Would this puzzle make sense to you

[MarkVIIIMarc]

I wanna test something for tomorrow night to see if it makes any sense.

The party will be on the hunt for a powerful ancient artifact.

You all just killed the last Dark mantle in the back of the cave and rolled high enough to know to avoid the gas spore. Most of the walls are mixture of moss covered natural rocks. One has a cave art mural (which if the party cleans) will show barrels of simple commodities being divided evenly among the people. Then a picture of 7 sheep and an angry face. There is the elven symbol for division with a red ex through it by that. Below the mural is equally moss covered area which has a couple dozen regularly spaced arm sized holes. The pattern is:

* * * * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * * * *

There are numbers written under each. A good cleaning reveals the top row is numbered 1 - 10 in elvish. The part may not have a member who actually reads elven so I'm not sure they'd know the second row is 11 - 20 and the third 21 - 30 exactly but most of us would figure out "uno, dos, tres, quatro, cinco, seis, siete, ocho, nueve, diaz" even if we don't speak Spanish so I'm going to give the 1 - 10 to them.

If you hold a torch up to the holes it seems like you can almost see the bottom of each but they turn down at the far end. Essentially they all look the same. Sticking your hand in reveals each has a handle on the bottom.

The correctly numbered ones, 1, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 17, 19, 23, & 29 will each give a rewarding good sound like a lock coming undone.

I'll have wrong numbered ones release claws which do a D4 of damage at first or something before several wrong choices activate a something or other golem like. Can't be a golem though, the party is just level 2.

Is there any chance the party will figure out I want them to pull if I want them to pull the prime numbered ones up to 30? How can I make it more obvious but still fun....

[Tiadoppler]

The correctly numbered ones, 1, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 17, 19, 23, & 29 will each give a rewarding good sound like a lock coming undone.

...

Is there any chance the party will figure out I want them to pull if I want them to pull the prime numbered ones up to 30? How can I make it more obvious but still fun....

First, make a decision.
Is 1 prime?
Is 2 prime?

If you've got people who know math trivia, this will confuse them.

By current convention:
2, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 17, 19, 23, 29
are the primes under 30


Second, rather than pictograms, I'd suggest putting in a worded puzzle, in a language the party can read.

"I am content. I do not, I cannot and I will not share my treasure equally with any others. How much treasure do I have?"

[Davrix]

add a riddle or something to give them a clue for prime numbers (also in Elvish) But if no one reads elvish this puzzle may be to complex but hey not everything can be solved.

Something like

"One and three but not two and four"

or id of dropped some other hints in the dung or in the over-world about elves loving prime numbers but you might not have the set up for that.

Another riddle that might work is but only if you have a math nerd in your group is using a image like this on the cave wall

http://www.seanparnell.com/Hyperion%20Cantos/Hyperion%20Cantos%20Images/1%20to%20100%20Primes%20by%20Selvam.gif

Leaving the graph part out

[Aett_Thorn]

If you came across a puzzle where you had a picture of things being divided evenly making people happy, but 7 led to an angry face, wouldn't you kind of assume that you were supposed to go for even numbers, not primes?

[Tiadoppler]

"One and three but not two and four"


First, I love that graph.
Second,

2 and 3 are both prime.
1 and 4 are not prime (although 1 could be debated if you're feeling pedantic).



"One and three but not two and four" is the difference between odd and even, not prime/not prime.

[Pex]

You could go for the pun. Change your clues to reference the modrons and their leader Primus.

[tensai_oni]

If you came across a puzzle where you had a picture of things being divided evenly making people happy, but 7 led to an angry face, wouldn't you kind of assume that you were supposed to go for even numbers, not primes?

This. Angry face means bad, and the party will interpret the images as them needing to avoid prime numbers, not picking them.

[Flashy]

add a riddle or something to give them a clue for prime numbers (also in Elvish) But if no one reads elvish this puzzle may be to complex but hey not everything can be solved.

Something like

"One and three but not two and four"

or id of dropped some other hints in the dung or in the over-world about elves loving prime numbers but you might not have the set up for that.

I’ll second all of this simply because I found the puzzle completely inscrutable as written. From the description of the cave painting I thought it was supposed to be a mural about how sharing is bad and would never have thought to connect it with the concept of prime numbers.

[Davrix]

First, I love that graph.
Second,

2 and 3 are both prime.
1 and 4 are not prime (although 1 could be debated if you're feeling pedantic).



"One and three but not two and four" is the difference between odd and even, not prime/not prime.

I said that because your post said the correct numbers were 1 3 5 at the start as correct numbers.

[JellyPooga]

I keep wondering...given that the party can't speak Elven, why not just have "All the Primes" or something similarly obvious written on the wall in Elven? I mean, aside from the metagame notion of presenting a puzzle for the players, what is the purpose of the lock?

Is it to keep non-Elves out? In that case, making it blindingly obvious to Elves seems like a sensible idea; don't want to keep Elves out.

If the lock is meant to allow smart people through, but not dull ones, then giving too obvious a clue is out, but that raises the question of why a lock would need to bar access to those of limited intellect.

Figure out the purpose of the puzzle, from an in-game perspective. That will tell you how to telegraph the solution. If the players can't figure it out, then they don't get through. If that puts a halt on the game, you've put the puzzle in the wrong place.

[Tiadoppler]

I said that because your post said the correct numbers were 1 3 5 at the start as correct numbers.

I'm not the original poster.
I was correcting OP with regards to what prime numbers are.

I totally agree with you: there should definitely be a written out puzzle, or clues. Pictograms are tough to work with. Especially if they're described and not available as a picture for the players to puzzle over.

[holywhippet]

How about making the puzzle straight out worded:

Peter the pirate has 30 bags placed in front of him. The first bag has a single gold piece and each following bag has one gold piece more than the last. He may choose any 10 bags to keep, however Bill the Buccaneer will then get to choose 10 more bags followed by Roger the robber taking the last 10. If, after taking their bags, any person has a bag with a number of gold cleanly divisible by the number in any other bag then the person with the second bag may claim both bags as their own. Which bags should Peter take?

This will make them choose from the original list and take 1 instead of 2 since all the other bags are cleanly divisible by 1.

I haven't checked the math on this though, I'm not certain the prime numbers are the optimal solution vs. taking high valued bags and the bags they are divisible by.

[Tiadoppler]

How about making the puzzle straight out worded:

Peter the pirate has 30 bags placed in front of him. The first bag has a single gold piece and each following bag has one gold piece more than the last. He may choose any 10 bags to keep, however Bill the Buccaneer will then get to choose 10 more bags followed by Roger the robber taking the last 10. If, after taking their bags, any person has a bag with a number of gold cleanly divisible by the number in any other bag then the person with the second bag may claim both bags as their own. Which bags should Peter take?

This will make them choose from the original list and take 1 instead of 2 since all the other bags are cleanly divisible by 1.

I haven't checked the math on this though, I'm not certain the prime numbers are the optimal solution vs. taking high valued bags and the bags they are divisible by.


The correct answer would be to take bag 1, and confiscate every other bag.

[Keltest]

I keep wondering...given that the party can't speak Elven, why not just have "All the Primes" or something similarly obvious written on the wall in Elven? I mean, aside from the metagame notion of presenting a puzzle for the players, what is the purpose of the lock?

Is it to keep non-Elves out? In that case, making it blindingly obvious to Elves seems like a sensible idea; don't want to keep Elves out.

If the lock is meant to allow smart people through, but not dull ones, then giving too obvious a clue is out, but that raises the question of why a lock would need to bar access to those of limited intellect.

Figure out the purpose of the puzzle, from an in-game perspective. That will tell you how to telegraph the solution. If the players can't figure it out, then they don't get through. If that puts a halt on the game, you've put the puzzle in the wrong place.

Listen to JellyPooga. They are smart people.

Adding to this, you should plan for the party to be able to get in some way besides the riddle. Maybe the door is 5000 years old and held together by inertia and happy thoughts. Maybe theres some vermin nest that penetrates the wall. Maybe the occupants forgot to lock the back door when they went out for tea. But chances are your players did not show up for math games, so be prepared for them to say "stuff this" and try something else.

[Tiadoppler]

A sealed, stone, elven door with three buttons on it.
The first one has a picture of the moon.
The second one has a picture of a melon.
The third one has a picture of a smiley face.

In gorgeous lettering above the door, an inscription in Elven reads
"Poke friend, and enter."

The door opens when you press the second button.

[holywhippet]

The correct answer would be to take bag 1, and confiscate every other bag.
Yeah, I was in a hurry before I posted and realized my mistake afterwards.

[Tiadoppler]

I very rarely put full puzzles into d&d campaigns because not all of my players enjoy them.

When I do put a puzzle into the game, I always have an assigned DC for using skills to get hints/solve the puzzle completely.
Perception might show you that footprints lead up to this button, but not that one.
Investigation might show you that this lever has been used more frequently than the other one.
History might give you a big clue about the solution + advantage on the next check
etc.
a straight up INT or WIS check solves the puzzle
a Dex(sleight of hands) opens the door anyway
STR breaks the door down



If my players don't want to or can't solve the puzzle, their characters should still be able to!

[Errata]

I keep wondering...given that the party can't speak Elven, why not just have "All the Primes" or something similarly obvious written on the wall in Elven? I mean, aside from the metagame notion of presenting a puzzle for the players, what is the purpose of the lock?

Is it to keep non-Elves out? In that case, making it blindingly obvious to Elves seems like a sensible idea; don't want to keep Elves out.

If the lock is meant to allow smart people through, but not dull ones, then giving too obvious a clue is out, but that raises the question of why a lock would need to bar access to those of limited intellect.

Maybe they want an in-group of only educated High Elves, and not some common Wood Elf hoi polloi. If they don't speak Elven anyway, you could make it a bit more obscure and go with Sylvan, but even then they might want an extra layer to keep out some Druid interloper who happens to know Sylvan.

There could be other tools that might help them figure it out if they don't have the language. Lots of divination spells that could be relevant. A successful investigate check might point out some anomaly that gives a clue of some of the numbers that are more frequently used than others, which might hint at the pattern. A sufficient amount of brute force might work. Or there might be a way to use their environment to roll a stone or knock a pillar through the door. Give them plenty of chances at alternatives, and if they can't figure out any of them, maybe they lose a bit of time and have to come back later better prepared. Maybe there's an NPC in town that social skills might lead them to with more information, or a shop with a comprehend languages scroll or something.

Know your party and their interests, but personally I feel the non-combat skills and spells should have meaning, which they won't if you don't like giving them challenges that might slow them down.

[LordEntrails]

If you came across a puzzle where you had a picture of things being divided evenly making people happy, but 7 led to an angry face, wouldn't you kind of assume that you were supposed to go for even numbers, not primes?


This. Angry face means bad, and the party will interpret the images as them needing to avoid prime numbers, not picking them.

^^ Those ^^
Your clues seem to indicate the opposite of the correct answers.


I very rarely put full puzzles into d&d campaigns because not all of my players enjoy them.

When I do put a puzzle into the game, I always have an assigned DC for using skills to get hints/solve the puzzle completely....
If my players don't want to or can't solve the puzzle, their characters should still be able to!


...

Know your party and their interests, but personally I feel the non-combat skills and spells should have meaning, which they won't if you don't like giving them challenges that might slow them down.
^^ Those ^^
Puzzles are risky in an RPG. First thing is, if you put a puzzle in an adventure, make sure you are not putting it their to show how smart/creative/or clever you are. That's no fun for the players.

Second, are you challenging the players or the characters? In your case this is all about how smart and clever the players are, not the characters. Is that really what you want to do?

If it's about the characters, then you have to make it all about the characters skills and not the players. Use a skill challenge to accomplish that, not a literal puzzle.

[NecessaryWeevil]

My first guess from these clues would have been, "choose nothing that's divisible by seven."

[Foxhound438]

Second, rather than pictograms, I'd suggest putting in a worded puzzle, in a language the party can read.

"I am content. I do not, I cannot and I will not share my treasure equally with any others. How much treasure do I have?"

holy **** I thought he was trying to go for some kind of commentary on communism with the explanation of the pictographs where the guy with the sheep was like the one capitalist who refused to be a communist with them.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Well by best idea with the puzzle was running it by everyone first!

The remarks about communism and sharing being bad made me laugh.

I'll rethink this. On one hand this group of elves is supposed to been / have been a bunch of arrogant smarter than thou's. On the other I don't want to torture ppl.

[Honest Tiefling]

holy **** I thought he was trying to go for some kind of commentary on communism with the explanation of the pictographs where the guy with the sheep was like the one capitalist who refused to be a communist with them.

I'm with this guy, I thought it had something to do with greed being bad because the sheep weren't being shared. The thing about sheep however, is that you can turn them into fractions so the whole prime number thing might not work so well if people have the idea (like I did) that you can just cut up a sheep to eat it.