High LA stats for pure fighters / barbarians?

[Tyger]

OK, I know the golden rule is that you never apply a high LA to any casting class, as you will lose caster levels. But what about with pure melee folks?

For example, the Half-Dragon / Half Human template...

+8 STR
+2 CON
+2 INT
+2 CHA
+4 NA
Immunity to (element appropriate to dragon type)
Breath Weapon, etc.

All for LA+3.

Now, if a level 8 character has this template, his modified AB is going to be one higher than if he was just human (+4 to hit for the STR) and he's doing more damage. His AC is better, all round tougher.

The Half-Fiend is even more interesting, with its DR/Magic and flight...

So really, a half-dragon fighter is giving up what?? a few feats (2 I think) and 3 levels of HP, but adding in one extra HP per level anyway, which over the course of a character's life may well balance out. Right?

[Ozymandias]

Well, a compared to a Fighter 11, a Half-Dragon Fighter 8 gives up a bonus feat, (and another next level if both continue going Fighter) and three points of BAB, including one extra attack, which he/she'll not get until level 10. LA is much poorer, though, when it's levels in a strong class (Cleric, Druid, Wizard et al) who have exponentially increasing class benefits and spellcasting.

Edit: Oh yeah, saves and HD. Those are important as well.

[Overlard]

The loss of hd hurts, there's no way around that. You lose a lot of hp, and you've got lower saves too. Losing feats and skill points is no picnic either.

I ran a half-dragon/half-human fighter/barbarian from level 6 to 13. It was fun, and he did a lot of damage, but he was an easy target for spells. He was dominated on several occasions, and energy spells that weren't fire-based screwed him over.

But the feeling of critting while power attacking for full with a greataxe and a strength of 28 is pretty magnificent.

[bugsysservant]

Meh, I've never been a fan of high LA templates, ever. If you want a high powered template, try mineral warrior. +2 str. +4 con., DR 8 adamantine +3 natural armor, gives you a burrow speed, and a few other goodies. Admitedly, you lose any ability to fly and -2 to all mental stats, but I consider that a good expenditure for +1 LA. Mineral Warrior (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e)

[CASTLEMIKE]

I like the +0LA races which gives you a little something extra usually at minmial cost. The planetouched is a pretty good example unless you are in a heavy duty planar style campaign.

The +1 LAs are really nice with level buydown at level 3 leveling up to level 4 (4,000 exp) particularly with higher level experience point builds.

Something like +2 LA Half Fey or Phrenic is nice with a Sorcerer or Educated Wilder.

The UA/D20 SRD Blood lines are nice with higher level builds because they have their own unique level buydown method.

[Orzel]

Melee folk tend to do better with LA since high level base class features tend to stink. Especially Monstrous humanoids who get full BAB and giant who get stupid strength ability.

I ran a centaur ranger for a forest and dungeon crawl. LA +2 and 4 M Humanoid HDs for 8 Strength, +4 Dexterity, +4 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, 50 speed, Darkvision and large size. Did better than the minotaur fighter on the team.

[Stephen_E]

Getting Regen for a Melee spec is also very strong.

Trolls are worth the +5LA, but the 6 Racial HD in addition hurts some.
Their saves don't hurt because they get +12 Con and +4 Dex. Will doesn't matter because Fighter Will saves are so crap it doesn't matter. -
"My will save is 3 better than yours". "Yeah, I need a 20 to make the save. What do you need?" "I need a 20 as well".

Ogres are well worth it. They have 4 Racial HD, but only LA +2, which means you can buy it off by Lev 13-14. +10 Str, +4 Con. The -4 Int is a bit of a headache, but you can manage it by putting a 13 into it and getting a headband of Intellect +4.

Edit - Pixies are also awesome Barbarian/Fighters, well worth the +4LA if you go for the Spiked Chain. But then anyone who's seen my previous support for Pixie fighters will know all about it. :smallbiggrin:

Stephen

[brian c]

Getting Regen for a Melee spec is also very strong.

Trolls are worth the +5LA, but the 6 Racial HD in addition hurts some.
Their saves don't hurt because they get +12 Con and +4 Dex. Will doesn't matter because Fighter Will saves are so crap it doesn't matter. -
"My will save is 3 better than yours". "Yeah, I need a 20 to make the save. What do you need?" "I need a 20 as well".

Ogres are well worth it. They have 4 Racial HD, but only LA +2, which means you can buy it off by Lev 13-14. +10 Str, +4 Con. The -4 Int is a bit of a headache, but you can manage it by putting a 13 into it and getting a headband of Intellect +4.

Edit - Pixies are also awesome Barbarian/Fighters, well worth the +4LA if you go for the Spiked Chain. But then anyone who's seen my previous support for Pixie fighters will know all about it. :smallbiggrin:

Stephen

Speaking of Ogres, I know I've mentioned this several times before but the Half-Ogre is a great LA+2 race. Size and 10ft reach, +str and +con, only -2 dex and -2 int (i think), charisma doesn't matter, and you get natural armor too. As a grapple-monk, fighter or barbarian it's great (and I suppose any other melee class besides paladin it would be very good)

[Anxe]

I played a Half-celestial Ranger once. It was like playing a paladin and a ranger at the same time. Awesome stuff. The flying thing from these templates is well worth throwing a few levels at them in my opinion.

[SadisticFishing]

Goliath is good. +4 str, +2 con, -2 dex, and you get to use a bigger weapon - all for the measly price of LA+1.

[martyboy74]

Voidmind (MM3) is fairly nice. It gives you +s to everything by charisma, a couple of feats, a tentacle sticking out of your forehead that you can turn into a cone of paralyzing goo, immunity to ability damage, drain and mind-affecting spells and abilities, along with some other stuff. All for only LA +3.

Imagine never needing to worry about going into a coma for some mental stat related reason, and never needing to worry about being charmed or dominated!

[OverdrivePrime]

Yeah, but who wants to play a character with some disgusting tentacle flopping out of their forehead? Yeuch. Besides hit points, most of these lower LA+ templates are a pretty even trade. Most of the additions make up for the loss in saves and BAB for non casters (or light casters such as Pally and Ranger).

One of my players played a half-fey bard (I use level adjustment buyback rules) and it was pretty sick. Rarely did his targets fail their saves.

[MeklorIlavator]

I played a Half-celestial Ranger once. It was like playing a paladin and a ranger at the same time. Awesome stuff. The flying thing from these templates is well worth throwing a few levels at them in my opinion.

Depends. This was a high level adventure right? Well, I would say that from ecl 5-7, your going to be too fragile, unless your doing archery, in which case to depends on the enemies. Trust me, we had a fighter half celestial in a ecl 5 campaign, and he couldn't take 1 hit before going into the dying state.