Designing a Challenge for my Players

[proselus]

For various reasons, I'm looking to create a particular kind of challenge for my players.

Player composition is a barbarian, paladin, rogue, and druid, all single class, at level 7, not very optimized but usually more clever than I am.

What I'm looking for is a foe, or group of foes, built like a player would build them (no dm tricks), that is super hard to kill. Multi classing is ok, ua OK, all books OK. Damage isn't really a concern, their goal is to poke the players and get away. Hopefully, my players will then come up with super creative ways to kill them, and have an awesome time. Failing that, they will waste some resources that will make other fights more intense. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

[Sariel Vailo]

Have you heard of evil archetypes. The dmg has two and mfov has some nice evil ones

[Specter]

When in doubt, be thematic. A random adventuring party might be strong, but feels off. But a Death Cleric, three Fighters and a Necromancer Wizard devoted to Nerull, with similar levels? That feels appropriate.

[Tiadoppler]

4 Winged Tiefling Warlocks. Basically, a Fiend has sent a hit-squad after the party.

At level 7, they have 2 4th level slots each. Each one knows (at minimum) Eldritch Blast, Misty Step, Counterspell and Fireball, and the invocations Agonizing Blast (for extra Eldritch Blast damage), Devil's Sight (for darkvision 120'), Eldritch Spear (increase Eldritch Blast range to 300' for extra kiting, higher altitude attacks), and Armor of Shadows (free Mage Armor).


They make coordinated bombing runs, with Mage Armor active, against the players from maximum Fireball altitude (150' or 170' if you let them use airbursting to extend the fireball range), then gain altitude to maximum Eldritch Blast range (300') while they retreat to a hidden lair to make a short rest, before repeating the attack.

*If one of them is threatened or damaged, they have the option of using Misty Step or Counterspell to protect themselves and their allies (as long as they have a spell slot left).
*They can see in magical and non-magical darkness out to 120', so their bombing runs are lower in altitude at night, or if the party tries to use a magical darkness to conceal themselves.
*They use their spell slots during the bombing run, and aren't especially fast, so they can be trailed to their lair, and attacked while resting.
*If the party is surprised while bunched up and cannot/does not scatter immediately, and has a 50% chance on their DEX saves, the non-rogues would take ~54d6 Fire damage each (hit by 4 4th level fireballs, saves against 4 4th level fireballs), and the rogue would likely take ~18d6 Fire damage (hit for 1/2 damage by 4 4th level fireballs).




I would encourage you to use MM style enemies instead of PC style enemies. They're simpler to run, and not nearly as unfair to the players.



Edit: For extra cruelty, make it a constant cycle of attrition after the initial burst.
Warlocks w1, w2, w3, w4 all fly overhead. Each one lets loose a single fireball, then w1 uses his second fireball and flies off to rest.
20 minutes later (the warlocks keep following the players from 300' altitude) w2 uses his second fireball and flies off to rest.
20 minutes later w3 uses his second fireball and flies off to rest
20 minutes later w1 returns and w4 uses his second fireball and flies off to rest

Repeat for 24 hours:
[
10 minutes later w1 uses his first fireball
10 minutes later w2 returns, w1 uses his second fireball and flies off to rest
10 minutes later w2 uses his first fireball
10 minutes later w3 returns, w2 uses his second fireball and flies off to rest
10 minutes later w3 uses his first fireball
10 minutes later w4 returns, w3 uses his second fireball and flies off to rest
10 minutes later w4 uses his first fireball
10 minutes later w1 returns, w4 uses his second fireball and flies off to rest
]

[Sariel Vailo]

Calm down their satan challenging not tpk

[LaserFace]

I recommend Mongolian Horse-Archers, or something resembling them. Maybe make them Hobgoblins or something.

They can belong to a great Horde, or some other fighting force, and have been dispatched to a particular region to cause a ruckus. Maybe they have a small contingent of minions with them, but they're so low CR that they're more flavor than anything. But, the hard-to-kill guys would be specialized in long-range fighting, like archery or some spells. They don't necessarily have to be incredibly tough, just hard to pin down.

What they do is quickly raid settlements, and avoid slow-moving armies that get called to meet them in the field. Maybe to stop them from burning villages or causing similar problems, the party has to anticipate their movements, then track them, and then actually fight them. Depending on the party's approach, maybe they have to deal with annoying terrain, or maybe they actually find a way to use it to their advantage. Maybe part of the trouble is dealing with a force that is ultimately larger and more mobile than themselves. They might have to resort to a combination of stealth tactics and surgical strikes of their own in order to fight these dudes.

[Tiadoppler]

Calm down their satan challenging not tpk

:D
I apologize for being unclear. The point I was trying to make (by giving a brutal and terrible encounter example) was:



I would encourage you to use MM style enemies instead of PC style enemies. They're simpler to run, and not nearly as unfair to the players.


Designing PC enemies (as the OP requested) is very difficult and usually unbalanced.

* PCs tend to have high damage output or disabling options and relatively low HP, leading to 'rocket tag' where the battle is determined strictly by initiative order.
* The DM's 'PC Enemies' have a full day's worth of power to blow in a single encounter, while the actual party may have already used up some of their resources.
* The DM's 'PC Enemies' have the advantage of coordination, and (as an enemy encounter) can ambush an unsuspecting party too easily.


As far as a hit-and-run enemy that needs to be tricked, horse archers are great. A Mongolian-esque centaur culture is a bit cliche, but it's usually a good time. Anything fast/mobile with a ranged attack can work. A lone, single-classed, low-level 'PC-style enemy' can wreak havoc on the party. They don't need multi-classing, or UA, or lots of sourcebooks to drive your party mad.

A shapeshifting druid who takes the form of a bird and drops alchemist's acid.
A rogue/trapper who plants tripwires and poisoned bear traps.
A very stealthy archer with a multiclass into monk for increased movement speed might be fun.

When you, as the DM, take on the role of an 'enemy PC', you also risk the possibility that the players will object. It can be very similar to PvP, except one person (the DM) also controls the fabric of reality.

[proselus]

:D
I apologize for being unclear. The point I was trying to make (by giving a brutal and terrible encounter example) was:



Designing PC enemies (as the OP requested) is very difficult and usually unbalanced.

* PCs tend to have high damage output or disabling options and relatively low HP, leading to 'rocket tag' where the battle is determined strictly by initiative order.
* The DM's 'PC Enemies' have a full day's worth of power to blow in a single encounter, while the actual party may have already used up some of their resources.
* The DM's 'PC Enemies' have the advantage of coordination, and (as an enemy encounter) can ambush an unsuspecting party too easily.


I thank you all for your responses, and I actually like the ideas here.

As for concerns, I personally run mostly npc encounters straight out of the book, but my players enjoy taking on other PCs, and have for years. So occasionally I want to throw something like that at them. I appreciate you showing the warlocks so I can see show to overdo it. I'd probably limit the numbers to 1 or 2 to make sure it isn't so bad, but for a high level super dangerous foe, I love it.

In addition, I don't mind the complexity, and some of my newer players see monsters do things (monsters like orcs or giants or whatever) and say "I wanna do that" and the options don't exist, or exist poorly, or even seem unfair (why can they do that and not us). Making a few foes according to PC rules shows them new options, and let's me scratch that character building itch.

Also, if my characters have resources, it gets tracked, and I don't let them use everything in a single encounter, since I wouldn't if I was an actual player

[LaserFace]

A shapeshifting druid who takes the form of a bird and drops alchemist's acid.
A rogue/trapper who plants tripwires and poisoned bear traps.


I just wanted to say I thought these were super cool and now for some reason I'm thinking of bosses from Metal Gear, mostly MGS3.

Damn I wanna go design bad guys now

[Unoriginal]

[QUOTE=proselus;22752757
Also, if my characters have resources, it gets tracked, and I don't let them use everything in a single encounter, since I wouldn't if I was an actual player[/QUOTE]

You're not likely to have more than a single encounter involving those characters, though.

Not only you should never expect a bad guy to survive once they start fighting the PCs, but built-like-PC NPCs are going to be very fragile compared to monsters from the MM.

Furthermore, if you're not allowing them to use everything in their encounter, they're going to die even quicker. You can expect 2 rounds, especially if the PCs go nova.


Honestly, you're probably much better off using or homebrewing NPCs that just happen to have class capacities, like the Assassin, the Blackguard or the Warlock of the Fey from the MM and Volo's

[proselus]

Yeah I totally understand where you are coming from. I like the fragility, since the intent for these foes is to be annoying, and when my players figure out a strategy, they can stop the enemies pretty quickly.

And to be clear, this is a one off type thing, most of my foes are normal npcs, but my players like the challenge. I will be careful with the damage.

I will probably start with the flying alchemy bombers, I like that idea for a beginning point.

[Reaver25]

I gotta be honest here, I actually like the idea of using enemy PCs. I think it provides a real challenge to the PCs and I've told my players before that when it comes to combat, I will kill them if given the chance. They're olay with the risk, so it makes their playstyle less likely to make idiotic risks, such as fighting 4 flying-fireball-wielding-demon-like-creatures when they should be running away!

[Unoriginal]

Yeah I totally understand where you are coming from. I like the fragility, since the intent for these foes is to be annoying, and when my players figure out a strategy, they can stop the enemies pretty quickly.

And to be clear, this is a one off type thing, most of my foes are normal npcs, but my players like the challenge. I will be careful with the damage.

I will probably start with the flying alchemy bombers, I like that idea for a beginning point.

The thing is, it's less a question of strategy and more of who manages to land two solid hits first.

[Azgeroth]

Arcane Trickster.

Stalks the party, steals random bits of loot from them, and the dungeons they are plundering before them.

the druid is likely the best candidate for spotting this pesk (highest passive perception)

this little pesk might also occasionally help the party, they suddenly find a foe slain, with a door open that clearly shouldn't be.. evidence of traps recently sprung or disarmed.

they might even meet this little annoyance and not even know it.

beauty of this is it can go 1 of 2 ways, they might just hunt them down and slaughter them, or maybe they find them captured, rescue them, and gain a very useful npc ally, or fail to kill them, or befriend them and the annoyance continues...

[Strifer]

Don't forget to add a flying mount with high speed for poking;)

[Tiadoppler]

If you're going to use full-fledged PC-like-enemies, have some fun with it.

Use inefficient class/race combos and have them play smart/utilize all their abilities. An example is:

The PCs are drinking in the tavern, when another group drunkenly stumbles up to the table, insulting the PCs and demanding their table.
The shiny, sparkly pixie is the kind and apologetic one. She's a Tavern Brawler Barbarian.
The gruff, disheveled goliath wearing rags is the Drunken Master Monk.
The halfling with the dagger and sling: a Divination Wizard.
The kobold with the hand axe and shield: a Battlemaster Fighter


or, alternatively, have the party be the target of an evil hunt-and-destroy quest. The NPCs in that party talk amongst themselves as a free action, behaving like typical PCs.

NPC1: (jumps out of the bushes) "Halt! Throw down your weapons and you will not be harmed!"
NPC2: "Wait. I need to cast mage armor on you first. And now they're not surprised any more."
NPC3: (jogs out from the other side of the trail) "I thought this was an ambush. Did we change the plan? Sorry, I had a call of nature."
NPC1: (persuasion check) "If you surrender your magical gear, we'll let you go."
NPC3: "That has to be a deception check, not a persuasion. I'm not letting them go."
NPC1: "All right, it's deception."
NPC4: "Bothor gently picks up a red butterfly, and whispers a short poem to it."
NPC2: "It was going to be an ambush, but now we're talking again, apparently."
NPC1: "Whatever, I'll go back and hide."
NPC3: "Well they know we're here now. I attack."
NPC2: "Fine, I guess that's what we're doing."
NPC1: "Okay."
NPC4: "Bothor releases the butterfly into the air, and picks up the battleaxe of his grandfather. Soon, the ground will be stained with blood once more. Bothor weeps."

- roll initiative -