What's the general opinion on the Oath of the People's Council Paladin?

[AnonymousPepper]

Found here. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo-paladin-archetypes/oathbound-paladin/oath-of-the-people-s-council/)


1. You trade your smite out for full bardic music progression and all features thereof, as though you were a bard of your paladin level. This must be done by Perform (Oratory); per the next point, you have it as a class skill.

2. You gain Linguistics, Perception, and Perform as class skills in exchange for Handle Animal, Ride, and Spellcraft.

3. Aura of Justice and its 10ft AoE smite granting goes out the window in exchange for immunity to phantasms and free saves against figments for yourself, and allies gain +4 to phantasm saves.

4. Your capstone is replaced. Keep DR10/evil and maximization of all uses of channel and lay on hands to heal. Lose the free Banishment on a successful smite. Gain your stirring monologue granting SR30 for up to four targets affected by the bardic performance against evil outsiders and undead, and all listeners' weapons gaining good, silver, and cold iron for the purposes of bypassing DR.

5. Oath spells are Comprehend Languages, Locate Object, Tongues, and True Seeing (!).

The fluff is of a democratic crusader who is very particular about the legitimate part of "legitimate authority" in the paladin's code of honor, seeking to benefit the common good above all else and root out corruption, avarice, and mistreatment and exploitation of the masses.

I quite like it, provided there isn't already a bard in the party or you're playing at low levels where having more rounds of bardic music to use is always a good thing, but I'm wondering what the general opinion is of it, from a fluff perspective, from a playability perspective, and from a power/optimization perspective.

[Florian]

Personally, I think it´s rather underwhelming, because it "just" turns the character in a full BAB, low spellcasting Bard, that's it.

[Castilonium]

Before level 11, OotPC is better. Level 11 and onwards, regular paladin is better. Inspire courage is more widely applicable over the course of an adventuring day than the few uses of smite evil low level paladins have. By level 11, a regular paladin has enough uses of smite evil to use it liberally, and giving it to their whole party is way better than seeing through illusions.

Oath of Vengeance + Sacred Servant paladins are better than both of them at level 4+. Way more smites, and can summon a Dapsara (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/angel/angel-dapsara/) at level 8, which is effectively a level 5 bard cohort.

[Geddy2112]

In a campaign with few evil enemies(outsiders, undead, dragons) and a lot of humans or questionably evil, it is a big upgrade. Also if your party is a large group of martials and you don't have any buffer, it is more solid to buff than to smite evil. Being immune to phantasms is cool, and auto attempts to disbelieve illusions is as well, but being able to hand smite to the whole party is really good and a shame to lose(unless again, it is the type of game where big E evil is rarely if ever seen).

The oath spells are nifty, but not gamebreaking. SR30 as a capstone is meh, but healing max with lay on hands is cool. Those are all capstones though, and capstones hardly ever come up. I will say that banishment as a capstone for normal paladin is kind of garbage because normally you want to kill the thing not banish it.

Overall, I agree for low levels it good and in the right game it can really shine. It also brings a much different fluff and mechanics of the seek and smite stick in the mud, instead making you the cool dude or dudette that looks out for their squad. However, I second other paladins are outright better and at some point, you should just play bard or maybe multiclass/dip paladin on your bard.

[Peat]

Being a Paladin without Smite Evil always struck me as like eating a bacon sandwich that has no bacon in it. As such, I'm not a fan.

Which is a shame, as I love the idea of a Paladin that has Inspire Courage. It seems really fitting. But if I'm gonna be buffbot and little else, why am I not an actual Bard? I mean, the "Why not spells" question always exists, but its a lot easier to answer when you character is great punching bad guys in the face.

Maybe if I was playing a Tier 4 and below game, it would be a cool way to get buffing. But is it better than Sohei/Exemplar/Seasoned Commander?

[Calthropstu]

Really depends what the boss and minibosses are. If it were say wrath of the rightous, normal paladin all the way. Smite is so amazing at bringing down fiends and such.
On the other hand, if it's a campaign against humanoid opponents where smite is less beneficial, especially if most enemies aren't actually evil, then this would be a great alternative.

[2D8HP]

Love the "fluff", too ignorant to judge the "crunch".

[Drelua]

This is pretty sweet, Smite is a more powerful buff for sure but you can pretty much inspire courage in every fight once you get to a decent level. Take the Flagbearer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/flagbearer-local) feat, buy a Banner of the Ancient Kings (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/banner-of-the-ancient-kings/), and get a Dervish Sikke (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/c-d/dervish-sikke/), (didn't know about that until I did a search on the srd just now), and you've got +5 attack and damage for the whole party at level 5. I've played PFS games with a Bard that gives +7 around level 10, it makes a huge difference when everyone's hitting easily. As devastating as Aura of Justice is, it's only one enemy and you can only do it a max of two or three times in a day. Depending on the campaign - how many enemies you tend to fight at once and how many fights you tend to have in a day - I would say it's possible for Inspire to cause more total damage, under the right circumstances. Kinda want to play one of these in PFS now, they'd be perfect for the Liberty's Edge faction.

Edit: forgot to mention, the downside to the banner is that you have to use a longspear, although I imagine a lot of DMs would let you use another polearms, and that you wouldn't be able to afford that at level 5 for 18k. If you can do it by level 7 though, it'll be +6 thanks to the banner increasing your effective bard level

[Sayt]

I very much like it as a PF interpretation of "From Smite to Song"