Marvel: 2018 Edition

[t209]

So let's see
- Marvel finally realizing that trying to make *cough* unholy spawn of Zeon (Tomino's not being dumb enough to make them good guys), Titan Corp (again Tomino's ingenuity), and Tau minus their benign nature (Inhumans) gassing people is a bad idea after like a year and a bad TV show. Also no oppressed people change from being gassed.
- Generations was like "hey look at out new characters, your old character sucks".
- New Marvel cartoon with Nu Humans vs. Hala.
Let's discuss.

[Rater202]

I'm only reading All-New Wolverine, Unbeatable Squirrel Girl, Spider-Gwen, and Runaways right now so most of that stuff doesn't really affect me.

I'm technically following Venom, but depending on how Venom Inc ends that might stop.

[Metahuman1]

In other news, all the things I'm suppose to think were great development for Peter Parker that totally 100% validated the existence of One More Day and invalidated my refusal to give the company that published it my money,


Have been totally wiped away.







On the bright side, Axel Alanso is gone, and with luck, all of his supporters in the marvel offices will be purged in the near future, and replaced with people who have some aptitude as writers, artist/illustrators, and editors, and the ability to keep there personal politics to themselves most of the time.




And Disney getting Fox means were now trying to stop hosing the X-men and Replacing them with Inhumans, so, that's a plus.

[Cute Earth]

I got a decent number of Marvel comics I’m reading right now:
America, Black Panther, Champions, Generation X, my fave right now has to be Iceman. I’m also reading Invincible Iron Man, Ms. Marvel, She-Hulk, and my forever fav Squirrel Girl.

[t209]

And Disney getting Fox means were now trying to stop hosingg3-cannistering the X-men and Replacing them with Inhumans, so, that's a plus.
I think gassing might be a better term.

https://i.imgur.com/ZZqniUt.jpg]
I mean both of them like to gas people.
Yes, Zeta do great preachy about feminism but it didn't get in the way of a good story telling.
Let's see....
https://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/6961887.html#cutid1
Oh, they finally figured it out after a year and a good writer who actually had more than common sense.
You know how much it took to make and proved that AEUG are good guys, ONE EPISODE OF TITANS GASSING AN ENTIRE COLONY AND SHOOTING A GLASS-ENCASED MOM IN SPACE.

[KillingAScarab]

I got a decent number of Marvel comics I’m reading right now:
America, Black Panther, Champions, Generation X, my fave right now has to be Iceman. I’m also reading Invincible Iron Man, Ms. Marvel, She-Hulk, and my forever fav Squirrel Girl.Unfortunately, all the bolded titles have been cancelled. Along with the cancellation of Guardians of the Galaxy and rolling U.S. Avengers into all other Avengers teams, this reduced my Marvel pulls to... erm... *only*
Team books:
Amazing Spider-Man: Renew Your Vows
Champions
Monsters Unleashed
X-Men: Blue

Solo classic heroes:
Ben Reilly: Scarlet Spider
Black Bolt
Captain Marvel
Doctor Strange
Unbeatable Squirrel Girl

Solo legacy heroes:
All-New Wolverine
Invincible Iron Man
Mighty Thor
Ms. Marvel
Spider-Man
the occasional Incrdedible Hulk when Greg Land isn't the illustrator

Solo "new" heroes:
Spider-Gwen


When I arrange it this way, I believe what I'm seeing is an opportunity for the cancelled books to form a new team, and for Jubilee, Bling! and Quentin Quire to get solo books.

[Cute Earth]

Unfortunately, all the bolded titles have been cancelled. Along with the cancellation of Guardians of the Galaxy and rolling U.S. Avengers into all other Avengers teams, this reduced my Marvel pulls to Ben Reilly: Scarlet Spider, Black Bolt, Captain Marvel, Champions, Doctor Strange, Invincible Iron Man, Mighty Thor, Ms. Marvel, Spider-Gwen, Spider-Man, Unbeatable Squirrel Girl, X-Men: Blue, and the occassional Incrdedible Hulk when Greg Land isn't the illustrator. I wish Jean Grey was going to be allowed to continue, but that does not seem to be the case.

That’s disappointing, but kinda how Marvel comics has been running lately, so not entirely surprising.

[Metahuman1]

t209: Bottom line though, they do appear to have begun abandoning the plan on that mess. Probably for the best.


I'm told there's a good Daredevil run going on ATM.








And while they may have canceled America, on the bright side, there's a chance a better writer will get a crack at it now. Seriously, get like a Neil Gaiman / Jim Lee team on that character and just watch them go to town. (I'm sorry but Gabby Revaria (I have no idea how to spell that name and spell check is not helping.)is, frankly, a sub par writer. The character has potential, but the execution of that potential in that solo book left a LOT to be desired.)


Meanwhile though, DC is just CRUSHING them in terms of quality comics right now. (Rebirth, the current Superman Run, Super Son's, Batman: White Knight, Nightwing: New Order (Admittedly I haven't gotten to that one yet but everything I've heard has been good so far.), Super Woman, Teen Titans, Mister Miracle, and on and on and on.).

[Rater202]

Honsestly, the only stuff I outright dislike with current Marvel is that 1: They made Eddie Brock Venom again, which will inevitably invalidate all of the symbiote's character development with Flash,and 2: The Despicable Deadpool crap.

ain't nobody holding what Stevil did against real Cap, so people really shouldn't think that bad of Deadpool because his logic for joining Hydra was "1: In every Hero v Hero conflict, Cap's sideis always proven to be in the right" and "2:Everytime someone says that Cap is evil or wrong, it turns out they're the ones who are evil and wrong."

Basically, Deadpool's life fell to crap because Secret Empire was the first and only time "side with Captain America" wasn't the right choice.

I can even accept Parker Industries collapsing since it was ultimately Pete deciding to burn everything rather than let HYDRA get their hands on PI's Tech(Considering that PI's genetic research made Itsy-Bitsy, not letting Supervillains get their hands on PI tech is smart.)

It's just... most of the stuff doesn't really interest me enough to devote time to following it regularly... Though I've heard good things about the Kamala Kahn Miss Marvel, so I might look into her title.

(I'm cautiously optomistic about the Runaways ongoing, though I'm a bit concerned by the current author's stated dislike for Volumes 2 and 3 and about how so far nobody has shown any concern for Klara being in foster care despite the previous volumes treating that as a bad thing, with Karalina even having been given to a foster family that was strong out on pills, and with a time traveling mutant from 1907 who is also an immigrant and a victim of emotional abuse and rape being the exact kind of child who absolutly would not do well is foster care.)

[Metahuman1]

I lost any respect I had for Khamala Khan when she decided to go full fascist during Secret Empire. That character is effectively dead to me.






And the crapping on Deadpool is people that don't like that Deadpool wasn't conforming ENOUGH to what they wanted, wanting to crap on his popularity as a character. Sort of like Peter's life falling apart NOW is because Dan Slott, the writer, only writes for the character because it lets him use the character to beat people about the head on social media with the weight behind him of "I'm the current guy in charge of writing for SPIDER MAN!" with his political positions. That's it. He has clearly shown and stated, more then once, in public forums, that he holds disdain for

The Medium in General,

The Fans,

The Audience At Large,

The Character,

The characters history, legacy, canon and mythos,

And the universe that character exists in.






Frankly the faster the new Editor in Chief can get the lions share of the people currently working for marvel axed and replace with people who do not have similar though processes, and then do a major event to undo about 85-90% of what has been done with marvel for the last 10 years, the better off the company and books and characters and fans will all be.

[KillingAScarab]

Metahuman1, since DC Rebirth has been going on for nearly two years (https://comicbookreadingorders.com/dc/dc-rebirth-reading-order-part-1/), if the event does mean anything it seems a bit unwieldy by this point. I picked up some Blue Beetle and some Batman Beyond toward the start(?) of it, and my curiosity was satisfied. The 2015 Secret Wars gave writers the excuse that the Marvel Universe was mostly put back the same, but things could be different and we'll get to those differences later. I prefer that. The Infinity Gems/Stones were only being poked at last year, so there are still rocks to turn over.

[Metahuman1]

Go read Mr. Miracle and Super Sons, you'll get a MUCH better taste of the variety I think. And certainly better then Anything I've seen out of Marvel since Secret Wars. There's literally nothing that even begins to be a comparison.

[KillingAScarab]

Go read Mr. Miracle and Super Sons, you'll get a MUCH better taste of the variety I think. And certainly better then Anything I've seen out of Marvel since Secret Wars. There's literally nothing that even begins to be a comparison.Actually, if I were going to pick up anything from DC, I might be looking for Wonder Woman recommendations. But, as I got back into Marvel after Secret Wars, I can say I have enjoyed quite a bit of it. X-Men '92 vol 2 had so much bear-punching and a good ending. Dennis Hopeless' All-New X-Men, particularly for bringing back the Goblin Queen just to watch the world burn. I didn't enjoy Inhumans vs. X-Men, but that series gave me headcanon which made it better, and the 2nd tie-in introduced me to Mosaic (whose solo series was worth a read). It was also great to see Beast trying to learn magic from Doctor Strange, though I am a bit disappointed with Cullen Bunn's follow-up in X-Men: Blue. That said, Cullen Bunn's dialog for Scragg is one of the best parts of Monsters Unleashed. Saladin Ahmed's Black Bolt made me care about the Absorbing Man. Champions #12 won the Cyclops Has a Good Day category for the 2017 Super Doctor Astronaut Peter Corbeau Awards for Excellence in X-cellence (http://www.xplainthexmen.com/2018/01/as-mentioned-in-episode-178-giant-size-special-6/), and rightfully so. And of course, All-New Wolverine had Honey Badger (https://imgur.com/gallery/ZrRw8).

[Metahuman1]

Actually, if I were going to pick up anything from DC, I might be looking for Wonder Woman recommendations. But, as I got back into Marvel after Secret Wars, I can say I have enjoyed quite a bit of it. X-Men '92 vol 2 had so much bear-punching and a good ending. Dennis Hopeless' All-New X-Men, particularly for bringing back the Goblin Queen just to watch the world burn. I didn't enjoy Inhumans vs. X-Men, but that series gave me headcanon which made it better, and the 2nd tie-in introduced me to Mosaic (whose solo series was worth a read). It was also great to see Beast trying to learn magic from Doctor Strange, though I am a bit disappointed with Cullen Bunn's follow-up in X-Men: Blue. That said, Cullen Bunn's dialog for Scragg is one of the best parts of Monsters Unleashed. Saladin Ahmed's Black Bolt made me care about the Absorbing Man. Champions #12 won the Cyclops Has a Good Day category for the 2017 Super Doctor Astronaut Peter Corbeau Awards for Excellence in X-cellence (http://www.xplainthexmen.com/2018/01/as-mentioned-in-episode-178-giant-size-special-6/), and rightfully so. And of course, All-New Wolverine had Honey Badger (https://imgur.com/gallery/ZrRw8).

While I have not read all of those, I will agree that X-men 92 is fairly solid so far, if only because they have been forced by the powers the be to pretend like they give a damn and are competent.

Something most of the rest of the MU are severely lacking at present, but is going on over at DC in spades. There is a reason so much of Marvels Talent have been jumping ship and going over there for the last decade.

[Starbuck_II]

Unfortunately, all the bolded titles have been cancelled. Along with the cancellation of Guardians of the Galaxy and rolling U.S. Avengers into all other Avengers teams, this reduced my Marvel pulls to... erm... *only*
Team books:
Amazing Spider-Man: Renew Your Vows
Champions
Monsters Unleashed
X-Men: Blue

Solo classic heroes:
Ben Reilly: Scarlet Spider
Black Bolt
Captain Marvel
Doctor Strange
Unbeatable Squirrel Girl

Solo legacy heroes:
All-New Wolverine
Invincible Iron Man
Mighty Thor
Ms. Marvel
Spider-Man
the occasional Incrdedible Hulk when Greg Land isn't the illustrator

Solo "new" heroes:
Spider-Gwen


When I arrange it this way, I believe what I'm seeing is an opportunity for the cancelled books to form a new team, and for Jubilee, Bling! and Quentin Quire to get solo books.

Yes, I love Ben Reilly: Scarlet Spider, although Kaine's been less who he was in it. He was a guy who had no issue with killing, but he wasn't totally blood thirsty before. Maybe he changed when he got out of the cocoon in Spiderverse.
I did like how Death seems to like Ben.


Unbeatable Squirrel Girl finally been beaten. :smalltongue:

Champions was better when Gwenpoole was in it.

Gwenpool's getting surreal lately. Though still a good reason sadly it is ending.

I've never read Spider: Renew Your Vows is it any good?

[t209]

I've never read Spider: Renew Your Vows is it any good?
Well, it did have Spiderman's life as a family man that the fans will close to get with One More Day and brief appearance of Spidergirl in Spiderverse and Web Warriors Spider Gwen and her shallow friends.

[KillingAScarab]

Yes, I love Ben Reilly: Scarlet Spider, although Kaine's been less who he was in it. He was a guy who had no issue with killing, but he wasn't totally blood thirsty before. Maybe he changed when he got out of the cocoon in Spiderverse.
I did like how Death seems to like Ben.I never read much of Kaine's Scarlet Spider series. I was pleasantly surprised that the Slingers came back. The last I saw of any of them was in the Marvel Ultimate Alliance 2 video game, which was based upon Civil War, and Prodigy was awful in that.


Unbeatable Squirrel Girl finally been beaten. :smalltongue:Not that I have seen. Would you be referring to Sorcerer Supreme Loki's illusions?


I've never read Spider: Renew Your Vows is it any good?


Well, it did have Spiderman's life as a family man that the fans will close to get with One More Day and brief appearance of Spidergirl in Spiderverse and Web Warriors Spider Gwen and her shallow friends.I didn't read any of the Secret Wars series, I have been reading the ongoing series (http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Amazing_Spider-Man:_Renew_Your_Vows_Vol_2). For the 1st 12 issues, Anna-May Parker is a pre-teen. The current story takes place after an 8 year jump. I like that they decided not to dwell too long on Annie being a superpowered child, although there are some really great moments which came from that. In this alternate timeline, not only did Peter and Mary Jane stay together and raise a family, but Scott Summers became somewhat disillusioned with Charles Xavier, yet is still a member of the X-Men. Scott and Jean Grey broke up. Logan and Jean got together and had a kid. I'm not a big fan of that couple, but I like the idea of an Xavier school where Scott can still live there. It means that Charles Xavier probably wasn't a slave owner (https://uncannyxmen.net/comics/issue/astonishing-x-men-3rd-series-12), *grumble*Whedon*grumble*. So, Peter and Mary Jane get an invite for Annie to Xavier's and have to spend some time considering whether she actually would be better off with other children with super powers, and they have some strong opinions.

Another good point is an arc which runs throughout that portion of the series. Harry Osborne had a son, who is still a child but has inherited the family haircut, the company, and an obsession with the Spider family. It concludes the pre-teen portion of the series, and I liked the way it was handled. There's a giant robot fight, because why wouldn't you have a giant robot fight when you can have a giant robot fight?

In between, there's a point where Mary Jane had the Venom symbiote, which is something I have wanted for years, but it felt rushed to me. It was during a time when everything had a Venom tie-in leading up to Venomverse. There were also a bunch of Mary Jane covers, one of which makes it noticeable that this version of the spider logo (http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/File:Amazing_Spider-Man_Renew_Your_Vows_Vol_2_8.jpg) on the costume is quite close to the lines on Black Bolt's costume (http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/File:Black_Bolt_Vol_1_2_Mary_Jane_Variant_Textless .jpg).
On the subject of the Mary Jane covers, here's a bit of prophecy (https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/0/05/Hulk_Vol_4_7_Mary_Jane_Variant.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20170320224243) for you. *sigh* I'm going to buy the last issues of Mariko Tamaki's run, and I'm going to miss it when it's gone. Not as much as I will miss Christina Strain's Generation X, though.

[BiblioRook]

When I saw who made the thread I thought "I bet he mentions Tau in the first post". Sucker bet really.

I'm actually on a bit of a Marvel hiatus at the moment so I'm basically completely out of touch with everything from Secret Empires and onward. Comic hiatus in general really, not just Marvel, as it's mostly due to losing access to comics much in the way I used to but just feeling a bit out of it also honestly played no small part.


1: They made Eddie Brock Venom again, which will inevitably invalidate all of the symbiote's character development with Flash

I know right? I'm glad I'm not the only person that had an issue with that. The only upside is that Eddie is still a huge improvement on that other guy who ended up with the Venom symbiote post-Flash (who's name I can't be bothered to remember considering how horrible he was and how quickly he became irrelevant). Considering that I never was and still remain no fan of Eddie says just how much I hatted that guy, that and I really really enjoyed the Flash/Venom relationship (Not to mention Agent Venom was way cooler then 'classic' Venom ever was or could hope to be). Also Eddie getting Venom again did basically sum up everything Marvel had planned with Legacy, "People don't seem to like the new direction we tried to go with some of our characters so we are just going to revert them to how they used to be, no matter how illogical".

Question on things Venom related though, given how it seems they are giving Venom a lot of focus lately... has Mania come into it at all? I mean that was one of my biggest issues with the whole abrupt separation of Venom from Flash, it felt like they were just about to delve more into the whole Mania thing (another character I really liked) and the whole hell-mark issue when "Nope, never mind that, we're doing this other thing now". Hell related stuff aside it just honestly doesn't make sense to leave her out of things if they are putting so much attention on Venom. Just what is she even doing otherwise? She was far from an inactive character even IF she didn't have a distinct interest on anything that might be going on Venom related...

News of many of the titles I enjoyed being canceled was disappointing but honestly most of them didn't come to much of a surprise. Not that I thought they weren't good enough to continue, more I've grown to accept the fact that if *I* like something odds are the rest of the reading/viewing public doesn't feel the same way. Gwenpool was the one that probably bummed me out the most, that series just really surprised me on how well it ended up being considering how on the surface all it looked like it was nothing more then the mashing up of two popular but unrelated characters and seeing where things went. Didn't Gwenpool herself predict her cancellation at the end of the Evil Gwenpool arch? I wonder of that was an actual tip-off from the writers or just meant as anther throw-away joke about breaking the forth wall.
In any case I've been somewhat jaded on series ending ever since the quick cancellation of one of my favorite recent comics, Unstoppable Wasp. 8 measly issues long. Squirrel Girl seems to be going strong though, which I never would have expected when it first started, so that gives me some hope.

[Rater202]

Question on things Venom related though, given how it seems they are giving Venom a lot of focus lately... has Mania come into it at all? I mean that was one of my biggest issues with the whole abrupt separation of Venom from Flash, it felt like they were just about to delve more into the whole Mania thing (another character I really liked) and the whole hell-mark issue when "Nope, never mind that, we're doing this other thing now". Hell related stuff aside it just honestly doesn't make sense to leave her out of things if they are putting so much attention on Venom. Just what is she even doing otherwise? She was far from an inactive character even IF she didn't have a distinct interest on anything that might be going on Venom related...

Mania was in Venom Inc(Which, as I recently learned, is technically the first official crosover between a Spider-Man title and a Venom title.)

Gist of it is that Lee Price managed to get out of Jail on the technicallity that it was Venom being arrested and Venom wasn't on Price while he was in custody(and also lies about the Sybiote taking control of him and using Eddie's apparent return to crime after having been an FBI affilated Super-Hero prior to rebonding) and then, while Flash was in New York tracking down his Symbiote to get it back, he went to Philly and ambushed Andi: She ended up in the hospital, and Price stole her symbiote and dominated it the way he did Venom.

He then somehow managed to figure out how to ape the thing Carnage used to do where he'd replicate his symbiote and use it to possess a bunch of people and tried to take over the gangs of New York with his ultimate goal being to mind control the 5 families.

In other news, a running theme of Eddie's new term as Venom is that the drugs the FBI gave him to surpress Toxin have mutated him and made his biology midly toxic, which really brings out the anger in Venom. Eddie is taking medicine to, essentially, correct a chemical imabalance that is causing Venom's mental state to deteriorate, but sybiotes evolve over time and the drugs stop being effective after a while, requiring new formulations and stornger doses. Eventually the astrobiologist who makes the drugs bonded one to a sample of the Anti-Venom symbiote that he somehow got and created a huge vat of a drug that should itself evolve over time while preventing Venom from adaptingto the drug.

At this exactmoment, Flash, backin NY for a second go at getting his partner back, confronts Eddie,
the Symbiote can't decide if it should stick with Eddie(Their relationship reads like two people from a mutually abusive relationship trying to get back together and make it work this time, but one of them is afraid to leave when things go sour becuase they've been hurt way worse not long ago) or jump ship back to Flash and tries to bond with both of them.

Then Spider-Manshows up(Peter Parker washelping Flash), assumes the worst, reconginzes the medicine as Anti-Venom, and after confirming that it is dumps the vat, it reacts to the traces of Venom in Flash's system and he becomes a new, more powerful Anti-Venom. Pros: He can be a superhero again.
Con: He can't bond to Venom anymore.

Fighting against Lee Price Happens, Andi gets out of the hospital in record time and shows up to get her Symbiote back. Reminder: The Hellmark is on her now, not Mania, meaning she's got Hellfire Powers.

Price tears apart the Black Cat's criminal empire, infecting them all with Mania(the bit of Mania put in the Scorpion reacts to his powers and the traces of Venom in his system, causing an organic symbiote based scorpion armor to form), goes thorugh with his plan, foiled at the last minute, reabsorbs the pieces of Mania to turn into a 50 Tall Maniac

Final Battle: Spider-Man, The Black Cat, Venom, Anti-Venom, and Mania(Andi keeping the name without her symbiote) Vs 50 Foot Tall Venom. Things go slow, even with weapons coated in the Anti-Venom drug,
until Price tries to infect the Black Cat again and it's discovered that being infected and cured once gives you an immunity to being controlled again. Spider-Man had been infected in an earliar confrontation,
and was bleeding profusly, so he gave some of his blood to Flash and the Anti-Venom symbiote absorbed it and the Anti-Mania antibodies within, giving it a major upgrade and allowing him to rip Price out of Mania.

Afternath: Price is going back to Jail. Flash Thompson is anti-Venom and is apparently the strongest person currently with symbiote powers. Mania was seemingly destroyed, though Price claims that he can still feel it so there's a chance that it'll return in the future and Andi can reclaim it. Andi is bummed out that her Symbiote might have been destroyed, but consoles herself with the knowledge that she's proved that she doesn't need it to be a badass. Eddie is still Venom, but Flash has told him to listen to the Symbiote(becuase it's a good guy, he knows this,) and it's implied that he's going to be keeping an eye on things. The Black Cats criminal organization is in tatters, but a talk she has with Venom implies that she'll be going back to her roots. Hopefully it'll stick and they'll undo her massive character derailment from the last few years.

Hopes: That we'll get an Agent Anti-Venom ongoing or mini in the near future that'll finally deal with The Descent and Andi's Hellmark(As much as I don't want her to become a Hell Lord, her Mark comes from Mephisto and marks her as his heir, esentially. If he either becomes for-real Satan or dies, Andi takes his place... If she took his place, maybe he'd stop trying to ruin Spider-Man'sand more recently Deadpool's lives?)

[Cheesegear]

I am of the opinion that bringing Wolverine (Logan) back, is a Bad Move.

[S_A_M I AM]

I lost any respect I had for Khamala Khan when she decided to go full fascist during Secret Empire. That character is effectively dead to me.

Wait. What happened to Miss Marvel? Did she go Hydra or something? After the Magneto and the Scarlet Witch thing, I'd have thought that I'd have heard about that.

(I haven't really been following comics for the last few years.)

[Rater202]

I am of the opinion that bringing Wolverine (Logan) back, is a Bad Move.

We haven't really seen enough of him back to tell, honestly.

Personally, I'm waiting until he makes an appearance in either Old Man Logan, All-New Wolverine, or otherwise interacts with one of them.

I've got 50 bucks that say he tells Laura to keep being Wolverine if she offers to give him the cowl back, either in a "there are like, three Spider-Men, bub, and there have been at least five Captain Americas" way or a "honestly, you're closer to being a full-on superhero* than I was, you need the hero ID more than I do."

And he and OML are either gonna kill each other or get so drunk.

(His reaction to Gabby is obvious, based on his previous reactions to spunky, stubborn young girl and teen girl hero types. Sarcastic verbal affection and possibly somekind of advice. Unless she calls him grandpa or tells him it was Daken who gave her her code name, which each cause their own awkward.)

*Logan tended to kill a lot of his bad guys, with his titles kinda... dripping with blood and gore, and with how much he smokes, drinks, and curses(not to mention his unhealthy ways of coping with his problems) mean that, for all that he's a decent enough superhero mentor, he's not exactly a good role model. He's closer to Anti-Hero in terms of morality. Laura, however, has sworn off needless killing and is in general acting more like a Cape than a Cowl type hero.

[t209]

Wait. What happened to Miss Marvel? Did she go Hydra or something? After the Magneto and the Scarlet Witch thing, I'd have thought that I'd have heard about that.

(I haven't really been following comics for the last few years.)
Well, she actually oppose Hydra as I know.
I think it had to do with saving NuHumans, which Kamala and her Champions save them from internment camp even though Mutants would be included but Marvel bias (not including their Tau-like caste system and habit of sterilizing people).
Edit: that or the IvX but she did come back to her senses and decided not to gas people. And somehow to make Moongirl smart is to make everyone dumb even though they can build a giant vacuum cleaner and contain it. Maybe it might have stupid making pheromones inside, just like Tau.

[BiblioRook]

Thought of something I think is kind of interesting. A big part of the development of Kamala Khan as Ms. Marvel was her disillusionment of Carol Danvers... from that though it's kind of interesting that to date she never changed her name to distance herself from her. I mean, it's not like Marvel heroes have any inhibition about changing their superhero names (Carol herself went through like what, five?) and even the whole point of Marvel Legacy was that (ironically) they wanted to get away a bit from the idea of Legacy heroes, it probably would have been an opt time for Kamala to go through an identity change of sorts if they ever wanted to maybe establish herself as her own character. Not that I would honestly personally be interesting in seeing that happen, I always thought the whole Captain Marvel fangirling was rather cute and was truly sad when the broken pedestal moment came, just that I'm surprised it's not a route they chose to take.

[Aotrs Commander]

I am of the opinion that bringing Wolverine (Logan) back, is a Bad Move.

Oh, they have actually done that?

Fracking FINALLY.

Along with the possible ending of the anti-mutant/pro-Inhuman movie-franchise based pettiness, I might even be able to start to care about the X-Men titles that Don't Explictly Have Jubilee In Them again, then.




And he and OML are either gonna kill each other or get so drunk.

I would hope "OML dies a gurgling, pointless death in some utterly undramatic fashion and doesn't get even the dignity of a shallow grave," myself.

(Have I mentioned how that was arguably the worst pile of excremental tosh I have had the misfortune of reading in a Wolverine comic? ("Arguably" only because of the time [Richard]head Dakin was allowed to co-opt the title (and I dropped it like hotcakes) and only then if you can judge whether that was actually a "Wolverine" title at that point.") And that only the Battleworld version of Runaways (which I literally burned) was worse, period?

OML I was I point-blank refuse to watch Logan, I don't care how well acted Patrick Stewart and Hugh Jackman make it (and I'm sure they did); not even with the presense of X-23 (and dammit, even if she says Wolverine (II), she'll always be X-23 to me) whom is also among my favourite X-Men.)

I mean, for me, in a pefect world, Old Man Logan would be One More Day'd out of existance - no, I don't mean in the Marvel universe, I mean in THIS one - along with the that Battleworld verson of Runaways; but we don't always get what we want, do we?



*happens to glance upthread and register what he'd only skimmed before*


Generation X,


Unfortunately, all the bolded titles have been cancelled.


OH, FOR FRACK'S SAKE.

(I REALLY HATE having to get my comics online several months behind and thus never know things except by chance or far too late. Thanks for the warning, at least. (It is SO TIRESOME trying to precisely time the window for my subscriptions between when Forbidden Planet opens and closes it's subscription windows...)

Also, that makes it issue, what... #11 of the current run, then...?

(Though to be honest, that current run was very bi-polar; the bits with Jubes and Chamber were great, the bits with the students lacked any kind of engagement whatsoever. I found them all non-entities except Quire (who I intensely dislike) and Bling! (who seems to be acting completely different (and worse) to the prior ahjectiveless X-Men pre-Battleworld.)



Scratch what I just said, Marvel, scratch that.



Does anyone happen to know if Jubilee is appearing in anything else then? (I.e. with the X-Men - but I'll take Avengers or Laura!Wolverine, especially is they let Majorie Liu loose with 'em both)? Or is she once more consigned back to the void?

'Cos if so, Marvel can officially, and finally after a hair under twenty-five years (not counting Transformers in the late 80s') consider itself to have finally used its last remaining chance - literally only the presense of my favourite character in anything, ever, was all that had been getting Marvel any pennies off me for the few years.

[BiblioRook]

If you are talking about recent stuff I believe Jubilee had a notable role in 'Patsy Walker, aka Hellcat', but if you are looking explicitly for current stuff still going on... give it time. I mean Generation X literally only just ended and it might be much to expect them to stick Jubilee in another major role immediately (even A-listers often have a hefty period of down time when a series they are in ends).

That being said, I too really hope Jubilee doesn't go on unused. I mean, I'm still waiting for them to put her in MPQ, they've been pretty good at getting around to adding more X-Men and fan requested characters into the game (Rogue and Gambit being two recent major examples) but they haven't gotten around to Jubs yet? Bah. She better being on the docket is all I'm saying.

[Rater202]

Thought of something I think is kind of interesting. A big part of the development of Kamala Khan as Ms. Marvel was her disillusionment of Carol Danvers... from that though it's kind of interesting that to date she never changed her name to distance herself from her. I mean, it's not like Marvel heroes have any inhibition about changing their superhero names (Carol herself went through like what, five?) and even the whole point of Marvel Legacy was that (ironically) they wanted to get away a bit from the idea of Legacy heroes, it probably would have been an opt time for Kamala to go through an identity change of sorts if they ever wanted to maybe establish herself as her own character. Not that I would honestly personally be interesting in seeing that happen, I always thought the whole Captain Marvel fangirling was rather cute and was truly sad when the broken pedestal moment came, just that I'm surprised it's not a route they chose to take.
Thing is? Kamala as Ms Marvel is a huge draw: Comic shops across the country have reported that once they started carrying Ms. Marvel, young girls and muslim/mid-eastern persons, many of whom had never pruchased comic books before, both started coming in decentnumbers just to buy Kamala's book.

Not only is there a market for her, but it's a relativly untapped market.

Not to mention how well Kamala was accepted even before her first issue came out means that she's obviously the most successful of Marvel's attempts to add diversity(Something to note: A lot of these attempts were following the Miles Morales formula where a Hero is dead or unable to keep being that Hero, and someone else comes in to take over. It worked for Miles, essentially, becuase Ultimate Peter Parker wasn't killed off to make room for Miles, he was killed off to do a "The Hero is dead" story, Miles came later. The Flacon as Cap worked becuase people had wanted a Falcon ongoing for a while, but for a lot of the others they basically 5C-d existing heros to make room for their legacy, which wasn't exactly the smartest move.)

However, having Binged the Entire Run over the last few days, the current storyline is that Kamala is semi-retired from being Miss Marvel and is else-where taking a break for the sake of her mental health after going through some serious crap almost non-stop following The Civil War. She could come back with her own independant ID after all.
(Have I mentioned how that was arguably the worst pile of excremental tosh I have had the misfortune of reading in a Wolverine comic? ("Arguably" only because of the time [Richard]head Dakin was allowed to co-opt the title (and I dropped it like hotcakes) and only then if you can judge whether that was actually a "Wolverine" title at that point.") And that only the Battleworld version of Runaways (which I literally burned) was worse, period? Daken: Dark Wolverine wasn't that bad. It had the Runaways in it and was their first appearance since it got canceled(Chase's broken back apparently got better on it's own.) Where, basically, the plot of this like, four a five issu arc, longer if you count the lead up, is "Daken can't handle this one guy, but he's an acssociate o f the Pride so he tracks down the Runaway's on the grunds that they know how to kill members of the Pride" and they proceed to do most of the work while also telling him off for being a psychopath and not the "real" Wolverine."(And Molly got over her irrational dislike of Logan at somepoint and he's her favorite again, so especially her.)

Granted: That was the only partof Dark Wolverine that I read and I was only reading it for the Runaways, so the quality before and after that might be differant.

Still need to read Avengers AI and Vision to figure out why, exactly, Tony Stark mailed Victor's severed head to Chase and where the rest of his body is.
OML I was I point-blank refuse to watch Logan, I don't care how well acted Patrick Stewart and Hugh Jackman make it (and I'm sure they did); not even with the presense of X-23 (and dammit, even if she says Wolverine (II), she'll always be X-23 to me) whom is also among my favourite X-Men.)When talking to Doctor Strange, Laura basically says that she took up the Mantel to honor Logan and that as long as she's Wolverine, he's not completly dead. ("I'm Laura, I'm X-23, and I'm Wolverine.")

Regardless, "Logan" from what I understand, only has "Logan is Old" in comon with OML. Which makes sense, since Fox doesn't have film rights for The Hulk, Venom, The Inhumans, Hawkeye, Spider-Man's affiliated characters, The Red Skull, or basically anybody who appaeared in OML who wasn't Logan.

As for Jubilee... Well, it's a long shot, but we don't exactly know who the Ninth planned member of X-Men Red is yet.

[Aotrs Commander]

Daken: Dark Wolverine wasn't that bad.

It was. It had Daken in it, for a kick off, and even Majorie Liu couldn't do much with it. Remains the only comics I actually ever threw away. (As opposed, to, y'know, BURNED.)

(And the only fractional reason OML didn't get that was because literally it hada Jubilee cameo in the middle of a drought period and they Killed Her Last .)


Regardless, "Logan" from what I understand, only has "Logan is Old" in comon with OML.

All of the other X-Men are dead (along with all the other mutants), as I am given to understand. The fact that they could ONLY kill all the characters they had access to doesn't redeem it in my eyes, even remotely. Don't care how good a job the lwo leads did (and, again, I'm sure they gave exemplarary performances), a story that starts with "all the characters that got into the superhero genera in the first place, including your very favourite are dead" is a story I will never care to partake in.

[Rater202]

Question: Does the fact that Daken is willing to die for Laura make him better or worse in your eyes.

Because um... He's certainly willing to die for her.

[KillingAScarab]

Well, she actually oppose Hydra as I know.
I think it had to do with saving NuHumans, which Kamala and her Champions save them from internment camp even though Mutants would be included but Marvel bias (not including their Tau-like caste system and habit of sterilizing people).
Edit: that or the IvX but she did come back to her senses and decided not to gas people. And somehow to make Moongirl smart is to make everyone dumb even though they can build a giant vacuum cleaner and contain it. Maybe it might have stupid making pheromones inside, just like Tau.As someone who stopped reading Secret Empire, I was very confused by that 2nd Champions tie-in issue. Ms. Marvel had forgotten her identity while she was imprisoned. The Ms. Marvel series had nothing to do with Secret Empire, which I guess I'm thankful for, so if I had wanted answers on that, I suppose I would have needed to read Secret Warriors. I didn't pick up an issue of that until recently when I found out Mister Sinister was involved, and then the cancellation notice was out for that series, too.

The giant vacuum cleaner idea was being used by The Right in Hopeless' All-New X-Men, but they were collecting bits of the Terrigen Cloud so they could poison mutants. Also featured in that issue (http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/All-New_X-Men_Vol_2_12): an offshoot of the Hand set up in the Amazon rainforest as eco-terrorists, the Green Thumb.


*happens to glance upthread and register what he'd only skimmed before*

OH, FOR FRACK'S SAKE.

(I REALLY HATE having to get my comics online several months behind and thus never know things except by chance or far too late. Thanks for the warning, at least. (It is SO TIRESOME trying to precisely time the window for my subscriptions between when Forbidden Planet opens and closes it's subscription windows...)

Also, that makes it issue, what... #11 of the current run, then...?The cancellations (https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/12/21/victims-marvel-cancellation-bloodbath/) took a lot of people by surprise. Generation X got the legacy renumbering treatment, so the 10th issue was #85 by that convention. It looks like the 12th issue/#87 will be the last one (https://www.newsarama.com/37868-generation-x-ends-in-february.html).


(Though to be honest, that current run was very bi-polar; the bits with Jubes and Chamber were great, the bits with the students lacked any kind of engagement whatsoever. I found them all non-entities except Quire (who I intensely dislike) and Bling! (who seems to be acting completely different (and worse) to the prior ahjectiveless X-Men pre-Battleworld.)I had no prior knowledge of Bling!, but I liked what was happening with her. Ditto Nature Girl, who impressed me from the first by attacking Quentin Quire with waterfowl. Quentin Quire being the one who pushed Morph and Hindsight (don't think he has been assigned that codename in the book, yet) into a heist was also appreciated because I needed to see someone escape by turning into a mandrill.


Question: Does the fact that Daken is willing to die for Laura make him better or worse in your eyes.

Because um... He's certainly willing to die for her.If that's an All-New Wolverine spoiler, I haven't made it out to the local comic and hobby shop, yet. I would appreciate spoiler tags on that one.

[Rater202]

If that's an All-New Wolverine spoiler, I haven't made it out to the local comic and hobby shop, yet. I would appreciate spoiler tags on that one.

More a general character trait, really.

Daken's had a soft spot for Laura for a good long while and the introspection and character development he's been getting since Logan died has emphasized it.

But I'll spoiler the thing anyway just in case.It's um... Questionable if it actually applies to the Orphans of X storyline, he does essentially die for her, but the implication is that he's going to get brought back and he knows it.

[t209]

The giant vacuum cleaner idea was being used by The Right in Hopeless' All-New X-Men, but they were collecting bits of the Terrigen Cloud so they could poison mutants. Also featured in that issue (http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/All-New_X-Men_Vol_2_12): an offshoot of the Hand set up in the Amazon rainforest as eco-terrorists, the Green Thumb.
Well, it was made by Moongirl, who clearly a genius for coming up with that.
*cough* Storm, Crystal *cough*

[Starbuck_II]

Well, she actually oppose Hydra as I know.
I think it had to do with saving NuHumans, which Kamala and her Champions save them from internment camp even though Mutants would be included but Marvel bias (not including their Tau-like caste system and habit of sterilizing people).
Edit: that or the IvX but she did come back to her senses and decided not to gas people. And somehow to make Moongirl smart is to make everyone dumb even though they can build a giant vacuum cleaner and contain it. Maybe it might have stupid making pheromones inside, just like Tau.

I think Moongirl's power is to make others dumb to make her smarter.
I mean, everyone becomes dumb in the comic related to her. Even Karnak became a complete idiot.

[Rater202]

I think Moongirl's power is to make others dumb to make her smarter.
I mean, everyone becomes dumb in the comic related to her. Even Karnak became a complete idiot.

She was the dumb one in her team up with Eddie Brock in the new Venom ongoing.

Yes, bring an abnormally intelligent, super strong tyrannosaur to fight a guy who can psionically control anything that's even vaguely a dinosaur. That'll go super well.

[t209]

She was the dumb one in her team up with Eddie Brock in the new Venom ongoing.

Yes, bring an abnormally intelligent, super strong tyrannosaur to fight a guy who can psionically control anything that's even vaguely a dinosaur. That'll go super well.

Yep, the fear of "smartest person of the planet" is starting to show.
Just like Richard Reeds in Marvel Civil War Just watch the movie and Zeta Gundam for more awesome rebellion storyline.

[S_A_M I AM]

Well, she actually oppose Hydra as I know.
I think it had to do with saving NuHumans, which Kamala and her Champions save them from internment camp even though Mutants would be included but Marvel bias (not including their Tau-like caste system and habit of sterilizing people).
Edit: that or the IvX but she did come back to her senses and decided not to gas people. And somehow to make Moongirl smart is to make everyone dumb even though they can build a giant vacuum cleaner and contain it. Maybe it might have stupid making pheromones inside, just like Tau.

That is simultaneously: Kinda disappointing to hear and kind of a thorny issue given the confluence of death of the author and how the business demands of making the Inhumans pick up a similar narrative space as the Xmen should skew interpretation of any kind of narrative surrounding systemic violence.

Particularly given that I haven't even read it so I'll just say that a part of me misses what I'd been exposed to about the Inhumans before the Terrigenisis stuff went down. (Funtime raygun gothic drama about space princes on the moon.) And that Medusa and Johnny Storm always made a weird kind of sense to me as a couple.


If that's an All-New Wolverine spoiler, I haven't made it out to the local comic and hobby shop, yet. I would appreciate spoiler tags on that one.

It's possible you just haven't made it back to the thread yet but you should probably also spoil the quote you pulled from Rater's post.

[t209]

That is simultaneously: Kinda disappointing to hear and kind of a thorny issue given the confluence of death of the author and how the business demands of making the Inhumans pick up a similar narrative space as the Xmen should skew interpretation of any kind of narrative surrounding systemic violence..
To be fair, the Royal family did gone into space and introduced a thing called "democracy" to let them run while they were away.
Again, that didn't help about past cockadoodies relating to gas, so it made the Nuhumans look like playing a Victim card or Tau being invaded but less sympathetic.
Edit: Strangely though Marvel and Games Workshop are similiar except the latter isn't that dumb enough to actually put a grey properly with Tau actually treating non-Tau much better (Trust me, Kamala would be treated as "second class" but alot more better with robot servants and coffee machine than her life as Inhuman serfs). Hence comparison between Inhumans and Tau Empire as an example of their competence in writing.

[Metahuman1]

Wait. What happened to Miss Marvel? Did she go Hydra or something? After the Magneto and the Scarlet Witch thing, I'd have thought that I'd have heard about that.

(I haven't really been following comics for the last few years.)

Then you missed a rather massive arc were in she starts working with this group that have decided to go capture people who have not yet committed crimes.

But according to a computer only 1 or 2 of them can operate, based on "Good Science Criteria that ISN'T profiling we swear really take our word for it Minority Super Heroine!" these people are GOING to commit crimes.

The fact that all the "Crimes" and "Critera" involve being people that the typical extremely far left American political activist would deem "Problematic." is entirely beside the point dear reader please pay it no mind. Also pay no mind that were apparently predicting these crimes so very far into the future that the people who are alleged to commit them down the road haven't even though of doing so yet.



And of course she eats this up and backs it and goes about wtih this group using there super powers to kidnap people out of there homes. No Lawyers. No Right to Privacy. No Warrants. No actual physical crimes or evidence or victims. No Trial. No Jury. The people taking you in are your Judges, Jailers and Executioners. Period. No Appealing to higher authority. No legal recourse or defense at all.

You. Have. No. Rights. And she's 100% ok with this and defends it until it's done to someone she knows personally. And even then she doesn't throw the system under the bus for an altogether too long period of time. Because she believes in this kind of a system and it's rightness and superiority to alternatives.

Oh, and the friend/love interest who starts to finally make her think it's within the realms of conceivability this might, maybe, just possibly, and this is a crazy though, be potentially a little bit wrong to do? When he got arrested for a future crime he wasn't even considering at the time?

He get's permanently maimed by the end of the matter. He's gonna spend the rest of his natural life in a wheel chair as a direct consequence of her taking that path. And SHE is the one that the authors rather brazenly think you, dear reader, should feel sorry for.






We have a term of this kind of behavior. It's called Fascism. And her problem with it wasn't that at it's core the system is horrible and should be opposed at every turn. That it's Barbaric and Sub human and monstrous at every step and level form inception to every form of conceivable implementation through out time and space.

Her problem was that the computer program made 1 mistake, there for it wasn't reliable enough for her to be acting on it. Again, not the human rights violations that actually bug her. Her personal inner circle getting hurt and rightfully shunning her for her BS, and the comp goofing. Offer her a "better" computer and program and she'd do it all again.



Ergo, the character is dead to me. They have made certain to ruin her in a way that there really, ultimately, isn't going to be an acceptable recovery form. At least, not form this crop of writers. Now, sure, if you gave it to someone competent and told them to make getting her over the fact that this black mark is in her past a priority, they could probably pull it off. But this crop doesn't really think Ms. Marvel was in the wrong in the first place, so, that's never gonna happen long as they are working for Marvel.

The New Editor In Chief Can't fire the whole lot of them fast enough.

[Rater202]

You are aware that two issues later she proved that the "computer"(Actually a Nu Human who can see the future, which is singificantly better than a computer in this situation) was flawed in his predictions and then cut ties with Captain Marvel when CM refused to accept that it was a system that didn't work, right? ("Carol, I've proved that this system is sufficiently flawed as torender the predictive justice aspect invalid" "By working with a villain.")

Also, strictly speaking, the people were only imprisoned until after the Window of the crime they'd commit expired and they were released after and the first thing Ms. Marvel did after Captain MArvel set her up to this was use one of Ullyses' predictions to stop a stolen tank from exploding and killing a bunch of people.

Furthermore, it wasn't that it happened to someone she knew that made her start questioning it, it was that this person that she knew was taken into custudy becuase he met the general description of the person Ulyses saw doing the crime. Which is to say, despite what Captain Marvel said, there was in fact profiling being done in this system. also one of the kids she was working with almost imediatly went mad with power and tazed a guy when there was no need to taze him.

And then she got into a fight with this girl and tried to shut down the program but Captain Marvel over ruled her. and the only reason she didn't do it earliar was becuase she was blinded by Hero Worship of Carol Danvers.

But Seriously, this was Literally Civil War part II and the writing all around was just as Bad as Civil War part I. You can't exactly hold executive mandated bad-plots

Like, seriously, the only people who were perfectly in character in that entire arc were Agent Venom(whose Tie in consisted of Spider-Man mentioning the issue with Ullyses ofhand to explain why he had to leave and that's it) and Hydra!Cap whose behavior was explcitly a case of him trying to escalate the situation to undermine the publics faith in heroes.

[Metahuman1]

Sure I can. It's her canon. The writers have had time to clean it up if they wanted too.


They don't, and haven't.



And no, there pretty clearly explicit about her questioning it once she sees it's someone she knows. The fact that there profiling comes out AFTER she starts questioning it to help support that position because the writers, by now, have realized they have good and shot themselves in the foot with this little storyline. Not that anything in it is wrong in there minds mind you, just that they've figured out it what it makes them look like. And being that honest they figured was a bad plan.

By that logic kid she knew should have been out the following morning and I seem to recall them holding him notably longer then that. And guy with exploding tank should have been out in a couple of hours. He certainly got held longer then that. So, that's not a valid defense, sorry.

I don't recall of the tazering was before or after arresting guy she already knows. But I do recall that she simply swallows that "well, your in charge, so take her to task for it and make it clear to all of them that that one was a goof." was all she had to hear to put her mind at ease at the time on that matter.





And all of this leaves out the points that she's suppose to be this Oh So Very Smart Oh So Very Genera Savvy Geek Girl who's Oh So Very Politically Savvy already and Oh So Very Wise Beyond Her Years. Which, I was willing to buy into. I did buy into.

And then this happened. This was her having her One More Day moment, except that she didn't wait 45 years for it. She did it early on to make sure you knew you could no longer trust anything that's suppose to be a fundamental tennent of who this person is. For crying out loud she beats you about the head regularly with the Oppressed Minority Group(s)TM, and doesn't recognize "Were going to get people for things they haven't done yet and set precedent for wiping out there rights just on our say so that if we don't they will eventually do bad things! Really you can trust us cause there's no chance any of us would ever be wrong or lie or abuse this kind of un limited power!" as the sort of thing that could quickly, and trivially easily be used to make sure those minority groups stay oppressed? Or worse, get wiped out when half your bad guys want to do that too them whole sale?! Are you KIDDING ME?!

I suppose next you'll want me to forgive Bruce Wayne toting a small collection of firearms he bought in a vanilla gun store about and executing his foes with them in cold blood as heroic?





And you know, I'd be willing to let it go and give them another chance if they really wanted to fix it. Instead, they want to tell me the victimizer in this whole thing, Ms. Marvel (who, make no mistake, was decidedly the victimizer the whole way through.), is really the one I should really and truly feel sorry for because she's the real victim here! Not the innocent guy who literally never committed a crime and got permanently stuck in a wheel chair for the rest of his natural life. No, the person who made sure that happened to him is the one who really demands my sympathy damn it!


*%&! that!

[Rater202]

The writers have had time to clean it up if they wanted too. She acts consistantly differant both before and after Civil War II. It's very clearly a case of the Writers being madated to do a tie-in storyline.

And she does change her behavior accordingly after the fact and
By that logic kid she knew should have been out the following morning and I seem to recall them holding him notably longer then that. And guy with exploding tank should have been out in a couple of hours. He certainly got held longer then that. So, that's not a valid defense, sorry.


You need to reread. They explicitly stated that he was going to be released the next day(he was taken into captivity the day before the day he was supposedly going to do the thing Ulyses saw him doing, and was set to be released after the time the next day, I want to say 10:15 AM, that he would have done the thing he was forseen doing) and Bruno badly injured himself trying to break him out that night knowing that Josh was going to get out the next day.

And Bruno got injured because he tried to overload an electric lock, which triggered an explosion he was right next to. Again, needlessly, becuase he was physically there when it was said that Josh was going to be let out that night.

The guy with the exploding tank was held up longer because he stole a tank, which is an actual crime that he actually comitted, and also he's an actual Supervillain who had done actual crimes in the past.

The reason Ms. Marvel is presented as a victim is that she let her faith in Captain Marvel blind her and because Bruno blamed her for him injuring himself needlessly.

(Side note: Bruno is still capable of walking and a Oneshot showing him at that school in Wakanda establishes that his genius roomate is going to hook him up with a vibranium exoskeleton that's gonna take care of a lot of his problems in the short term and delay his degredation in the long term)

Ms. Marvel realized that she was on the wrong side, tried to explain to Captain Marvel that they were wrong, proved that they were wrong, and cut all tied with Captain Marvel when Carol refused to accept that she was in the wrong.

[t209]

She acts consistantly differant both before and after Civil War II. It's very clearly a case of the Writers being madated to do a tie-in storyline.

And she does change her behavior accordingly after the fact and

You need to reread. They explicitly stated that he was going to be released the next day(he was taken into captivity the day before the day he was supposedly going to do the thing Ulyses saw him doing, and was set to be released after the time the next day, I want to say 10:15 AM, that he would have done the thing he was forseen doing) and Bruno badly injured himself trying to break him out that night knowing that Josh was going to get out the next day.

And Bruno got injured because he tried to overload an electric lock, which triggered an explosion he was right next to. Again, needlessly, becuase he was physically there when it was said that Josh was going to be let out that night.

The guy with the exploding tank was held up longer because he stole a tank, which is an actual crime that he actually comitted, and also he's an actual Supervillain who had done actual crimes in the past.

The reason Ms. Marvel is presented as a victim is that she let her faith in Captain Marvel blind her and because Bruno blamed her for him injuring himself needlessly.

(Side note: Bruno is still capable of walking and a Oneshot showing him at that school in Wakanda establishes that his genius roomate is going to hook him up with a vibranium exoskeleton that's gonna take care of a lot of his problems in the short term and delay his degredation in the long term)

Ms. Marvel realized that she was on the wrong side, tried to explain to Captain Marvel that they were wrong, proved that they were wrong, and cut all tied with Captain Marvel when Carol refused to accept that she was in the wrong.
Also about the tank guy, even without pre-crime, he already committed a crime and red-handed. Like vehicle theft, pre-mediated attempty, and stolen parts. Yah, thanks for covering that.
And Bruno would be charged with prison break, property damage, and ohhhh, Terrorism for his stint. Oh jeez, you blame her without actually bothering to check or maybe the concept of trial, you peanut.
As I know, I happen to remember that it was Cadets' rather than Ms. marvel, at least Ms. Wilson give respect for Captain Marvel in her comic than events, which is alot compared to Highlords of Marvel who is too thick headed to realize their own mistakes.
*Gah* For trying to promote a movie that try to avoid the comic, they sure do want to repeat that. Also making Inhumans even more unlikable that I swear they would make Zeon and Titans (two nerve-gas happy bad guys) look like paragon good guys with flimsiest of excuse. Just read Zeta Gundam for superior version.
Also a little thing called "Source": https://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/6335353.html#cutid1 (let's see...broken cars, caught in commiting rampage).
https://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/6514626.html#cutid1 (Yep, blaming Kamal despite the fact that he was the one making the bomb. The only time a writer somehow made Bendis look like a moron, should have left Tomino write an entire saga. Ignore the bad dialogue, he can whip up a finest rebellion storyline.)
EDIT: SIde joke: This (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stzFHFyvnB0) is like entire IvX in a nutshell. "Wait a minute, you have an Inhuman with elemental power that can condense gas and a Mutant who invented a vacuum cleaner on destroy settings. You know you can just put it in a tank? USE YOUR COCKADOODY MIND!"

[Xyril]

And Disney getting Fox means were now trying to stop hosing the X-men and Replacing them with Inhumans, so, that's a plus.

I actually liked the sequestration of X-Men. While there are a lot of cross-overs I really liked--the bizarre buddy cop movie of Wolverine and Spider-man--I always felt that there was this huge incongruity between X-Men and highly X-Men related series and the rest of Marvel as a whole. Yes, I understand that prejudice is supposed to be irrational and that this is probably a point the writers are deliberately trying to make, but I always found it hard to reconcile the widespread hatred and mistrust of all mutants, good or bad, with the general acceptance of pretty much every non-mutant super powered hero other than Spider-man and a few others (whose struggle to gain acceptance was a deliberate plot point.)

I especially found it hard to suspend my disbelief during Civil War I, since Cap and numerous others on the anti-registration side spent decades tacitly accepting mutant registration in some form. This is understandable from a creative standpoint--especially early on, crossovers were a big deal, there wasn't as much top down editorial guidance uniting the shared universe, so most titles just ignored events in others except when they conflicted in an obvious way. From a fan perspective, this gave the unfortunate impression that except for some very special crossovers where they were circumstances forced them to confront the mutant issue, most of the main Marvel heroes weren't bothered enough by anti-mutant discrimination to do (or even say) much about it. I could talk myself into suspending disbelief on this for quite a while--after all, when the Avengers are assembling to battle literally world-ending threats several times a year, it makes sense that we're not spending a lot of page time dealing with the Avengers starting a letter-writing campaign lobbying Congress to expand the Civil Rights Act to apply to mutants.

Civil War stretched disbelief a bit too much for me. A guy who fought actual Nazis being okay with legislation singling out people based primarily on ancestry--regardless of whether or not that X-gene actually gave them particularly useful or dangerous abilities? I could kind of live with that--it's natural when we age for last year's activists to become next year's complacent conservatives. It's much harder to swallow that this same guy suddenly leads an insurrection because he simply couldn't condone the fact that what was essentially existing anti-mutant legislation was expanded to also control guys who develop technology to give himself the military power of several naval carrier groups, guys who gained powers later in life due to cosmic rays, gamma rays, or radioactive spiders, and of course people who were born with power due to genes but not the X-gene. (Also, let's not forget that Cap was proud to wear red, white and blue despite the countries participation in anti-mutant legislation but did walk away that one time because Nixon.)

Leaving X-Men and the FF out of the MCU foreclosed a lot of great narrative threads from the comics that I really wanted to see on screen, but it also allowed the whole shared universe to be more cohesive and more consistent. Fear of Inhumans is slightly more acute because, in addition to their abilities, they are a distinct ethnic group and subculture that largely lived secretly and separately from other human, but it was also strongly coupled with changing attitudes towards superhumans in general. SHIELD secretly keeping the index of powered individuals, with mixed reactions from outsiders who find out about the practice, rings true. So does the fact that a few very public disasters brought about the Sokovia Accords, and with it Inhuman registration concurrent with the imposition of more government control over SHIELD and the Avengers. Trying to retcon in a history of mutant civil rights issues that is in any way consistent with the Fox continuity or the comic continuity in a way that isn't at odds with existing MCU canon would be at best tricky.

[KillingAScarab]

I actually liked the sequestration of X-Men. While there are a lot of cross-overs I really liked--the bizarre buddy cop movie of Wolverine and Spider-man--I always felt that there was this huge incongruity between X-Men and highly X-Men related series and the rest of Marvel as a whole. Yes, I understand that prejudice is supposed to be irrational and that this is probably a point the writers are deliberately trying to make, but I always found it hard to reconcile the widespread hatred and mistrust of all mutants, good or bad, with the general acceptance of pretty much every non-mutant super powered hero other than Spider-man and a few others (whose struggle to gain acceptance was a deliberate plot point.)Ed Piskor's X-Men: Grand Design isn't intended to be canon, but one of the things he does in telling the X-Men's story is make the fear of mutants as a whole a better founded opinion. It was Namor's fault.


(Also, let's not forget that Cap... did walk away that one time because Nixon.)I wish the recent Secret Empire event had been about Steve Englehart's Secret Empire (http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Captain_America_Vol_1_175). Thankfully, the actual Secret Empire provided the springboard for U.S.Avengers.

[Metahuman1]

Reguarding Civl War and X-men: Yeah, but they spend a massive amount of the time wtih Inhumans doing the same thing's they would do with X-men. You know, hated and feared, random powers so anyone could get them, all that. All they really did was make it so we got to watch a much more boring X-men.


And yes, Civil War 1 was a travesty, and Quesada should of been fired for it.





Back to Ms. Marvel: Except she picks up on several behaviors again after that little story arc. It's the most glaring example, but it's not an isolated incident for that character by a long shot. She keeps showing up and kicking people's doors open. She get's people arrested for crimes they haven't committed because she can't be bothered to think about what's going on just a little bit. She comes within inches and seconds of releasing a sentient zero day computer virus in the main S.H.I.E.L.D. comp systems to do whatever it pleases over high school drama that wouldn't even have been all that big a deal when I was in high school over 10 years ago (ZOMG! A girl likes another girl! It's 1970-something so of course no one's ever heard of that before now because the plot demands it! Except we have a smartphone as a plot device!) and bails at the last second, and rather then sit there and tell Agent Colsen "Hey, I've got a situation on my plate, I need some hackers, know any?" she calls up the guy she maimed to hit him up for a favor, and is surprised when he has hard feelings toward her for burning and permanently crippling him so that his only hope of walking again is his roomie who's currently nailing him in the arm by accident with a hot soldering iron cause Khamala is distracting them with the call, thus delaying work on that exoskeleton.

As for the friend, would he have been maimed in the first place if she'd NOT been strutting around with her little young authoritarian brigade locking people up for alleged things there going to do in the future with out any form of remorse for her? No, because he wouldn't have felt the need to go rescue people. Hell, she could of brought a lawyer in for them and explained they were going to get full benefit of rights to calm the situation down. She didn't. She stuck to her freaking guns.

So, when your the one stamping around grabbing people out of there homes with no warning and stripping there rights away form them whole sale, and someone else tries to rescue those people, I got news for you. You have ceased to be any kind of hero. Your the villain now, and the other person is now the hero. (Oh and delaying his degeneration. Meaning he's still getting worse regardless. Meaning no, this does NOT make up for what she was directly responsible for happening to him even a little. Nice try. He wouldn't be having degeneration at all if she could have not gone full Goose-step mode in the first place.)

And again, she's allegedly genera savvy and smart and big on helping and protecting oppressed minority's. Except that apparently she isn't cause she's fully willing to use the exact same tactics her enemy's are using at the drop of a hat. But it's ok when she does it but not when anyone else does it back at her apparently.





Oh, and as for Tank Guy. If they were holding him for that they should probably state that. They weren't. They explicitly stated they were holding him because in the future the tank blows up and that caused casualty's. That was it. And by there own metric, they had, at most, a couple of hours to hold him. SO, again, by there own, in universe, stated metric, they were just detaining him indefinably for a crime that hand't actually happened yet. And since that's the frame of reference were given, we extrapolate. If there holding people indefinitely, there, you guessed it, holding people indefinitely.

It's considered wrong when Nightwing Does it over at DC.

It's considered wrong when Daredevil and Iron Man have done it in the past.

It's considered wrong when S.H.I.E.L.D did it.

It's considered wrong when Spiderman did it.

It's considered wrong when anyone in the X-men continuity has done it.


Ms. Marvel is not so special that she get's a pass on that being wrong when she does it. And she was out there making the arrests and kicking in the doors shoulder to shoulder with the rest of them, so no, sorry, she's just as guilty.



And the sad part is, this was a character who had some potential. This was a character who could have worked if they'd gotten there crap together and put someone who can actually write on the book to watch for this kind of behavior and say "Hey, I know you got all emotional here, but, logic sorta shows that this hero is a villain by taking these actions and failing to learn the right lessons form them. Here are some adjustments you can make to fix that before the book ships.".

Hell, they could if they really wanted too, still fix this. It wouldn't even be that hard. Kid who got maimed bumps into some other kid at the college who's got some neat new medical nano tech there working on that fixes him up good as new.

Meanwhile, we spend a few Issues with Khamala being run through the wringer over her poorly though out behaviors. Maybe give her a new enemy who's also a shapeshifter who's doing it because sadist who's come into power and get's off on hurting others it perceives to have power (like super hero's for instance.). Or if you REALLY wanted to hit below the belt, have it be a relative of someone who wound up dead because of her BS who later got powers. Too Late to save there loved one, but there going to settle for the next best thing, revenge. Now Khamala has to face down the fact that she's created her own worst nightmare, and it's gleefully bludgeoning her over the head with her rather inexcusable lapses in judgement.

She eventually beats her new opponent, but the confrontation has left her having to reconsider her past actions, and how she's going to handle things going forward in and effort not to create another such monster.




"But that's too heavy for the fun light hearted book....." She lost the grounds to invoke that defense when she started kicking peoples doors in and dragging them off with out any semblance of due process to be detained evidently indefinitely.

Just like Peter Parker lost the grounds to claim the responsibility thing when he sold his marriage to the devil.

[KillingAScarab]

I had been holding off on reading Monsters Unleashed for awhile. My 1st copy of issue 8 (http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Monsters_Unleashed_Vol_3_8) had the printing error (https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/11/23/monsters-unleashed-8-luke-cage-167/). I finally found a copy without it, and I'm glad I did.

There's a splash page of Kei's monsters beating up on a Poison version of Fin Fang Foom but it also contains this wonderful exchange.
Mekara: I don't know about the rest of you, but I feel like a million dollars/greenbacks/bucks!
Scragg: The terrifying Scragg recognizes money as the root of greed and conflict! But--yes--all should tremble in awe at Scragg's physical well-being!
It also furthers my belief that on Earth 616 Jimmy Carter (https://www.theonion.com/you-people-made-me-give-up-my-peanut-farm-before-i-got-1819585048) became Fin Fang Foom.

My enjoyment of Scragg continues in issue 9, though it's the start of a new writer. Justin Jordan seems to write Kei Kawade a bit older than I think he should sound, but I think I can forgive him.

Elsa Bloodstone:They're bees. I hate bees. I despise bees. They're quite nearly as bad as clowns.
Kei Kawade: I think they're kind of cute.
Elsa: They're the size of lorries, you lunatic. I can't believe your parents agreed to this.
Scragg: The mighty Scragg conquered them through the overwhelming power of understanding.
Aegis: Scragg, tell me more about the part where you used an insect to hit another insect.

I'm torn on issue 10. For one thing, Scragg sleeps through all of it. On the other hand, Elsa Bloodstone takes on R'lyeh.
http://lolthulhu.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/internet-o_rlyeh_2.jpg
...well, not really R'lyeh. It isn't the same one which Magneto and then the X-Men hung around and nothing bad ever happened to children on (http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Uncanny_X-Men_Vol_1_160).
Bachan does a good job of drawing Elsa Bloodstone in this issue. I want to get a print of the page where Elsa turns to fight a housecat. It is too bad that Justin Jordan writes her out of the book. I feel like he could do quite a bit more with her.

McTavish: Bloodstone.
Elsa Bloodstone: McTavish.
McTavish: How, exactly, did you get on this boat, thousands of miles from everything?
Elsa Bloodstone: With great difficulty and considerable skill.

[t209]

Leaving X-Men and the FF out of the MCU foreclosed a lot of great narrative threads from the comics that I really wanted to see on screen, but it also allowed the whole shared universe to be more cohesive and more consistent. Fear of Inhumans is slightly more acute because, in addition to their abilities, they are a distinct ethnic group and subculture that largely lived secretly and separately from other human, but it was also strongly coupled with changing attitudes towards superhumans in general. SHIELD secretly keeping the index of powered individuals, with mixed reactions from outsiders who find out about the practice, rings true. So does the fact that a few very public disasters brought about the Sokovia Accords, and with it Inhuman registration concurrent with the imposition of more government control over SHIELD and the Avengers. Trying to retcon in a history of mutant civil rights issues that is in any way consistent with the Fox continuity or the comic continuity in a way that isn't at odds with existing MCU canon would be at best tricky.
That is if you ignore the unintentional insult that minorities and LGBT are caused by aliens from outside force rather than natural. I mean, NuHumans are still NuHumans and only need gas to get powers.
Of course, that is Marvel's excuse even in-universe.
Medusa: "We need out fart gas to repouplate."
Me: "OR rather condense it and make it in contained environment, you hair tentacled snot."

[Xyril]

Reguarding Civl War and X-men: Yeah, but they spend a massive amount of the time wtih Inhumans doing the same thing's they would do with X-men. You know, hated and feared, random powers so anyone could get them, all that. All they really did was make it so we got to watch a much more boring X-men.


True, but that worked for me because the Inhumans were living in secret, and only came into public awareness around the same time awareness of--and backlash against--powered people in general came into play. Everything you talk about, hatred and fear because of random powers, blah blah... I have no problem suspending disbelief on that. Substitute "could become a suicide bomber/mass shooter/vehicle attacker," and you see real people actually reacting similarly in real life. Where I have trouble following comic cannon is that for decades, people knew about mutants. (Also, I don't know if your characterization is entirely accurate, since I haven't follow X-men closely at all since House of M, but as I understand it, the initial mutation happens spontaneously, but beyond that it's heritable, and before House of M, many if not most mutants were descended from known mutants.) Almost since WWII, people have known about mutants, and largely hated and feared them because they could have dangerous powers, and no matter how often a few prominent teams of mutants more or less saved humanity, the public--and the government--more or less agreed that the risk of some of these guys becoming criminals or terrorists was so great that we really shouldn't give them the same civil rights normal humans had.

Meanwhile, this nearly half-century time period, you have the Fantastic Four, who spontaneously developed dangerous powers and were initially regarded with some suspicion, save the world once and are pretty much universally accepted as heroes (with a few hiccups.) Iron-Man's several orders of magnitude more powerful than a mutant like Leech or Toad, but the public mostly loved him and the government mostly left him alone. The only times this ever really changed was in response to his own bad decisions, whereas anti-mutant legislation is largely predicated on the idea that people that powerful shouldn't be trusted to make their own bad decisions. We have an Ant-man, a Prowler, the Black Cat, and probably dozens of others who were known outright criminals with powers (either intrinsic or technological) who were given second chances as heroes by a world that refused to give mutants even a first chance. Hulk's probably smashed a few trillion dollars worth of tanks and helicopters, and the government never really stops being leery of him, but he's had substantial periods of widespread public acceptance (certainly more than mutants) despite spending a lot of time walking around in nothing but a torn pair of pants, something that could get you or me registered as a sex offender in some states. Hell, even Boomerang gets let out on parole and as far as the government is concerned, he's paid his debt to society and should be left alone.

But beyond the general public, whose attitudes are often implied in the comics more than explicitly articulated, I found it hard to believe that a lot of main characters who were supposed to be moral exemplars within cannon would have the huge blind spot they did when it came to what was happening to mutants. I always go back to Cap because he was such a clear cut example. He grew up facing bullies and came into his own as a hero fighting genocide in WWII. This has defined him across all media--the MCU in particular was a bit heavy handed about drawing the Nazi comparisons. I vaguely remember a few plot lines where the Guardians, or the FF, or Doctor Strange would save some random race on an alien world or in a magical dimension, from a more powerful group trying to implement what I now realize is ethnic cleansing, or freed some group from race or caste-based slavery. It was just weird to me to see so many characters who apparently cared enough about these principles to risk their lives intervening on behalf of strangers, yet remained largely silent, if not complicit, when their own government was the perpetrator.

What I enjoy about shared universes is that I can immerse myself this big world, and without ever leaving that world, I can read a different story about a different character, written in an entirely different style, sometimes from an entirely distinct genre. When I was still reading X-men regularly, I was very aware that I was swapping imaginary worlds when I switched between X-man stuff and regular Marvel stuff. Obviously, that wasn't a deal breaker for me as a fan, but correcting that flaw is something I really enjoyed about the MCU.

[Xyril]

That is if you ignore the unintentional insult that minorities and LGBT are caused by aliens from outside force rather than natural. I mean, NuHumans are still NuHumans and only need gas to get powers.
Of course, that is Marvel's excuse even in-universe.


I strongly suspect that you're trying to imply that I said something that I did not, but I can't really say for sure since your comment really isn't clear in any way, and I can only guess as to the point you're trying to make. Can you please be more clear. What precisely are you referring to when you say that "minorities and LGBT are caused by aliens"? Is this what you believe? Is this what you think Marvel stated, and if so, can you please cite the specific work?

[Rater202]

Mutants never chose to be mutants and get a lot of hate for things outside of their control.

Marvel has regularly used them as a metaphor for LGTBI or minorities during times when addressing the group in question wouldn't have flown.

The Inhumans, on the other hand, choose to develop their powers, except for the Nuhumans who kind of had it forced on them.

So a certain executive sidelining the X-Men and replacing them with the Inhumans and having Inhumans take the place of Mutants in discrimination based stories is unintentionally sending the message that people can choose to be black or gay or transgendered, basically. Later, with the Nu humans, it unintentionally sends the message that gay/black/trans people can just randomly make people gay/black/trans.

Also, while Mutants are considered a human subspecies(Homo sapien superior compared to baseline humanity's Homo sapien sapien) Inhumans are stated to be similar to but fundementally diffeant from humans, the name literally means not human, and scientifically speaking they're not even the same genus as humans(the scientific name for pureblooded inhumans is Inhomo supremus, "highest not-man") which furthers the unfortunate implications significantly as the inhumans are literally not human.

It's clearly not intentional on the part of the Marvel executives, but it's a case of the action having unfortunate implications when you think about it hard enough.

As for "aliens cause it," the Inhumans were genetically engineered from Neanderthals by the Kree and the Terrigen the Inhumans use to give themselves powers was created by the Kree. But since both those Neanderthals and the specific bloodlines that became mutants are descendants of Homo erectus that were genetically modified by the Celestials, that one also kind of applies to mutants(Note, this means that Homo s. superior and Inhomo supremus are evolutionary cousins, which makes the fact that they're biologically incompatible absolutely baffling)

[Xyril]

Mutants never chose to be mutants and get a lot of hate for things outside of their control.

Marvel has regularly used them as a metaphor for LGTBI or minorities during times when addressing the group in question wouldn't have flown.

The Inhumans, on the other hand, choose to develop their powers, except for the Nuhumans who kind of had it forced on them.

So a certain executive sidelining the X-Men and replacing them with the Inhumans and having Inhumans take the place of Mutants in discrimination based stories is unintentionally sending the message that people can choose to be black or gay or transgendered, basically. Later, with the Nu humans, it unintentionally sends the message that gay/black/trans people can just randomly make people gay/black/trans.


I guess I don't really see it that way because 1) in the MCU at least, I get the impression that it's not the choice to undergo terrigenesis that earns their hate--even latent Inhumans are already "tainted" by alien DNA, 2)



Also, while Mutants are considered a human subspecies(Homo sapien superior compared to baseline humanity's Homo sapien sapien) Inhumans are stated to be similar to but fundementally diffeant from humans, the name literally means not human, and scientifically speaking they're not even the same genus as humans(the scientific name for pureblooded inhumans is Inhomo supremus, "highest not-man") which furthers the unfortunate implications significantly as the inhumans are literally not human.


As I understand it, Inhumans picked their own name in part as a deliberate act of defiance. Whether you accept that or--like Senator Nadir (I believe)-- want to try to interpret that as a slur against regular humans, really has no bearing on whether--scientifically speaking--Inhumans are, as you claim, "not human." From a biological perspective, Daisy's existence and the existence in general of Inhumans who have interbred with "normal" humans and produced fertile offspring, and the fact that the ability to undergo terrigenesis is passed down as a genetic trait that can go to one child and not the other (unless you want to argue a bunch of implied infidelity), pretty much fits the definition of Inhumans being human.



It's clearly not intentional on the part of the Marvel executives, but it's a case of the action having unfortunate implications when you think about it hard enough.

The problem is that the unfortunate implication requires that you think way too hard about it, and also look beyond the MCU--which we're talking about--deep into the history of Marvel. Look at your logical chain: Mutants are a analogy for real minorities because it was hard to discuss them directly. Mutants were used by Marvel comics (simultaneously with Inhumans, I might add.) The MCU is based in part on Marvel Comics. The MCU has used Inhumans to fill part of the narrative gap left by mutants. That last bit is the most tenuous link, I think, because Inhumans retained a lot of their own distinct story, they only took a small part of the X-Men/mutant role in the overall narrative, and as I have ranted about repeatedly, in Civil War I in the comics, mutants had an irrationally and frankly shamefully small part in a crossover that dealt with the most central issues to the X-men franchise.

Your argument seems to be that, in a changed culture where people are much more socially aware, and it's become acceptable for Marvel to deal directly and explicitly with race and sexual orientation--which they have, both in comic and in the MCU--we need to be careful that the Inhumans are a perfect analogy with minorities and the LGBT community, because Intellectual Property issues forced them to fill a prominent role in the Civil War MCU plotline, the comic version of which involved the X-men filling a similar--albeit smaller--role, and the X-men are mutants who, as any Marvel fan knows, were historically one of the only ways--certainly the most prominent way--we were talking about these social issues in comics.

I know that comes off as a bit dismissive, and I truly don't mean for it to, but I think that you're fundamentally underestimating the capacity of the modern audience--even the young ones--to grasp nuance in our complex world, and at the same time might be disregarding a few important narrative nuances yourself. On top of that, the distinctions you point out actually do exist in our world, and it might be useful to present them in a fantasy narrative setting with less real world baggage. How do you evaluate someone who claims he has no problem with someone being born with Inhuman DNA, but because they make a choice to undergo terrigenesis? Does he practice what he preaches, and if so, is this a deliberate choice, or merely a consequence of the fact that he doesn't know when he's dealing with an unpowered Inhuman? If he's confronted with the knowledge that someone is an Inhuman, but has no powers and chooses never to gain them, does he treat that person with respect, or does his true bigotry reveal itself?

These mirror issues in the real world. While I regard most claims about Islam and less mainstream religions are largely false and motivated by bigotry, religion occupies a weird space where it is both heritable and a choice. Most people stick with the religion they were born into. Some leave the religion, many more remain nominally in the faith but become far less devout, others move to similar faiths due to marriage or other reasons. Far fewer convert to an entirely different faith because they feel a calling they didn't feel in the faith they were raised with. Religion isn't what the Supreme Court called an "immutable difference," yet they found that it was such an integral part of our personal identity and our family history that it deserved similar protections to race and gender. At what point is attacking someone for their religious choices a legitimate criticism of their conscious decisions, and at what point is it a bigoted attack on their identity? Is it right to tell one group that we will only accept them if they consciously decide to reject a birthright they never asked for, while not imposing the same difficult choice on other groups?

[Rater202]

I guess I don't really see it that way because 1) in the MCU at least, I get the impression that it's not the choice to undergo terrigenesis that earns their hate--even latent Inhumans are already "tainted" by alien DNA, 2)That's great, but this thread in general and t209 in particular is talking about the comics.

Note his comment about "fart gas" which refers to the Terrigen Clouds circling the world and causing fatal allergies in mutants which the Inhumans knew about for months but refused to do anything about until it was literally just a few days from sublimating out and killing every mutant on the planetinsteadof just getting a super vacum, condensing the gas down, and going back to Terrigensis chambers like thy used to use.

Medusa: Terrigensis isn'st worth it if even a single mutant dies! She says and destroys the Cloud at the end of Inhumans vs X-Men... except that she's known for months that Terrigen has been killing mutants and many had already died to M-Pox, at least one right in front of Medusa.

The writing for the conflict was just terrible.
From a biological perspective, Daisy's existence and the existence in general of Inhumans who have interbred with "normal" humans and produced fertile offspring, and the fact that the ability to undergo terrigenesis is passed down as a genetic trait that can go to one child and not the other (unless you want to argue a bunch of implied infidelity), pretty much fits the definition of Inhumans being human. This is a comic book. This is a universe where their are multible hybrids of species that are not even from the same planet(Hulkling is Half-Kree and Half-Skrull, who are mammalian and reptilain respectivly and IIRC not even from the same galaxy)

Marvel, in General, runs on the "anything human looking can breed with humans" fantasy trope. The point is, in-universe, Inhumans are not considered humans.

In fact, in the first or second issue of A-Force volume 2, a cosmic being breaks an inhuman down to study himhttp://2.bp.blogspot.com/SETuIzAB959A3GSmEBXmEKdQTXFSlQHk8F7vsMdp5LK-xGd56WopJrvvylu0OEqBAUUt8fQdUwpn=s1600


Your argument seems to be that, in a changed culture where people are much more socially aware, and it's become acceptable for Marvel to deal directly and explicitly with race and sexual orientation--which they have, both in comic and in the MCU--we need to be careful that the Inhumans are a perfect analogy with minorities and the LGBT community, because Intellectual Property issues forced them to fill a prominent role in the Civil War MCU plotline, the comic version of which involved the X-men filling a similar--albeit smaller--role, and the X-men are mutants who, as any Marvel fan knows, were historically one of the only ways--certainly the most prominent way--we were talking about these social issues in comics.

Nope, not making that argument at all. Again, the thread in general and the comment you quoted, in particular, were specifically talking about the situation involving Mutants and Inhumans in the comics.

What I'm saying is that, in the comics, we have one group of Superhumans who did not choose to be what they are being descriminated against for things outside of their control. And we have one executive who dislikes them and decided to ruin them as an intellectual property becuase he was mad that the company gave their film rights to Fox.

And This same executive also loves this other group of Superhumans who did choose to be what they are and he keeps trying to insist that they are totally exactly the same as the first group even though no, they're not. The group that chose to mutate themselves and finds themselves descrimnated against for it is not the same as the group being discriminated against becuase they happened to be born differant.

The X-Men have always been used as a metaphor for things like Homosexuality: "Have you tried not being a mutant" has come up word for word more than once. Doing that kind of storyline with the inhumans, who chose to be what they are, instead of mutants who were born that way...

You don't have to think "too hard" to see the unintentional and unfortunate implications.

Especially considering that the Inhumans relied on Slave Labor until not that long ago and in general are kind of jerks to people who aren't inhumans.

Tony Stark: "I think we should test Ulyses powers before acting on them."
Medusa: "Nope,sorry, not gonna happen."
Tony: "Seriously, people are getting hurt becaUlyssesople are acting on Ulysses predictions but half the time they're causing the problems he's seeing and"
Inhumans: *Destroy large amounts of Stark property for Tony's insolence*

Or Medusa 616's first response to Singularity in A-Force being to clap her in cuffs and offer to give her to the monster that wants to destroy her becuase she's there--singularity who is physically a teenager, mentally a child, and remembers Medusa as a friend do to ahaving first met her on Battleworld in A-Force volume and whose first word to Medusa were "friend." she changes her mind around the time Anti-Matter deconstructs and studies and Inhuman soldier(see above.)

[Xyril]

That's great, but this thread in general and t209 in particular is talking about the comics.


That's great, but the comment I was responding to referenced MCU specifically. The comment that I made was obviously in response to that MCU reference--I even quoted it and everything to make it easier--though I did relate it back to something that has always troubled me about the Marvel comic-verse. The portion of my comment that t209 quoted specifically referenced the MCU. Now, I don't claim to be an expert, but as I understand it, when somebody goes through the trouble of cutting out a specific part of your comment to quote, and posts response that seems to require some sort of context to fully understand, the presumption is that he wants you to look towards the quote for context. Thus, the logical assumption that t209 had some issue with my characterization of the MCU.

I do appreciate you taking the time to explain the reference to the comic universe--though it only reinforces my belief that X-Men were always a bit out of place among the rest of Marvel, and now I'm even more troubled that they might be handling bigotry metaphors in general. Bit of a disappointment to hear you talk about the ending of that last Inhuman arc--I followed Medusa's Inhumans comic dealing with the aftermath of the Terrigen bomb, but the writing fell enough that I stopped--not really a deliberate decision not to read, just lowering it on my priority list to be something that I'd binge on when I had more free time, but from your opinion it seems like I shouldn't bother. Oh well, more time to follow the 57 Spider-man related titles out there.

[Rater202]

For the record, I was replying specifically to a post you made that had a segment of t209's post quoted that had no referances to the MCU.
I do appreciate you taking the time to explain the reference to the comic universe--though it only reinforces my belief that X-Men were always a bit out of place among the rest of Marvel, and now I'm even more troubled that they might be handling bigotry metaphors in general. Bit of a disappointment to hear you talk about the ending of that last Inhuman arc--I followed Medusa's Inhumans comic dealing with the aftermath of the Terrigen bomb, but the writing fell enough that I stopped--not really a deliberate decision not to read, just lowering it on my priority list to be something that I'd binge on when I had more free time, but from your opinion it seems like I shouldn't bother. Oh well, more time to follow the 57 Spider-man related titles out there

Oh, that's not the latest Inhumans arc. That's Inhumans Vs. X-men and a little bit of Civil War II before it

The latest Inhumans arc is the Royals ongoing title, where Inhumans stop gettting shoved down people's throats as an alternative to the X-Men and the Inhuman Royal family goes into space to get the secrets of makin more terrigen from the Kree directly and in general just go back to being the kind of stories that the Inhumans did before being touted as an X-Men substitute by the Inhumans Fanboy in the executie chair.
though it only reinforces my belief that X-Men were always a bit out of place among the rest of Marvel, and now I'm even more troubled that they might be handling bigotry metaphoThat's literally the whole reason X-Men exist.

The X-Men, and Mutants, were created, and Mutants are hated so much, beucase back in the 1960s a comic book about black and gay superheroes fighting against bigotry and discrimination would have been met with backlash and/or would have failed to find a mainstream audiance, so mutants were used as a metaphor. Becuase back then, comics didn't have the level ofmain stream staying power to take hits like that and keep going.

Now a days, mutants have evolved beyond that(being treated as a specific group rather thna a metaphor for any and every minority since that can be spoken about more directly nowadays) but that's where they came from and why trying to replace them with the Inhumans, who really aren't anything like the mutants based on where their powers come from or their history in the world, has such unfortunate implications.

[Xyril]

That's literally the whole reason X-Men exist.

The X-Men, and Mutants, were created, and Mutants are hated so much, beucase back in the 1960s a comic book about black and gay superheroes fighting against bigotry and discrimination would have been met with backlash and/or would have failed to find a mainstream audiance, so mutants were used as a metaphor.


I must be doing something wrong, because people keep saying this to me as if I don't know this already. Let me be concise and unambiguous.

I know X-Men began as a way to explore real bigotry without using real minority groups.

I liked reading X-Men.

I think that the way that it was dealt with within X-Men centered continuity was often well done, and even when it wasn't, I still enjoyed reading it even though keeping track of that continuity became more and more complicated.

I simply felt that the X-Men corner of the universe was highly incongruous with the rest of the Marvel comic universe. In the X-Men universe, the conflict between mutants and the government isn't depicted as some obscure thing that most people simply don't notice--it's depicted as headline news with a real impact on national politics. Moreover, many of the mainstream Marvel heroes would know about this conflict even if it weren't news--they know mutants personally. To me, it takes too much work to convince myself that the events of X-Men can be happening in the wider universe without having more of an impact on events than they do.

I can certainly imagine arguments that would reconcile these apparent inconsistencies, but I don't recall anyone really doing so in the comics.

[t209]

I was talking about the comic actually, it's just that you sounded pretty naivete about the universe. :smallsigh:
Yes, you can also apply that to MCU where the gas release give them powers that undermined the minority message along with Inhuman's xenophobia and caste system that would put Tau (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Tau_Empire) (think Kree, except likable even by Marvel standards) to shame, like Rater 202 already said (sorry for being late). If it was given under a real writer without executive mandate, Kamala Khan would form a spilter colony that actually try to be different from Inhuman-mainstream and try to help people. Also Marvel still don't get idea about making them likable and try to pry in with the worst excuse.
Of course, this not mentioning Marvel's ignorance that not all Inhumans get to be awesome and sometimes ended up worse. I think all those inbreeding might have affected their brains in my headcanon.
edit: Also I discovered that they've seen giving subtle insults to critics by having a reasonable Inhuman kingdom that didn't use slaves and caste system (https://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/6366723.html) (ignoring an ill attempt at how cool they are in the announcement) that kidnap people and eugenics (https://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/6382423.html#cutid1)(*cough* Only MCU slimeballs without knowledge that Attilans done that will be intrigued by that). Sorry Marvel, you had to do better than that.

I simply felt that the X-Men corner of the universe was highly incongruous with the rest of the Marvel comic universe. In the X-Men universe, the conflict between mutants and the government isn't depicted as some obscure thing that most people simply don't notice--it's depicted as headline news with a real impact on national politics. Moreover, many of the mainstream Marvel heroes would know about this conflict even if it weren't news--they know mutants personally. To me, it takes too much work to convince myself that the events of X-Men can be happening in the wider universe without having more of an impact on events than they do.

I can certainly imagine arguments that would reconcile these apparent inconsistencies, but I don't recall anyone really doing so in the comics.
And Inhumans narrative made it even worse. Like a ton of people who are screwed over, which Black Bolt should get more blame than the bigots since he gassed everyone and made them abominations.
And let's not mention the more abominable things that include Triton whose gift happen to be unable to stay on surface.

[Xyril]

I was talking about the comic actually, it's just that you sounded pretty naivete about the universe. :smallsigh:


Just some friendly advice... you undercut your condescending smallsigh by using the wrong form of the word naive.

If you could take the time to be bit more clear and articulate about what specific point you take issue with, and maybe put a little less effort into being cutesy patronizing, maybe I could learn something from you. What precisely about my previous statements do you find "naivete"? I've repeated and rephrased my main points already, but to reiterate: 1) I liked the role of mutants in talking about discrimination early on. 2) The way it's done is poorly integrated into the rest of the Marvel universe. Though this lack of congruity is only a small part of the reason I haven't followed X-men closely in a long time, it is nonetheless one of the reasons, and as I have repeatedly acknowledged, this is one reason why I don't really know the details of how they are handling mutants and Inhumans.



Only MCU slimeballs without knowledge that Attilans done that will be intrigued by that). Sorry Marvel, you had to do better than that.

A few points for the record. 1) I know about the ugly history of the Inhumans in the comic universe. 2) The fact that Attilan, as a nation, kind of undercuts your original point. In my opinion, bigotry based on country of affiliation is still bigotry, and bigotry against people who just happened to be caught in the terrigen cloud is inexcusable, but it's much less of a black and white issue when you can argue that voluntarily exposing yourself to terrigen is a conscious decision to align yourself with the Inhuman nation and that it's not prejudice to make a moral judgment on that decision.

3) If you can't go three paragraphs without resorting to insults and personal attacks, I'm just going to step out.

[Xyril]

Just some friendly advice... you undercut your condescending smallsigh by using the wrong form of the word naive.

If you could take the time to be bit more clear and articulate about what specific point you take issue with, and maybe put a little less effort into being cutesy patronizing, maybe I could learn something from you. What precisely about my previous statements do you find "naivete"? I've repeated and rephrased my main points already, but to reiterate: 1) I liked the role of mutants in talking about discrimination early on. 2) The way it's done is poorly integrated into the rest of the Marvel universe. Though this lack of congruity is only a small part of the reason I haven't followed X-men closely in a long time, it is nonetheless one of the reasons, and as I have repeatedly acknowledged, this is one reason why I don't really know the details of how they are handling mutants and Inhumans.


Yes, you can also apply that to MCU where the gas release give them powers that undermined the minority message along with Inhuman's xenophobia and caste system

You could, but it would be a huge and disingenuous stretch. For one thing, the Inhuman's xenophobia and caste system didn't exist, as far as the people doing the fearing and discriminating were concerned. Before the Inhuman series, every single Inhuman being discriminated against was either some random person who had no idea about their ancestry and made zero choices regarding that ancestry, or they were simply part of a network of Inhuman diaspora who barely remember their links to those who would eventually found Attilan. By that reasoning, if Israel did something that the world finds immoral, the whole "antisemitism is bad" message is undermined.

We live in a world where we should take the time to understand nuance, rather than trying to whitewash it in the name of "not undermining the minority message." In fact, I would argue that perhaps it's your worldview that has unfortunate, and potentially harmful implications. If our fiction only depicts prejudice as bad when the oppressed minority 1) has zero control over whether or not people consider him part of that minority 2) no members of that minority group have ever done anything morally questionable and 3) that minority group isn't affiliated with a history of morally questionable acts, then what does that say about how we should treat bigotry when the minority isn't a "perfect victim?" People could start arguing that it's okay to judge Roman Catholics because remaining in that faith is a deliberate choice to condone the Church's history of brutal human rights abuses. That Japanese-Americans who choose to learn to speak Japanese are fair game because they're signalling their approval of Japan's wartime atrocities.

Or, since you keep bringing up Inhumans and the LGBT community and you clearly know more about the current state of the Inhumans/X-men corner of Marvel, let me ask you something. You equate an Inhuman choosing to whether or not to undergo a transformation with a gay person choosing whether or not to act on his same sex attraction. You claim that this undercuts the minority message because prejudiced characters are claiming that they don't target Inhumans for their ancestry--which they can't help--but for their decision to gain powers, which to me strongly parallels the real life people who claim "I don't hate gay people, as long as they follow my religion's rules and never have sex with another man." My question for you is this: In the comics, the guys who are arguing for laws targeting Inhumans with powers, are they ever depicted sympathetically? I mean this on the long term.

As an example of what I mean, I would argue that Civil War I (comics) was strongly biased in favor of being anti-registration propaganda. While pro-registration was initially depicted as being a sympathetic and reasonable point of view, over the course of the arc they were shown to have made so many moral compromises and to have caused so many horrible, unintended consequences, that by the end of the arc, the message was basically that the road to hell is paved with good, but authoritarian, intentions.



Also, few points for the record. 1) I know about the ugly history of the Inhumans in the comic universe. 2) The fact that Attilan, as a nation, kind of undercuts your original point. In my opinion, bigotry based on country of affiliation is still bigotry, and bigotry against people who just happened to be caught in the terrigen cloud is inexcusable, but it's much less of a black and white issue when you can argue that voluntarily exposing yourself to terrigen is a conscious decision to align yourself with the Inhuman nation and that it's not prejudice to make a moral judgment on that decision.

3) Can we please try to go three paragraphs without resorting to insults and personal attacks?

[t209]

If you could take the time to be bit more clear and articulate about what specific point you take issue with, and maybe put a little less effort into being cutesy patronizing, maybe I could learn something from you. What precisely about my previous statements do you find "naivete"? I've repeated and rephrased my main points already, but to reiterate: 1) I liked the role of mutants in talking about discrimination early on. 2) The way it's done is poorly integrated into the rest of the Marvel universe. Though this lack of congruity is only a small part of the reason I haven't followed X-men closely in a long time, it is nonetheless one of the reasons, and as I have repeatedly acknowledged, this is one reason why I don't really know the details of how they are handling mutants and Inhumans.
Well, I thought that you were new to Marvel comics after seeing MCU franchise.



Or, since you keep bringing up Inhumans and the LGBT community and you clearly know more about the current state of the Inhumans/X-men corner of Marvel, let me ask you something. You equate an Inhuman choosing to whether or not to undergo a transformation with a gay person choosing whether or not to act on his same sex attraction. You claim that this undercuts the minority message because prejudiced characters are claiming that they don't target Inhumans for their ancestry--which they can't help--but for their decision to gain powers, which to me strongly parallels the real life people who claim "I don't hate gay people, as long as they follow my religion's rules and never have sex with another man." My question for you is this: In the comics, the guys who are arguing for laws targeting Inhumans with powers, are they ever depicted sympathetically? I mean this on the long term.

As an example of what I mean, I would argue that Civil War I (comics) was strongly biased in favor of being anti-registration propaganda. While pro-registration was initially depicted as being a sympathetic and reasonable point of view, over the course of the arc they were shown to have made so many moral compromises and to have caused so many horrible, unintended consequences, that by the end of the arc, the message was basically that the road to hell is paved with good, but authoritarian, intentions.
That and combining that with the Inhumans being only likable in creator's eyes (i.e- a sense of moral dissonance that is villainous in our eyes).



Also, few points for the record. 1) I know about the ugly history of the Inhumans in the comic universe. 2) The fact that Attilan, as a nation, kind of undercuts your original point. In my opinion, bigotry based on country of affiliation is still bigotry, and bigotry against people who just happened to be caught in the terrigen cloud is inexcusable, but it's much less of a black and white issue when you can argue that voluntarily exposing yourself to terrigen is a conscious decision to align yourself with the Inhuman nation and that it's not prejudice to make a moral judgment on that decision.
Well, the problem is that majority of the Nu Humans do not have choice in becoming one as it involved Inhumans allowing the gas to pass through sometimes without warning. Though they changed the game with city being evacuated with those who wish to join them stayed, but sometimes I feel if it was an afterthought. And other that didn't help was that Mutants are potrayed as villains, even in Secret Empire which is ignoring that Hydra also tend to be anti-Mutants and Magneto might not inclined to join them, despite them having good points like not like being gassed or bothered to help.

[Starbuck_II]

Well, I thought that you were new to Marvel comics after seeing MCU franchise.


Well, the problem is that majority of the Nu Humans do not have choice in becoming one as it involved Inhumans allowing the gas to pass through sometimes without warning. Though they changed the game with city being evacuated with those who wish to join them stayed, but sometimes I feel if it was an afterthought. And other that didn't help was that Mutants are potrayed as villains, even in Secret Empire which is ignoring that Hydra also tend to be anti-Mutants and Magneto might not inclined to join them, despite them having good points like not like being gassed or bothered to help.

Except Karnak who apparently learned super powers naturally.
Wonder what he would learn if gas'd.

[t209]

Except Karnak who apparently learned super powers naturally.
Wonder what he would learn if gas'd.
Except he's a martial artist and well-educated, so it's more of a nurture thing.
I am not sure he'll do it after what happened to his brother, Triton, who can't survive on the surface without oxygen mask.
Edit: http://www.beastsofwar.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Logan-Grimnar-Mounted-II.jpg
Maybe a barely sentient furry creature, like what happened to failed Space Wolves aspirant, which many of them turned into wolves on occasion.

[Xyril]

Apologies for the mangled previous post/edit attempt. It's been up so long that substantially editing it would feel dishonest, so I won't.


Well, I thought that you were new to Marvel comics after seeing MCU franchise.


That's not really an answer. It would be like me making a racist and insulting comment about your lack of English speaking skills, you asking "Well, what specifically about the way I speak makes you think my English skills are bad?", and me answering "Well, I thought you weren't a native English speaker."



Well, the problem is that majority of the Nu Humans do not have choice in becoming one as it involved Inhumans allowing the gas to pass through sometimes without warning.

Doesn't this in fact undermine your previous concerns? First you say that Inhumans/mutants are an LGBT stand-in, and thus depicting it as a choice is insulting. Now you're saying that for the majority of Nu Humans, it was clearly something beyond their control. Doesn't this mean that Marvel has in fact changed course and at least partially corrected one of your main concerns?

As for your concern with having an alien influence be partly responsible for identity, I'm not sure that's inherently an issue for most people. The whole idea of Original Sin imposes the same sort of external locus of control, but instead of having that doctrine to justify excluding people, it's used as an argument for inclusiveness--that we're all sinners, because the folks who resist temptation and the ones who don't are still in the same boat because even the most blameless among us are touched by original sin.

But back to the original question, which remains unanswered: Is Marvel depicting this sort of thing as remotely justified? To make it more clear, I assume that there are specific characters or institutions who are pushing hard to control the Nu Humans. How are they depicted? Are they straight up bad guys, or are they sympathetic characters who seem like they have a good reason for what they're doing and are only antagonists by circumstance?

Let me put it another way: If I'm watching Law and Order, and this guy made a lot of unsafe choices going out alone at night in a bad neighborhood and gets mugged, that isn't automatically a problem for me. If the show makes it seem like the criminals aren't as bad because you can pass a lot of blame on to the victim, then that message would bother me. If, however, it's clear that even though the victim might have been more careful--and even though he might even blame himself--the criminals were clearly bad people who would have found somebody to mug no matter what the victim did, I would be very happy with the message the show sent.

[Rater202]

Doesn't this in fact undermine your previous concerns? First you say that Inhumans/mutants are an LGBT stand-in, and thus depicting it as a choice is insulting. Now you're saying that for the majority of Nu Humans, it was clearly something beyond their control. Doesn't this mean that Marvel has in fact changed course and at least partially corrected one of your main concerns?

Differant issue.

The X-Men were being marginalized and Inhumans were being pushed as a substitute for them and mutants in general long before Nuhumans were a thing.

With the Nuhumans, it's just in general a case of the Inhumans kind of being jerks in general, which is a recurring theme.

Essentially, Black Bolt set of a Terrigen Bomb asa weapon against Thanos, who had invaded theEarth to kill one specific Inhuman/Eternal Hybrid, specifically his own son.

A side effect of this Terrigen Bomb was a significant degree of Terrigen Mist being spread all over the world, triggering the powers of the Nuhumans, who have Inhuman ancestry, without their consent. Note that Terrigen mutations are unpredictable and Inhuman society runs programs of selective breeding and genetic screening to minimize the chance of people getting "sucky mutations" or just fracking dying from Terrigenesis(If the risk is too big, you don't get powers) and it was traditionally something you could opt out of.

Meaning that a lot of the Nuhumans most likely ended up crippled or dead instead of getting awesome powers, with no warning.

Medusa then went around collecting NuHumans and trying to bring them back to New Attilan while insisting that becuase they happened to be Inhumans that they belonged with the Inhumans and that the Inhumans were tehir new family, with an apparent disregard for what they wanted--she didn't force people to stay, but she clearly had no regard for the Nuhumans human friends or family.

Note: Inhumans with any Inhuman ancestry were forbidden from undergoing Terrigenisis on the grounds that their human DNa made it too risky. And yet it's fine for Humans with trace amounts of inhuman DNA?

I previously mentioned that it's possible to interpret NuHumans as someone making you a minoriy or LGBT+ against your will instead of you being born that way, which is something else uncofmortable, but that's not really the primary issue.

Also compounding the issue is that it had previously been determined that Humans and Mutants could benifet from Terrigenisis--a Human's latant potential to Mutate could be activated or a Mutant whose powers were surpressed could have them restored. A Pure human undergoing terrigenisis's mutation will eventually progress out of vcontrol and will swiftly become fatal. A mutant whose powers are restored by Terrigensis will have those powers becoming singificantly more powerful than before, have no control over them, and there's about a 50% chance that if their out of control powers don't kill them, they'll just randomly expode from a build up of energy. Otherwise, it eventually wears off.

So even ignoring M-Pox, either MArvel is blatantly ignoring some stuff that was a big deal before or a lot of humans and mutants died from the mists, to no regard from the Inhumans.

[t209]

Differant issue.

The X-Men were being marginalized and Inhumans were being pushed as a substitute for them and mutants in general long before Nuhumans were a thing.

With the Nuhumans, it's just in general a case of the Inhumans kind of being jerks in general, which is a recurring theme.

Essentially, Black Bolt set of a Terrigen Bomb asa weapon against Thanos, who had invaded theEarth to kill one specific Inhuman/Eternal Hybrid, specifically his own son.

A side effect of this Terrigen Bomb was a significant degree of Terrigen Mist being spread all over the world, triggering the powers of the Nuhumans, who have Inhuman ancestry, without their consent. Note that Terrigen mutations are unpredictable and Inhuman society runs programs of selective breeding and genetic screening to minimize the chance of people getting "sucky mutations" or just fracking dying from Terrigenesis(If the risk is too big, you don't get powers) and it was traditionally something you could opt out of.

Meaning that a lot of the Nuhumans most likely ended up crippled or dead instead of getting awesome powers, with no warning.

Medusa then went around collecting NuHumans and trying to bring them back to New Attilan while insisting that becuase they happened to be Inhumans that they belonged with the Inhumans and that the Inhumans were tehir new family, with an apparent disregard for what they wanted--she didn't force people to stay, but she clearly had no regard for the Nuhumans human friends or family.

Note: Inhumans with any Inhuman ancestry were forbidden from undergoing Terrigenisis on the grounds that their human DNa made it too risky. And yet it's fine for Humans with trace amounts of inhuman DNA?

I previously mentioned that it's possible to interpret NuHumans as someone making you a minoriy or LGBT+ against your will instead of you being born that way, which is something else uncofmortable, but that's not really the primary issue.

Also compounding the issue is that it had previously been determined that Humans and Mutants could benifet from Terrigenisis--a Human's latant potential to Mutate could be activated or a Mutant whose powers were surpressed could have them restored. A Pure human undergoing terrigenisis's mutation will eventually progress out of vcontrol and will swiftly become fatal. A mutant whose powers are restored by Terrigensis will have those powers becoming singificantly more powerful than before, have no control over them, and there's about a 50% chance that if their out of control powers don't kill them, they'll just randomly expode from a build up of energy. Otherwise, it eventually wears off.

So even ignoring M-Pox, either MArvel is blatantly ignoring some stuff that was a big deal before or a lot of humans and mutants died from the mists, to no regard from the Inhumans.
Like everything Rater202 said, poor context and the fact that Inhumans turning oopsies are ignored.

[Aotrs Commander]

And Generation #86 grants Marvel one more Bleakbane's stay of execution!

HUZZAH!

'Bout FREAKING time!

[Bastian Weaver]

And Generation #86 grants Marvel one more Bleakbane's stay of execution!

HUZZAH!

'Bout FREAKING time!

Absolutely. But it gets better in #87.

[GameSpawn]

(I'm cautiously optomistic about the Runaways ongoing, though I'm a bit concerned by the current author's stated dislike for Volumes 2 and 3 and about how so far nobody has shown any concern for Klara being in foster care despite the previous volumes treating that as a bad thing, with Karalina even having been given to a foster family that was strong out on pills, and with a time traveling mutant from 1907 who is also an immigrant and a victim of emotional abuse and rape being the exact kind of child who absolutly would not do well is foster care.)

I really like the new Runaways ongoing. Honestly, I think this is the first time since Vaughn that someone's really had an idea of what to do with the Runaways; I felt like most of their other appearances were either kind of directionless or glorified cameos (some of which I still enjoyed, but they didn't lend themselves to an ongoing). The new series actually seems to have a plan, and a direction for the characters to grow in, and I love it.

Regarding Klara...yeah, in universe you're probably right that she's in a bad way, but out of universe, I was glad she was gone. I felt like she never added anything to the team and didn't fit well with the team. In universe, I'm just going to tell myself the Runaways realized they were totally unqualified to care for her and made what seemed like the best choice they could at the time.

[Rater202]

I really like the new Runaways ongoing. Honestly, I think this is the first time since Vaughn that someone's really had an idea of what to do with the Runaways; I felt like most of their other appearances were either kind of directionless or glorified cameos (some of which I still enjoyed, but they didn't lend themselves to an ongoing). The new series actually seems to have a plan, and a direction for the characters to grow in, and I love it.

Regarding Klara...yeah, in-universe you're probably right that she's in a bad way, but out of universe, I was glad she was gone. I felt like she never added anything to the team and didn't fit well with the team. In universe, I'm just going to tell myself the Runaways realized they were totally unqualified to care for her and made what seemed like the best choice they could at the time.

In-Universe the reason nobody did anything with her was that the run she appeared in was cut short, then they overcame her entire character conflict in the last chapter of Runaways/Young Avengers: Secret Invasion leaving her as just Molly's best friend.

However, she was explicitly taken away. Not given up. Letting her get taken at all is out of character for the Runaways, who treated going into the foster system like a fate worse than death, but nobody cares(Not even Karolina, who was the one most insistant on Klara coming with them and had the worst experiance in Foster Care, or Molly, who was Kalra's best friend.)

Furthermore: the Runaway's two-part bit in Aengers Academy concluded with Giant Man and Tigra agreeing that the best place for Klara and Molly was with the other Runaways.

And the most recent issue has narration that explicitly states that Molly has never had a best friend before, which just...

The author of the current run is on the record as being a major fanon of the first volume and hating everything that happened after Gert died. And this is a perfect example of why you don't let a person who hates most of a series write for it--she just cmpletly wrote out the character she didn't right and has everyone act out of character regarding her.Also Nico is suddenly atracted to Karolina even though she was straight before and the solits for a couple issues from now imply that Karolina and Julie are gonna break up soon. Couple that with the implciation that Karolina now thinks that her relationship with Xavin was a mistake, and it comes across as the author twisting characters for the sake of a ship.

It's not quite at Running the Asylum levels yet, since the writing is good and makes sense other than the Klara thing, but still.

It's getting to the point that I'm considering working Klara into one of my fanfics just becuase I feel bad that her own series is treating her so poorly.

Right now my worst fear is that it's going to be revealed that she died of M-Pox offscrean.

[Starbuck_II]

I am loving Spiderman-Deadpool.

Also Spiderman II. Especially the ending

Gwen and May for daughters.
I wonder if we will ever return to that alternate dimension.

[GameSpawn]

In-Universe the reason nobody did anything with her was that the run she appeared in was cut short, then they overcame her entire character conflict in the last chapter of Runaways/Young Avengers: Secret Invasion leaving her as just Molly's best friend.

However, she was explicitly taken away. Not given up. Letting her get taken at all is out of character for the Runaways, who treated going into the foster system like a fate worse than death, but nobody cares(Not even Karolina, who was the one most insistant on Klara coming with them and had the worst experiance in Foster Care, or Molly, who was Kalra's best friend.)

Furthermore: the Runaway's two-part bit in Aengers Academy concluded with Giant Man and Tigra agreeing that the best place for Klara and Molly was with the other Runaways.

And the most recent issue has narration that explicitly states that Molly has never had a best friend before, which just...

The author of the current run is on the record as being a major fanon of the first volume and hating everything that happened after Gert died. And this is a perfect example of why you don't let a person who hates most of a series write for it--she just cmpletly wrote out the character she didn't right and has everyone act out of character regarding her.Also Nico is suddenly atracted to Karolina even though she was straight before and the solits for a couple issues from now imply that Karolina and Julie are gonna break up soon. Couple that with the implciation that Karolina now thinks that her relationship with Xavin was a mistake, and it comes across as the author twisting characters for the sake of a ship.

It's not quite at Running the Asylum levels yet, since the writing is good and makes sense other than the Klara thing, but still.

It's getting to the point that I'm considering working Klara into one of my fanfics just becuase I feel bad that her own series is treating her so poorly.

Right now my worst fear is that it's going to be revealed that she died of M-Pox offscrean.

I guess I forgot all the details of that. I will say, though; The Runaways are in a very different place now than they were at the end of the Avengers Academy appearance, where they were still pretty united IIRC, but at the beginning of the current series they're much more splintered. That said...I think we might just see this differently because we have different ways of looking at an expansive universe. If a writer feels like they need to write a character out of the series so they can make the series work better, I'd rather they do that, even if it's a bit awkward. I've seen series that I liked die because they tried to incorporate two many characters. I understand that some people feel differently, of course.

I don't really see a problem with Nico realizing she's attracted to Karolina now. Lots of people realize they're bi in their late teens or later. I don't especially want them to get together, but if it happens, that part of it wouldn't bother me at all.

[Rater202]

There's still stuff that could be done with Klara though--Gert was dead when Klara was recruited. It's actually a plot point since earliar versions of her parents are antagonists in that arc.

Meaning that Gert and Klara never knew each other.

You could get at least a good chapter or maybe a running subplot about their first meeting and how they feel about each other, and writing Klara out completly with a handwave and then completly ignoring her existance squanders the oportunity.

[BRC]

There's still stuff that could be done with Klara though--Gert was dead when Klara was recruited. It's actually a plot point since earliar versions of her parents are antagonists in that arc.

Meaning that Gert and Klara never knew each other.

You could get at least a good chapter or maybe a running subplot about their first meeting and how they feel about each other, and writing Klara out completly with a handwave and then completly ignoring her existance squanders the oportunity.

Eh, I don't mind Klara exiting the series. She was okay as a character, but she wasn't really part of the team for any of the good parts of the earlier series, and she's kind of an odd one out as far as the Found Family Dynamic goes. Even in the time-travel arc where she was introduced, I don't recall her ever making a strong impression, or having a strong role in the group dynamic beyond "Another young girl for Molly to hang out with".

I don't hate the character, but I don't think she really ads anything to the story, and in a series heavily based on letting the characters bounce off one another, she would mostly just muck up the works.


Edit: I also think the current run is really benefiting from all the characters being, more or less, "Normal" as far as their backgrounds. The Runaway's strength as a series was often because it played with the middle ground between the mundane and extraordinary. These kids wern't professional superheroes. Their abilities may have been extraordinary, but their "Costumes" were ordinary street clothes, their Codenames were a half-forgotten joke. They bantered and acted like a bunch of kids, rather than larger-than-life superheroes, and a good deal of the fun of the series was exploring how these, somewhat normalish characters reacted to living an extraordinary life.

The current run is very much playing into that dynamic, at least for the time being, and having a banished alien warlord or a time-lost girl in the mix would get in the way of that. Klara and Xavin can't really partake in the whole "How do these normal kids deal with having one foot in the superhero world" thing, because Klara is dealing with a century's worth of culture shock, and Xavin exists firmly within the crazy world of capes and spandex.

[Rater202]

Okay, that's fine.

But Klara was written out entirely via the other Runaways acting out of character--she gets mentioned once and nobody, not Karolina, not Molly, nobody seems to care about her.

[BRC]

Okay, that's fine.

But Klara was written out entirely via the other Runaways acting out of character--she gets mentioned once and nobody, not Karolina, not Molly, nobody seems to care about her.

Eh, not really.


The conceit of the new series is that, with all relevant dangers passed, they didn't really have a strong reason to keep living together, and moved on to other, more stable things. Nico got an apartment and did some superheroing, Karolina went to College, Molly moved in with her grandmother. Only Chase was still living in a hideout, and he's hardly equipped to take care of her.

Klara was put in Foster Care, which was probably the best thing for her. She's safe and stable right now, probably living a far better life than she would with the Runaways. Gert was invested in getting the family back together, but Gert missed the whole part where they went their separate ways for not-terrible reasons. They were fine with Molly living with her grandmother. Gert was the real Anti-Authoritarian in the group. As the others moved to, essentially, rejoin ordinary society, it makes sense that they would be fine with Klara getting a normal home.

[Rater202]

Eh, not really.


The conceit of the new series is that, with all relevant dangers passed, they didn't really have a strong reason to keep living together, and moved on to other, more stable things. Nico got an apartment and did some superheroing, Karolina went to College, Molly moved in with her grandmother. Only Chase was still living in a hideout, and he's hardly equipped to take care of her.

Klara was put in Foster Care, which was probably the best thing for her. She's safe and stable right now, probably living a far better life than she would with the Runaways. Gert was invested in getting the family back together, but Gert missed the whole part where they went their separate ways for not-terrible reasons. They were fine with Molly living with her grandmother. Gert was the real Anti-Authoritarian in the group. As the others moved to, essentially, rejoin ordinary society, it makes sense that they would be fine with Klara getting a normal home.

Except for the part where the previous series treated Foster Care like it was prison, the California Foster System being overcrowded and underfunded(with Karolina personally having ended up with Foster Parents who were strong out on drugs all the time), so between that and Klara being a mutant and thus automatically hated by roughly a third of the country what are the real chances that she's in a good foster home?

Klara literally only trusts the other Runaways and is a possibly autistic and emotonally abused rape victim from over a hundred years ago. There's no way that normal foster parents are equipped to take careof her.

And that's assuming that she actually ended up with Foster PArentsinstead of in a group home. All that's been said is that Child Services took her away.

The most recent chapter explicitly states that that Molly has never had a best friend before. Except she did. Her name was Klara.

She's mentioned once and then her very existance is ignored. That's bad writing.

[Man on Fire]

Then you missed a rather massive arc were in she starts working with this group that have decided to go capture people who have not yet committed crimes.

But according to a computer only 1 or 2 of them can operate, based on "Good Science Criteria that ISN'T profiling we swear really take our word for it Minority Super Heroine!" these people are GOING to commit crimes.

The fact that all the "Crimes" and "Critera" involve being people that the typical extremely far left American political activist would deem "Problematic." is entirely beside the point dear reader please pay it no mind. Also pay no mind that were apparently predicting these crimes so very far into the future that the people who are alleged to commit them down the road haven't even though of doing so yet.



And of course she eats this up and backs it and goes about wtih this group using there super powers to kidnap people out of there homes. No Lawyers. No Right to Privacy. No Warrants. No actual physical crimes or evidence or victims. No Trial. No Jury. The people taking you in are your Judges, Jailers and Executioners. Period. No Appealing to higher authority. No legal recourse or defense at all.

You. Have. No. Rights. And she's 100% ok with this and defends it until it's done to someone she knows personally. And even then she doesn't throw the system under the bus for an altogether too long period of time. Because she believes in this kind of a system and it's rightness and superiority to alternatives.

Oh, and the friend/love interest who starts to finally make her think it's within the realms of conceivability this might, maybe, just possibly, and this is a crazy though, be potentially a little bit wrong to do? When he got arrested for a future crime he wasn't even considering at the time?

He get's permanently maimed by the end of the matter. He's gonna spend the rest of his natural life in a wheel chair as a direct consequence of her taking that path. And SHE is the one that the authors rather brazenly think you, dear reader, should feel sorry for.






We have a term of this kind of behavior. It's called Fascism. And her problem with it wasn't that at it's core the system is horrible and should be opposed at every turn. That it's Barbaric and Sub human and monstrous at every step and level form inception to every form of conceivable implementation through out time and space.

Her problem was that the computer program made 1 mistake, there for it wasn't reliable enough for her to be acting on it. Again, not the human rights violations that actually bug her. Her personal inner circle getting hurt and rightfully shunning her for her BS, and the comp goofing. Offer her a "better" computer and program and she'd do it all again.



Ergo, the character is dead to me. They have made certain to ruin her in a way that there really, ultimately, isn't going to be an acceptable recovery form. At least, not form this crop of writers. Now, sure, if you gave it to someone competent and told them to make getting her over the fact that this black mark is in her past a priority, they could probably pull it off. But this crop doesn't really think Ms. Marvel was in the wrong in the first place, so, that's never gonna happen long as they are working for Marvel.

The New Editor In Chief Can't fire the whole lot of them fast enough.

I came to this thread to complain about something but HOLY COW evertyhing you've said is a lie said by someone who does nto read comics. Maybe istead of watching videos by Diversity & Comics, who lies about the contents of a story to push his political agenda you will actually read a book yourself?

Eh, let me get through this sea of lies, why not.


Then you missed a rather massive arc were in she starts working with this group that have decided to go capture people who have not yet committed crimes

She does so at the request of her mentor and idol whom she adores but she queickly starts questioning their actions. In fact she gets first "something is wrong" hint where Becky, leader of the group, makes a rather racist side-note.


But according to a computer only 1 or 2 of them can operate, based on "Good Science Criteria that ISN'T profiling we swear really take our word for it Minority Super Heroine!" these people are GOING to commit crimes.


Except it is very quickly pointed in the story that YES, this is profiling. That's the point.


The fact that all the "Crimes" and "Critera" involve being people that the typical extremely far left American political activist would deem "Problematic."

LIE!
We see only two cases of such crimes being stopped. One guy STOLE A TANK and was riding it down the street and the other would blow up his school. And the fact that the other guy is a straight white male who is being profiled is used to show Becky, the villain of the arc, as being in the wrong. it's the moment she first shows her true colors.


And of course she eats this up and backs it and goes about wtih this group using there super powers to kidnap people out of there homes. No Lawyers. No Right to Privacy. No Warrants. No actual physical crimes or evidence or victims. No Trial. No Jury. The people taking you in are your Judges, Jailers and Executioners. Period. No Appealing to higher authority. No legal recourse or defense at all.

You. Have. No. Rights. And she's 100% ok with this and defends it until it's done to someone she knows personally.

Except that this being done to a guy she knows personally WAS THE VERY FIRST TIME the system has been used to kidnapp someone from his house and put him to jail without a trial. The very first time. And Kamala is horrified when it happens.


And even then she doesn't throw the system under the bus for an altogether too long period of time. Because she believes in this kind of a system and it's rightness and superiority to alternatives.

Again, she does not. She tries to appeal to Carol, her idol and person she wants to be like, and convince her this is wrong but Carol convinces her that the system can work and she needs to ensure abuses of power like those done by Becky don't happen. Kamala tries but fails to reing Becky in.


Oh, and the friend/love interest who starts to finally make her think it's within the realms of conceivability this might, maybe, just possibly, and this is a crazy though, be potentially a little bit wrong to do? When he got arrested for a future crime he wasn't even considering at the time?

He get's permanently maimed by the end of the matter. He's gonna spend the rest of his natural life in a wheel chair as a direct consequence of her taking that path. And SHE is the one that the authors rather brazenly think you, dear reader, should feel sorry for.

Not only a ton of LIES, again, but also an absolute lack of reading comprehension to the point you merged two different characters into one.
Josh is the guy who got arrested for a crime he had only considered but ot yet done. Josh is ex of Kamala's bully-tuned friend who was hanging out with her crowd hoping to get together with his ex-girlfriend. In later arc he said he never felt like Kamala's friend, more a fifth wheel.
Bruno is Kamala's best friend/love interest. He tried to blow up the place Josh is being held in and got himself maimed in the process, ending up with severe disability. And you know what? He tears Kamala a new one for it and breaks their friendship, never wanting to see her again. He later shows up in an issue all built to make us feel sorry for him. This is not presented as some "woe is to be Kamala, feel bad for her for her life is soo bad". It's presented as "Kamala's msitakes catch up to her". Because that what this story is - Kamala trusting her idol and making a mistake that costs her dearly. Everyone loved it when they did it to Parker in first Civil War!


We have a term of this kind of behavior. It's called Fascism. And her problem with it wasn't that at it's core the system is horrible and should be opposed at every turn. That it's Barbaric and Sub human and monstrous at every step and level form inception to every form of conceivable implementation through out time and space.

Her problem was that the computer program made 1 mistake, there for it wasn't reliable enough for her to be acting on it. Again, not the human rights violations that actually bug her. Her personal inner circle getting hurt and rightfully shunning her for her BS, and the comp goofing. Offer her a "better" computer and program and she'd do it all again.

Again, you are telling a LIE! No, it was not that the "program" (by the way, way to show you don't read comics as it was a guy with superpowers not a program) made one mistake (which he didn't really, even Josh was planning to blow up the school). It wasn't that her friends got personally targetted. It was that she was too blindsinded by faith in her idol to realzie the implications of what this is, the fascism and violation of human rights, before it hit people she cares about. She made a msitake. Because she is a 16-years old kid and a normal human being.

You know what, this pisses me off to no end. Your right-winged lot ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS keep yapping and yapping how the diverse heroes cannot be perfect and need to be flawed, need to make msitakes, need to be vurnerable and suffer loses to be relatable and to be real characters and not just mouthpieces. But the moment one of them makes a msitake and suffers for it LIKE YOU WANTED, you are getting mad she didn't made the right choice from the get go, that she wasn't the idealized ms. perfect who always makes only the right choices and never does anything wrong. Decide what you actually want!


t least, not form this crop of writers. Now, sure, if you gave it to someone competent and told them to make getting her over the fact that this black mark is in her past a priority, they could probably pull it off. But this crop doesn't really think Ms. Marvel was in the wrong in the first place, so, that's never gonna happen long as they are working for Marvel.

Except the VERY SAME WRITER who wrote that story then wrote an arc where following happens:
a) Josh comes back as a supervillain seeking revenge because his life is ruined
and
b) Kamala realizes this and other mistakes she made turned public against superhumans and they appointed same fascists (and a literal Nazi) tohunt them down
So Kamala was still paying for the consequences of her mistakes, they milked it out n an entire another story and it then lead to her even quitting for an arc later feeling she screwed up too much, until her cousin talked her out of it.


Ergo, the character is dead to me.
She was always dead to you because you don't read comics, watching videos by notorious liar Richard C. Meyers does not count as actually being real comics fan.

[t209]

Except for the part where the previous series treated Foster Care like it was prison, the California Foster System being overcrowded and underfunded(with Karolina personally having ended up with Foster Parents who were strong out on drugs all the time), so between that and Klara being a mutant and thus automatically hated by roughly a third of the country what are the real chances that she's in a good foster home?

Klara literally only trusts the other Runaways and is a possibly autistic and emotonally abused rape victim from over a hundred years ago. There's no way that normal foster parents are equipped to take careof her.

And that's assuming that she actually ended up with Foster PArentsinstead of in a group home. All that's been said is that Child Services took her away.

The most recent chapter explicitly states that that Molly has never had a best friend before. Except she did. Her name was Klara.

She's mentioned once and then her very existance is ignored. That's bad writing.
Or trying to tie-in to the show.
"Hey, Klara wasn't in our new series. That would make people confusing without knowledge about past series. Better to set her aside."

[Rater202]

Or trying to tie-in to the show.
"Hey, Klara wasn't in our new series. That would make people confusing without knowledge about past series. Better to set her aside."

Except they brought back Victor, reverse Cyborg son of Ultron, and he was dead.

...I have got to read Vision 2015 one of these days. I'm hoping it'll explain why Tony only sent chase Victor's head for burial instead of the whole body. Or why he sent it in the mail without so much as a note saying "these are Victor's mortal remains."

[Man on Fire]

Sure I can. It's her canon. The writers have had time to clean it up if they wanted too.


They don't, and haven't.

Except that the series is to this day dealing with consequences of the arc? You know, the ACTUAL consequences that grew from the mistake she made that is shown as a mistake?




And no, there pretty clearly explicit about her questioning it once she sees it's someone she knows. The fact that there profiling comes out AFTER she starts questioning it to help support that position because the writers, by now, have realized they have good and shot themselves in the foot with this little storyline. Not that anything in it is wrong in there minds mind you, just that they've figured out it what it makes them look like. And being that honest they figured was a bad plan.

Once again, you tell a big, fat, LIE!
Kamala starts questioning the program after arresting Hinjix, when her sister-in-law pointed out to her that predictive justice is not much different from profiling and what consequences that had. Josh being arrested served as a wake-up call to make her realize those words were true.



By that logic kid she knew should have been out the following morning and I seem to recall them holding him notably longer then that. And guy with exploding tank should have been out in a couple of hours. He certainly got held longer then that. So, that's not a valid defense, sorry.

Guy with an exploding tank stole that tank, that's why he wasn't released. Josh similiarly was about to be released but Bruno blew up the place.


And all of this leaves out the points that she's suppose to be this Oh So Very Smart Oh So Very Genera Savvy Geek Girl who's Oh So Very Politically Savvy already and Oh So Very Wise Beyond Her Years. Which, I was willing to buy into. I did buy into.

You didn't. Because this was NEVER her thing. Kamala was never this super smart, political savvy and especially not Wise Beyond Her Years character. She is a normal teenage girl. If she gives some message it's one she herself learned as a result of her own character development, that was always her thing. You only show you have never ever read a single of her adventures, at least not from beginning to the end, if you didn't realize that. Instead you held her to a standard the character never aspired to to have a convenient excuse to condemn her the moment she doesn't measure to it.


And then this happened. This was her having her One More Day moment, except that she didn't wait 45 years for it. She did it early on to make sure you knew you could no longer trust anything that's suppose to be a fundamental tennent of who this person is. For crying out loud she beats you about the head regularly with the Oppressed Minority Group(s)TM, and doesn't recognize "Were going to get people for things they haven't done yet and set precedent for wiping out there rights just on our say so that if we don't they will eventually do bad things! Really you can trust us cause there's no chance any of us would ever be wrong or lie or abuse this kind of un limited power!" as the sort of thing that could quickly, and trivially easily be used to make sure those minority groups stay oppressed? Or worse, get wiped out when half your bad guys want to do that too them whole sale?! Are you KIDDING ME?!

Again, you sir, are a LIAR! "For crying out loud she beats you about the head regularly with the Oppressed Minority Group(s)TM," is a lie. That was again, never her thing at that point. Sure, her being Pakistani Muslim was part of her identity and they didn't sugarcoat some of the aspects of being one in modern America, but she was not all about the "opressed minority", just the reality of her life. In fact, before Civil War II the book much more preffered to talk about political subjects using safer metaphors. When they wanted to talk about constent and victim blaming they used a guy luring Kamala into supervillain plan, when they wanted to talk about post 9/11 islamophobia it was done through Inhumans metaphor (Kamala fought an Inhuman supervillain who vieved normal people as inferior and mentioned that every time someone tries to terrorize people like this, people who look like that person suffer for it) and if it became more openly preachy after...well, you can have only people like you to blame for going out of your way to demonize the book regardless.

And once again, you prove you don't actually read the series you are complaining about, by the way. Are ALL your opinions really based on videos by known liar Diversity & Comics and his ilk?

Also, one thing that makes it impossible to compare Kamala to Peter in OMD or Batman in your example. Kamala is a teenager. A naive one at that. Naivety and being too trustful was a thing established as a part of her character in very first issue, when she failed to see Zoe's invitation to the part was a ruse to humilate her despite how obviously fake Zoe's kidness was. It also got her kidnapped by a boy she liked and almost forced to aid Lineage in overthrowing Medusa because again, she trusted wrong person too much. Her trusting her idol enough to not see obvious red flags carried by Becky is enteirly in character. Her not thinking things through and making msitakes was also established, you don't need to look further than 3 issues before that to see how she caused a city-wide chaos through a rather stupid idea. And again, she is a teenager. Part of the appeal of teen heroes is they can make msitakes we would not forgive experienced adult veterans for - because they're still figuring things out!

But hey, I guess it's easier fighting an opponent made out of straw than a real one.


And you know, I'd be willing to let it go and give them another chance if they really wanted to fix it. Instead, they want to tell me the victimizer in this whole thing, Ms. Marvel (who, make no mistake, was decidedly the victimizer the whole way through.), is really the one I should really and truly feel sorry for because she's the real victim here! Not the innocent guy who literally never committed a crime and got permanently stuck in a wheel chair for the rest of his natural life. No, the person who made sure that happened to him is the one who really demands my sympathy damn it!

Lalalalalalalala LIE! LIE! LIE! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkPbJIlEXow)

Again, there is a LOT of sympathy directed for Bruno, including devoting entire issue to see how much he has to struggle coping with his disability. If there is sympathy directed for Kamala in this arc it is done through the lenses of her having to deal with consequences of her own mistakes. The fact you fail or rather refuse to acknowledge it only shows how dedicated you are to not actually having an argument but demonizing the character at all costs to push your own agenda.

[t209]

Except they brought back Victor, reverse Cyborg son of Ultron, and he was dead.

...I have got to read Vision 2015 one of these days. I'm hoping it'll explain why Tony only sent chase Victor's head for burial instead of the whole body. Or why he sent it in the mail without so much as a note saying "these are Victor's mortal remains."
Well, Victor is still part of the Hulu, better to revive him to make connection with audience.

[Rater202]

Well, Victor is still part of the Hulu, better to revive him to make connection with audience.

Victor Mancha, not Victor Stein.

Victor the Cyborg is not only not in the Hulu series, he's not even part of the MCU and I don't think he can be based on how Ultron was handled, barring a massive change in his characterization.