surely lose the fight!

So yeah, its just something they say for style points.

[JadedDM]

Yeah, Team Rocket are just criminals. They steal pokemon and sell them for cash.

I think the reason James' and Jesse's motto sounds almost altruistic, is sort of meant as a joke. They are really bad at being criminals. In fact, I don't know if the show ever addresses it directly, but it seems like the only time Team Rocket succeeds at anything, is when they do so legally. They're actually pretty good at catching wild pokemon, for instance. But they're awful at stealing other peoples'. (James and Jesse don't even dress properly. Team Rocket all wear black. They dress in white.)

Which probably explains why a 10 year old kid who needs a Pokedex to tell him what a Pidgey is can beat them every week for years and years.

[Daer]

So out of curiosity checked if there was direct translations of japanese motto if it had more clues.. well..
from bulbapedia (https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Team_Rocket_mottos)
Musashi: If you ask us this or that...
Kojirō: The pity of the world is what responds!
Musashi: To prevent the destruction of the world!
Kojirō: To protect the peace of the world!
Musashi: To stand by the evils of love and truth!
Kojirō: The lovely, charmy villains!
Musashi: Musashi!
Kojirō: Kojirō!
Musashi: The pair from Team Rocket soars through the galaxy!
Kojirō: A white hole, a white tomorrow awaits us!
Nyarth: Something like that!

so.. mm yeah.

[Red Fel]

I like the take Saphroneth took in Ashes of the Past (https://www.fanfiction.net/s/7262793/1/Ashes-of-the-Past). (It's fanfic, but really, really good fanfic.) Basically, Giovanni does want to "protect the world from devastation," inasmuch as, in order to take control of the world, there needs to be one. So he sees part of the organization's goal as preventing major global threats, a serious concern when there are monster-gods roaming the planet and upheaving entire ecosystems. Here's a quote:


That stuff about profit is all very good for the grunts, but we have a broader mandate than that. We're about control, yes, but for that we need to have somewhere to control. And you three have - perhaps astonishingly - just qualified for Executive status. The lowest rung, perhaps, but you're privy to the true purpose. It's even in the public motto - layers within layers. Protect the world from devastation. We need the place standing to get anywhere in it, and so we have the secondary purpose of finding global threats and stopping them.

I like that interpretation, personally.

[Aotrs Commander]

I like the take Saphroneth took in Ashes of the Past (https://www.fanfiction.net/s/7262793/1/Ashes-of-the-Past). (It's fanfic, but really, really good fanfic.) Basically, Giovanni does want to "protect the world from devastation," inasmuch as, in order to take control of the world, there needs to be one. So he sees part of the organization's goal as preventing major global threats, a serious concern when there are monster-gods roaming the planet and upheaving entire ecosystems. Here's a quote:



I like that interpretation, personally.

Like a lot of that story (and I VERY DEFINITELY second the recommendation), it's a really good idea.

[Traab]

Yeah I think when butch and cassidy showed up it was done to prove that jessie and james are worthless losers who dont understand anything about their own organization. You even get the idea that the only reason they are still team rocket members is that noone bothered to officially terminate their membership. There were several times they would call up giovanni and it was basically treated with a deep sigh of annoyance. "Yeah yeah, built a robo vacuum to catch pikachu. Almost got him huh? Grats, go away and try again." Maybe they are like distant relatives that giovanni has to keep on the payroll and he is just happy they are keeping themselves busy trying to steal a freaking pikachu instead of screwing up something important.

[Lord Raziere]

Yeah I think when butch and cassidy showed up it was done to prove that jessie and james are worthless losers who dont understand anything about their own organization. You even get the idea that the only reason they are still team rocket members is that noone bothered to officially terminate their membership. There were several times they would call up giovanni and it was basically treated with a deep sigh of annoyance. "Yeah yeah, built a robo vacuum to catch pikachu. Almost got him huh? Grats, go away and try again." Maybe they are like distant relatives that giovanni has to keep on the payroll and he is just happy they are keeping themselves busy trying to steal a freaking pikachu instead of screwing up something important.

Actually, your exactly right, that IS the only reason they kept being Team Rocket members.

Until in Hoenn when they were just kicked out entirely. for an entire region they were basically on their own.

Then let back in later after that, still as losers. Giovanni didn't even remember their names, and didn't know who they were when they came back.

[Quiver]

I am inordinately amused by the fact that as the games went on, the Team Agenda's became stuff like "Terraform the Earth," "Destroy Time and Space," and "Create a superweapon," whereas the OG criminal team was just in it for the money.

When Pokemon started scaling up, it went all in.

[Kantaki]

I for one blame Ash and/or Pikachu and their contagious stupidity.
(Seriously, with Alola they've outdone themselves. From what I've seen they got everyone there)

Either that or the constant electro shocks have a negative influence.

I mean before they met Ash they were competent enough to get Wanted posters.
Sure, had they been truly capable they would've avoided that, but it still implies they weren't entirely unsuccessful.
At least that was my interpretation back then.

And the times they got missions that kept them away from the twerps their success rate increased.

[Quiver]

I haven't seen the episodes in questions - There is no post-Orange Island anime- but I think at some point, they did an arc where Jessie and James were re-assigned to other jobs, which they did occasionally succeed at?

Not to mention all the tech they can whip up at a literal moments notice, and the fact that they are such masters of disguise that Ash, who sees them more than he sees his mom, and they are probably actually pretty dangerous.

Just not around Ash for some reason. And fortunately for law enforcement everywhere, he is the hill they have chosen to die upon.

[Kitten Champion]

I haven't seen the episodes in questions - There is no post-Orange Island anime- but I think at some point, they did an arc where Jessie and James were re-assigned to other jobs, which they did occasionally succeed at?

Not to mention all the tech they can whip up at a literal moments notice, and the fact that they are such masters of disguise that Ash, who sees them more than he sees his mom, and they are probably actually pretty dangerous.

Just not around Ash for some reason. And fortunately for law enforcement everywhere, he is the hill they have chosen to die upon.

In Pokemon Black & White they soft-rebooted all the characters - to basically do Kanto again - and Team Rocket were allowed to be relatively competent and far more... sinister, I guess. They did start off for a while being modestly legitimate threats to the protagonists, until they were Flanderized as comic relief characters who filled the formulaic need for a conflict and quick act-three resolution whenever that role wasn't being filled by a rival or gym leader.

Black & White had the pretty unique position of them being defeated in some way - they'd fail to steal the Pokemon of the week, or something similar - but succeeding in some secondary fashion which is significant to their overall plans, and physically escaping rather than being "blasted off again".

Personally, I liked Team Rocket just being organized crime, that the focus was on beating the Rival and becoming Champion and not saving the world. That you're out freely adventuring, looking for new Pokemon and raising your own... and beating the local thugs is just one of those adventures that you experience. When they get into a cult that resurrects an ancient super-laser that'll destroy all life on the continent for instance, you get into the territory where the Meteor is coming down and you're out Chocobo racing. Because Pokemon's mostly about the Chocobo racing, when you get down to it.

[Traab]

In Pokemon Black & White they soft-rebooted all the characters - to basically do Kanto again - and Team Rocket were allowed to be relatively competent and far more... sinister, I guess. They did start off for a while being modestly legitimate threats to the protagonists, until they were Flanderized as comic relief characters who filled the formulaic need for a conflict and quick act-three resolution whenever that role wasn't being filled by a rival or gym leader.

Black & White had the pretty unique position of them being defeated in some way - they'd fail to steal the Pokemon of the week, or something similar - but succeeding in some secondary fashion which is significant to their overall plans, and physically escaping rather than being "blasted off again".

Personally, I liked Team Rocket just being organized crime, that the focus was on beating the Rival and becoming Champion and not saving the world. That you're out freely adventuring, looking for new Pokemon and raising your own... and beating the local thugs is just one of those adventures that you experience. When they get into a cult that resurrects an ancient super-laser that'll destroy all life on the continent for instance, you get into the territory where the Meteor is coming down and you're out Chocobo racing. Because Pokemon's mostly about the Chocobo racing, when you get down to it.

WARK! (Admit it, you heard the sound effect) But yeah, I admit I wish they had been a little more serious about the attempts instead of being comic relief all the time. Someone who was actually dangerous to ash rather than a royal pain and annoyance. It also didnt help how most of the conflicts served only to further make pikachu seem a god as robot after device, after trap, all designed specifically to stop pikachu, got overloaded and obliterated by pikachu who is apparently a chaos damage type in the anime since he does massive damage to everything. Though I will admit there is very little they could have done to keep jessie and james from being jokes since they try every single episode, and fail every single episode. Maybe a few arcs where they actually manage to nab pikachu/random other pokemon ash has and he has to go get them back? I dunno. Probably would have been better to just NOT have them attack every episode. Its not like every one needed a b plot of team rocket sucking horribly at their job.

[DataNinja]

Probably would have been better to just NOT have them attack every episode. Its not like every one needed a b plot of team rocket sucking horribly at their job.

I mean, I'll admit, some of my favorite episodes that I saw were those focussing on Team Rocket where they weren't focussing on catching Pikachu or just being comic relief. Notable ones include the one where James' Chimecho gets sick, and they visit his (non-crazy) family; and the ring flying event one (okay, maybe I'm just a fan of James, but there are others... those were just the first to come to mind).

[Kitten Champion]

WARK! (Admit it, you heard the sound effect) But yeah, I admit I wish they had been a little more serious about the attempts instead of being comic relief all the time. Someone who was actually dangerous to ash rather than a royal pain and annoyance. It also didnt help how most of the conflicts served only to further make pikachu seem a god as robot after device, after trap, all designed specifically to stop pikachu, got overloaded and obliterated by pikachu who is apparently a chaos damage type in the anime since he does massive damage to everything. Though I will admit there is very little they could have done to keep jessie and james from being jokes since they try every single episode, and fail every single episode. Maybe a few arcs where they actually manage to nab pikachu/random other pokemon ash has and he has to go get them back? I dunno. Probably would have been better to just NOT have them attack every episode. Its not like every one needed a b plot of team rocket sucking horribly at their job.

The best thing about B&W's Team Rocket was that their motivation wasn't to capture Pikachu, nor were they even stalking Ash at all really. Rather, Ash and co. would choose to involve themselves in resolving the conflicts that Rocket's schemes created.

Not only does this make the heroes more proactive characters, but it allowed for the show to build up Rocket's schemes into something substantive to actually challenge them rather than just pester them slightly. Furthermore, because they weren't at behest of that formula, the show didn't necessitate having (almost) every episode's conflict revolve around them. They could have different kinds of stories where Team Rocket don't have to show up out of the ether, do their motto, and lose.

On the other hand, B&W made them a lot more villainous, as opposed to being the pathetic antiheroes that they occasionally got to be.

[Keltest]

I mean, I'll admit, some of my favorite episodes that I saw were those focussing on Team Rocket where they weren't focussing on catching Pikachu or just being comic relief. Notable ones include the one where James' Chimecho gets sick, and they visit his (non-crazy) family; and the ring flying event one (okay, maybe I'm just a fan of James, but there are others... those were just the first to come to mind).

The problem with Team Rocket is their overuse as a source of conflict. They can be interesting characters when they aren't being contrived in some situation where Pikachu can show off how OP they are for the umpteenth time. But "Team Rocket fails to capture Pikachu with some unnecessarily complicated plan" appeared as a B or C plot entirely too often.

[Bohandas]

The overarching organization is some kind of a crime syndicate. I'm not sure how Jesse and James fit in though. My suspicion is that they're useful idiots kept on to draw attention from the organization's more serious criminal enterprises.

[Lord Raziere]

The problem with Team Rocket is their overuse as a source of conflict. They can be interesting characters when they aren't being contrived in some situation where Pikachu can show off how OP they are for the umpteenth time. But "Team Rocket fails to capture Pikachu with some unnecessarily complicated plan" appeared as a B or C plot entirely too often.

You mean literally every single episode aside from the rare exceptions they were not.

Trust me I've watched up to like early Sinnoh. the number of episodes where they DON'T try to capture pikachu are few are far between.

like I'm up to like, early Sinnoh and here is the number of times I've counted Team Rocket blasting off:

Blastoff Counter: 498

That is at least, 498 episodes where they blast off, and sometimes, they blasted off twice in one episode. and thats not going though ALL of Sinnoh, or Unova, or Kalos or Alola.

you can fit entire animes into that amount of time, and I haven't counted them all yet. Dragon Ball Z? 153 episodes. yup, Team Rocket has has been doing this for more episodes than DBZ's entire run time. I'm sure that if I got around to watching through Pokemon once more, I could get even higher. I'm sure that if I finished pokemon to the current episode, the blastoff counter would pass one thousand.

[Kantaki]

You mean literally every single episode aside from the rare exceptions they were not.

Trust me I've watched up to like early Sinnoh. the number of episodes where they DON'T try to capture pikachu are few are far between.

like I'm up to like, early Sinnoh and here is the number of times I've counted Team Rocket blasting off:

Blastoff Counter: 498

That is at least, 498 episodes where they blast off, and sometimes, they blasted off twice in one episode. and thats not going though ALL of Sinnoh, or Unova, or Kalos or Alola.

you can fit entire animes into that amount of time, and I haven't counted them all yet. Dragon Ball Z? 153 episodes. yup, Team Rocket has has been doing this for more episodes than DBZ's entire run time. I'm sure that if I got around to watching through Pokemon once more, I could get even higher. I'm sure that if I finished pokemon to the current episode, the blastoff counter would pass one thousand.

Well, technicality they aren't blasting off anymore in Alola.
Instead they're abducted by Bewear.
Sometimes even when they're close to winning for once.
Or didn't even get near the twerps.:smallsigh:

[Forum Explorer]

My daughter started watching Pokemon, the original from about 20 years ago. When Team Rocket did their intro, it caught as a pretty intriguing philosophy.

To protect the world from devastation
To unit all peoples within our nation
To denounce the evils of truth and love
To extend our reach to the stars above

This makes sense if the higher-ups of Team Rocket have sensed some calamity, or just foresee earth no longer being inhabitable, and so they are gathering resources (Pokemon) in order to force a coalition to move off-world. They reject concepts of good and evil, hence denouncing the 'evils of truth and love.'

In a lot of ways, it sounds similar to the bad humans in C. S. Lewis' space trilogy.

Does the manga or anime ever go into the actual motivations of Team Rocket, and are they similar to their motto... or is the motto just some coolish-sounding gibberish to say "we're the bad guys"?

Note: I'm asking about the organization as a whole,
not Jessie and James themselves

The Manga has a really different and actually kinda dumb motto.

Raid On the City, Knock Out, Evil Tusks

Yeah, that's the motto, or rather the acronym for their name. It's really dumb.


As for Team Rocket's competency, I remember quite a few episodes where they've successfully stolen dozens of pokemon, but then they go for Pickachu who blows them up and sets everyone free.

[Aotrs Commander]

The problem with them trying to make Team Rocket competant in BW was that it made them EVEN MORE dull and insipid than they are normally. I thought that, as I had never liked Team Rocket and have always considered them to be by far the weakest element in the anime (not least because of the lazy over-use), seeing them display competance would be better. It was so, so SO not. Within the span of about two episodes, I already wanted to see the idiot Team Rocket back, because at least they still had personalities (loathsome though some of them are, Jessie, yes, I do mean you, the weakest link in a weak link). The only positive I can say was that they did not show up every episode.

BW was a low point in the series - I'm not sure I can say it was as low as the wasteland of filler than marked early Jotho, since I haven't watched that since I last watched it when I got the DVDs, especially notable after coming after Sinnoh, which I think is very arguably the series' best arc (marred only by the last-minute hax of Tobias - but even that was a sort of back-handed compliment).

One of the stronger points of XY has been that they don't appear every episode (many, perhaps most, but not every).

I can't speak to Alola, since I have not got as far as that (and frankly, the art-style, the truly inane decision to have all of the past twenty years be a single year which is categorically impossible1 have rather put me off again)



1Neither the MST3K mantra nor "Pokémon world years are longer than human years" is a defense.

In particular, the latter means that Ash was NEVER actually ten, but [ten x actual number of days passed since start of series] Wherein this equals at least 1 day per episode (935 to that point - remember virtually every episode ends with them walking off into the sunset - plus offscreen time plus episodes which explicitly have more than one day, so very possible maybe double that (I don't think anyone wants to or has the time to go through and do a day count over nearly a thousand episodes to get an exact count), but let's low-ball it and call it three years (1095 days - though it would seem more likely that it is closer to one year per region) for simplicity. So Ash would started the series at effective age 30 and Professor Oak would already older than the oldest recorded human. And all humans in the Pokémon world are thus also by normal standards, suffering from the actual, genuinue, collective learning difficulties often ascribed to Elves when it is claimed they mature much slower than humans (and not just Ash, whom you could sometimes (BW) and sometimes not (XY) make that a genuinue arguement for). Anyone buy that?

(Yes, this annoys the unliving frack out of me. Can you tell?)

[Talion]

My daughter started watching Pokemon, the original from about 20 years ago. When Team Rocket did their intro, it caught as a pretty intriguing philosophy.

To protect the world from devastation
To unit all peoples within our nation
To denounce the evils of truth and love
To extend our reach to the stars above

This makes sense if the higher-ups of Team Rocket have sensed some calamity, or just foresee earth no longer being inhabitable, and so they are gathering resources (Pokemon) in order to force a coalition to move off-world. They reject concepts of good and evil, hence denouncing the 'evils of truth and love.'

In a lot of ways, it sounds similar to the bad humans in C. S. Lewis' space trilogy.

Does the manga or anime ever go into the actual motivations of Team Rocket, and are they similar to their motto... or is the motto just some coolish-sounding gibberish to say "we're the bad guys"?

Note: I'm asking about the organization as a whole,
not Jessie and James themselves

I haven't read the Adventures Manga, though in my wiki walking I did stumble across some references to it that intrigued me. This included things like some of the gym leaders being covert members of Team Rocket (or former members in the case of Blaine). However, there is one particular incident that I remember that does touch on that theory.

Sometime during the manga's Gold/Silver/Crystal arc, the Rocket Executives actually manage to enact a plan to capture Arceus (the literal god pokemon) at the Ruins of Alph and use it to create/revive Giratina, Dialga, and Palkia, with the intent to use them as an incentive to get Giovanni to return as their leader. Giovanni, having been alerted to this, arrives with Pyrce and Lance, and proceeds to chew them out for doing something so mindbogglingly stupid, shortsighted, and, most importantly, dangerous. (As you said, you can't exactly rule the world if there is no world to rule).

Naturally, they lose control over the beasts and Giovanni et al have to battle them to a standstill to prevent the world from being unmade. That being said, Giovanni managed to use his son's Ursaring to fight Giratine to surprising effect, until he collapsed from the debilitating disease that he (and Blaine) caught after Mewtwo was created and went rogue. I don't remember quite how it ended, but the world wasn't destroyed, and Celebi arrived with a cure for Giovanni, who announced his plans to punish the executives for their actions and return to Team Rocket.

So, yeah, the ultimate goal would be global domination, and the organization proper is capable of some messed up things (see also Zapmolcuno from the same manga series). But their better leaders (IE Giovanni) do recognize the need for restraint and, frankly, some measure of sanity so they don't accidentally start the end of times.

[Rater202]

My interpretation of Team Rocket, based on how they act, how they seem more competent when doing legitimate legal work andhelping the good guys, backstory indications(Early seasons indicate that Jessie used to run with a gang of bikers and had some... family issues, while later ones show that James came from a Rich family butit was really only his "Nana and Poppop" who actually cared about him and he ran away from home to escape an arranged marriage.)

My read is that they're less hardcore criminals and more that they joined the Organization out of teenaged rebellion that they never really grew out of and they're both too stuborn to admit that it was a bad idea and they suck at it.

(Of note: James especially is good at catching wild Pokemon who love him because he's good to them, the way actual legitimate trainers do, and in the first series Ekans and Koffing evolved into Arbok and Weezing, not from battle experiance, but becuase they loved Jessie and James. They'd probably be happier and more successful as just regular Pokemon trainers.)

[Aotrs Commander]

My interpretation of Team Rocket, based on how they act, how they seem more competent when doing legitimate legal work andhelping the good guys, backstory indications(Early seasons indicate that Jessie used to run with a gang of bikers and had some... family issues, while later ones show that James came from a Rich family butit was really only his "Nana and Poppop" who actually cared about him and he ran away from home to escape an arranged marriage.)

My read is that they're less hardcore criminals and more that they joined the Organization out of teenaged rebellion that they never really grew out of and they're both too stuborn to admit that it was a bad idea and they suck at it.

(Of note: James especially is good at catching wild Pokemon who love him because he's good to them, the way actual legitimate trainers do, and in the first series Ekans and Koffing evolved into Arbok and Weezing, not from battle experiance, but becuase they loved Jessie and James. They'd probably be happier and more successful as just regular Pokemon trainers.)

James, as had been proven repeatedly on occasion over the course of the series, is actually a legitimately good Pokémon trainer when the drag of the others doesn't hold him back. (Out of them, he is the only one I remotely have any time for.)

And, to be fair - though it pains me to give her even any distant credit - Jessie is actually well-suited to and competant at contests and showcases (though the less said about the latter, the better honestly); it's about the only place where her unbrideled narcissim actually can be directed to work somewhat to her advantage.

[deuterio12]

Actually, your exactly right, that IS the only reason they kept being Team Rocket members.

Until in Hoenn when they were just kicked out entirely. for an entire region they were basically on their own.

Then let back in later after that, still as losers. Giovanni didn't even remember their names, and didn't know who they were when they came back.

I remember Jesse actually being the runaway main heir of some really rich noble family (like even the family's growlithe gets a giant mansion all for himself) which would explain why Giovanni keeps him around.

I also remember one episode where Jesse & James manage to steal Togepi and bring it to Giovanni, only for the boss to go "what the hell am I even supposed to do with that egg thingy? Get out of my sight!":smallbiggrin:

[Peelee]

I remember Jesse actually being the runaway main heir of some really rich noble family (like even the family's growlithe gets a giant mansion all for himself) which would explain why Giovanni keeps him around.

James, not Jesse.

Also, I'm glad a lot of people like James. I really liked that, even with the lazy writing of having them always hassle the twerp, lose, and blast off again, they gave Jesse, James, and Meowth actual characterization. James in particular.

[JadedDM]

Nyarth: Something like that!

That's actually a much funnier line than, "Meowth, that's right!" They should have kept that in the English dub.

[Bohandas]

I'm pretty sure the motto is just because Jesse and James think it sounds cool

[Lord Raziere]

Yeah, James is basically Brock if his flaw was being a petty annoying criminal rather than being an annoying flirt. Jesse is basically every contest girl co-star if they were narcissistic and willing to cheat, and Meowth is a foil to every pokemon by being one who focused on talking rather than fighting. Ironically they'd make it much bigger if they just went legit and and like gave the discovery of Meowth to Prof Oak, that pokemon can just learn to speak human like any other language is an astounding discovery. Meowth could probably make a killing by giving lessons, and given how many problems in pokemon world are seemingly caused or perpetuated by pokemon not communicating with humans all that well, more pokemon going around being translators would be only to everyone's benefit. like there are a bunch of times where Meowth just straight up translates the pokemon of the week for Ash so that they know what to do.

really, at this point it would make more sense if Jesse and James just gave up after the first few tries in Kanto and joined Ash on his journeys instead of Brock and Misty, because at this point, Team Rocket is a more consistent traveling companion to him than either of them.

[deuterio12]

really, at this point it would make more sense if Jesse and James just gave up after the first few tries in Kanto and joined Ash on his journeys instead of Brock and Misty, because at this point, Team Rocket is a more consistent traveling companion to him than either of them.

Good point, Jesse and James succeeded in lasting as long as Ash himself. That goes to show just how popular they are, that they haven't been axed of the show yet.

But see, what Jesse and James really enjoy is being the bad guys/anti-heroes. They just love making those dramatic entrances and crazy schemes and just wouldn't be the same thing if they just teamed up with Ash trying to settle for an honest job. Again, James could quit at any moment and return to his rich noble family to enjoy the high life (thanks Peelee!), but he'll rather live in the road and outside the law.

Plus it's basically explicit they're in love (James gets Jesse pregnant in the ending of one of the mangas), so one could say the whole thing is just a really loooonnnnng date where they can enjoy each other's company. Even blasting off is fun when you're doing it with your special one!

[Traab]

As far as poke translators go, doesnt ash do a fairly good job of understanding pikachu when its trying to tell him something? Its been awhile but im fairly sure on several occasions they were basically able to hold more or less full conversations on something important pikachu wanted to talk about. Im not saying it wouldnt be much handier to train pokemon to speak english, but its not as vital as it might seem when trainers who have a strong bond with their pokemon can already basically communicate complex emotional conversations with each other.

[Rater202]

But see, what Jesse and James really enjoy is being the bad guys/anti-heroes. They just love making those dramatic entrances and crazy schemes and just wouldn't be the same thing if they just teamed up with Ash trying to settle for an honest job. Again, James could quit at any moment and return to his rich noble family to enjoy the high life (thanks Peelee!), but he'll rather live in the road and outside the law.

James has a psychotic fiance from that arranged marriage he was forced into. That's probably more than n=enough reason to not go home.

[deuterio12]

James has a psychotic fiance from that arranged marriage he was forced into. That's probably more than n=enough reason to not go home.

I believe the reasons are related. I would say that Jessebelle is more bossy than exactly psychotic, and James just doesn't want to live under any kind of strict law.

After all Jesse isn't exactly mentally sane either and looks just like Jessebelle, but Jesse gives James a lot more freedom. And being whipped and paralyzed with stun spores can't really be any worst than being electrified by pikachu's electricity and blasted away in an almost daily basis.:smalltongue:

[Kantaki]

But see, what Jesse and James really enjoy is being the bad guys/anti-heroes. They just love making those dramatic entrances and crazy schemes and just wouldn't be the same thing if they just teamed up with Ash trying to settle for an honest job. Again, James could quit at any moment and return to his rich noble family to enjoy the high life (thanks Peelee!), but he'll rather live in the road and outside the law.

You know, maybe they should try their luck as superheroes.
They would probably do quite well and they get to make their dramatic entry.:smallamused:

[137beth]

Nope. Never does into their motivations. In fact, Cassidy and Butch, a supposedly more successful duo in Team Rocket have an almost completely different motto:

Cassidy: Prepare for trouble...
Butch: ...and make it double!
Both: Here's our mission, so you better listen!
Cassidy: To infect the world with devastation!
Butch: To blight all people in every nation!
Cassidy: To denounce the goodness of truth and love!
Butch: To extend our wrath to the stars above!
Cassidy: Cassidy!
Butch: And Butch, of course!
Cassidy: We're Team Rocket, circling Earth all day and night.
Butch: Surrender to us now or you will surely lose the fight!

So yeah, its just something they say for style points.
For some reason I always found it hilarious that the supposed "Team Rocket Motto" is really just a Team Jesse and James Motto. And Meowth.

[The Glyphstone]

Who recruited or hired them to Team Rocket anyways? Considering how bad they are at everything from thievery to following corporate dress code.

[Kantaki]

Who recruited or hired them to Team Rocket anyways? Considering how bad they are at everything from thievery to following corporate dress code.

Considering they once were (almost) kicked out because they didn't pay their membership fees?
Probably someone who cared more about making money than about the competence of the people they recruited.

[137beth]

As far as poke translators go, doesnt ash do a fairly good job of understanding pikachu when its trying to tell him something? Its been awhile but im fairly sure on several occasions they were basically able to hold more or less full conversations on something important pikachu wanted to talk about. Im not saying it wouldnt be much handier to train pokemon to speak english, but its not as vital as it might seem when trainers who have a strong bond with their pokemon can already basically communicate complex emotional conversations with each other.

Can Pokémon who can speak human languages translate for other Pokémon or is that just the psychic ones? I remember Mewtwo translating for Pikachu but I don’t remember if any other Pokémon can translate.

[Keltest]

Can Pokémon who can speak human languages translate for other Pokémon or is that just the psychic ones? I remember Mewtwo translating for Pikachu but I don’t remember if any other Pokémon can translate.

AFAIK all Pokémon can understand each other to a greater degree than humans. Meowth translates for various pokemon a few times, usually when theyre in a mutual crisis.

[DataNinja]

AFAIK all Pokémon can understand each other to a greater degree than humans. Meowth translates for various pokemon a few times, usually when theyre in a mutual crisis.

Generally, when it's a group of Pokémon, with no humans around, the conversation ends up being along the lines of echoing the sentence. "Poké! PokéSpeak!" "What? You say you're lost, and you're trying to find your way back? And that you've got a buddy trapped under a tree?" I don't recall any instances where it actually has to translate for other 'mon, but, then again, I've not seen every episode.

[Lord Raziere]

Who recruited or hired them to Team Rocket anyways? Considering how bad they are at everything from thievery to following corporate dress code.

there was an episode about them int heir training days of Team Rocket in Pokemon Chronicles.

Lets look up what I wrote about it in my lets watch of that:

they actually had to go through training exercises, the same that Cassidy and Biff did, because the two teams trained like, right next to each other. the entire episode is basically how each Team Rocket member of our lovable trio has to adjust to working together: James is a lot more confident and calm, Meowth outright lies about how experienced he is, and Jessie was constantly losing partners before them and doesn't work well with anyone, while James is the one who tries to sacrifice himself so that the other two can move on with the training mission, and this causes them to work together, and both teams pass doing some thing involving infiltration.

From what I can tell, their training wasn't about straight up pokemon battles but a lot of obstacle and security bypassing sort of stuff. they were made to be thieves, not criminal soldiers. which basically means every time they battle in a straight up fight they're not applying their training because they were never trained to straight up fight, they were trained to go through buildings, crawling through vents and generally being sneaky and bypassing security. they are NOT meant to fight. though to be fair, they constantly try to get away from Ash after taking pikachu or otherwise try to lie to get their pokemon without them knowing, its just that most of their ways of doing so are cartoonish.

like there is at least one episode in Johto where they like, do a thing to steal pokeballs from a pokemon center by making them think they've been transferred, and they do some pokeball switching scam every once in a while to try and get a bunch of non-Ash pokemon, but they have no excuse when being out in the wilderness and and having nothing to get away from Ash with but their toughness and pokemon. In short, between their disguises, infiltration expertise, their great salesmanship to the point where they can fool almost anyone into buying into their scams, their willingness to basically do any minor job that pays, Team Rocket should stick to the cities to just con people out of their pokemon, because thats where they work best. every time they go into their wilderness they get hungry because they don't know how to manage food or gather it from the surroundings, which says to me that none of them are outdoorsy, particularly since Meowth's backstory episode is all about him growing up in a big city, James backstory is that he is a rich kid, while Jessie was straight up poor and desires to be rich to have the finer things in life, and tried to take nurse classes or take part in contests.

So yeah, Team Rocket kind of shoots themselves in the foot by following Ash around, simply because a lot of the time they get thrown out of their element in the woods and such without a Brock-like figure to help them, when they are clearly some weird trio of social wizards who can somehow convince anyone of anything, fool anyone with their disguises, somehow keep having the connections to buy inventions from people they seem to get all this stuff from, and sell anything to raise money in record time wen they go legit. seriously, the number of inventions they just somehow have out of nowhere borders on Batman levels of "where did they get even this? why would someone even design this? how did they know to prepare for this?" its why I theorize that Team Rocket-specifically Jessie, James and Meowth, no one else- are somehow warping reality.

[JadedDM]

the same that Cassidy and Biff
https://78.media.tumblr.com/11a40e0edc1cac9213e82e12978ede4d/tumblr_nlnrnrKNTZ1uny452o1_500.gif

[deuterio12]

From what I can tell, their training wasn't about straight up pokemon battles but a lot of obstacle and security bypassing sort of stuff. they were made to be thieves, not criminal soldiers. which basically means every time they battle in a straight up fight they're not applying their training because they were never trained to straight up fight, they were trained to go through buildings, crawling through vents and generally being sneaky and bypassing security. they are NOT meant to fight. though to be fair, they constantly try to get away from Ash after taking pikachu or otherwise try to lie to get their pokemon without them knowing, its just that most of their ways of doing so are cartoonish.

Yet Jesse and james have been known to bring actual rocket launchers to a pokemon fight multiple times (I recall at least once against Brock's onyx and again in the rock gym cave where they just decide to bring the house down) not to mention the occasional mecha. That's kinda the opposite of sneaky thief if you ask me.



like there is at least one episode in Johto where they like, do a thing to steal pokeballs from a pokemon center by making them think they've been transferred, and they do some pokeball switching scam every once in a while to try and get a bunch of non-Ash pokemon, but they have no excuse when being out in the wilderness and and having nothing to get away from Ash with but their toughness and pokemon. In short, between their disguises, infiltration expertise, their great salesmanship to the point where they can fool almost anyone into buying into their scams, their willingness to basically do any minor job that pays, Team Rocket should stick to the cities to just con people out of their pokemon, because thats where they work best. every time they go into their wilderness they get hungry because they don't know how to manage food or gather it from the surroundings, which says to me that none of them are outdoorsy, particularly since Meowth's backstory episode is all about him growing up in a big city, James backstory is that he is a rich kid, while Jessie was straight up poor and desires to be rich to have the finer things in life, and tried to take nurse classes or take part in contests.

Although I'll agree that they're quite good at disguises and scams, James at least is quite vulnerable to those too, as I recall him wasting all the team's money once to buy a magikarp in the S.S Anne.

So I would say the reason why they end in the wilderness hungry may be precisely because whenever they try to do their "business" in the city they just end up being outsmarted by another scammer and end up thrown out in the wild because they can't afford any place to stay anymore.

Or maybe they're that obsessed with catching pikachu.



So yeah, Team Rocket kind of shoots themselves in the foot by following Ash around, simply because a lot of the time they get thrown out of their element in the woods and such without a Brock-like figure to help them, when they are clearly some weird trio of social wizards who can somehow convince anyone of anything, fool anyone with their disguises, somehow keep having the connections to buy inventions from people they seem to get all this stuff from, and sell anything to raise money in record time wen they go legit. seriously, the number of inventions they just somehow have out of nowhere borders on Batman levels of "where did they get even this? why would someone even design this? how did they know to prepare for this?" its why I theorize that Team Rocket-specifically Jessie, James and Meowth, no one else- are somehow warping reality.

Yeah, sounds more like an obsession by now. By the hardware they've spent alone, there's no way a non-shiny pikachu could ever recover Jesse and James investment in stalking Ash. But they just keep going. They're addicted by now, it's their life's purpose.

Maybe they do run successful scams in the cities and/or they do honest jobs well in the background, but when Ash and friends start moving to the next location, Jesse and James just can't stop themselves from pursuing after them, blowing up their gathered funds in more disguises/gadgets/mechas/etc.:smallbiggrin:

Kinda like gladiators in ancient Rome sometimes achieved freedom and fortune, yet ended up returning to the arena out of their own will for the adrenaline and thrills and basking in the audience's cheers.

[Bohandas]

To be fair it's implied that Ash's pikachu has maximum IVs

[The Glyphstone]

To be fair it's implied that Ash's pikachu has maximum IVs

I think at this point Ash's Pikachu just got a few runs through the GameShark.

[Peelee]

I think at this point Ash's Pikachu just got a few runs through the GameShark.

Gameshark? Look here, Rich Uncle Pennybags, if the Game Genie was good enough for my NES, and it's good enough for Pikachu.

[Frozen_Feet]

In the games, Team Rocket does not seem to have a coherent philosophy, and this is deliberate

It is implied in the Pokemon Red/Green/Blue that Giovanni, the leader of the Team, originally had the same goals as the protagonist, which can be summed up as "Gotta Catch 'em All" and "I wanna be the very best!" He just lost his way and fell into crime in the pursuit. When he's last seen, he says he's refound the joy of doing things honestly and goes on a journey to realize his dream, quitting Team Rocket.

In Pokemon Gold/Silver, Team Rocket is in crisis due to lack of leadership and are doing their everything to get Giovanni to return. So their motive is desire for a succesfull criminal syndicate combined with idolization of their former boss, because they missed the memo that life of crime isn't satisfying. When Giovanni doesn't return, the entire thing falls through.

So, Team Rocket gets disbanded because even the people leading it do not see the point.

[Peelee]

In the games, Team Rocket does not seem to have a coherent philosophy, and this is deliberate

It is implied in the Pokemon Red/Green/Blue that Giovanni, the leader of the Team, originally had the same goals as the protagonist, which can be summed up as "Gotta Catch 'em All" and "I wanna be the very best!" He just lost his way and fell into crime in the pursuit. When he's last seen, he says he's refound the joy of doing things honestly and goes on a journey to realize his dream, quitting Team Rocket.

I never quite got why he was a gym leader, though.

[Rater202]

I never quite got why he was a gym leader, though.

A position of power and/or a front for something.

If you remember, nobody knows who the Veridian City Gym Leader is until after you confront him.

There's that guy who apparently runs around to every gym to meet you, calls you a rising star, and when ou talk tohim after beating Giovanni for the last time, he's all like, "What, the myestious Gym Leaderwas the leader fo Team Rocket!?"

Recruitment from the strongest trainers in the Gym is also a possibility.

[Frozen_Feet]

It's implied Giovanni became a Gym leader in his pursuit to become the strongest trainer, but then it fell to the wayside as he focused on his criminal enterprise. That's why he's never around.

IIRC after the plan to overtake Silph Co. fails, Giovanni retreats back to the gym with the idea that he'll start from ground up again and possibly recruit new people from those who attend his gym. So it's also a backup plan, the place where it all started, and the place where it ends.

[deuterio12]

In Pokemon Gold/Silver, Team Rocket is in crisis due to lack of leadership and are doing their everything to get Giovanni to return. So their motive is desire for a succesfull criminal syndicate combined with idolization of their former boss, because they missed the memo that life of crime isn't satisfying. When Giovanni doesn't return, the entire thing falls through.

So, Team Rocket gets disbanded because even the people leading it do not see the point.

In one of the later games there's a time traveling mission where you go back to Gold/Silver's time and turns out Giovanni was actually inspired to return to lead to team rocket by his previous minion's actions and was getting ready to meet them. Then you curbstomp him, and being beaten by some new random kid basically makes Giovanni lose his motivation again. "Getting too old for this".

And now in Sun/Moon we get team Rainbow Rocket where alternate reality Giovanni managed to rally all other pokemon villians in one criminal organization.

[Peelee]

In one of the later games there's a time traveling mission where you go back to Gold/Silver's time and turns out Giovanni was actually inspired to return to lead to team rocket by his previous minion's actions and was getting ready to meet them. Then you curbstomp him, and being beaten by some new random kid basically makes Giovanni lose his motivation again. "Getting too old for this".

And now in Sun/Moon we get team Rainbow Rocket where alternate reality Giovanni managed to rally all other pokemon villians in one criminal organization.

I just beat the damnable Moon (got so infuriated with it I have up for a bit), and I don't remember Rainbow Rocket. That sounds almost worth picking it back up.

Of course, finding Silver in the store makes"almost" even more of a qualifier. I'm fighting the Kimono girls again! Ah, memories.

[DataNinja]

I just beat the damnable Moon (got so infuriated with it I have up for a bit), and I don't remember Rainbow Rocket. That sounds almost worth picking it back up.

It's in the Ultras only, after the main story, I'm afraid. The standard games won't help in that regard.

[Peelee]

It's in the Ultras only, after the main story, I'm afraid. The standard games won't help in that regard.

Are the Ultras more game than cutscene?

[DataNinja]

Are the Ultras more game than cutscene?

There's... roughly the same amount of cutscene, but I think that it all flows better this time, for the most part. My personal opinion with the Ultras is that they fixed a lot of problems (no, I am not going to get over the Battle Royale throwing postgame stuff at you with no warning) and added to missed opportunities from the first games, but then made the same mistakes in other portions - there's so much more that I wish they'd done with certain parts of the game.

It's extremely subjective, I feel, whether it's worth it to get the new games. On the one hand, there's a lot more optional sidequest-y things, things are filled out better, and so forth... on the other, it's still (especially for the first part of the game) much of the same game. So, I wouldn't say that it's a must-buy, but I also don't think that it's entirely pointless to get it. I had a lot of fun with it. If you're ever planning to play through the game again, then I'd recommend doing the Ultras instead. I know this isn't exactly helpful, but... it's the best I can do, since I can't really definitively recommend one way or the other.

More tangentially, they did seem to up the difficulty a fair bit. I actually party wiped - using the EXP Share, even - a few times over the course of the game, which is something that hadn't happened to me in much of the modern generations.

[137beth]

A position of power and/or a front for something.

If you remember, nobody knows who the Veridian City Gym Leader is until after you confront him.

There's that guy who apparently runs around to every gym to meet you, calls you a rising star, and when ou talk tohim after beating Giovanni for the last time, he's all like, "What, the myestious Gym Leaderwas the leader fo Team Rocket!?"

Recruitment from the strongest trainers in the Gym is also a possibility.
However, the sign on the outside of the door says that the leader is Giovanni, and apparently the guy who tells you who all the gym leaders are forgot to read it. (This might have been fixed in the remakes, I don’t remember, so I’m going by Red/Blue).

[Mith]

I just had an amusing idea that is in no way related to the actual plot, and can't be forced into it. It would make a good alternate story.

Part of Team Rocket's MO is to hire up and coming trainers, with most gyms being a front. Even if a leader doesn't pay membership, they probably pay protection fees since Team Rocket has more resources then any one leader. They haven't gone into open power yet because the regular populace could cause major problems in an uprising.

Jesse, James, and Meowth ended up becoming members to get away from bad circumstances. Meowth is interesting in that he is basically a Wild Pokemon that decided to sign up. I would say that all 3 of the members are really good at what they do except for straight on battling. The usual MO is money, intelligence, blackmail, and surprise attacks.

However, by the time the series starts, they are disillusioned with Team Rocket when they encounter Ash. Now Ash has some quality about him (can't remember if it is ever explicitly quantified), that makes him really good with taming Pokemon as friends, more so then James. Meowth picks up on this, and they decide that Ash shouldn't fall into Giovanni's hands. So they file to be the team that follows Ash around, and they essentially provide a smokescreen that keeps Ash from actually having to deal with Team Rocket. They keep up the silly antics as a way to also give Ash some constant battle experience to grow and potentially be a force to break Team Rocket.

[Peelee]

There's... roughly the same amount of cutscene, but I think that it all flows better this time, for the most part. My personal opinion with the Ultras is that they fixed a lot of problems (no, I am not going to get over the Battle Royale throwing postgame stuff at you with no warning) and added to missed opportunities from the first games, but then made the same mistakes in other portions - there's so much more that I wish they'd done with certain parts of the game.

It's extremely subjective, I feel, whether it's worth it to get the new games. On the one hand, there's a lot more optional sidequest-y things, things are filled out better, and so forth... on the other, it's still (especially for the first part of the game) much of the same game. So, I wouldn't say that it's a must-buy, but I also don't think that it's entirely pointless to get it. I had a lot of fun with it. If you're ever planning to play through the game again, then I'd recommend doing the Ultras instead. I know this isn't exactly helpful, but... it's the best I can do, since I can't really definitively recommend one way or the other.

More tangentially, they did seem to up the difficulty a fair bit. I actually party wiped - using the EXP Share, even - a few times over the course of the game, which is something that hadn't happened to me in much of the modern generations.

That actually makes me want to play it. Getting it isn't an issue, one of my wife's friends got it for me for Christmas. He knows my general interests, but not specific (such as that I love Pokemon games, but disliked Moon), but it was really sweet of him and I don't fault him at all for that (I'm a big believer in "it's the thought that counts"). The ramped up difficulty especially sounds nice, since every gen has been getting slightly easier and now we've hit the current "we even tell you what moves are not very/super/effective."

[DataNinja]

That actually makes me want to play it. Getting it isn't an issue, one of my wife's friends got it for me for Christmas. He knows my general interests, but not specific (such as that I love Pokemon games, but disliked Moon), but it was really sweet of him and I don't fault him at all for that (I'm a big believer in "it's the thought that counts"). The ramped up difficulty especially sounds nice, since every gen has been getting slightly easier and now we've hit the current "we even tell you what moves are not very/super/effective."

If you have it, I at least recommend giving it a shot. Different Pokémon are available in each area than the previous games (for example, Inkay can be found near the prof's lab). I also think they handle characterization better this time, though a warning that it's basically unrelated to the last games - Ultra Space and everything is all known about from the beginning (which I found rather jarring after the Moon Postgame), and sometimes characters seem to know things that Gamefreak assumes the players would already have figured out, but really shouldn't know in game. (Though, this was probably mostly an issue for me, because I went in blind, and so actually expected a sequel...)

But, yeah. The difficulty is definitely higher, and if you stick with the same team throughout, I guarantee you'll probably run into at least an handful of battles that give you trouble. (Especially if you have Set Battle on, rather than Shift.)

[Durkoala]

If you have it, I at least recommend giving it a shot. Different Pokémon are available in each area than the previous games (for example, Inkay can be found near the prof's lab). I also think they handle characterization better this time, though a warning that it's basically unrelated to the last games - Ultra Space and everything is all known about from the beginning (which I found rather jarring after the Moon Postgame), and sometimes characters seem to know things that Gamefreak assumes the players would already have figured out, but really shouldn't know in game. (Though, this was probably mostly an issue for me, because I went in blind, and so actually expected a sequel...)

But, yeah. The difficulty is definitely higher, and if you stick with the same team throughout, I guarantee you'll probably run into at least an handful of battles that give you trouble. (Especially if you have Set Battle on, rather than Shift.)

Do you need to have played Sun/Moon first or can you pick it up and play it without knowing them?

[DataNinja]

Do you need to have played Sun/Moon first or can you pick it up and play it without knowing them?

The game makes a couple assumptions on the part of the player having played the first games (mainly on the nature of Ultra Beasts and ultra Space, which are discussed openly as if the player would pretty much know what they are), but, on the whole, there is no need to play the first games. So, there might be a few little things, but it's essentially a completely self-contained thing.

[Peelee]

The game makes a couple assumptions on the part of the player having played the first games (mainly on the nature of Ultra Beasts and ultra Space, which are discussed openly as if the player would pretty much know what they are)

Frankly, I played through the first game and still don't really know what Ultra Beasts and Ultra Space is, so I think that's pretty safe. Didn't help that I'd kind of zoned out by that point, since I didn't expect to watch a full-length movie

[Rater202]

Frankly, I played through the first game and still don't really know what Ultra Beasts and Ultra Space is, so I think that's pretty safe. Didn't help that I'd kind of zoned out by that point, since I didn't expect to watch a full-length movie

Pokemon from an AU world and the AU world, respectivly. One that has differant reality from the timelines the Pokemon Games have been in, resulting in Pokemon who really only tangenitally resemble the main realities Pokemon.

[McNum]

I like the take Saphroneth took in Ashes of the Past (https://www.fanfiction.net/s/7262793/1/Ashes-of-the-Past). (It's fanfic, but really, really good fanfic.) Basically, Giovanni does want to "protect the world from devastation," inasmuch as, in order to take control of the world, there needs to be one. So he sees part of the organization's goal as preventing major global threats, a serious concern when there are monster-gods roaming the planet and upheaving entire ecosystems. Here's a quote:



I like that interpretation, personally.


Like a lot of that story (and I VERY DEFINITELY second the recommendation), it's a really good idea.
Thanks for the recommendation. That's a pretty good fic. I mean, I started reading it when those posts there were new and just reached Hoenn 1. I would have stopped sooner if I didn't like it, I think.

Favorite moment so far: Ash finally meets an Absol. That poor, poor Absol.