Help optimizing certain melee build

[Nuavion]

So, about a week ago I posted a thread asking for help optimizing a warlock/monk build. I was shown some good options for the build. Unfortunately, my DM has not only changed his mind on letting me play a warlock & monk build, but now has new restrictions:

- No homebrew.
- Nothing out of 3.5
- No multiclassing to the point of exp penalty.
- Strict alignment restrictions. Once alignment is chosen, no changing.
- Very strict with the rules. If it's up for discussion, it's probably either not allowed or "rounded down."

I've already started as a half drow tiefling, but everything else is pretty much able to be changed. With that being said, is it even possible to build a somewhat strong character with the following without having to rely on the gear too much? If it relies on gear/equipment, then the DM might (probably) say, "They don't have it," or "Your character wouldn't know that's a thing." Here's the kind of play style I'm hoping for:

- Melee focused, unarmed preferred, but range attacks are a big bonus.
- Ability to teleport in some fashion. Preferably as a swift action so as to still have full attack actions.
- Ability to fly

I was thinking sun soul monk + barb dip for pounce + drunken master if possible, but I don't think the DM would allow a lawful monk and chaotic barb dip and that's the best I've found.

Sorry I keep asking for help with builds. I haven't played much other than a fighter and I know there is plenty that you guys know that I'm unaware of.

Thank you for your time 🙂

[Zaq]

Does “nothing out of 3.5” mean “nothing that comes out of 3.5” (i.e., no 3.5 sources, so only Pathfinder or whatever your primary edition is), or does it mean “nothing outside of 3.5” (i.e., 3.5 material only)?

[weckar]

Are these the default multiclassing exp penalties or something more extreme?

[Gruftzwerg]

Unfortunately, my DM has not only changed his mind on letting me play a warlock & monk build, but now has new restrictions:


Does this mean you aren't allowed to play a monk/warlock now?
and btw, good that you followed the advice to show him the results. Now he knows what to expect.^^




- Strict alignment restrictions. Once alignment is chosen, no changing.
This is a problem imho. Why aren't you allowed to change alignment with proper role play? That is the regular way it is handled..

I am pointing this out because your desire to take something monkish (lawful) with a Barb (chaotic) dip. If you want to have that, you have to convince your DM first. If he is fine with that, you could take the clawlock build I already suggested to you (has no xp penalty by RAW unless you have more strict rules to follow).

If alignment changes are really strict, you have to get around the monk lvls. Take instead fighter lvls and use the extra feats for Improved Unarmed Strike & Stunning Fist. You won't be able to enter Drunken Master due to flurry and evasion requirements which are hard to come by without monk. But you could still enter Enlightened Fist to get monk unarmed dmg progress and more invocations to get Fell Flight. You just need to take the Fist of the Forest lvls first to get the required BAB for Stunning Fist to be able to enter Enlightened Fist.

Since the base race will be human, everything should be without xp penalty

[Nuavion]

Does “nothing out of 3.5” mean “nothing that comes out of 3.5” (i.e., no 3.5 sources, so only Pathfinder or whatever your primary edition is), or does it mean “nothing outside of 3.5” (i.e., 3.5 material only)?
The latter, sorry. 3.5 edition and nothing "altered" to fit 3.5e.


Are these the default multiclassing exp penalties or something more extreme?
I wouldn't be allowed to take another class if I would take a exp penalty for doing so. Pretty much anything that requires exp is a no-go because he wants everyone to remain in almost the exact same exp.

[weckar]

Whoo boy... well, as long as you're still enjoying it. You're probably going to fall behind quickly, though.

[Nuavion]

Does this mean you aren't allowed to play a monk/warlock now?
and btw, good that you followed the advice to show him the results. Now he knows what to expect.^^

This is a problem imho. Why aren't you allowed to change alignment with proper role play? That is the regular way it is handled..

I am pointing this out because your desire to take something monkish (lawful) with a Barb (chaotic) dip. If you want to have that, you have to convince your DM first. If he is fine with that, you could take the clawlock build I already suggested to you (has no xp penalty by RAW unless you have more strict rules to follow).

Unfortunately. I was looking forward to it. I honestly don't think he'd accept a monk barb character either.


If alignment changes are really strict, you have to get around the monk lvls. Take instead fighter lvls and use the extra feats for Improved Unarmed Strike & Stunning Fist. You won't be able to enter Drunken Master due to flurry and evasion requirements which are hard to come by without monk. But you could still enter Enlightened Fist to get monk unarmed dmg progress and more invocations to get Fell Flight. You just need to take the Fist of the Forest lvls first to get the required BAB for Stunning Fist to be able to enter Enlightened Fist.
I like this. I'm going to look into this. 😁


Since the base race will be human, everything should be without xp penalty
I rolled a half drow tiefling warlock and said I might go monk if possible. He was ok with this. Then when I showed him the clawlock build he changed his mind rather quickly and added the restrictions.

Once I explained that I wanted a melee focused build, he said that it wouldn't work starting as a warlock and that I'd die all the time. He gave me the option to change everything I wanted about the character, except that I had to keep the name, race, and ability scores rolled. Though I was allowed to move the ability scores around if need be.

So currently, I'm stuck as Narifein, the half drow tiefling lvl 1 [insert class here]. We couldn't find anything about half drow tieflings, so he made the class on the spot. Which would be home brew, right? Idk but I guess that's his exception.

I couldn't wait to be a high level clawlock 🙁

[Inevitability]

You say 'teleport and full attack', I say 'Shadowpouncer'. By taking levels in either the Telflammar Shadowlord or Crinti Shadow Marauder prestige classes, you can gain the ability to full attack whenever you teleport. Both also give you the ability to teleport.

This can be mixed with monk, if you'd like to. If so, I suggest taking the Sun School feat, which allows you to make even more attacks when teleporting.

Cobra Strike monk grants you most of Telflammar Shadowlord's entry feats, meaning you can spend your feat slots on stuff that gets you the flight speed you want.

The Outsider Wings feat is perfect for this: it requires you to be a tiefling (which you are) and to have high saving throws (which all monks have). The prerequite feat sucks, but early flight is cool, and without significant level investment or items it's one of the few ways to get flight.

I propose something like the following:

LE Half-drow tiefling Cobra Strike Monk 2/Rogue 3/Jaunter 4/Telflammar Shadowlord

Feats are:

1: Fiendish Bloodline
Flaw: Blind-Fight
Flaw: Outsider Wings
B1: Dodge
B2: Mobility
3: Weapon Finesse
6: Sun School
9: Spring Attack

Skill requirements are minimal: 10 ranks in Hide and Move Silently (class skill for all your classes), and 4 ranks in Knowledge (the planes). The latter can be obtained by having at least average intelligence and investing 8 skill ranks in it when you take your third rogue level.

The build as listed is reasonably versatile. At low levels it won't shine in combat, though its maneuverability is excellent: at-will flight at level 1, teleportation at level 6, Teleport at level 9 and Plane Shift at level 10 mean it gets access to a number of transportation milestones when or even before primary casters get them too.

From here on, you can continue to take levels in Telflammar Shadowlord until you get Shadow Pounce, then take Quicken Spell-Like Ability (Dimension Door) at level 12 to get free action teleportation that is then followed by free attacks. Remember, it's a 2nd-level spell on the Telflammar Shadowlord spell list, and the Jaunter description isn't saying the SLA emulates the wizard version.

One word of warning: your DM may ban flaws. In that case, you could either give up Outsider Wings and take Blind-Sight normally, or you could forego Weapon Finesse and Sun School.

Given that half-elves (and by extension half-drow) have 'any' as their favored class and tieflings have 'rogue' as theirs, you shouldn't run into multiclass XP penalties regardless of which one is being used.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The unarmed variant of Swordsage from Tome of Battle can do most/all of that without multiclassing and with no alignment restrictions/requirements.

Unarmed strike and AC bonus like a Monk. The Mongoose boosts from the Tiger Claw school grant additional attacks, which comes later but ends up being better than Flurry of Blows. Keep in mind you can use two-weapon fighting with unarmed strikes.

Certain maneuvers grant ranged attacks, particularly Desert Wind, which mostly deals fire damage.

Certain Shadow Hand maneuvers allow teleportation, the first one you can get is a standard action, but you can learn one that's a swift action when you're level 13.

I'm not sure if it can allow you to fly, but there are plenty of ways to do that (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items).

Since you're a Tiefling, you could pick up the feat Outsider Wings in Races of Faerun (the book is setting specific but it's official WotC 3.5 material). There's a very mediocre prerequisite feat, but it basically functions like a dragonblooded character taking the feats Dragon Wings and Improved Dragon Wings in Races of the Dragon. If you would rather go the Dragon Wings route, you can make your character a Deepwyrm Half-Drow from the book Dragon Magic instead of a Half-Drow Tiefling.

[Inevitability]

I'm not sure if it can allow you to fly, but there are plenty of ways to do that (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items).

The Rising Phoenix stance gives a fly speed (with a few neat side effects), but requires you to remain within 10 feet of the ground.

[Nuavion]

You say 'teleport and full attack', I say 'Shadowpouncer'. By taking levels in either the Telflammar Shadowlord or Crinti Shadow Marauder prestige classes, you can gain the ability to full attack whenever you teleport. Both also give you the ability to teleport.

This can be mixed with monk, if you'd like to. If so, I suggest taking the Sun School feat, which allows you to make even more attacks when teleporting.

Cobra Strike monk grants you most of Telflammar Shadowlord's entry feats, meaning you can spend your feat slots on stuff that gets you the flight speed you want.

The Outsider Wings feat is perfect for this: it requires you to be a tiefling (which you are) and to have high saving throws (which all monks have). The prerequite feat sucks, but early flight is cool, and without significant level investment or items it's one of the few ways to get flight.

I propose something like the following:

LE Half-drow tiefling Cobra Strike Monk 2/Rogue 3/Jaunter 4/Telflammar Shadowlord

Feats are:

1: Fiendish Bloodline
Flaw: Blind-Fight
Flaw: Outsider Wings
B1: Dodge
B2: Mobility
3: Weapon Finesse
6: Sun School
9: Spring Attack

Skill requirements are minimal: 10 ranks in Hide and Move Silently (class skill for all your classes), and 4 ranks in Knowledge (the planes). The latter can be obtained by having at least average intelligence and investing 8 skill ranks in it when you take your third rogue level.

The build as listed is reasonably versatile. At low levels it won't shine in combat, though its maneuverability is excellent: at-will flight at level 1, teleportation at level 6, Teleport at level 9 and Plane Shift at level 10 mean it gets access to a number of transportation milestones when or even before primary casters get them too.

From here on, you can continue to take levels in Telflammar Shadowlord until you get Shadow Pounce, then take Quicken Spell-Like Ability (Dimension Door) at level 12 to get free action teleportation that is then followed by free attacks. Remember, it's a 2nd-level spell on the Telflammar Shadowlord spell list, and the Jaunter description isn't saying the SLA emulates the wizard version.

One word of warning: your DM may ban flaws. In that case, you could either give up Outsider Wings and take Blind-Sight normally, or you could forego Weapon Finesse and Sun School.

Given that half-elves (and by extension half-drow) have 'any' as their favored class and tieflings have 'rogue' as theirs, you shouldn't run into multiclass XP penalties regardless of which one is being used.
Just texted the build idea to DM. Says I can't be evil because "it would go against every other character in the campaign."

Would be need to be evil for the build to work?


The unarmed variant of Swordsage from Tome of Battle can do most/all of that without multiclassing and with no alignment restrictions/requirements.

Unarmed strike and AC bonus like a Monk. The Mongoose boosts from the Tiger Claw school grant additional attacks, which comes later but ends up being better than Flurry of Blows. Keep in mind you can use two-weapon fighting with unarmed strikes.

Certain maneuvers grant ranged attacks, particularly Desert Wind, which mostly deals fire damage.

Certain Shadow Hand maneuvers allow teleportation, the first one you can get is a standard action, but you can learn one that's a swift action when you're level 13.

I'm not sure if it can allow you to fly, but there are plenty of ways to do that (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items).

Since you're a Tiefling, you could pick up the feat Outsider Wings in Races of Faerun (the book is setting specific but it's official WotC 3.5 material). There's a very mediocre prerequisite feat, but it basically functions like a dragonblooded character taking the feats Dragon Wings and Improved Dragon Wings in Races of the Dragon. If you would rather go the Dragon Wings route, you can make your character a Deepwyrm Half-Drow from the book Dragon Magic instead of a Half-Drow Tiefling.
Might do unarmed swordsage. Though, I'm starting to feel very limited in my choices...

[GrayDeath]

Telflammar Shadowlords must be nongood.

So Lawful neutral should work as well, and I support going with the Unarmed Swordsage/Telflammar Shadowlord Build.
Its more straight forward, maneuvers allow much versatility, and you can be absolutels sure not to accrue Multiclass penalties, as Half Elves can choose any one Class, and you only have one non prestige Class. :)


On a side note: If he is reasonably willing to explain, ask him why exactly being Evil is out of the Question. Especially Lawful Evil Types can play very well with any but Paladin Groups, and inter group attempts to convince others your alignment is superior is often half the fun. ;)

[Nuavion]

One word of warning: your DM may ban flaws. In that case, you could either give up Outsider Wings and take Blind-Sight normally, or you could forego Weapon Finesse and Sun School.
He banned all flaws except those from unearthed arcana. Are the flaws listed in Dragon magazines from eberron? New rule from DM: Nothing from other campaign settings besides Faerun.


Telflammar Shadowlords must be nongood.

So Lawful neutral should work as well, and I support going with the Unarmed Swordsage/Telflammar Shadowlord Build.
Its more straight forward, maneuvers allow much versatility, and you can be absolutels sure not to accrue Multiclass penalties, as Half Elves can choose any one Class, and you only have one non prestige Class. :)


On a side note: If he is reasonably willing to explain, ask him why exactly being Evil is out of the Question. Especially Lawful Evil Types can play very well with any but Paladin Groups, and inter group attempts to convince others your alignment is superior is often half the fun. ;)
He just says that an evil character wouldn't get along with the rest of the group.

I feel like that's crazy to be honest. Nothing says that the party has to be friends. Just that they travel together and help each other. If that's because they like one another, or just need each others talents or services, then being actual friends or not should be irrelevant.

[GrayDeath]

If you think along those lines, then why not ask the DM to explain his reasoning?

No good DM will refrain from explaining his reasons if asked politely.

But since your GM suddenly started banning a lot of stuff, he seems rather inexperienced and fond of ad hoc changes, a combination that does not bode well...

[Troacctid]

You don't seem to have any particular reason to be evil, so I wouldn't bother pressing the point.

[MichielHagen]

I feel like the DM is painted of as a bad DM, while i see nothing wrong.
- Changing alignment because of in-game reasons is fine by me, but because you want a certain build, i would not allow that either
- Picking an evil alignment.....i can't imagine doing that if the campaign is not specifically evil.
- You are posting "Optimize this" threads, and maybe the DM does not like optimized characters. I initially allow anything in my campaign whether it's dragon magazine, or homebrew. But the power-balance of the players is important, so i will beforehand mention that i will not allow anything that will break that rule. Play a character with fun abilities, don't create a character to "win".

[Inevitability]

He banned all flaws except those from unearthed arcana. Are the flaws listed in Dragon magazines from eberron? New rule from DM: Nothing from other campaign settings besides Faerun.

Frankly, it doesn't matter what your feats are from. The Dragon Magazine ones don't appear to be tied to any particular setting, so go ahead and take two of those if they're available.

If not, I recommend something like Shaky and Pathetic (dumping a score you don't need, like wisdom or charisma), though Vulnerable is a pretty okay pick too.

[emeraldstreak]

Apparently your DM has chosen the winded, roundabout way of saying "I'm afraid of optimization."


Anyway, about your character...

On movement: there's a difference between wanting jaunting, and simply wanting to move around swiftly enough to full attack. The latter works with pounce and Travel Devotion, while the former requires particular visuals. So how important is the visual/roleplay characterization side?

On unarmed strike: There are three classes that get the true unarmed strike progression and can be really good melee damage dealers: Monk, Unarmed Swordsage, and Binder. There are a number of ways to go about this, but we'll be looking for the cross-sections with the movement requirements.

On sources: it matters if 3.5's editions of Dragon Magazine count, because there's a lot there that can solve problems, the least example being the decent variant Chaos Monk solving your alignment issues with a level of spirit lion totem Barbarian with pounce. The Eberron ban also doesn't make sense (for one Eberron material is far more sensible than Faerun's), because it locks you out
of Tashalatora. Finally, it's bad form to lock a Player into a race despite him choosing the race along with his class which you've just banned, that's a problem too because there are racial options that will be better suited for the mounting pile of restrictions.

On putting the foot down: The DM is always right, blah blah blah, but here's the thing, DnD is a shared experience for the DM and all the Players, and actually wanting a jaunting, dark-skinned, meleeist in your fantasy gameplay is perfectly fine.

[Troacctid]

Eberron ban 100% makes sense if you're not in that setting. That's very reasonable.

[emeraldstreak]

Eberron ban 100% makes sense if you're not in that setting. That's very reasonable.

Banning Tashalatora makes 0% sense if Psionics are allowed at all.

[Troacctid]

Tashalatora is a specific monastery in Adar, a region where the psionic energy is so strong that it blocks teleportation magic over the whole country. Even in the Eberron setting, where psionics are relatively common, Khorvairians travel across the continent to train there because their unique fighting style isn't taught anywhere else.