Move speed question

[PaucaTerrorem]

Another thread got me thinking about move speed.

What's the highest move speed one could attain by lvl10 with only Core, UA, and Completes. 3.5 only.

[Darrin]

What's the highest move speed one could attain by lvl10 with only Core, UA, and Completes. 3.5 only.

Race: Xeph
Stub: Druidic Avenger 5/Were-Cheetah 3 (afflicted LA +2)
Feats: Speed of Thought (1st), Dash (3rd), Cheetah's Speed (6th)

50' base speed (Cheetah form)
+30' Xeph burst (racial ability, competence bonus)
+10' fast movement (as Barbarian 1, so untyped)
+10' Speed of Thought feat (XPH, insight bonus)
+10' longstrider spell (enhancement bonus)
+10' Quick trait (UA, untyped)
+5' Dash feat (CWar)
-----
125' land speed x10 (Sprint) x 10 (Cheetah's Speed) = 12,500' for 1 round.

Assuming room temperature, dry air, at sea level, speed of sound is about 6760 feet per round (6 seconds). So that's about Mach 1.8. If you have a friendly wizard cast expeditious retreat on you first, you can crack Mach 2.1.

[KillianHawkeye]

What's the highest move speed one could attain by lvl10 with only Core, UA, and Completes. 3.5 only.


Race: Xeph
Stub: Druidic Avenger 5/Were-Cheetah 3 (afflicted LA +2)
Feats: Speed of Thought (1st), Dash (3rd), Cheetah's Speed (6th)

50' base speed (Cheetah form)
+30' Xeph burst (racial ability, competence bonus)
+10' fast movement (as Barbarian 1, so untyped)
+10' Speed of Thought feat (XPH, insight bonus)
+10' longstrider spell (enhancement bonus)
+10' Quick trait (UA, untyped)
+5' Dash feat (CWar)
-----
125' land speed x10 (Sprint) x 10 (Cheetah's Speed) = 12,500' for 1 round.

Assuming room temperature, dry air, at sea level, speed of sound is about 6760 feet per round (6 seconds). So that's about Mach 1.8. If you have a friendly wizard cast expeditious retreat on you first, you can crack Mach 2.1.

The Expanded Psionics Handbook wasn't on the list of available sources in the OP, so you might want to pay more attention next time.

[Morcleon]

The Expanded Psionics Handbook wasn't on the list of available sources in the OP, so you might want to pay more attention next time.

Considering that XPH is included in the SRD, it's entirely reasonable to treat it as core, especially since CPsi is allowed.

[Darrin]

The Expanded Psionics Handbook wasn't on the list of available sources in the OP, so you might want to pay more attention next time.

I did pay attention. Complete Psionics was included as part of the Completes, and you can't really have that without the XPH. Since the XPH is almost entirely available for free online, I figured that it would be included as part of "Core". Even if you take out the Xeph, Xeph burst, and Speed of Thought, it's still breaking the sound barrier.

[Hellpyre]

You can't combine Sprint and Cheetah's Speed to get 100x speed. Even if you can apply both to the same charge, they both allow you to move 10x normal movement, not increase your movement speed. Even if they stack, you should get somewhere between 18x and 20x movespeed in one round.

[KillianHawkeye]

I did pay attention. Complete Psionics was included as part of the Completes, and you can't really have that without the XPH. Since the XPH is almost entirely available for free online, I figured that it would be included as part of "Core".


Considering that XPH is included in the SRD, it's entirely reasonable to treat it as core, especially since CPsi is allowed.

You might think it gets included with Complete Psionics, or that treating it as core because it's on the SRD is reasonable, but neither of those things are true. The OP gave a list and XPH isn't on it. :smallannoyed:

There is a specific definition of what's considered the D&D "Core Rulebooks", and it's only the Player's Handbook, the Dungeon Master's Guide, and the first Monster Manual. Material from the Expanded Psionics Hanbook, Deities & Demigods, and Unearthed Arcana actually don't appear in the real SRD either, but they're included in sites like d20srd because they're part of the open content under the OGL and are thus legal to share freely.

[Darrin]

You can't combine Sprint and Cheetah's Speed to get 100x speed. Even if you can apply both to the same charge, they both allow you to move 10x normal movement, not increase your movement speed. Even if they stack, you should get somewhere between 18x and 20x movespeed in one round.

Nope. The wacky “additive” multiplication rules only apply to abstract values, such as damage. If it’s a real-world value, such as distance or speed, you use standard multiplication. Cheetah’s Sprint is (Ex) and Cheetah’s Speed, which is worded a little differently and also (Su), are separate sources.



There is a specific definition of what's considered the D&D "Core Rulebooks", and it's only the Player's Handbook, the Dungeon Master's Guide, and the first Monster Manual.

I’ve seen about six different definitions of “Core”. PHB + DMG + MM is the most common interpretation, but not the only one.

[Hellpyre]

NIf it’s a real-world value, such as distance or speed, you use standard multiplication. Cheetah’s Sprint is (Ex) and Cheetah’s Speed, which is worded a little differently and also (Su), are separate sources.

Mostly, the important part is that they both work off of your normal movement speed, but they don't change your movespeed in and of themselves. The standard multiplication should still only give 20x, because you multiply the same base number for each ability, without any way to iterate them.

EDIT: You also need line-of-sight to your destination to make a charge anyways, so you probably would hit a snag in there somewhere anyways if you travel too far.

[PaucaTerrorem]

Should have clarified. No psionics. Sorry bout that.

[KillianHawkeye]

I’ve seen about six different definitions of “Core”. PHB + DMG + MM is the most common interpretation, but not the only one.

The only thing that matters is that it's the official one. Anyone who says "core" but means something other than "PHB + DMG + MM" is simply wrong and is just adding confusion to what ought to be a well-understood term.

[Darrin]

Should have clarified. No psionics. Sorry bout that.

Thank you for clarifying!

Race: Human
Stub: Druidic Avenger 5/Were-Cheetah 3 (afflicted LA +2)
Feats: Animal Devotion (1st), Dash (1st), Extra Spell (3rd), Cheetah's Speed (6th)

50' base speed (Cheetah form)
+10' fast movement (as Barbarian 1, so untyped)
+15' Animal Devotion feat
+30' expeditious retreat spell (enhancement bonus, via Extra Spell)
+10' Quick trait (UA, untyped)
+5' Dash feat (CWar)
-----
120' land speed x10 (Sprint) x 10 (Cheetah's Speed) = 12,000' for 1 round, or roughly Mach 1.7.

[Blue Jay]

Thank you for clarifying!

Race: Human
Stub: Druidic Avenger 5/Were-Cheetah 3 (afflicted LA +2)
Feats: Animal Devotion (1st), Dash (1st), Extra Spell (3rd), Cheetah's Speed (6th)

50' base speed (Cheetah form)
+10' fast movement (as Barbarian 1, so untyped)
+15' Animal Devotion feat
+30' expeditious retreat spell (enhancement bonus, via Extra Spell)
+10' Quick trait (UA, untyped)
+5' Dash feat (CWar)
-----
120' land speed x10 (Sprint) x 10 (Cheetah's Speed) = 12,000' for 1 round, or roughly Mach 1.7.

This doesn't work. Like Hellpyre said, the cheetah's Sprint ability and the Cheetah's Speed feat both key off your normal speed, so they can't key off each other like this. So, I would rule that the fastest you'd get from this is 1200 feet.

Another thing to consider is that the Cheetah's Speed feat sets your base land speed to a specific value, so it wouldn't stack with any boosts that are considered part of your base land speed (such as from the Quick trait).

But, assuming that things work the way you list them, couldn't you do the same thing with straight druid 6? That gives you 2 daily uses of Wild Shape, so you can use one to take cheetah form, and one to activate the Cheetah's Speed feat. I guess the question is whether the "overlapping durations" clause for the Wild feats (CAdv p 113) would allow you to overlap a Wild Shape form duration with a Wild feat duration (which, by RAW, it technically doesn't). But, assuming this works, you could drop lycanthropy and have 4 extra levels to accumulate speed boosts. A level of barbarian and a level of wildshape ranger would give you another two iterations of Fast Movement (untyped +10 ft's). That leaves two more levels: maybe you could dip an arcane class to get expeditious retreat without burning a feat?

[Crake]

Nope. The wacky “additive” multiplication rules only apply to abstract values, such as damage. If it’s a real-world value, such as distance or speed, you use standard multiplication. Cheetah’s Sprint is (Ex) and Cheetah’s Speed, which is worded a little differently and also (Su), are separate sources.

While distance isn't an abstract value, the concept of a move speed is.

[Darrin]

This doesn't work. Like Hellpyre said, the cheetah's Sprint ability and the Cheetah's Speed feat both key off your normal speed, so they can't key off each other like this. So, I would rule that the fastest you'd get from this is 1200 feet.


This isn't supported by the rules. A creature's normal speed is equal to the creature's base speed plus additional modifiers. If a creature's normal speed is reduced, such as when climbing, balancing, or moving through difficult terrain, it's usually defined by the rules as moving "one half normal speed" or "one-quarter normal speed". There's no indication from the rules that if you're multiplying or dividing a creature's speed, then you only factor in a portion of the creature's speed without modifiers or additional multipliers. A human barbarian 1 under the effects of an expeditious retreat spell gets to treat 70' as is "normal speed" for anything that might multiply or divide his movement.



Another thing to consider is that the Cheetah's Speed feat sets your base land speed to a specific value, so it wouldn't stack with any boosts that are considered part of your base land speed (such as from the Quick trait).


I don't see any compelling argument that a "Quick" human who changes form into a cheetah is not now a "Quick" cheetah. The best example, I would think, is that ability score modifiers from a creature's race changes your ability scores to a new "base" value, and that modifier does not carry over into any other form. A dwarf wild-shaped into a cheetah, for example, does not have a higher Con score than a typical cheetah. There's no indication in the UA text that the land speed increase from Quick is a modifier or if it results in a new "base" speed.



But, assuming that things work the way you list them, couldn't you do the same thing with straight druid 6?


Wild Shape doesn't grant (Ex) abilities like Sprint. You can do this a level later, when Druid 7 gains access to enhance wild shape (Spell Compendium). Master of Many Forms 8 also gains access to (Ex) abilities, although the real winner there is Split (Ex).



I guess the question is whether the "overlapping durations" clause for the Wild feats (CAdv p 113) would allow you to overlap a Wild Shape form duration with a Wild feat duration (which, by RAW, it technically doesn't).


The text from CAdv says:

"You can activate only one wild feat (or use the wild shape ability to change form once) per round, though overlapping durations may allow the benefits of more than one wild feat at a time."

So I'm not sure there's a problem with RAW here. If the were-cheetah is using Sprint (Ex) in cheetah form, that isn't a wild feat or wild shape ability, and there's no conflict with using Cheetah's Speed. If a Druid 7 using enhance wild shape wanted to do something similar in cheetah form, they could do so as long as wild shaping into a cheetah and using Cheetah's Speed happened on different rounds.



But, assuming this works, you could drop lycanthropy and have 4 extra levels to accumulate speed boosts. A level of barbarian and a level of wildshape ranger would give you another two iterations of Fast Movement (untyped +10 ft's). That leaves two more levels: maybe you could dip an arcane class to get expeditious retreat without burning a feat?

Enhance wild shape is outside of Core, so this won't work within ECL 10. Druid 5/Master of Many Forms 8 can do this by ECL 13 within Core + Completes.


While distance isn't an abstract value, the concept of a move speed is.

By that standard, any value in the game would be considered an abstract value. Are we not all just shadows on a wall?

[Hellpyre]

This isn't supported by the rules. A creature's normal speed is equal to the creature's base speed plus additional modifiers. If a creature's normal speed is reduced, such as when climbing, balancing, or moving through difficult terrain, it's usually defined by the rules as moving "one half normal speed" or "one-quarter normal speed". There's no indication from the rules that if you're multiplying or dividing a creature's speed, then you only factor in a portion of the creature's speed without modifiers or additional multipliers. A human barbarian 1 under the effects of an expeditious retreat spell gets to treat 70' as is "normal speed" for anything that might multiply or divide his movement.

You're arguing a different point than the one we're making, here. The thing is, neither of those abilities modify your movement speed, they just modify the amount of your base movement you can move as part of a charge. Adding 30' from expeditious retreat increases your movement speed, and the actions that move you based on your movement speed see that and adjust accordingly.

The sprint ability, on the other hand, allows you to move a certain percent of your current movement speed (1000%), but it does not change your movement speed in any way, so even if they are allowed to stack (dubious, but for the sake of argument we will assume it can) you would end up moving 2000% or 20x your movement speed. You move 10 times your movement speed, twice. Not 10 times the amount of distance you could cover moving 10 times your movement speed.

The sprint ability is still good for this discussion, since it move twice as far as the run action, but it won't affect your movement speed and thus won't stack multiplicitavely.

[Blue Jay]

This isn't supported by the rules. A creature's normal speed is equal to the creature's base speed plus additional modifiers. If a creature's normal speed is reduced, such as when climbing, balancing, or moving through difficult terrain, it's usually defined by the rules as moving "one half normal speed" or "one-quarter normal speed"...

That's not what I was trying to say. The point is that neither the cheetah's Sprint ability nor the Cheetah's Speed feat changes your normal speed: it just lets you charge over longer distances than normal, sort of like how running lets you cover more distance than normal. Most creatures can charge over two speed "increments", but cheetahs can occasionally charge over ten increments: it doesn't change the increment, just the parameters of the special action.

What if, instead of giving the cheetah "once per hour, charge at 10x Speed," you gave them a budget of 8 extra "speed increments," which they can divide up among multiple charge attacks the same way a paladin can divide up his Lay on Hands pool? That would be much more useful, but extra-bookeepy. Maybe make 8 the daily budget, instead of the hourly budget?


Wild Shape doesn't grant (Ex) abilities like Sprint...

Oh, I didn't think about it like that. Huh. My mind was just like, "Wild Shape grants movement modes, so Sprint is in."

But, now that I think about, how can Sprint be considered a 'normal speed' if it's not a 'movement mode'? It seems like it would have to be both or neither.


By that standard, any value in the game would be considered an abstract value. Are we not all just shadows on a wall?

I definitely agree with you that move speeds count as real-world distances: the PHB uses movement through difficult terrain as one of its examples of when to use "real-world multiplication" (p 304).