Why are saving throws against artifacts so low?

[King of Nowhere]

Artifacts are supposedly very powerful, and most of them actually are (a few exceptions), even though most of the times they are awfully unpractical to use, or relying on very specific circumstances (a sphere of annihilation moves slowly, just stay away from it; it also destroys all loot. A talisman of pure good/evil requires the enemy to be a cleric of opposite alignment lacking any kind of flight capacity. and so on).
Yet, all those that cast spells tend to have pitifully low DC to the saving throws. Talisman of pure good/evil? DC 19 to save. Eye and hand of Vecna? DC 20 all powers, 25 if you have both. Globe of dragon? DC 25. Hammer of thunders? DC 12. I am limited to artifacts on the DM guide, I don't know if other sources are different.
The point is, at the levels artifacts are in play, every self-respecting spellcaster with a modicum of optimization will be sporting a +10 in his casting stat, potentially reaching even +15. Saving throws DC above 30 are not unusual. At the same time, you can count on all characters oof that level to have around +20 to most saving throws, and some higher.
Why those uber-powerful items can do stuff that no other magic can conjure, but they are resisted more easily than most spells by powerful mortal casters? It makes no sense.

[AuraTwilight]

Because all those artifacts are Core, and WOTC didn't know how powerful 3e characters could optimize their numbers yet.

[Calthropstu]

Because all those artifacts are Core, and WOTC didn't know how powerful 3e characters could optimize their numbers yet.

Other artifacts produced later have similar dcs. However, look at the saving throws of the most powerful creatures in the game. A dc similar to a high level caster would likely produce something with infinite use that could wreck almost any monster.
Bit silly, that.

[Florian]

Why those uber-powerful items can do stuff that no other magic can conjure, but they are resisted more easily than most spells by powerful mortal casters? It makes no sense.

Shows the basic flaw in the d20 system. It´s less the artifacts or specific magic items that are the problem, but rather the design decision to generate spell DCs (and similiar things) based on attributes and such.

[Calthropstu]

Shows the basic flaw in the d20 system. It´s leöss the artifacts or specific magic items that are the problem, but rather the design decision to generate spell DCs (and similiar things) based on attributes and such.

I don't think that is a flaw. In fact, it's probably 3.5's most popular feature. They probably should have put a cap on it though, only able to be transcended by epic creatures. It does look like they expected the max stat to be around 30-35 for pcs originally, but people blew through that.

[grarrrg]

Maybe because Artifacts are incredibly old and ancient magic and the magic is wearing off?

[King of Nowhere]

Because all those artifacts are Core, and WOTC didn't know how powerful 3e characters could optimize their numbers yet.

that seems the most likely actual reason


Maybe because Artifacts are incredibly old and ancient magic and the magic is wearing off?

This could be a reasonable in-game justification

[Deophaun]

...and the magic is wearing off?
I prefer the opposite explanation. Artifacts are incredibly powerful items with a purpose. Their full power is realized in furtherance of that specific purpose, where they basically autowin at whatever that is.

The things in the stat block, however, are incidental to that purpose. It's magical leakage that you have conscripted to do a relatively paltry amount of work compared to what the artifact is capable of.

[Crake]

I prefer the opposite explanation. Artifacts are incredibly powerful items with a purpose. Their full power is realized in furtherance of that specific purpose, where they basically autowin at whatever that is.

The things in the stat block, however, are incidental to that purpose. It's magical leakage that you have conscripted to do a relatively paltry amount of work compared to what the artifact is capable of.

Kinda like how the annulus can just annihilate psionic creatures, but otherwise it's just a glorified stone ring with some minor powers?

[Necroticplague]

Why those uber-powerful items can do stuff that no other magic can conjure, but they are resisted more easily than most spells by powerful mortal casters? It makes no sense.
Simple: Artifacts are still, for the most part, magic items. Very powerful magic items, but still magic items. And magic items, as a whole, tend to have painfully low DCs. Thus, keeping them consistent with* other magic items means making their DCs painfully low.

*=note: consistent with does not mean 'balanced with/against' or 'similarly powerful to'. I mean consistent, in this case, the same way that the rules for building level 5 and level 15 characters are consistent.

[Acanous]

we aren't supposed to have 3-5 prestige classes and ridiculous save shennanigans because we all true polymorphed into Solars and got Ruin Delver's Fortune as an at will spell like ability from a magical location.

That's basically it.

Wizards balanced the first batch of artefacts based on their (limited) playtesting, and subsequent artefacts were balanced based on preexisting artefacts.

So your lv 15 sorcadin with +52 to Fortitude, 30 to will and 34 reflex just wasn't something they were prepared for.
IIRC the highest save DC anywhere in a printed 3.5 book is 42.

[Necroticplague]

we aren't supposed to have 3-5 prestige classes and ridiculous save shennanigans because we all true polymorphed into Solars and got Ruin Delver's Fortune as an at will spell like ability from a magical location.

That's basically it. Except it doesn't take that level of extreme optimization to have the saves become oddly trivial. A straight Barbarian 20 with out a CON bonus will almost always negate the Hammer of Thunderbolt's stunning (and most barbarians have CON bonuses), and weakest printed giant on the SRD still resists the death affect more often than not.


IIRC the highest save DC anywhere in a printed 3.5 book is 42.

1.Force Dragons, at the least, have Will and FORT saves in the mid-60s, so this statement is factually incorrect.
2.Even if it was, this would still leave it confusing how they think 'the most powerful of objects' is DC 20, when they have something with saves in the 40s.

[Calthropstu]

1.Force Dragons, at the least, have Will and FORT saves in the mid-60s, so this statement is factually incorrect.
2.Even if it was, this would still leave it confusing how they think 'the most powerful of objects' is DC 20, when they have something with saves in the 40s.

He said dcs, not save bonuses.

To be fair, it does make a xertain kind of sense to have the low dcs though. Why would something being chaneled into an item then used to cast be as powerful as a straight cast? Unless magic has some form of lossless medium, it makes sense power waste in the transference from caster to item would be a thing. The most powerful of monsters should be able to laugh at such.

Though I do think artifacts should be different. True artifacts should be channeling things like mythic or divine power. Resisting an item infused directly by a god should not be a simple matter.

[King of Nowhere]

we aren't supposed to have 3-5 prestige classes and ridiculous save shennanigans because we all true polymorphed into Solars and got Ruin Delver's Fortune as an at will spell like ability from a magical location.

That's basically it.

Wizards balanced the first batch of artefacts based on their (limited) playtesting, and subsequent artefacts were balanced based on preexisting artefacts.

So your lv 15 sorcadin with +52 to Fortitude, 30 to will and 34 reflex just wasn't something they were prepared for.
IIRC the highest save DC anywhere in a printed 3.5 book is 42.

You don't need those extreme levels. Just slap a resistance +5 item, which is a mere 25000 gp, and a +6 boost to the stat, which in the case of DEX and CON is pretty useful in any case, and you can get a +8 over the base value. So your average fighter with CON 14 will end up with a saving throw of +22. A wizard with a CON 14 will have +16 to fort. Even a cleric with a DEX penalty will sport a +13 to reflexes. If you need to bolster a weak save you can get another +2 from the feat (especially in core, where there aren't that many useful feats), and there are a few luck bonuses, including from a ioun stone, which doesn't take any inventory slot. And this is not extreme optimization, this is just buying relatively cheap stuff in core.

[Necroticplague]

He said dcs, not save bonuses. In that case, their breath is DC 72, still incorrect.

[noob]

You don't need those extreme levels. Just slap a resistance +5 item, which is a mere 25000 gp, and a +6 boost to the stat, which in the case of DEX and CON is pretty useful in any case, and you can get a +8 over the base value. So your average fighter with CON 14 will end up with a saving throw of +22. A wizard with a CON 14 will have +16 to fort. Even a cleric with a DEX penalty will sport a +13 to reflexes. If you need to bolster a weak save you can get another +2 from the feat (especially in core, where there aren't that many useful feats), and there are a few luck bonuses, including from a ioun stone, which doesn't take any inventory slot. And this is not extreme optimization, this is just buying relatively cheap stuff in core.

I like +5 capes too.
And I am quite sure most high level monsters are tailored around core players either using a boost spell for saves or wearing a +X cape.

[Fizban]

Unsurprisingly, when you compare the highest standard fort save, you get someone who's practically immune to any effect not produced by the direct action of an equivalently powerful actor (no, starting with 14 does not invalidate picking a high fort class with a max save item and max stat boosting item). And if a high level fighter fell over for some chump artifact or poison (or a high level cleric to a will save, or a rogue to reflex) that would be a problem, guess its a good thing they don't. The higher level you get, the more pronounced the save system becomes.

An 18th level character with +5 resistance has all of a +11 standard on their low save, which is easily low enough to worry about an artifact or magic item that only has a DC of 20. Which is why people go gaga for immunities- and a good way to make an artifact unique would be giving it something for which there is no standard immunity, thus making it quite dangerous against the right people. The Talisman of Ultra Good/Evil is a reflex save that only works on divine spellcasters, and all the core divine spellcasters have low reflex saves. A 35% chance to insta-kill even the most powerful cleric with perfectly reasonable targeting conditions is absolutely worth a high level item/minor artifact status. Against lower (as in 10-15th) its quite dangerous, and at higher levels a flunky with one is still a threat you have to respond to (while the real boss is attacking with their own magic).

Other DMG artifacts include the Sphere of Annihilation (famous for having no save), the Hand and Eye of Vecna (paired items that have DC 25 when united, equivalent to a "10th" level spell in item form, and DC 25 will and fort saves will 50/50 even top level characters low save without immunity), Orbs of Dragonkind (DC 25 on dominating their dragon, enough to hit 30%+ against even Adult Red/Gold with no use limit), the Moaning Diamond and Shadowstaff (all no-save summoning/other), and the Sword of Kas's 34 Ego score is nigh unstoppable for anyone with a low-will save.

Save DCs aren't supposed to be so high that people with high saves can't make them, people with high saves are supposed to be highly resistant. Pretty simple. In fact, they're not even supposed to be so high that people with low saves can't make them either, just significantly more vulnerable without serious compensation. The standard save for a top level spellcaster's 9th level spell is 29, which still fails against high save+primary stat, has 55% against high save+resistance only, and goes to 90% for low save+resistance only (subtract +10-15% if you expect ability enhancers on all save stats). Artifacts in the 25-30 range are pretty much exactly where they should be compared to that.

[Florian]

I like +5 capes too.
And I am quite sure most high level monsters are tailored around core players either using a boost spell for saves or wearing a +X cape.

I think the whole core calculation is mainly based around handling various boost spells, with WBL and items being a very disruption later addition.

[ericgrau]

Yet, all those that cast spells tend to have pitifully low DC to the saving throws. Talisman of pure good/evil? DC 19 to save.
It only grants a save if the wielder is not exceptionally pure in thought and deed. Otherwise it's just get "swallowed up forever", no save.

Most artifacts are a little stronger than what you can get from non-epic items. Which is about what you want for an item that affects the campaign yet is defeatable.

And/or many do things that the rules don't handle well and therefore it would be difficult to set a market price. So it's best to set such a thing as an artifact to avoid a abuse, and the only question is if it's lesser or greater.

[Necroticplague]

I think the whole core calculation is mainly based around handling various boost spells, with WBL and items being a very disruption later addition.

If that was true, they wouldn’t have designed any of he mundane classes the way they did (I.e, requiring magic items to make up for their weaknesses).

[Acanous]

In that case, their breath is DC 72, still incorrect.

Huh. I have never seen these and yet they're in the SRD. What book are they from? I seem to have missed something important

[Mordaedil]

Epic Level Handbook.

[Acanous]

I thought the ELH was a 3.0 book.

After some checking, it is, though a 3.5 "Update" was released on the WotC site.

Ok, point stands, I did specify printed book and 3.5 :p

But these things are around, so that's good to know.

[Fizban]

I don't think I've heard of a non-epic artifact DC above 40- I don't usually pay much attention to artifacts in general, but even seeing a 30 on an item tends to stand out.