Most useful creatures to cast animate dead on?

[ayvango]

Is there any list containing useful skeleton / zombie material per HD?

Skeleton template keeps magical ability to fly. How could I know if the ability is magical? For example Air Elemental has 100ft fly speed. Is it natural or Ex or Su?

[Eldariel]

Unlimited Bone Works (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=17451.0)
K's Revised Necromancer Handbook (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=2733.0)
Some of the better Zombie Dragon options (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?499642-Best-Dragon-to-Zombie-Dragon) (draconomicon has special rules for those).

In general though, things that have good physicals for their HD. Zombies need one big attack or a way to multiattack after movement (e.g. Hydras are great Zombies). Skeletons are even simpler. Remember, they keep their extraordinary special qualities improving their attacks so that's nice. Generally Giants (Ettins in particular still keep their two-weapon fighting for example, making for a great Skeleton) are often good bodies with their type-based martial weapon proficiencies as are Outsiders. Remember, you can equip your undead too and should do so, at least with mundane equipment that suits the given creature (Barding/Armor if nothing else).

[Zaq]

Does an air elemental even have a skeleton?

I think (but, of course, cannot conclusively prove) that the RAI on “magical” flight is that wing-based flight is not kept while non-wing-based flight is kept. But you could make an argument that the flight would have to be called out as explicitly (Su) and/or otherwise subject to going away in an AMF.

[Quertus]

The third best thing to animate are beholders (or other similarly terrifying creatures, especially that have a known undead counterpart) that you have drained down to 1 HD first.

The second best things to animate are things with templates, like half-dragon or fossil.

The best things to animate are your ex-wives (or other former BBEGs).

Combining the three is an exercise left to the reader.

[ayvango]

But you could make an argument that the flight would have to be called out as explicitly (Su) and/or otherwise subject to going away in an AMF.
That really interests me. Should an air elemental fall on ground inside AMF? The same question about lantern archon and other wingless flying creatures. I'm sure beholder would not because he described as natural buoyant.

Would winged creatures still fly in the troposphere? Air is not dense enough to support natural flying. Supernatural flight should work normally on contrary.

But I never encountered well defined rule that distinguish natural and supernatural flight abilities and how it interacts with environment.

[ViperMagnum357]

If you want a few large, somewhat useful zombies, I would suggest Jariliths. Most outsiders will fail to leave a corpse when they die, so tracking down such corpses will be expensive and time consuming, but worth it. Jariliths are fast enough so partial charges are fine, and make vicious combatants with Pounce, Rend, Improved Grab and 2 Rake attacks. A 'typical' specimen is 10HD, doubling to 20HD; add in some of the necromancer feats for improving undead, and Awaken them, for a useful minion that only counts against your Zombie/Skeleton pool.

[Vaern]

As far as I can tell, there is nothing to indicate whether a creature's flight is natural or magical. It's basically up to the DM whether to allow a skeleton to fly.
I'd say that, as a rule of thumb, anything that is capable of flying without the use of wings can be considered magical flight. In addition, if a creature's ability to fly would defy the laws of physics and reasoning despite the fact that it does have wings - such as a gargoyle made of solid stone with solid stone wings - it may also be considered to have magical flight.
Whether these creatures have skeletons or not, though, is another question altogether. Air elementals are made of air, so they wouldn't have a skeleton. Genies may qualify, as they have a fly speed and appear to have humanoid bodies that may indicate the presence of a skeleton.

[unseenmage]

In my extended sig there's a list of nearly every Animal and Vermin with a list of every template that doesn't change their type.

I originally made the list so my necromancer could buy Warbeasts (MM2) of the creatures and kill then reanimate them.


You should also take a look at Monstrous Compendium: Monsters of Faerun for some of the best size, HD, natural attack creatures for their CR in the game.
Even the 3.5 update to the book leaves them strong for their CR.

[BlackOnyx]

If your DM allows for it, animating basic 1hd humanoids (humans, orcs, hobgoblins) for the purpose of becoming cohorts could also be an option worth exploring. That said, you would need access to something like Awaken Undead (Deathbound 6, Sor/Wiz 7) to grant them the requisite intelligence score.

Though a number of their stats would be somewhat limited (Cha 1, Wis 10, Int 5-10), they would be able to take class levels and gain experience from encounters alongside you and your party.

[ayvango]

I scanned source book for the best flying mount for entire party and found ogre-mage skeleton the most suitable:

It has only 5 HD, while giant eagle zombie would consume 8 HD
It has large size so is suitable as mount for medium creature
It keeps flying speed 40ft with good manoeuvrability even without wings. And it could run indefinitely long outperforming therefore giant eagle with 80ft single action move with clumsy manoeuvrability.
It wears weapons and armor, so it could be protected to some degree.

[jedikiller]

Wyverns. Simple. Effective with sting. And cool.

[ayvango]

Wyvern zombie would have lame 60ft speed with clumsy manoeuvrability and would consume 14 HD. Need 14 lvl to create mounts for entire party. Ogre mages are much cheaper - they would consume only 20 HD totally, and you would still have spare HD.

[Jack_Simth]

Wyvern zombie would have lame 60ft speed with clumsy manoeuvrability and would consume 14 HD. Need 14 lvl to create mounts for entire party. Ogre mages are much cheaper - they would consume only 20 HD totally, and you would still have spare HD.I'm not entirely sure lower HD is a good thing when it comes to flying mounts. Lower HD also means fewer HP, so you might have a problem if you're flying around with your entire party over an inhospitable area when a stray Fireball kills all of your mounts. Yes, you can plan a backup for that very easily (keep featherfall prepared, make sure everyone has a potion of Fly, et cetera), but you'll at least want to be aware of the problem.

[Quertus]

Flying mount? One very large Zombie Dragon for the whole party. Done. Fly in style like Khan Ravensblood, undead slave trader.

[ayvango]

But you need to kill somehow prior to animating.

[Quertus]

But you need to kill somehow prior to animating.

No, you don't need to kill it yourself. You just need it to be dead. Find one in your backstory. Have your epic level brother give it to you as a birthday present. Heck, hire some adventurers to kill one for you. It's a solvable problem.

Or, Heck, buy a live, Mindraped dragon at Neogi slave prices with your starting WBL. ROFLstomp the everliving **** out of every encounter while it lives, animate it on the off chance it dies without a party wipe.

[ayvango]

Find one in your backstory. Have your epic level brother give it to you as a birthday present.
Why not just take vest of the archmagi as a birthday present? Backstory is universal excuse to attaining any game-breaking wealth. Dead dragon body is valuable and rare resource, there is no way it would be granted to player just as a birthday gift.

[ben-zayb]

Seconding the Zombie Dragon guide. You just can't go wrong with a breath weapon of Disintegrate, negative levels, sleeps, etc.

[ayvango]

Seconding the Zombie Dragon guide. You just can't go wrong with a breath weapon of Disintegrate, negative levels, sleeps, etc.
It is a bad idea. There is quite a chance that 10lvl party would be totally disintegrated before it could kill 40HD pyroclast dragon. And if they succeeded they would get inst-win and very boring game until they hit epics. Well, I'm too lazy to calculate ton of XP for killing the dragon. Perhaps the party would step to 20th level the moment they kill the dragon.

P.S. I forget for a moment about laziness and calculated XP reward: 768000 XP. More then enough.

[Jack_Simth]

It is a bad idea. There is quite a chance that 10lvl party would be totally disintegrated before it could kill 40HD pyroclast dragon. And if they succeeded they would get inst-win and very boring game until they hit epics. Well, I'm too lazy to calculate ton of XP for killing the dragon. Perhaps the party would step to 20th level the moment they kill the dragon.

P.S. I forget for a moment about laziness and calculated XP reward: 768000 XP. More then enough.

Nah. There's a little-known rule in the 3.5 DMG that prevents leveling twice at once. If you're level 10, and you get enough XP to get to level 20 all in one go, then you end up 1 xp shy of level 12. A crafter, however, can immediately start crafting away the excess XP if they want (otherwise it's lost).

[Bohandas]

A cow or bull. This allows you to bypass the whole skulking around digging up graveyards thing.

[ayvango]

Nah. There's a little-known rule in the 3.5 DMG that prevents leveling twice at once.
If you refuse paying players for their work, then they would refuse to do it. So they would avoid your overpowered encounters.

[Jack_Simth]

If you refuse paying players for their work, then they would refuse to do it. So they would avoid your overpowered encounters.Context.

Considering the dragon in question that they're seeking out to make it a corpse so they can animate the body would be a CR 22 critter anyway, that 10th level party is off the XP charts and getting add hock XP only anyway.

[ayvango]

10th level party is off the XP charts and getting add hock XP only anyway.
And the note states that something is off with your game in that case. I could imagine route that would lead 2 11th level wizards to sure killing single CR 22 dragon. It means that there is something strange with the D&D 3.5 itself and you should switch off from it. So even the DMG says you: use 3.5 no more, it is broken

[Quertus]

Why not just take vest of the archmagi as a birthday present? Backstory is universal excuse to attaining any game-breaking wealth. Dead dragon body is valuable and rare resource, there is no way it would be granted to player just as a birthday gift.

I'm sorry if your family doesn't know how to give good gifts. :smalltongue:

And just how much are dead people worth? Dead giants? Has any necromancer ever paid for his corpses out of his WBL? There just isn't good math in 3e for the value of a corpse. Otherwise, I would have said buy the corpse with your WBL.

But, there is math for the value of a slave. Thus, I included the actually incredibly broken idea of just starting with a live dragon.

Or, buy the zombie dragon at (the much cheaper) slave prices, then turn it, and/or kill and reanimate it. Perhaps get it at a "some assembly required" discount (one argument for a RAW method to determine the value of a corpse).

Still a solvable problem. :smallwink:

[Eldariel]

And the note states that something is off with your game in that case. I could imagine route that would lead 2 11th level wizards to sure killing single CR 22 dragon. It means that there is something strange with the D&D 3.5 itself and you should switch off from it. So even the DMG says you: use 3.5 no more, it is broken

You don't need to kill one, you need to find a body for which Locate Object, Teleport, Scry, etc. are perfectly sufficient by level 9. Or self-crafted body. Fighting a Great Wyrm at that stage is a bit meh if the Great Wyrm is played at all like the world had any internal consistency.

[Talothorn]

No, you just need a statue of whatever kind of dragon you want and a Stone to Flesh scroll.


The spell also can convert a mass of stone into a fleshy substance. Such flesh is inert and lacking a vital life force unless a life force or magical energy is available. (For example, this spell would turn a stone golem into a flesh golem, but an ordinary statue would become a corpse.).

[ayvango]

No, you just need a statue of whatever kind of dragon you want and a Stone to Flesh scroll.



This spell turns the bones or bodies of dead creatures
statue was never a creature. So its body doesn't suit.

[unseenmage]

By the description above a corpse of a Drakestone Golem (Draconomicon) could be glued back together via Fabricate or similar then Stone to Flesh could give you a draconic corpse...

[ayvango]

Constructs are no good for zombies:



The corpse must be that of a creature with a true anatomy

But golem has no true anatomy.

[Pugwampy]

My favorite DM thought a mega raptor would make an extremely useful skeleton .

.........not sure why .

[Talothorn]

statue was never a creature. So its body doesn't suit.

But Stone to Flesh doesn't turn a statue into a chunk of statue shaped meat. it turns it into a *corpse*.



"The spell also can convert a mass of stone into a fleshy substance. Such flesh is inert and lacking a vital life force unless a life force or magical energy is available. (For example, this spell would turn a stone golem into a flesh golem, but an ordinary statue would become a corpse.).


Targets: One or more corpses touched

Doesn't work on stone golems, as they specifically become flesh golems. Would work on a statue.

[Quertus]

No, you just need a statue of whatever kind of dragon you want and a Stone to Flesh scroll.


statue was never a creature. So its body doesn't suit.

To expand on this idea, could one create a new species by sculpting a statute of the creature, then casting Stone to Flesh, then resurrecting it?

[Mr Adventurer]

Well, depends whether the rules treat "a corpse" the same as "a dead creature". Perhaps they don't.

[ayvango]

Targets: One or more corpses touched
That is indeed the target. But spell descriptions establishes additional conditions. I believe if you had several conditions, then you should fulfil them all. And being body of dead creature are required in addition to being corpse. To make sure, that there is no cheating.



To expand on this idea, could one create a new species by sculpting a statute of the creature, then casting Stone to Flesh, then resurrecting it?

Nope. D&D setting is platonic. It establishes all available lifeforms. And some of them are just temporary unknown to character. So he could only implement these ideas and nothing out them. All nature's diversity is pre-arranged. Just like there are only five platonic solids. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Quertus]

Nope. D&D setting is platonic. It establishes all available lifeforms. And some of them are just temporary unknown to character. So he could only implement these ideas and nothing out them. All nature's diversity is pre-arranged. Just like there are only five platonic solids. Nothing more, nothing less.

Eh, no. 2e D&D Necromancy explicitly had spells to modify creatures and create new species. Genesis Origin of Species: Achaierai is a 3e spell which shows that at least epic magic can create new species whole cloth.

So, no, D&D has never been nor is platonic.

[unseenmage]

That is indeed the target. But spell descriptions establishes additional conditions. I believe if you had several conditions, then you should fulfil them all. And being body of dead creature are required in addition to being corpse. To make sure, that there is no cheating.


Nope. D&D setting is platonic. It establishes all available lifeforms. And some of them are just temporary unknown to character. So he could only implement these ideas and nothing out them. All nature's diversity is pre-arranged. Just like there are only five platonic solids. Nothing more, nothing less.
Templates and the stacking thereof make this a no.
There's also likely a bunch of text in the DMG and similar advising GMs to make creatures up on the fly.

Heck, just Animate Objects lets you create new versions of that construct almost innumerably just bt rearranging the materials.

Combined with Incarnate Construct and viola, new skin colors of giants and humanoids all over the place. New "races" even if skin color is one of your determining criteria for race.

[Sinewmire]

Well, in our level 3 campaign, my undeath cleric ally has just raised as a zombie the Forest Drake we killed. Quite a step up from his skeletal horse!