NPC Mage is too easy, but NPC Wizard too hard

[johnbragg]

Is there a spellcasting monster in between that I can reskin as the evil wizard BBEG of Phandelver?

A 5th edition DM I know says you can just build the villain PC-style. If I did that, would the CR for a 5th level wizard still be 5?

(I found PC-NPC transparency very intuitive and useful in 3rd edition, and I'm kind of groping in teh dark without it.)

[magic2345]

Volo's Guide to Monsters has a lot of NPC spellcasters you can use. You can probably find something in there that fits.

[hymer]

By 'Wizard' do you mean 'Archmage'? I don't know any Wizard stat block.
As for level compared to CR, there is no formula. You would have to use the DMG rules for finding out a creature's CR on a specific level 5 wizard build to find out what CR it should be. And casters are notoriously hard to pin down, CR-wise.

There are various official spellcasters in Volo's Guide to Monsters, from 3 to 9 (though I don't think every CR is covered).

Edit: Partial shadowmonk.

[Unoriginal]

Is there a spellcasting monster in between that I can reskin as the evil wizard BBEG of Phandelver?

A 5th edition DM I know says you can just build the villain PC-style. If I did that, would the CR for a 5th level wizard still be 5?

(I found PC-NPC transparency very intuitive and useful in 3rd edition, and I'm kind of groping in teh dark without it.)

What about the Mage make you think they're too weak, if you want a CR 5?

You could just change the NPC statblock spell list, if you wanted

Otherwise, as others said, you could get one of the other spellcaster statblocks from the Volo's

[johnbragg]

What about the Mage make you think they're too weak, if you want a CR 5?

Well, they beat up a 4th level arcane caster spellblock in the town when they were 2nd level. So I'm very skeptical that a similar statblock will challenge them now that they're 4th level towards the end of the module.

They're also likely to have to get through a flameskull before they get to the BBEG, so I don't want the BBEG to be weaker than his mini-bosses.


You could just change the NPC statblock spell list, if you wanted

Otherwise, as others said, you could get one of the other spellcaster statblocks from the Volo's

Volo's is probably my answer.

[JackPhoenix]

Off-hand, CR for a level 5 PC would be around 2.

If you mean Evil Mage NPC from LMoP, it's CR 1, proper Mage NPC (a level 9 spellcaster) from MM is CR 6. I'm not aware of any Wizard NPC (unless you mean CR 1/4 Apprentice Wizard). There isn't much for CR 2, but Crushing Wave Priest from Elemental Evil is, despite the name, closer to level 5 sorcerer. For CR 3, there are other elemental spellcasters from the same source, Skyweaver, Eternal Flame Priest, Black Earth Priest and One-Eyed Shiver. All are level 5 spellcasters, with Eternal Flame Priest having the most damage with fire spells, others are more manageable for lower level group. At the same CR, Volo's has an Illusionist, who's level 7 spellcaster, but doesn't have much in the way of damage, so he could still be appropriate for a low-level party.

PC-NPC transparency in 3e was next to useless, as the actual CR said nothing about how hard the NPC was. Optimized wizard was supposedly just as dangerous as, say, spear and shield, unoptimized fighter. Yeah... no.

[Unoriginal]

Off-hand, CR for a level 5 PC would be around 2.

If you mean Evil Mage NPC from LMoP, it's CR 1, proper Mage NPC (a level 9 spellcaster) from MM is CR 6.

True, I forgot about the Evil Mage NPC. Have you looked at the Mage statblock in the MM, OP?



PC-NPC transparency in 3e was next to useless, as the actual CR said nothing about how hard the NPC was. Optimized wizard was supposedly just as dangerous as, say, spear and shield, unoptimized fighter. Yeah... no.

Also true

[johnbragg]

Off-hand, CR for a level 5 PC would be around 2.

If you mean Evil Mage NPC from LMoP, it's CR 1, proper Mage NPC (a level 9 spellcaster) from MM is CR 6. I'm not aware of any Wizard NPC (unless you mean CR 1/4 Apprentice Wizard).

Yes, I'm sorry everyone, the CR 6 spellcaster I saw was the MM Mage, a 9th level wizard.

Evil Mage is a CR 1, 4th level spellcaster from LMoP, Nezznar the Black Spider is a CR 2, 4th level drow spellcaster.


There isn't much for CR 2, but Crushing Wave Priest from Elemental Evil is, despite the name, closer to level 5 sorcerer. For CR 3, there are other elemental spellcasters from the same source, Skyweaver, Eternal Flame Priest, Black Earth Priest and One-Eyed Shiver. All are level 5 spellcasters, with Eternal Flame Priest having the most damage with fire spells, others are more manageable for lower level group. At the same CR, Volo's has an Illusionist, who's level 7 spellcaster, but doesn't have much in the way of damage, so he could still be appropriate for a low-level party.

I saw the Illusionist this morning, and looks just about right. If I swap out his spells for a lot more battlefield-control and some blasting, does he stay a CR 3?


PC-NPC transparency in 3e was next to useless, as the actual CR said nothing about how hard the NPC was. Optimized wizard was supposedly just as dangerous as, say, spear and shield, unoptimized fighter. Yeah... no.

All very true, but over the last 17 years we developed plenty of coping mechanisms and workarounds for that. Transparency let me build the monsters and encounters at the party's difficulty level, and I just didn't worry much about the CR--using the encounters per level guideline, I just rated the encounters as Easy(x1/2)/Medium(x1)/Hard(x2) after the fact and never even did the XP math, just tracked 10 encounters = 1 level. I mean, I used the Monster Manual CR as a base for level-appropriate stuff, and either tweaked the encounter or not. But that's a decade-plus knowledge base that I don't have with 5E.

I suppose the most important thing I mean by transparency is PCs and NPCs used the same action economy. I gather that the designers had a formula ("Well a brute of CR X is should be doing Y DPR, and is using weapons in the damage dice range A-B, so they need Multiattack to get them up to the DPR they should be at") that I don't have access to, and I don't have a "feel" for yet. 3rd, I could take a CR = APL brute, give it max HP and slap a few templates on it, maybe give it some goons, and it would work fairly well. Or take a CR = APL magical opponent and it was usually good without boosting. (Maybe goons).

I'm trying to play by the 5E rules (in this case the interaction of encounter difficulty, XP rewards and level progression), at least until we understand them fairly well.

[DragonBaneDM]

I saw the Illusionist this morning, and looks just about right. If I swap out his spells for a lot more battlefield-control and some blasting, does he stay a CR 3?


Not necessarily. Here's a tool I use when changing up damage, AC, to hit, save DCs, etc to try and modify monster CR:
http://1-dot-encounterplanner.appspot.com/quick-monster-stats.html

Now, this tool isn't perfect. It doesn't account for stuff like resistance or ways to get advantage. But it does do a good job with taking the highest damaging move and plugging it in. For example, if this guy knows Fireball, plug that damage in like it hit 3 targets.

A good way to show just how potent a single spell can be to a monster is the Enchanter from Volos. That mage knows Fireball, but if you take that away, their CR drops drastically.

[Pelle]

A good way to show just how potent a single spell can be to a monster is the Enchanter from Volos. That mage knows Fireball, but if you take that away, their CR drops drastically.

Is he called Tim?

[intermedial]

This fantastic article on The Monsters Know pretty clearly demonstrates how the Mage NPC stat block should be used with efficacy (http://themonstersknow.com/npc-tactics-mages/). It's a very dangerous creature, largely because of the combination of greater invisibility, counterspell fireball, and shield yielding a potent defensive and offensive combination which is far stronger than it's meager 40 HP represent. It's a very appropriate challenge for 5th or 6th level characters, although a somewhat punishing one for a party that lacks a bard or druid with faerie fire.

If you're looking for something in the CR 3 or 4 range, the Hobgoblin Devastator from Volo's Guide to Monsters is a pretty simple and effective blaster. It lacks defensive magic, so it's a good one to pair with minions.

[Unoriginal]

Yes, I'm sorry everyone, the CR 6 spellcaster I saw was the MM Mage, a 9th level wizard.

Evil Mage is a CR 1, 4th level spellcaster from LMoP, Nezznar the Black Spider is a CR 2, 4th level drow spellcaster.

Well, you could add a couple of HDs and maybe one or two 5th level spells to Nezznar, to increase their CR.

Or you could take the MM Mage, remove spells and HD until the CR you desire is reached, then add the Drow racial modifiers.



I saw the Illusionist this morning, and looks just about right. If I swap out his spells for a lot more battlefield-control and some blasting, does he stay a CR 3?

Depends which spells, but it will probably at minimum make them CR 4 if you want to give them notable blast spells.




All very true, but over the last 17 years we developed plenty of coping mechanisms and workarounds for that.

One develop coping mechanisms to deal with trauma or repeated ****ty situations. If a game makes you develop coping mechanisms, it's not worth playing it.



I suppose the most important thing I mean by transparency is PCs and NPCs used the same action economy. I gather that the designers had a formula ("Well a brute of CR X is should be doing Y DPR, and is using weapons in the damage dice range A-B, so they need Multiattack to get them up to the DPR they should be at") that I don't have access to, and I don't have a "feel" for yet.

The formula is in the DMG.


IMO, though, given how your group could handle a Spectator + Flying Swords without problems, do you think that a CR 6 Mage facing them alone would be an issue?


This fantastic article on The Monsters Know pretty clearly demonstrates how the Mage NPC stat block should be used with efficacy (http://themonstersknow.com/npc-tactics-mages/). It's a very dangerous creature, largely because of the combination of greater invisibility, counterspell fireball, and shield yielding a potent defensive and offensive combination which is far stronger than it's meager 40 HP represent. It's a very appropriate challenge for 5th or 6th level characters, although a somewhat punishing one for a party that lacks a bard or druid with faerie fire.

If you're looking for something in the CR 3 or 4 range, the Hobgoblin Devastator from Volo's Guide to Monsters is a pretty simple and effective blaster. It lacks defensive magic, so it's a good one to pair with minions.


Good points. Though I cannot vouch for the article.

[johnbragg]

Well, you could add a couple of HDs and maybe one or two 5th level spells to Nezznar, to increase their CR.

Or you could take the MM Mage, remove spells and HD until the CR you desire is reached, then add the Drow racial modifiers.


Depends which spells, but it will probably at minimum make them CR 4 if you want to give them notable blast spells.




One develop coping mechanisms to deal with trauma or repeated ****ty situations. If a game makes you develop coping mechanisms, it's not worth playing it.

Well, we HAVE switched to 5E, which was built upon the experience of fixing some of the design problems and other problems of 3X (and 4E). And we're gradually finding fixes for things that I wouldn't even have thought to ask for--higher level healing potions have a much higher crappy-dice-roll floor. Yay! (I was about to give the players 45 hp no-roll potions until someone thought to look up the actual dice to roll--10d4 + 20. 30 HP ain't bad.)




The formula is in the DMG.

IMO, though, given how your group could handle a Spectator + Flying Swords without problems, do you think that a CR 6 Mage facing them alone would be an issue?

Well, they made more saving throws then they failed against the Spectator.

It's 2 9 year olds, a 12 year old and Mommy the grognard. And I made the new-to-5E mistake of giving out great stats. So tactical sense is very uneven, and some "level-appropriate challenges" are cakewalks, some (like a blaster wizard) could be campaign-enders. Cone of cold (average damage 36) followed by a fireball (average damage 28) drops anyone in the party who gets hit with both and fails both saves. Even if they pass both saves, they're on their last dozen hit points.

I'd like to ease them into teaching them combat vs spellcasters. I think maybe just tweak Nezznar, giving him slow and thematic minions. (He already has Giant Spiders, throw in some Swarms of Spiders).

Actually, maybe I'll just leave Nezznar at the level he's at, and teach the players the power of spells like mirror image (fire-and-forget, 1 minute) and flaming sphere (concentration), not to mention his drow-granted faerie fire (concentration). 5E learning curve, he can only use one concentration spell at a time. Hmm.

[Armored Walrus]

Just so you're aware, OP. The encounter with Black Spider as written is a "hard" encounter for 4, 4th level PCs. (CR2 black spider plus 2 CR1 Giant Spiders). Add in the fact that there's a distinct possibility that they'll have to fight the lieutenant (CR3 doppleganger) at the same time, and you have a potentially "deadly" encounter.

I think you could run it as written and just play with smart tactics and you'll have enough challenge. Although, as with most lower-level combat, there's always the possibility that a handful of good rolls will just trash the encounter.

Edit: I would open with faerie fire and let the minions benefit from that for a bit. If they kill the minions off, he'll have to try to kite the party and get them bunched up for a flaming sphere.

[Unoriginal]

Well, they made more saving throws then they failed against the Spectator.

It's 2 9 year olds, a 12 year old and Mommy the grognard. And I made the new-to-5E mistake of giving out great stats. So tactical sense is very uneven, and some "level-appropriate challenges" are cakewalks, some (like a blaster wizard) could be campaign-enders. Cone of cold (average damage 36) followed by a fireball (average damage 28) drops anyone in the party who gets hit with both and fails both saves. Even if they pass both saves, they're on their last dozen hit points.

I'd like to ease them into teaching them combat vs spellcasters. I think maybe just tweak Nezznar, giving him slow and thematic minions. (He already has Giant Spiders, throw in some Swarms of Spiders).

Actually, maybe I'll just leave Nezznar at the level he's at, and teach the players the power of spells like mirror image (fire-and-forget, 1 minute) and flaming sphere (concentration), not to mention his drow-granted faerie fire (concentration). 5E learning curve, he can only use one concentration spell at a time. Hmm.

Have you considered simply replacing the Cone of Cold on the Mage's spell list with a 5th level protective spell? Like Wall of Stone or similar.

Or you could give this Nezzar!Mage spells like Animate Object or Conjure Elemental, to give him mooks to use in this boss battle/justify some of the encounters in this dungeon.

[Tanarii]

Well, we HAVE switched to 5E, which was built upon the experience of fixing some of the design problems and other problems of 3X (and 4E). And we're gradually finding fixes for things that I wouldn't even have thought to ask for--higher level healing potions have a much higher crappy-dice-roll floor. Yay! (I was about to give the players 45 hp no-roll potions until someone thought to look up the actual dice to roll--10d4 + 20. 30 HP ain't bad.) You're handing out Potions of Supreme Healing, a Very Rare (ie top tier) consumable item, to a level 4 group? Yeah, that's a little bit beyond "ain't bad". Those are only a 1% chance to find one of those per Treasure Hoard (as the only magic item it contains) at levels 5-10 if randomly rolled.

[johnbragg]

You're handing out Potions of Supreme Healing, a Very Rare (ie top tier) consumable item, to a level 4 group? Yeah, that's a little bit beyond "ain't bad". Those are only a 1% chance to find one of those per Treasure Hoard (as the only magic item it contains) at levels 5-10 if randomly rolled.

Well, I think the module placed a +1 mace with an anti-undead property and a + 1 breastplate, which I swapped out for the potions.

From your tone, I deduce that I was overly generous, but I figure there's a limit to how unbalancing a consumable can be. The great thing about potions is they get used up and they're gone. I don't want to start the magic treadmill, but I wanted to drop some treasure that the players would use, and

[Specter]

Yes, a 5th-level PC is CR5. A CR determines an easy encounter for a group of PCs, and 4 level 5s should trump 1 easily. Minion up.

Of course, CR is merely a guideline. A Half-Orc Trasmuter plays very differently from a Human Diviner with Resilient (CON) at that level.

[Tanarii]

Yes, a 5th-level PC is CR5.Have you tried actually measuring that? Because my instinct is to say no way. In general, if you measure a PC by the DMG rules, they come out about 1/2 to 2/3 of their levels. Depending on the build and how nova-heavy they are.

There's a reason blaster-built NPC casters with FAR more hit points than PC's of the equivalent class still come out at 2/3 of their level as CR.

[Unoriginal]

Yes, a 5th-level PC is CR5.

Not true at all.

The average scores for CR 5 given in the DMG AC 15, 131-145 HP, +6 to hit, 33-38 damage per round, and 15 save DC (if they have the appropriate abilities)

A lvl 5 character can have more AC, but their HPs will rarely reach 65 (HPs for CR 1/2). They can have 6 to hit or a bit more, but even with spells they'd be hard-pressed to reliably do more than 30 damages.

Hard to say more without a precise character to calculate, but they're certainly not CR 5. More likely to be CR 2 or maybe 3.


A CR determines an easy encounter for a group of PCs

CR X is around "Medium encounter for 4 PCs of X levels". Easy is if there is more PCs

[JNAProductions]

Yes, a 5th-level PC is CR5. A CR determines an easy encounter for a group of PCs, and 4 level 5s should trump 1 easily. Minion up.

Of course, CR is merely a guideline. A Half-Orc Trasmuter plays very differently from a Human Diviner with Resilient (CON) at that level.

That's a 3rd edition thing. In 5th edition, there is no solid PC of level X equals monster of CR X (or any mutation of X, like X/2 or X*3 or anything).

In general, depending on their burst potential, I'd say a PC will generally be at least CR of X/2, but can go a bit higher.

[Unoriginal]

In general, depending on their burst potential, I'd say a PC will generally be at least CR of X/2, but can go a bit higher.

PCs do big damage, but they have poor health relatively speaking. They're far more likely to have a CR worth between 1/4 and 1/2 their level than higher

EDIT

At least at low level.