Developing my DMM cleric

[Jarob22]

Hello all!

A while ago I came here asking for a little help to build my cleric, and I decided on a DMM cleric build. I've been levelling a bit since then and I think I need a little direction on where to go next. Some stats:

Level: 4
str:14/dex:14/con:14/int:16/wis:14/cha:16
Classes: Cleric 4
Feats taken: Turn/Rebuke earth
destroy undead (R2R) swapped this in for turn undead
Extend spell
persist spell
DMM: persist spell

Turning attempts: 16 (both turn pools + reliquary)
Gold: 1300

I feel like I'm slipping behind in terms of turn attempts - I'd not been hitting the right skills to get sacred exorcist which I'm trying to rectify now, and I haven't as yet been brought below 0 hp so I don't quality for death delver (though I could get a party member to do that for me if I really wanted, so its not out of the question). Are there some other prestige/normal classes I could target to improve myself in this build until I'm eligible for SE/DD?

Also, quick question, does the DD/SE turn and rebuke stack with my destroy and earth turning to give 4 pools? I've been reading about them possibly not stacking, and I'd like to get this cleared up.

I'll be taking extra turning as soon as I can. Not sure whether I should take this more than once, definitely a possibility.

Sorry if that was a bit rambling. tl;dr - I'm at lvl 4, I seem to be a bit behind on turning attempts, any ideas other than what I've listed above to help my build along would be awesome.

[skunk3]

Wait a minute... if you take feats to be able to turn/rebuke something other than undead, do you get a whole new pool that you can use for anything that requires one use of a turn attempt? I was under the impression that you don't get separate pools, but rather just one that you can use towards whatever you can. I only have 7 turn attempts and my character is effectively 6th level. If so, I don't think that extra turning would apply to ALL pools. It could be interpreted that way that but would be super cheesy.

[skunk3]

Also, doesn't DMM only work from TURN UNDEAD? It seems to me that turn (anything else) wouldn't work, nor would rebuke undead. I could be totally wrong though.

[Jarob22]

Yes, you can get multiple pools, and yes, extra turning (and reliquary and any other item) adds attempts to each pool.

[skunk3]

Yes, you can get multiple pools, and yes, extra turning (and reliquary and any other item) adds attempts to each pool.

Okay, so if you can get multiple pools, the only one you can use to fuel DMM is turn undead, and which PrC can actually give you more turn undead attempts in addition to the ones you get as a Cleric? I was under the impression that those PrC's only stack in the sense of your CL for turning. Turn Earth wouldn't work for DMM. I guess you can use either turn or rebuke undead to fuel DMM but I don't exactly see how you could get pools of both without some kind of cheese involved since it's commonly accepted that rebuking undead is evil territory. I looked up extra turning and you're right, but as I said, only turn or rebuke works for DMM, and having both is kinda cheesy but whatever.

[Covenant12]

DMM specifically and repeatedly calls out turn or rebuke undead. Its difficult to have both a turn undead pool and a rebuke undead pool, but it is possible. (Looks like Death Delver PrC in this case) The most literal interpretation of extra turning or nightsticks looks like they would add to both at once, its not guaranteed and DM fiat is always possible. High op game I'd allow turn+rebuke, I still would never allow infinite nightsticks though.

I'd have to see some impressive arguments to allow turn/rebuke elemental/plant (in this case, earth) to power DMM. Again, DMM repeatedly calls out undead, not just generic turn/rebuke attempts. RAI even specifies positive/negative energy, which earth would not be.

Edit: above 4th level WBL really, but a +2 cloak of charisma is critical. With death delver this would allow two uses of DMM:Persist before extra turning.

[Anthrowhale]

Rebuke Dragons is a valid source for DMM due to specific wording in Rebuke Dragons. The standard approach I've seen is Cleric with Rebuke Dragons ACF taking a level of Sacred Exorcist for Turn Undead.

[Jarob22]

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Air_Domain the rebuke earth here seems to have almost the exact same wording as the rebuke dragons acf "Turn or destroy earth creatures as a good cleric turns undead. Rebuke, command, or bolster air creatures as an evil cleric rebukes undead" so i see no reason why it shouldn't work.

This is not a MAD game, so no, nightstick juggling will not be tolerated.

I'll work on the +2 cha cloak.

[Anthrowhale]

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Air_Domain the rebuke earth here seems to have almost the exact same wording as the rebuke dragons acf "Turn or destroy earth creatures as a good cleric turns undead. Rebuke, command, or bolster air creatures as an evil cleric rebukes undead" so i see no reason why it shouldn't work.

The key bit is:

An attempt to rebuke dragons counts as an attempt to turn or rebuke undead for the purpose of qualifying for or activating divine feats...

[Jarob22]

The key bit is:

Oh =/ so really I only have 8 attempts. I can't see much point in getting rebuke dragons if I've used the R2R destroy undead ACF, you can't use both of them I don't think?

So do you have any other class/feat ideas for getting more attempts? 8 seems pitiful. I may have to get my party to bludgeon me to 0 hp sooner rather than later so I can get death delver, and I'll be pumping knowledge: planes so I can get sacred exorcist at lvl 7 (that's the earliest I can get dismissal).

[Douglas]

As far as I know, it's not possible to get more than 3 Turn/Rebuke pools that can fuel DMM, and you're already aiming for that but need more levels to reach it.

The "standard" DMM build takes the Planning and Undeath domains, which give Extend Spell and Extra Turning as bonus feats. If your DM will allow you to switch your domains and you're willing to give up both of your current domains, that would give you Extra Turning once directly and free up the regular feat you spent on Extend Spell which you could then spend on Extra Turning again. That would get you Extra Turning twice, for +8 Turn attempts, bringing you to 16 total.

This isn't useful right now because it won't be enough to get you another use of DMM, but if you cast Eagle's Splendor on yourself the extra charisma will count for how many Turn attempts you have in each pool for as long as the spell lasts. This makes getting a Cloak of Charisma much less important.

You've ruled out stacking tons of nightsticks, but getting just one should be fine, for +4 Turn attempts per pool.

Switching your domains, getting a nightstick, and casting Eagle's Splendor would get you to 22 Destroy Undead attempts, enough for 3 uses of DMM: Persist.

[Jarob22]

Unsure whether I'll be able to do that, my domains tie in quite tightly to my god, and undeath looks quite evil, though planning may fit in.

So if I change domains and get extend spell, that automatically frees up the feat slot? Usually if you get something you already had, it just does nothing, like with spells and such.

There's no way I can afford a nightstick at the moment, but I'll get it when I can!

[Anthrowhale]

A Reliquary Holy Symbol is 1K which may be in your price range.

W.r.t. domains, the standard way to get both Undead and Planning is to not worship a specific deity so you can choose from all domains.

I'm personally skeptical about the value of Death Delver as losing a level of spell advancement is painful. For example, persisting Mass Lesser Vigor next level may be significantly more important than persisting twice as many second level spells.

[Jarob22]

Got one of those already.

Hm...is there another class I can get instead of DD that has rebuke or that I can take an ACF for, that means I get rebuke? Don't really wanna miss out on a whole pool...

I'm already dedicated to a god and I've been playing this cleric for 4 levels, can't really just abandon it now.

Also, what book is rebuke dragons ACF from?

[Anthrowhale]

Hm...is there another class I can get instead of DD that has rebuke or that I can take an ACF for, that means I get rebuke? Don't really wanna miss out on a whole pool...

I don't know another way to get rebuke on a good character.


I'm already dedicated to a god and I've been playing this cleric for 4 levels, can't really just abandon it now.
Sticking with a character concept is entirely reasonable.

Also, what book is rebuke dragons ACF from?
Dragon Magic.

It looks like Destroy Undead has the same special wording as Rebuke Dragon. There is no way to get Destroy Undead and Rebuke Dragon on the same character as you suggest since they are both ACFs for clerics trading out the same base ability. Probably, the best you could hope to do at the moment given constraints is increase to 2 persistent spells/day by freeing up one feat for extra turning and casting Eagle's Splendor as Douglas suggests.

The next move would be increasing this to 4 active spells by buying a lesser Rod of Extend Spell (3K) to turn these into Extended Persistent spells lasting 48 hours then alternating the choice of spells persisted (and extended) each day.

After that, Death Delver would work at the next level, but I'd advise against it due to compromising the quality of the spells you can persist for half of your levels up to 18.

Nightstick + another Extra Turning adds 2 extra active persistent spells around level 6 or 7 for 6 total.

Sacred Exorcist + an extra rod of extend spells adds 6 active spells at level 8 (12 total).

At level 9, using Easy Metamagic[Persisent Spell] (Dragon 325) + another rod pushes adds 2 active spells (14 total). Alternatively Extra Turning does the same.

At level 10, a friendly bard can cast Inner Beauty during your buff routine to add another 2 active spells (16 total). Alternatively, use Greater Anyspell from the Spell domain.

At level 12, using Assume Supernatural Ability[Tome Dragon Free Metamagic] (Dragon 343) acquired via a friendly spellcaster's polymorph, the Spell domain, or use of items. At the same time, a cloak of charisma+6 increase your turning pools to size 25 with Inner Beauty active. Since the cost of persisting is now 5 TUs, this means 20 total extended persistent spells.

At level 15, Extra Turning + a more potent Tome Dragon Free Metamagic means 28 total extended persistent spells.

At level 16, a friendly bard casting Snowsong means 30 total spells.

At level 17, if you can get access to the Animal Domain, you can Shapechange[Tome Dragon] directly and use Psychic Reformation to transform Supernatural Ability into Extra Turning. With an Ankh of Ascension and a Prayer Bead of Karma, you can cast Shapechange at caster level 25 immediately granting another metamagic reduction. Altogether, this implies 46 active persisted spells if you can afford all the necessary rods of extend spell.

At level 18, take Death Delver for an extra rebuke undead pool and another Extra Turning for a total of ... 78 active persistent extended spells.

None of the above assumes expenditures on inherent or level bonuses into charisma. It should be apparent that you rapidly run out of spells worth persisting on this path. Investing in ocular spell instead of an extra turning helps with this as does any method for casting off-list spells.

[Jarob22]

Wow, thank you very much for the super comprehensive answer! :D

Can you confirm that if I do swap my earth domain out for planning, that the extend spell feat I get replaces mine and I get a feat slot freed up, rather than it just doing nothing?

I've got a couple questions about what you've written out:
Do easy metamagic + free metamagic stack?
I don't see that tome dragons have psychic reformation - where are you getting this from?
I'm a little confused about "transform supernatural ability into extra turning" - by that do you mean to take the free metamagic 5th level feat (-1 to level) and transform it, still leaving me with the next level one (-2 to level)?

I think everything else makes sense. This is a fantastic guide! Thank you for your patience and help!

[Florian]

Can you confirm that if I do swap my earth domain out for planning, that the extend spell feat I get replaces mine and I get a feat slot freed up, rather than it just doing nothing?

Sorry, without full retraining, it will amount to nothing. Any "gain bonus feat" mechanic that doesn't have a "duplicate" clause will just not change anything.

[Anthrowhale]

Wow, thank you very much for the super comprehensive answer! :D

Can you confirm that if I do swap my earth domain out for planning, that the extend spell feat I get replaces mine and I get a feat slot freed up, rather than it just doing nothing?
No, but you could go visit a Psion and pay him to cast Psychic Reformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm). According to spellcasting services (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spell), the price would 780gp+100xp on your part, or 500gp more if you want to avoid paying the XP penalty. Since the cost is less than 3k gp, this is routine by default.


Do easy metamagic + free metamagic stack?

Different sources, so yes.


I don't see that tome dragons have psychic reformation - where are you getting this from?

Your friendly neighborhood Psion.


I'm a little confused about "transform supernatural ability into extra turning"
I just mean swap "Assume Supernatural Ability" for "Extra Turning" (Since you now have access to Free Metamagic via Shapechange.) Free Metamagic is a supernatural ability, not a feat.

[Jarob22]

I'm still not understanding the swapping - I'm getting assume supernatural ability from an item or another caster's spell, not a feat I've got. How does swapping help in this case?

EDIT: never mind, I can't read. 7*40 = 280 + 500 for the xp lost, and the xp is shared by both so its 200/2 = 100xp lost each.

[Jarob22]

Quick extra question - if my GM is stingy and won't let me change my domain for free, can I use psychic reformation for that too?

[Anthrowhale]

Quick extra question - if my GM is stingy and won't let me change my domain for free, can I use psychic reformation for that too?
Yes.

The cost is modest but noticeable so this is a reasonable approach to revisiting character decisions.

[Jarob22]

Awesome, thank you for clearing that all up. You're a star!

[VisitingDaGulag]

As far as I know, it's not possible to get more than 3 Turn/Rebuke pools that can fuel DMMPools is an informal, non-gaming term, but its common enough. A search for the maximum DMM-able pools reveals more far more than 3:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=%22the+max+number+of+DMMable%22+pools

[Anthrowhale]

Pools is an informal, non-gaming term, but its common enough. A search for the maximum DMM-able pools reveals more far more than 3:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=%22the+max+number+of+DMMable%22+pools

PBMC's build (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=8770.msg269758#msg269758) assumes that you can take the same class multiple times with different ACFs and that you get extra pools from the same ability granted by different classes, both of which probably would not fly at a real table. Despite that, the number of active persistent spells ends up being quite similar---it looks like he didn't know about the Tome Dragon.