How good is always-on concealment?

[chimaeraUndying]

I'm currently speccing out a Sorcerer and eyeing the Realms Beyond (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-3rd-party-publishers/kobold-press-bloodlines/realms-beyond/) bloodline largely because of the abovementioned always-on impassible concealment effect (the various types of vision are nice as well). Particularly, I intend to combine it with mirror image to make my sorc as frustrating to actually connect attacks to as possible.

The rest of the bloodline kinda... doesn't seem that good, though; spells and feats in particular feel pretty mediocre. Do you all think it's worth it? If it matters, the character would be entering the game at level 9, so they'd have access to the bloodline power in question right off the bat.

[tyckspoon]

The Arcana is pretty good if you want to focus on the kinds of spells it improves; the rest of it doesn't seem worth spending 9 levels just for the Concealment effect. It's unfocused and mostly kind of weak (you get a bonus DC to Charm and Illusion, and then the bonus spells contain.. no Charm or Illusion spells? The feats and spells seem to want you to be a blaster, but then the bloodline powers don't give any support for that? It's all over the place and none of what it does is really good, aside from that level 9 bloodline power. Which would be really nifty if you were, say, an Arcane Trickster or something.)

[EldritchWeaver]

Can't you use cross-blooded to get rid of the bad stuff?

[chimaeraUndying]

The issue with using Crossblooded is that I'm using Crossblooded.

Less laconically, it changes the question to "is always-on concealment worth always being at -1 spell of every level?" to which I feel the answer is a strong no.

[Fizban]

The 3.5 version of Mirror Image doesn't actually allow the "lol you must roll randomly to hit" common use of the spell, but that's a moot point since the Pathfinder version explicitly works that way (which is dumb). Thing is, there's still no reason for the concealment to stack, or indeed for anyone to ever play ball with the spell. You can close your eyes and swing with a 50% miss chance (or better with Blind Fight), which is the same hit chance as even a single image. If they're smart and ignoring Mirror Image, they're also ignoring your other concealment.

Constant concealment can also be easily compared to the Minor Cloak of Displacement, which is 24,000gp in both versions. Depending on how much you'd be willing to pay for extra spells (slot or known? either) it's basic math after that.

[KillingAScarab]

Constant concealment can also be easily compared to the Minor Cloak of Displacement, which is 24,000gp in both versions. Depending on how much you'd be willing to pay for extra spells (slot or known? either) it's basic math after that.Alternately, weigh the cloak and the two feats it would take to create a better effect than the bloodline arcana. There's something familiar about that. A bonus to one of the two enchantment subschools, as well as to one whole school of magic (the one tied for the most subschools)? A misunderstanding of how darkvision and tremorsense works?



Section 15: Copyright Notice

Deep Magic. © 2014 Open Design LLC. Authors: Wolfgang Baur, Tom Benton, Creighton Broadhurst, Jason Bulmahn, Ross Byers, Charles Lee Carrier, Tim Connors, Adam Daigle, Jonathan Drain, Mike Franke, Ed Greenwood, Frank Gori, Jim Groves, Amanda Hamon Kunz, Sam Harris, Brandon Hodge, Phillip Larwood, Jeff Lee, John Ling, Jr., Chris Lozaga, Ben McFarland, Nicholas Milasich, Carlos Ovalle, Richard Pett, Marc Radle, Stephen Radney-MacFarland, Wade Rockett, Stephen Rowe, Adam Roy, Amber E. Scott, Neil Spicer, Owen K.C. Stephens, Joshua Stevens, Christina Stiles, Matt Stinson, Stefen Styrsky, Dan Voyce, and Mike Welham.I strongly suspect this bloodline was created by Wolfgang Baur.


The 3.5 version of Mirror Image doesn't actually allow the "lol you must roll randomly to hit" common use of the spell, but that's a moot point since the Pathfinder version explicitly works that way (which is dumb).From d20 SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mirrorImage.htm).


Enemies attempting to attack you or cast spells at you must select from among indistinguishable targets. Generally, roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment. Any successful attack against an image destroys it. An image’s AC is 10 + your size modifier + your Dex modifier. Figments seem to react normally to area spells (such as looking like they’re burned or dead after being hit by a fireball).What the Pathfinder version (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/mirror-image) does is simplify the attack roll against an image. Yes, that means armor works for images and, no, I didn't want to subtract dodge and force bonuses from touch AC to make the simulation accurate. You'll stroll casually through your non-magical fire, only risking a non-scaling quantity of hit points, and like it.

[Fizban]

Sigh. You're focusing on the wrong part of the text, "generally roll randomly" doesn't override the rest, where the images don't stand in the same space as you. They merge and split off from you when you move, otherwise remaining within 5' of yourself or another image, but that doesn't mean they're in the same space. You're encouraged to roll randomly when people have no way of telling you apart from your images, and that's it.

The Pathfinder version is their houserule, just like the rest of Pathfinder. It is no surprise that they canonized the more common and easier (and more powerful until you realize it) misunderstanding rather than the "use your wits and tactics to overcome the illusion" way the spell was originally written. I left in the mention first because there is a significant difference between the 3.5 and Pathfinder versions, which is worth pointing out in case someone who's Pathfinder-primary wants to take info from this thread and talk about Mirror Image later, and second because if you're running the 3.5 version correctly you don't have the blindingly obvious blindness bug where closing your eyes makes you more likely to hit someone than if you "chose randomly" among the pile of overlapping images in the same square which isn't actually supported in the 3.5 version.

Which becomes highly relevant when you're trying to stack miss chances. Forced "random" targeting of multiple targets in the same square is more powerful than any other miss chance in the game, to the point that stacking is pretty laughable (the standard minimum is 66% miss chance, stacking a 20% is basically the same as adding one more image, ha). That version of the spell is borked plain and simple, the easiest way to avoid it is to just ignore it by pretending to close your eyes, at which point no attempt at stacking matters. Trying to stack miss chances onto Mirror Image used the wrong way is basically the fastest way to notice it's wrong (and indeed, is what made me question the common usage enough to realize it was wrong in the first place).

[Florian]

*Throws Blinded Blade Style at Fizban, then runs for "real" cover*

[KillingAScarab]

Sigh. You're focusing on the wrong part of the text, "generally roll randomly" doesn't override the rest, where the images don't stand in the same space as you. They merge and split off from you when you move, otherwise remaining within 5' of yourself or another image, but that doesn't mean they're in the same space. You're encouraged to roll randomly when people have no way of telling you apart from your images, and that's it.

The Pathfinder version is their houserule, just like the rest of Pathfinder. It is no surprise that they canonized the more common and easier (and more powerful until you realize it) misunderstanding rather than the "use your wits and tactics to overcome the illusion" way the spell was originally written. I left in the mention first because there is a significant difference between the 3.5 and Pathfinder versions, which is worth pointing out in case someone who's Pathfinder-primary wants to take info from this thread and talk about Mirror Image later, and second because if you're running the 3.5 version correctly you don't have the blindingly obvious blindness bug where closing your eyes makes you more likely to hit someone than if you "chose randomly" among the pile of overlapping images in the same square which isn't actually supported in the 3.5 version.While I think, "correctly," is a strange word to use in as subjective of a game as D&D, I will say that I was wrong about AC. In Pathfinder figments (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Illusion) have a set AC, and so do D&D 3.5 figments (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#figment), but mirror image is an exception. At the end of the day, though, it's going to come down to a DM's ruling. If your table has the time to circumvent the shell game, knock yourself out.

[Calthropstu]

I prefer other things for sorcerers in pathfinder. Fire bloodline on an aasimar for example with high con makes for a very difficult to kill sorcerer. Take the spells fly, invisibility and dimension door and you're virtually untouchable with resistances to all four of the major elements, the ability to easily escape combat and the power to sling various forms of death.