Homebrew Rogue Subclass - Thug ... thoughts?

[X3r4ph]

Hey pixies, dwarfs and giants etc.

I always thought this type of subclass was missing from the rogue repertoire. The tough henchmen that wacks people over the head with his club. He doesn't necessarily use stealth and cunning tactics, but has the means to rely on brute strength and sheer toughness to get by.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1r5ZvuxlOM6VCEUdvanZmUYnhKu_USHPvcRJnmDV-pS8

I am not sure about balance and naming. Please let me know if you have suggestions on anything.

[Talamare]

There is a Homebrew section on the forums

Also
It's pretty Broken

The Maul would become a legal Sneak Attack weapon, which means that you can use GWM with it

Finally...
This character could just be a Fighter and it would encompass the same natural feeling of a Thug

PS
I love the aesthetics of the sheet of paper, it looks really pretty

[Arkhios]

Blunt Force has a big potential for crazy damage. You could potentially grab a proficiency to maul (heavy two-handed 2d6 bludgeoning) by feat or multiclass (if allowed) and then take Great Weapon Master on top.

Edit: Too slow, again xP

Otherwise, it doesn't look like very unbalanced. Just fix Blunt Force and it should be fine.

[X3r4ph]

I hear what you are saying. So, what if it was only Simple Bludgeoning weapons?

[Arkhios]

I hear what you are saying. So, what if it was only Simple Bludgeoning weapons?

That works.

[X3r4ph]

Awesome!

Thanks guys! :D

Edit. And sorry about the wrong posting section. If a administrator could move it there that would be great :D

[Lombra]

Just read the comments here but sneak-attacking with a maul is not a problem. GWM is bad for a rogue that wants to consistently hit. It would only mean 2d6vs1d8 base damage difference, not much compared to the big sneak attack picture.

[Vaz]

Effectively D10 Hit Dice, Medium Armour Bonus, Multiclass allows Martial Weapons like the Flail, Maul and Warhammer to be sneak attack capable, Move during short rest is largely pointless for a 13th level ability, can knock unconcious with no duration, and halves all damage coming in against an enemies attack every turn.

I don't really know where to start with this, it's largely a mess of theme and mechanical interaction, and ridiculous abilities (Unconcious, 1/turn Uncanny Dodge? Did you mean Round? And why is a tough guy dodging the attacks?)

I wouldn't give a "Thug" medium armour proficiency - although I'd not have a problem giving them Con Save proficiency. There is no thematic need for Medium Armour Proficiency if they're a thug - Chain Shirt, Scale Mail, Breastplate are all way above what you'd typically expect a thug to be rolling around in.

I would limit sneak attack to Simple Bludgeoning Weapons only.

The short rest benefit could instead be regain the maximum amount rolled when you regain hit points by expending hit dice.

The Knock Unconcious is represented by making a Sneak Attack to a target and making it nonlethal. Not sure what else to put here. The assassinate ability represents this.

Perhaps the level 17 ability could be an extension of Evasion to all types of save.

[Avonar]

The Sleepy Time needs some rework. As written you can just spam it until the target falls unconscious, that seems too much. Just keep hitting that dragon and eventually it'll fail the save, fight over instantly. I'm it entirely sure myself how I'd change it but I think it needs fixing.

Perhaps they are unconscious until the start of your next turn?

[djreynolds]

I like the build

I like the new idea of using simple bludgeoning weapons (no staffs).... kind of tough to hide a maul

Remember you are still a criminal.... and you run from the guard

No unarmed stuff, it encroaches on the monk

Also watch out with the club and shillelagh issues

I would allow mace, light hammers, and clubs..... easily hid weapons

[Talamare]

Sleepy Time sounds broken... OMG INSTANT UNCONSCIOUS!

but let's not forget that the Monk's Quivering Palm exist, Instant Set opponent to 0 HP

If you want to nerf it, I suggest 'falls unconscious until it takes damage."

[Grod_The_Giant]

Blunt Force isn't a big deal-- you have to multiclass or pick a specific (probably non-optimal) race to get something actually useful, and you have to use Strength, and you're probably not TWFing either. A d8 warhammer or something is no better than a d8 rapier, and a 2d6 maul is only slightly better, and often inferior to a pair of 1d6 short swords. GWM is a non-issue; not only is taking a huge accuracy hit on your single high-damage attack probably a bad idea, but you could already grab Sharpshooter if you wanted to do so. So...

Walk it Off is confusingly worded.

I'm somewhat concerned by Sleepy Time, though-- it's exceptionally powerful. I'd add a limit like 1/short rest on it to prevent spamming.

[djreynolds]

It has flavor, for me that's the key..... it reads cool and would interest enough players at my table to try it out

[X3r4ph]

You are really split on whether or not you like the flavor of this subclass huh? Interesting. Perhaps I need to clear up exactly what type of scoundrel I wanna aim for. I am glad you like it djreynolds. :) I guess I need to write up on the flavor a bit more.

Concerning Bruiser
Doesn't seem like anybody have too big of an issue with this. Good so far.

Concerning Blunt Force
I have been thinking about it and I really don't see the big issue with Blunt Force being limited to all bludgeoning weapons. In order to really get a great benefit from this you have to invest in strength which is already a inferior ability score to increase than dexterity. All for an increase in damage from 1d8 to 2d6 (+4).
It is a nice increase in damage if you go two-handed. But if you compare it to dual wielding two short swords the damage from the maul is not only less, you also have a smaller chance of hitting you opponent with that precious Sneak Attack damage now that you can only make one attack.

Concerning Walk It Off
I wouldn't say this is pointless and as a level 9 ability (usually a ribbon ability for Rogue) but perhaps it is confusingly written. I will rewrite it so it is better explained.
My idea with it is this, a thug that has been out doing a good nights work, and got himself hurt, can actually heal up while on his way back to the hideout. In an adventuring party, a thug would be able to use hit dice while walking from the dungeon and back to the town.
Does this fit the concept of the subclass? Maybe not. Maybe this is something more suited for a guerilla warrior now that I think about it. What do you think?

Concerning Sleepy Time
:D I see your concern. Yes. Yes this is actually pretty overpowered. Once per short rest is better? I will change it to that. Along with Walk It Off a well prepared thug would also be able to pull off his "Sleepy Time" attack more often.

Concerning Tough as They Get
Usually the rogue gets a very powerful ability in this level. Perhaps this is too powerful. My experience with this level is that you usually fight very big guys with tons of attacks. A thug against a dragon would be able to use Uncanny Dodge twice in the dragons turn (once for free and once per expending a reaction).
Against smaller mobs with many attacks, what you might experience in a bar crawl, or against the city guard, this guy is as tough as a barbarian. Well, almost at least. That is what I was going for.
Maybe its completely broken. But, playing in a 18th level group at the moment, I would not think it too crazy compared to what fighters and barbarians can take on.
But Vaz, you are right about the flavor, why would this tough guy roll dodge all the punches when he could instead soak them like a champ? giving him Evasion on all saves is kinda the same thing. My idea was simply to build on a feature the rogue already had... and make him feel tough. Some kind of other damage mitigation would also work. Temporary hit points? Damage reduction? Healing? Regeneration? ... I went with "resistance". Dunno. thoughts?

I really appreciate all the feedback guys. Keep it coming. I have been wanting to play a single attack hard hitter for awhile. At the moment I play a Long Death Monk 14/ Champion Fighter 4... so many damn attack rolls :D

[Vaz]

Hmm, don't think I was clear. In 3.5, there was an ability called Mettle, which was functionally the same effect as Evasion, but whereas Evasion was uniquely for Reflex (Dex), Mettle affected Will (Wisdom) and Fortitude (Con) saves; back when there were only the three saves. I was suggestion mechanically lifting the effect of Evasion, and having that apply to all of your Saving Throws. It would allow you to tough out damage, and fit the name and theme.

[Quoz]

Suggested ability: loom
probably would go in place of walk it off, but I feel it should be in there somewhere.

When you use the help action to aid on any charisma check, you may add a bonus equal to your strength modifier in addition to the normal benefits of the help action.

[X3r4ph]

Hmm, don't think I was clear. In 3.5, there was an ability called Mettle, which was functionally the same effect as Evasion, but whereas Evasion was uniquely for Reflex (Dex), Mettle affected Will (Wisdom) and Fortitude (Con) saves; back when there were only the three saves. I was suggestion mechanically lifting the effect of Evasion, and having that apply to all of your Saving Throws. It would allow you to tough out damage, and fit the name and theme.I remember mettle quite well. Very underrated ability if you ask me. And I agree, it fits perfectly with being tough.

[X3r4ph]

Suggested ability: loom
probably would go in place of walk it off, but I feel it should be in there somewhere.

When you use the help action to aid on any charisma check, you may add a bonus equal to your strength modifier in addition to the normal benefits of the help action.
Love it! This is fantastic and the name says it all. :D

[X3r4ph]

Ok, I have updated the subclass so it's less broken :D

One last question. Would you consider it overpowered to be able to forego sneak attack to be able to make a shove a creature? I was thinking about adding something extra to Blunt Force so the Thug already has this strength dependent mechanic from the beginning.

Blunt Force. You are a master at knocking victims out and can deliver Sneak Attacks with all bludgeoning weapons you are proficient with.
Also whenever you attack using strength, and hit with a Sneak Attack, you can forego the Sneak Attack and instead try to shove your opponent.