[Dreamscarred Press][Path of War]Medic build help. Please.

[Volfogg]

Posting here in the hopes of obtaining some additional insight/help.

I was tinkering with the idea of building a "tanky" front-liner medic (Aasimar / Angel of Mercy) which also acted as the parties main healer. The class itself receives excellent proficiencies as well as class abilities to facilitate this, however, I am having a difficult time determining what feats to go with as well as maneuvers. I was thinking about focusing on Iron Tortoise and Golden Lion for great defensive and party buffing potential. I am also keen on going with a sword and board setup, although I am not having a lot of success determining feats. So far I was thinking about the following feats:


Extra Medics Expertise (Bolstering Treatment)
Improved Shield Bash
Shield Focus (heavy)
Defensive Expertise
Iron Tortoise Style
Iron Tortoise Shell
Iron Tortoise Snap
Stumbling Bash
Shield Slam
TWF



Here are my selections for Medic's Expertise (+3 Favored Class Bonus):


agile runner
developed immunity
doctor's advice
emboldening boost
martial strike
neutralize poison
recovering touch
improved recovering touch
revitalizing touch
treat curse
treat disease


Here's a link to my maneuver choices: Medic Maneuvers. (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1jj_QC1aVWAH6MhXP8Y88vRAc994VMXBuUXSPs1mt_ qU)

That's about all I have so far, so any and all comments/suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Cheers
Volf

[Castilonium]

Why Angel of Mercy? You're an Aasimar, so your energy resistances won't stack. You didn't pick any strikes that heal, so your Bolstering Strikes is wasted. Base medic will be better.

Developed Immunity isn't great because you have Neutralize Poison and Treat Disease. Martial Healing isn't great because it reduces your healing and counts towards the triage expertise limit, and you might as well simply use your triage normally. You could get Combat Training instead.

Think about getting Martial Power and Nemean Lion Hide since you wanna be a shield-using tank. I don't recommend the Iron Tortoise Style chain since raw damage isn't your main strength and you have a low reflex save. Unlike most martial classes, medics have no class features outside of maneuvers that improve their accuracy or damage.

[Elricaltovilla]

Why Angel of Mercy? You're an Aasimar, so your energy resistances won't stack. You didn't pick any strikes that heal, so your Bolstering Strikes is wasted. Base medic will be better.

Developed Immunity isn't great because you have Neutralize Poison and Treat Disease. Martial Healing isn't great because it reduces your healing and counts towards the triage expertise limit, and you might as well simply use your triage normally. You could get Combat Training instead.

Think about getting Martial Power and Nemean Lion Hide since you wanna be a shield-using tank. I don't recommend the Iron Tortoise Style chain since raw damage isn't your main strength and you have a low reflex save. Unlike most martial classes, medics have no class features outside of maneuvers that improve their accuracy or damage.

This is mostly good advice. However, Medics can boost their attack rolls by using Triage on themselves thanks to the Bolstering Treatment Expertise. This can be increased by +2 with the Doctor's Advice expertise, and increased again by the helpful (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/race-traits/helpful/) trait if you are a halfling or pick it up via the adopted (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/social-traits/adopted/) trait. It's only good for one attack roll, so it's better for strikes, but up to +6 on an attack roll is a nice buff for the class. Additionally, medics can use the Wrathful Healing expertise to boost the damage of the next strike they initiate after healing an ally with triage.

For your disciplines, I would consider the "tanking trio" of Iron Tortoise, Eternal Guardian and Silver Crane. Those three together form a solid core of maneuvers that can be used to protect yourself and allies, and provide some additional healing. As an Angel of Mercy you'll only have to trade out one discipline (via trait or tradition) to get Eternal Guardian.

If you really want to be an Angel of Mercy, you could consider trading out your celestial resistances for Celestial Crusader (+1 attack vs. evil outsiders and +2 to K. Planes and Spellcraft to identify them and their effects) or Exalted Resistance (Spell resistance 5 + level vs. evil spells or SLAs of evil outsiders).

[thecrimsondawn]

You are looking to be a front line Medic? Consider taking a different route - Crane Style feat chain with a focus on unarmed strike. Taking a 2 level dip into Monk would vastly boost your combat effectiveness, most of all if you go Master of Many Styles.
Crane Style offers a huge increase to your ac, but does not offer much to land hits with. If you want to land hits, you either need a way to bring your attack bonus up, or bring your opponents ac down. Scarlet Throne is a solid option for this, and supports a wisdom focus as well. I suggest dropping Iron Tortuous and picking up Radiant Dawn (at the end of its playtest, about to enter print, see if your DM will allow it) or Silver Crane (I think this comes standard with Medic?). With an unarmed focus, Broken Blade can offer some major damage output as well.

IT has some decent counters and stances related to shields, but I find it is largely lacking when compared to the other paths until you get later level. Its 9th level counter is downright broken tho.

Another idea is instead of Golden Lion, opt for Riven Hourglass. Its rather poor very early levels, but once you hit the mid levels, you can give unneeded actions to your allies, give yourself more actions, reroll bad rolls. and its second style feat Riven Hourglass Eternity can be used to great effect with many different boots.

[Air0r]

many different boots.

But I only have one pair...

[thecrimsondawn]

But I only have one pair...

hah! I will leave that typo there just because of that :p

[Volfogg]

Wow! Thanks for all of the incredible responses. :) I don't have much time atm to respond to each but it looks like I might have had a few oversights when putting together my character. Thankfully this is only the brainstorming stage so I am able to tweak/change things when needed. Once I have more time I will respond to everyone and include an updated build.

Cheers
Volf

[Volfogg]

Greetings All

Finally had a chance to update my build. I have taken into account a number of suggestions, as well as focusing on Iron Tortoise, Eternal Guardian and Silver Crane maneuvers. I have also removed a number of feats and medic expertise that were not optimal. I have kept the Angel of Mercy archetype as it gives me acces to Silver Crane (I had to burn a trait on gaining access to Eternal Guardian). The one issue that I am having now is how to include the following two maneuvers: Grim Guard's Laughter and Stand Your Ground, which seem incredibly useful. Please see below for updated build as well as updated maneuvers.

Race: Aasimar[celestial crusader variant]

Traits

unorthodox method[eternal guardian(steel serpent)]
reactionary

Feats
improved shield bash
shield focus[heavy]
defensive expertise
stumbling bash
shield slam
twf


Medics Expertise[+3 from favored class bonus for a total of 12]
bolstering treatment
agile runner
doctor's advice
emboldening boost
neutralize poison
recovering touch
improved recovering touch
revitalizing touch
treat curse
treat disease
wrathful healing
combat training

Updated Maneuvers (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1jj_QC1aVWAH6MhXP8Y88vRAc994VMXBuUXSPs1mt_ qU).

I also checked out the Martial Power feat but thought against it as it lowered my to hit which is somewhat lacking as I am only a 3/4 BAB class. I was also thinking that Imposing Shield might be a decent feat as it adds an additional rider affect when shield bashing. Which would result in opponents suffering a -2 penalty to AC as well as to attacks rolls (only if attacking someone other than me) when struck by my shield bash. Whats everyone's thoughts on this?

Again thanks for all the help! It's really appreciated.

Cheers
Volf

[Elricaltovilla]

If you want more maneuvers than you can learn naturally via level up, then the Advanced Study (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats/advanced-study-combat/) feat is for you. You've only picked out 6/10 feats so you can definitely fit it into your build.

You could probably stand to lose Agile Runner, and I'd consider taking First Responder in its place. Mobility is key for the medic and triage can get you a lot of mobility. Regroup is another powerful option as it lets you move when you heal yourself, and doesn't count towards your maximum expertises used on a triage. This turns Triage into an offensive buff that you can use to tank more aggressively.

I'd also consider dropping Wrathful Healing. As a tank, you don't need sky high damage, so sticking with just the buffs maneuvers and stances give you should be plenty.

Combat Training is only worth taking if there are feats you know you want but can't otherwise fit into your build. You still seem to have feat slots available (you get one every even level in Pathfinder, if you didn't know).

You might want to pick up Prodigious Two Weapon Fighting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats/prodigious-two-weapon-fighting-combat) to make building your character easier, unless you're planning a DEX build, in which case you'll want Weapon Finesse (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/weapon-finesse-combat-final/) and Deadly Agility (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/weapon-finesse-combat-final/). Either route will help you streamline your build and keep your stat requirements easier to meet. If you go DEX based, you can afford to drop defensive expertise.

Personally, I'm not sure that Imposing Shield and Stumbling Bash are worth it. Imposing shield is only for if you need to apply a penalty but don't have any maneuvers left to do it.

Before you discount Martial Power and Nemean Lion Hide, remember that you can buff your attack rolls as a swift action via Triage + Bolstering Treatment. Combined with Regroup and First Responder, you can heal yourself, get a +4 to your attack roll, and move up to twice your speed as a swift action. Add to that the DR and Temporary Hit points, and you become a very tough, in-your-face problem for any opponent. You can then hit them with a strike at basically full accuracy (At 10th level, when this comes online, you'd be at a -1 penalty) and really bring the hurt. So I think you can see the potential combinations here when you get to mid-upper levels.

As for your maneuvers, I think you're on the right track overall. Remember that Advanced Study exists if you see something you want to poach for later.

By the way, what are your ability scores? Because advice changes based on the kind of math you have to work with.

[Volfogg]

Arlighty ... you have provide a ton of insight Elricaltovilla which is super appreciated! :smallsmile: Anyhoo, I have updated everything. Below is the completed list of feats as well as medic expertise. I have included those suggestions which you listed above Elricaltovilla. I can see the Martial Power + Nemean Lion Hide + Triage + Bostering Treatment + Regroup + First Responder as a sort of "gap closer" (as you pointed out above, nice trick btw) which will then allow me to use a strike (something like Angering Smash or Aggravating Wounds in order to keep the enemy focused on me) which further cements my roll as the party tank. I also kept Shield slam + Stumbling Bash as a sort of "all day" mini combo that I can use versus most enemies without having to rely on resource expenditure.

Also, here are the stats I rolled (we use roll 4d6 drop lowest method): 16, 14, 14, 12, 11, 10.

Feats
advanced study[Grim Guard's Laughter & Stand Your Ground]
prodigious two weapon fighting
improved shield bash
shield focus[heavy]
defensive expertise
nemean lion hide
imposing shield
stumbling bash
martial power
shield slam
twf

Medics Expertise[+3 from favored class bonus for a total of 12]
combat training[advanced study]
bolstering treatment
first responder
doctor's advice
emboldening boost
neutralize poison
recovering touch
improved recovering touch
revitalizing touch
treat curse
treat disease
regroup

Updated maneuver (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1jj_QC1aVWAH6MhXP8Y88vRAc994VMXBuUXSPs1mt_ qU) list.

I believe that I have a fairly decent setup now. Let me know if there are any glaring mistakes.

Thanks again!

Cheers
Volf

[Elricaltovilla]

I'd better be able to give good advice, I wrote the damn thing.

Glad I could help.:smallbiggrin:

[Volfogg]

I'd better be able to give good advice, I wrote the damn thing.

Glad I could help.:smallbiggrin:
I was thinking that you seemed to know the system incredibly well! Now I know why. :tongue: Great product by the way. I love concepts and especially base classes which fill a certain party roll but do so by going in a very different direction than the norm.

Cheers
Volf

[Elricaltovilla]

Advanced study is two maneuvers or one Stance if you're taking the maneuvers from a class Discipline. This applies to Disciplines that you swap for like Eternal Guardian, so you don't need that many Advanced Studies (or do you?). So that could free up a feat or two if there's something else you'd like to take.

[Volfogg]

Advanced study is two maneuvers or one Stance if you're taking the maneuvers from a class Discipline. This applies to Disciplines that you swap for like Eternal Guardian, so you don't need that many Advanced Studies (or do you?). So that could free up a feat or two if there's something else you'd like to take.
That is awesome! That frees up just enough to work in Imposing Shield. :smallbiggrin: You, Elricaltovilla, are a scholar and a gentleman. Thanks again to everyone for the help. I am pretty excited about this toon. I will post build as well as encounter information when we play so that people can see it in action.

Cheers
Volf

Edit - I have updated the post above to include this change as well as linked the maneuver list for ease of reference.

[Elricaltovilla]

I look forward to hearing about how you like the class. I have dreams of someone writing a guide for the medic, but I have a feeling that is unlikely to happen anytime soon.