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michael199310
2018-01-15, 04:43 PM
There's rather hot discussion about alignments few threads below. People bash/defend this system but noone proposed any alternatives.
I enjoy alignments but they are in fact very simple concept. I'm not going to debate whether it's good or not - there are other threads for that.
But let's say we are ditching the alignments. How would you substitute this system? Or would you at all?

I've been thinking about something like Fame, Infamy and Allegiance. Let's say we saved the village from total destruction. Most would consider this a deed of good and characters would become famous because of that. They would gain Fame.

Infamy on the other hand is something that most people would consider evil or immoral. Killing everyone in the village would give you Infamy.

There's also an Allegiance. Normally, we don't use alignment system, right? Well, not at all. People can still be considered good or evil but it won't affect stuff like classes, spells etc. So a guild full of noble paladins would be considered good. And with enough Fame you could swear allegiance to them. You could have limited number of Allegiances.

I think this is more flexible than 9 alignment system, as this let's you play more complex characters.

There are of course "grey" areas, deeds considered good for one group but not for the other so this needs tweaking but what do you think?

Grod_The_Giant
2018-01-15, 04:51 PM
I mean, the solution to "alignment systems are bad" is just to ditch alignment systems altogether. Play the character as you see fit and don't worry about allegiance to cosmic principles.

(Also, your Fame/Infamy system seems... not overly helpful, I'm sorry to say. Like, it's a bog-standard Good/Evil split. Allegiance is a bit more interesting as it links the player to the world a bit more, but I don't think it needs to be tied to morality at all)

JNAProductions
2018-01-15, 04:52 PM
I mean, the solution to "alignment systems are bad" is just to ditch alignment systems altogether. Play the character as you see fit and don't worry about allegiance to cosmic principles.

Seconded. Not to say your ideas are bad-they're cool. But you don't NEED anything replacing alignment.

Jama7301
2018-01-15, 04:54 PM
I mean, the solution to "alignment systems are bad" is just to ditch alignment systems altogether. Play the character as you see fit and don't worry about allegiance to cosmic principles.

(Also, your Fame/Infamy system seems... not overly helpful, I'm sorry to say. Like, it's a bog-standard Good/Evil split)

Out of curiosity, in games where you do this, do you drop Protection/Detect Good/Evil/Lawful/Chaotic sorts of spells and abilities? Do you replace them?

Grod_The_Giant
2018-01-15, 05:05 PM
Out of curiosity, in games where you do this, do you drop Protection/Detect Good/Evil/Lawful/Chaotic sorts of spells and abilities? Do you replace them?
Dropping them, or limiting their effect to inhuman creatures, is easy enough and does no harm to the game. Assuming you're playing a system which has such things, which basically means "anything other than 3e/Pathfinder."

Max_Killjoy
2018-01-15, 05:05 PM
I mean, the solution to "alignment systems are bad" is just to ditch alignment systems altogether. Play the character as you see fit and don't worry about allegiance to cosmic principles.


That was going to be pretty much my response.

The only time something somewhat like "alignment as both moral gauge and allegiance" might work is if the setting and campaign are specifically, overtly, and directly about an open and physically manifested conflict between cosmic principles (and this is not, despite what some will claim, true of any D&D setting I've ever come across -- it's a whole different ballgame reserved as far as I've seen for certain niche games).




Out of curiosity, in games where you do this, do you drop Protection/Detect Good/Evil/Lawful/Chaotic sorts of spells and abilities? Do you replace them?


In a way, you don't.

In a way, what takes their place might be something specific to the setting, for example Detect Spirits, Protection from Spirits, etc, or breaking down to general categories of spirits, whatever fits and works.

Morty
2018-01-15, 05:18 PM
There's a myriad of systems for determining a character's allegiance, philosophy, goals, motivation and drive. There's also systems which don't codify those mechanically. Either way, there's no real reason to bring morality into it.

Psikerlord
2018-01-15, 05:20 PM
There's rather hot discussion about alignments few threads below. People bash/defend this system but noone proposed any alternatives.
I enjoy alignments but they are in fact very simple concept. I'm not going to debate whether it's good or not - there are other threads for that.
But let's say we are ditching the alignments. How would you substitute this system? Or would you at all?


I wouldnt replace it at all. I'd just remove it (and have done, for years). Then you can have all the shades of grey you like.

tensai_oni
2018-01-15, 06:09 PM
Out of curiosity, in games where you do this, do you drop Protection/Detect Good/Evil/Lawful/Chaotic sorts of spells and abilities? Do you replace them?

Are you familiar with 5e? This sort of ability no longer works on mundane characters of a specific alignment. Instead, it affects creatures of specific type - fey, undead, demons, elementals etc. Once again, all creatures of a specific type, their alignment has nothing to do with it (though of course, basically all mindless undead will be Evil, etc).

Anonymouswizard
2018-01-15, 06:11 PM
I mean, the solution to "alignment systems are bad" is just to ditch alignment systems altogether. Play the character as you see fit and don't worry about allegiance to cosmic principles.

Agreeing here (like many others). The problem with alignment essentially boils down to that 90% of the time it limits you without actually giving you anything. The 10% of the time it is useful essentially boils down to spells that protect you from sources of alignment, that can often become weird.

I personally like how Lamentations of the Flame Princess handles it. Alignment is who is pulling you strings, and therefore which cosmic team you're on. But a Lawful Fighter isn't a creature of Law and a Chaotic Fighter isn't a creature of Chaos, and so they aren't affected by Protection from Good/Evil spells. Spellcasters are, because their power comes directly from supernatural sources.

But otherwise? Alignment is useful only as a note for who is affected by what spells. All humans(/PC races) are Neutral (or optionally the alignment of whoever gives them power), all demons are Evil, all angels are Good, all fey are Chaotic, and so on. But as soon as it starts describing personality traits you have to deal with the fact that people are inconsistent.

Of you want a similar system, 5e's Ideals and Flaws are much better. They're more flexible, in that your character could follow any ideal and have any shortcoming, and with the specific setup 5e uses you're encouraged to use them rather than discouraged from following them.

Honest Tiefling
2018-01-15, 06:39 PM
I think in order to replace the alignment systems, you need to define what the alignment system does for the game. Primarily, I use a basic description to define the game to prevent a lawful good old-school paladin showing up to play at the same game as a baby-eating necromancer. In this case, something to define archetypes and tone is more appropriate.

For other games, these are real cosmic principles, but for those games, I suggest the table and the game define what good/evil and chaos/law are for them, which will probably nip a lot of problems in the bud. And if they can't agree, maybe that's not the right campaign to play.

Slipperychicken
2018-01-16, 01:01 AM
The substitute is each player using their own moral compass like they do naturally IRL. Games are improved by excluding alignments, karma meters, or anything of the sort. Roleplayers are more than capable of making moral judgements without assistance from the game manual. You benefit from all the nuance your imagination permits, and full freedom to disagree with your fellow gamer, but none of the hassle or restrictions which typify alignment systems.

To make it easier mechanically, remove or ignore game effects which are dependent on alignment. If something only works for the pure of heart (or a true free spirit or whatever), then the GM can make a subjective call on which characters qualify. A GM can even talk with his players about whether they think their characters would meet such requirements based on subjective judgements.

Since this looks like a dnd 5e question, I'll say that alignment largely lacks game effects, so its removal requires only a handful of tweaks, mostly to items which are unlikely to be used.

Black Jester
2018-01-16, 07:00 AM
You can easily replace Alignment with nothing and lose nothing.

Alternatively, take a look at Cubicle 7's Adventuresin Middle Earth for an alternative way to handle evil as a corruptive force that could turn your character into a more and more selfish, miserable and even desperate creature, putting a strong emphasis on moral support and avoiding corruption if possible.

Admittedly, I haven't played the 5e version of that game yet (and I am quite ambivalent about the original The One Ring) but that seems to be a better way to handle the struggle between good and evil: By making it personal and internalizing it, it becomes a lot more meaningful.

1of3
2018-01-16, 07:29 AM
It already exists. In the 4e PHB. Look at the gods. Each has three commandments. Clear, concise, while none is necessarily good or evil.

Jormengand
2018-01-16, 08:09 AM
If you want, you can give your character a value list rather than an alignment - what does your character value? For example, rather than chaotic good, you can have a character who values freedom and defending the innocent, which gives an example of what you want your character's alignment to mean about their personality. Similarly, if your character is lawful evil, they might have "Respect the pirate's code" and "Finders keepers" among their values. And it can be genuinely helpful to write out what your character values before the game, but writing "Chaotic good" on your character sheet isn't so helpful when there's such argument about what that means.

EDIT: One of the very few ideas I liked about FATAL was that IIRC it tried to establish one axis for moral values and another for your actual adherence to your own values (which was written off as a copy of the D&D alignment system by those justifiably unwilling to spend longer than they had to reading FATAL). For example, someone who tries to do good but can't resist temptation is, IIRC, Moral Unethical, but someone who doesn't care about doing good in general but helps out their friends when they need it and rarely gives into temptation is Immoral Ethical, which isn't the same as chaotic god and lawful evil even if it seems similar. Having a measure of moral fortitude might be a genuinely interesting mechanic.

Cosi
2018-01-16, 09:56 AM
The problem an alignment system wants to solve is simplifying the characterization of NPCs, and in particular factions of NPCs by providing a baseline you can use to determine actions. At no point is it necessary for PCs to touch that system, but it has the potential to be useful for DMs.

The flaw in D&D's alignment system is that it uses words that are loaded, but still ambiguous. Everyone has some idea of what "Good" is, which means that people will be upset of your idea of "Good" contradicts theirs. But people do not agree about what it means to be "Good", so conflict is inevitable.

Describing the problem in these terms should suggest two directions one could move to solve it. You could use words that weren't loaded, or words that weren't ambiguous.

MtG is an example of the first. The alignments in magic are colors, with which people do not have preexisting moral associations. No one (aside from those who happen to have read about MtG's moral system) has an opinion about what actions are "Blue" and what actions are "Red". But MtG defines those things, so you can use them to describe NPCs and therefore create models of behavior.

The second would involve using real-world philosophical systems as the backing for NPC's ideologies. This has the disadvantage of having baggage (meaning that if you define your angels as Utilitarians, they have to behave that way), but the baggage is largely shared. People may disagree about whether being a deontologist is good or bad, but they don't disagree about what deontology means.

Nifft
2018-01-16, 03:44 PM
Here's one way which is really easy to start and can be expanded into a highly complex and campaign-specific system, or which you can leave simple:


First: make Alignment supernatural

Alignment: a measure of supernatural affiliation. By default all humanoids are Neutral on this scale. Only magic can change that default.

The Alignment aura of a Paladin or Cleric is an example of magic changing the default. Since Divine spellcasters are prevented from taking magical actions that would go against their Alignment aura, they tend to become more extreme in their Alignment over time.

Mortal arcane spellcasters can remain Neutral by either abstaining from aligned spells, or by trying to cast all types of aligned spells in balance.

Outsiders are often aligned, per their subtype(s). Undead are always aligned (as Evil).

Detect Evil and Smite Evil and such will work only on aligned creatures.


It removes some common "Gotcha!" flaws from the game.

A wicked and unscrupulous but mundane moral -- for example, a Rogue who assassinates people for money, or a greedy merchant who cheats, lies, and steals -- would not detect as Evil, because they are non-magical and they don't pay allegiance to any supernatural Evil.

But the jovial innkeeper who on the full moon sacrifices a guest to Dispater? Yeah that guy will totally detect as Evil, and when you Smite him you'll be Smiting an unequivocally valid target.



So, what should detect as Evil?
- Evil Outsiders
- Undead
- Spellcasters who cast [Evil] spells, or who worship something Evil
- People who take [Vile] feats

Depending on your campaign's antagonist list & monster palette, that's either plenty, or it's not enough.

What are the other candidates for Evil-ness?

- Evil Dragons - justification is that they're spellcasters, so they start to cast a lot of [Good] or [Evil] spells at a certain point. Perhaps wyrmlings are all Neutral.

- Evil Magical Beasts - justification might be that they're the creation of an evil Outsider, so they're tainted with evil essence somehow, or that they draw on Evil supernatural power to fuel their magical abilities.

- Evil Aberrations - justification might be that unnatural is a type of evil, or that Aberrations come from an evil plane like the Far Realms or Xoriat. Alternately, it might be that Aberrations are just strange life forms, and they're not Evil until they start using evil magic.

- Evil Elementals - sure, why not? Efreeti might be a major antagonist, running an interplanar slave operation.

- All Fey - maybe you're running a Man-Against-Nature type of game.

Pick some (or none) of those, or invent a separate category.



Second: make Conduct sufficiently specific

Allegiance: this is whom you venerate, worship, honor, or obey. Perhaps it's a person, perhaps it's a system of values, perhaps it's a nation, perhaps it's a city, perhaps it's a god, perhaps it's an abstract concept.

If your Allegiance is to an entity that grants you power, that entity is your Patron.

Conduct: this is the sum of your actions, time-weighted such that recent actions count more. Your Conduct usually doesn't affect your Alignment, unless it's a magical action, but your Patron may care about your Conduct -- and if your Patron dislikes your Conduct enough, you'll lose that Patron's granted powers by performing prohibited actions. Aligned magical actions can violate Conduct, but non-magical (and non-aligned) actions can also violate Conduct. In either case, you'll need an Atonement.

Conduct requirements for a Patron can be arbitrary or highly coherent, and they might involve Alignment actions or they might not. This is where your campaign setting can add a lot of flavor -- hopefully without adding too much complexity.

I recommend poaching some ideas for Conduct requirements from the 4e PHB, as mentioned by 1of3.

I also recommend starting small at low-level, and getting a feel for how each Patron's required Conduct impacts the game, then tightening up the Conduct at higher levels. What is permitted for an initiate might not be tolerated from a High Priestess.


Bringing it All Together

- Alignment is objective in most D&D universes, and that's necessary since it can be detected as an objective quality by specific spells and effects.

- The fact that Alignment is objective is usually problematic because usually Alignment is tied to mundane behavior. By severing that relation, objective Alignment becomes less problematic. You can have nuanced mundane anti-heroes and "realistic" gritty characters who aren't objectively as Smite-worthy as a Demon or Vampire.

- Gods who demand specific obedience from worshipers can exist without that obedience being reduced to Alignment-related actions.

- You don't need to do all the hard, complex work up front. You can start by severing Alignment, and then add Patron-specific requirements as those Patrons are used in your game.

- Start small and general; build up specifics & tighten Conduct requirements as the PCs gain power.

Aneurin
2018-01-16, 05:08 PM
There's rather hot discussion about alignments few threads below. People bash/defend this system but noone proposed any alternatives.

I beg your pardon?


...That sounds remarkably petty if that's how alignment got started. Also, I don't actually understand how giving players an actual reason to kill each other ("You're playing an Evil character - my Good character must kill you and take your stuff!") stops the backstabbing happening.

I'd have thought requiring characters to be described in terms of personality would be a more useful tool (and more descriptive). So, Ordered/Neutral/Chaotic and Altruistic/Neutral/Selfish. You could even keep the various Detect (and even Protection, probably) spells by claiming that personality types attract or generate certain energy types (Positive energy for, say, Altruistic individuals).

...Okay, I pretty much immediately went on to say that I'd rather just ditch alignment altogether, and since I don't play D&D, I basically have done so with enthusiasm.

But if you want to substitute something for alignment... the first thing you need to do is work out what it is about alignment that you want. And what it is that you don't want so you can figure out a replacement that actually does what you want. We can throw alternatives at you until the cows come home, but unless you can give us things you want from an alignment system and things you don't want from one we'll just be throwing words at the wall and seeing what sticks, you know?

Aliquid
2018-01-16, 05:27 PM
But if you want to substitute something for alignment... the first thing you need to do is work out what it is about alignment that you want. And what it is that you don't want so you can figure out a replacement that actually does what you want. We can throw alternatives at you until the cows come home, but unless you can give us things you want from an alignment system and things you don't want from one we'll just be throwing words at the wall and seeing what sticks, you know?What, you mean think about this rationally, assess the problem and work out the solution from there? That's crazy talk.

Gideon Falcon
2018-01-17, 01:29 PM
I know I have an unpopular opinion, in that I actually like the 9-alignment system, but part of the reason it's so unpopular is because it keeps getting misinterpreted- what I imagine my fellow proponents of the system want from it is a way to quickly list our values on paper, like people keep talking about. People talk about it as being restrictive, whereas I feel alignment should be a guide to making your character consistent, not an external force preventing you from roleplaying- spells that affect alignment speak to a basic fantasy concept that we're looking for as well; having some form of magic that's specifically on our side. It's just like the entire existence of the Paladin class, we like the idea of a person whose ideals give them power, especially good ones. I'm more ambivalent about effects tied to Law v Chaos alignments, but even those are tied to value systems that people get very passionate about.
As long as you can find an interpretation of the system that's consistent, which a number of people have done, it really shouldn't be a burden on your game.

Tinkerer
2018-01-17, 05:11 PM
EDIT: One of the very few ideas I liked about FATAL was that IIRC it tried to establish one axis for moral values and another for your actual adherence to your own values (which was written off as a copy of the D&D alignment system by those justifiably unwilling to spend longer than they had to reading FATAL). For example, someone who tries to do good but can't resist temptation is, IIRC, Moral Unethical, but someone who doesn't care about doing good in general but helps out their friends when they need it and rarely gives into temptation is Immoral Ethical, which isn't the same as chaotic god and lawful evil even if it seems similar. Having a measure of moral fortitude might be a genuinely interesting mechanic.

Yeah, FATAL is utterly reprehensible but there was also a small, small handful of decent ideas. I made some progress starting up a series some (wow, 10) years ago called The **** Mines where I take a look at some of the absolute worst things ever created and try to find something... anything redeeming about them. FATAL was the item which inspired that. If I recall correctly that was one of like 3 redeeming things I found in the book.

Pleh
2018-01-17, 07:01 PM
If you get into Fame/Infamy and Allegiance, maybe take a look at Fallout series, where you have a Reputation score with each Faction.

But in general, I've never had a problem with the alignment system. I can usually persuaded a DM to relax alignment restrictions on PrCs.

Jormengand
2018-01-18, 03:21 AM
Yeah, FATAL is utterly reprehensible but there was also a small, small handful of decent ideas. I made some progress starting up a series some (wow, 10) years ago called The **** Mines where I take a look at some of the absolute worst things ever created and try to find something... anything redeeming about them. FATAL was the item which inspired that. If I recall correctly that was one of like 3 redeeming things I found in the book.

Intriguingly, also, RaHoWa, which is the other poster-kid for horrible racist RPGs, is fairly easy to fix into a rules-light high-lethality game about gang warfare (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?491544-Redemptionist-(Original-System-PEACH)). It basically had no problems other than "Melee combat doesn't quite work", "The way that rolling and difficulty work is weird" and, uh, well, "You play as the Klan".

I'm jokingly working on a game called LETHAL ("Less Evil Tabletop Heroism and Love") which is like a FATAL fix, but since FATAL is literally 25 or so times as long as RaHoWa, it's going to be more difficult. Still, I've found more things than I thought I would that I liked about it, from the fairly detailed (if sometimes horrible) characterisations of the different races and parts of the setting, to the before-their-time note in the section on gender saying, paraphrased, "We're aware that sex and gender are not the same and that trans people exist. We're using gender to refer to sex because we talk about the other kind of sex, ie sexual intercourse, a lot and it would get confusing, sorry."

I literally stopped reading and showed it to my boyfriend because I was just that impressed that that passage of text existed. This was written back in 2004, before trans people had begun to show up on most people's radar yet (giving them the confusing idea that we suddenly started existing in the 21st century). That level of actual awareness at that point in time was remarkable. To have the temerity to put it in your magnum opus was incredible. To the most horrible man in the world, my hat is off.

Ashtagon
2018-01-18, 03:21 AM
I remove alignment entirely as a game mechanic. It might remain in use as an optional way to describe character motivation, but has no mechanical effect.

I do however have divine allegiance as a game mechanic. Most characters and creatures will not have one. The more religious (especially clerics) may have an allegiance either to a formal pantheon or to a specific deity. The various alignment-related spells then become detect friend/foe (etc) rather than detect good/evil. Friend /foe is then defined relative to each specific deity's ideas. Which means that for an elf cleric, a dwarf may well detect as foe, not because he is hostile, but because he is a dwarf. For certain gods of healing, venomous snakes may detect as foes because they are venomous, even though they are basically of animal intelligence and so outside normal moral motivations. It's more nuanced, and requires that characters actually understand their deity to benefit from their spells fully.

John Campbell
2018-01-18, 06:41 AM
My group has been playing 3.5/Pathfinder with drastically reduced, if not quite entirely eliminated, alignment for years.

The nine alignments are still a thing, but they don't apply to ordinary characters or creatures. They're only relevant to beings that are strongly aligned as part of their fundamental nature... basically, outsiders with alignment descriptors and deities that have an alignment domain, and high-level clerics of such deities (who will radiate their deity's alignment, regardless of their personal conduct).

Detect [alignment] and similar spells remain, but their utility is significantly reduced, because they'll only detect strongly-aligned things as described above, not ordinary creatures' personal conduct. (I consider this a feature. And it's actually a throwback to how they worked in AD&D.) I haven't really decided what to do with spells like holy word, but it hasn't come up.

The protection from... and magic circle against... spells just get genericized to protection and magic circle. Their alignment-dependent effects are minor and quickly get overlapped by non-alignment-dependent effects from other sources - usually permanent magic items - anyway.

Paladins' Smite Evil similarly gets genericized to just Smite, and it's up to the paladin to use it in a manner that meets their deity's approval. Paladins don't have to be Lawful Good, but they have to have a deity, and they have to act as a paragon of whatever their deity considers to be virtue. I'll generally swap out the detect evil SLA for something thematically appropriate. For example, I had an order of paladins of the Sun who got light as an at-will SLA instead.

Clerics likewise have to act in accordance with their deity's precepts, or risk losing their divinely-granted powers. This may not have anything to do with traditional alignment categories... a deity of knowledge, for example, might not care if you're a benevolent healer or a serial orphan murderer, but might revoke your powers for burning books.


And we play a lot of other games that aren't D&D, and none of them have anything even remotely resembling an alignment system. Alignment isn't anything like a vital part of an RPG. In fact, I'd say that alignment is actually hostile to role-playing.

Fri
2018-01-19, 03:19 AM
Just showing you example of what exists outside of DnD, in Legend of the Wulin, which is a wuxia game, there are no good/law allignment, but there are virtues, which are separated into chivalrous and selfish. Example of chivalrous virtues are things like benevolence, honor, loyalty, and selfish virtues are things like ferocity, individualism, obsession, etc.

They're not good or evil, a villain or a hero can be chivalrous. For example, you can have a honorable villain or loyal villain as much as a honorable or loyal hero, as much as you can have an individualist and obsessed hero as much as an individualist and obsessed villain. And how it works in the game is, you give scores on how much your character scores on each virtues on character creation, and in session, whenever someone in the table agree that you showcase a behaviour related to a virtue (any virtue, not necessarily one that your character have high scores), they throw you a token, which you can use for extra experience point or resource and such. But you get more token the higher your virtue scores are.This is supposed to make you want to showcase a virtue that your character scores high as much as possible, so you get the most out of it.

For example, when you have a benevolent character with 4 benevolence score, when given choice, you'd rather let the villain go and make them promise not to rob anymore, because that showcase benevolence (why else would you make a benevolent character if you don't want him to showcase benevolence?), and you get 4 tokens out of it. If you decide to execute them, not only that it's out of character for your score, you only get 1 token out of it since your ruthlessness score is only one. Why would you make a benevolent character if you just want to execute people anyway? BUT you still can do it. Maybe they killed your favourite dog or whatever, and it's an out of character act in universe, people are surprised on that in game. You just get one token out of it though.

Mordaedil
2018-01-19, 05:23 AM
This is what I feel like Unearthed Arcana was printed for.

Anonymouswizard
2018-01-19, 06:14 AM
Yeah, LotW is an amazing game, especially because characters are much less identical than they appear (sure, everybody will be Rank 4 when the game begins and so have a Lake of 7, but they'll have different skill totals, be different Archetypes, and have developed their Kung Fu and Secret Arts differently). The Virtues are also really good, although I'll note that while in theory it all evens out in practice you might find some Virtues are more frequently coming up and rewarding those who invested in them, depending on how good at RP your players are.

It actually compares really well to modern D&D, and is a much better game than 5e despite having less rules.

It really cares about two things, combat and the use of Secret Arts, both of which have the end result of creating or manipulating Chi Conditions. Sure, there's a skill system, but it's really vestigial beyond the bits required for the Secret Arts, as you're supposed to get back to the kung fu action. Everybody is balanced, because everybody has Kung Fu and everybody has access to at least one Secret Art, and then it's up to the player if they want to focus or diversify.

But due to those systems the character focused on influencing emotions can still do stuff in combat, either participating in Kung Fu or talking his opponents out of the fight, while outside of combat the warrior can put themselves and others through training regimes to encourage certain traits. Warriors get the short end of the stick again, because their Secret Art is the hardest to actively use, but as it has so little to spend Destiny on they're encouraged to pick up another, if they don't want to just throw all their Destiny into more Kung Fu.

Oh, and Loresheets are wonderful. A way to spend XP on story developments and tie in mechanical advantages with organisations and philosophies that doesn't make me want to scream, even though spending XP on story will make you weaker compared to spending it on Kung Fu and Secret Arts, there's a lot of story options which unlock mechanical effects as well and the suggestion of making more at player requests. 'Hey, I want an estranged master with a different philosophy to me, can I take it as a 3 Destiny Loresheet?'

In fact, I love the philosophy loresheets, both the five Chinese philosophies and the deviant ones, despite them being a bit like alignment, because taking them is optional and they explicitly lay out codes.

If I ever get to run it I'll probably have Virtues grant Joss and no Destiny, because I don't want people who just aren't as good at roleplaying to wind up with strictly worse characters.

The short answer is that people who tend to play D&D will either love or hate alignment, those who tend not to in my experience either consider it unnecessary or just don't care.

Personally I prefer systems such as 'list three personality traits, once per session per trait you get a Reroll Point when it comes up' or something similar, or a Fate style system where everybody is defined by descriptive phrases. No broad categories, just three simple traits to influence roleplaying. It also stops the 'but no evil characters' argument, I've played evil characters who got along well in parties of good guys because the system didn't try to slot us into categories and that's just how the RP fell.

2D8HP
2018-02-05, 07:10 PM
I actually think that a lot of suggestions made in this thread are AWESOME!, but I'm feeling silly, so:
It's quite clear to me that the "9 point Alignment system" needs to be replaced with something more binary

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRIXKUEzF0_NFydIBQvIC9PC9swVaZ_x aLJwsav_gM_k9zU7A

For example the stunning lack of Goblin hawtness invokes the well known philosophical principle of "Unde coboli qui deformem pro malo", and hot or not has a long and storied history of as the traditional way of how to tell if Evil, as I explained in the Is it evil to ambush some orcs? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?540446-Is-it-evil-to-ambush-some-orcs) thread:


Orcs?

Of course it isn't evil!

Especially if they're banging on those headache inducing wardrums!

You'd be spreading civilization!

Unless.....if some of the Orcs are totally hot.

If they're some hot Orcs then what's evil is not going "native", joining the Orc tribe and learning their ways which are more in tune with nature and emotions and stuff, including extending bathing under waterfalls.

Then you fight the non-Orcs who are clearly the evil ones.

-Your welcome


But it has been suggested that this is not an "objective" way to determine morality:


No, but Hottyness is. For example, I think Malack was hot as hell (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?295026-Sexiest-Lizardfolk-quot-Alive-quot), but that doesn't mean he's hot for everyone else. Being hot is a subjective criterion, it can't be used as an objective way to determine a creature's morality and alignment.


To which I say NAY!!!

As the hawt (smokin' or otherwise) clearly never commit such deeply vile acts as sarcasm and choosing milk rather than dark chocolate.

There's NO FLAWS WITH THIS SYSTEM!!!

Nope, ABSOLUTELY FLAWLESS OBJECTIVE REASONING WITH NO PROBLEMS!!!


......Well some problems:

Mrs. 2D8HP: Did you feed the Driders yet?

2D8HP: But they always try to eat me!

Mrs. 2D8HP: Don't make me TELL YOU TWICE!

2D8HP: :smallsigh: Yes dear.

Knaight
2018-02-05, 09:02 PM
There's rather hot discussion about alignments few threads below. People bash/defend this system but noone proposed any alternatives.

Alternatives are abundant - game after game after game has been made with them, including alternative present in D&D 5e. On top of that just removing the system entirely and not replacing it leaves an entirely functional system.

Grek
2018-02-06, 07:53 AM
Alignment works best if you treat it as a sanctity system, like in ritual magic or the Golden Bough. Magic lets you dedicate an object/person/thing to a supernatural force (Good, Evil, Fire, Nature, Destruction, Death, anything you'd make a cleric domain out of), detect if something's been sanctified and include/exclude things sacred to particular forces from specific effects.

johnbragg
2018-02-06, 08:41 AM
Out of curiosity, in games where you do this, do you drop Protection/Detect Good/Evil/Lawful/Chaotic sorts of spells and abilities? Do you replace them?

"Protection From" just give the AC/save bonus to the character.

"Detect" still works on the things it's supposed to work on--beings of pure Good/Evil/Law/Chaos. I'm not sure how canon lore from the 2E DMG is, but I remember a bit about Detect Evil not pinging on a run-of-the-mill evil fighter sitting by the fire in the tavern sipping on his ale and trying to warm up, but it would ping on an evil cleric whose soul or aura or whatever is stained by his lifetime of cruelty and foul deeds.

So the orc isn't supposed to ping as Evil anyway, but the Half-Fiendish Orc or the Tiefling might. The Fiend definitely will.

johnbragg
2018-02-06, 09:45 AM
One thing I do have for an alignment substitute:

Hero, Mercenary with a Heart of Gold, Pure Mercenary. Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, Lando Calrissian.

Luke wants to be a big Hero. Han wants to get paid--but in the end comes to the rescue. Lando sells his friend HAn to the Empire. (Yes he then helps Leia escape.)

That's a character building tool you can give to starting roleplayers and have them do something with it.

(Yes, Benicio Del Toro from Last JEdi is an even better example. But the original trilogy has held up, Last Jedi might or might not. I think it will, but...)

hamishspence
2018-02-06, 10:05 AM
"Protection From" just give the AC/save bonus to the character.

"Detect" still works on the things it's supposed to work on--beings of pure Good/Evil/Law/Chaos. I'm not sure how canon lore from the 2E DMG is, but I remember a bit about Detect Evil not pinging on a run-of-the-mill evil fighter sitting by the fire in the tavern sipping on his ale and trying to warm up, but it would ping on an evil cleric whose soul or aura or whatever is stained by his lifetime of cruelty and foul deeds.

The example given was a wizard, but yes. It also said that the same wizard, when actually plotting to do something evil, starts pinging as evil.

inexorabletruth
2018-02-07, 05:00 PM
This is neither here nor there, but I actually like the alignment system.

So, in the interest of protecting it, how about it be changed to a template, a trait or domain?

As a Domain, it could give you access to Protect/Detect spells which have alignment requirements.

As a Trait it can grant passive bonuses/penalties to alignment dependent scenarios.

As a Template, is can swap certain aspects of a race or class with both benefits and pitfalls of the Domain and the Trait.

Braininthejar2
2018-02-07, 05:21 PM
I'm a fan of Exalted 3rd edition intimacies system.

Instead of an alignment, you have a list of people and principles that are important to you, and how strongly they affect you.

for example:

Home city (loyalty) - major
Be nice to ladies - minor
respect the laws - major
love pancakes (gluttony) defining

gives a much more precise description than "lawful good"

Also, it provides mechanics for social combat, as influencing an NPC to do something requires applying to one of his intimacies, of strength depending on how big a thing you ask for.

johnbragg
2018-02-07, 05:52 PM
This is neither here nor there, but I actually like the alignment system.

So, in the interest of protecting it, how about it be changed to a template, a trait or domain?

As a Domain, it could give you access to Protect/Detect spells which have alignment requirements.

As a Trait it can grant passive bonuses/penalties to alignment dependent scenarios.

As a Template, is can swap certain aspects of a race or class with both benefits and pitfalls of the Domain and the Trait.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/celestialCreature.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/fiendishCreature.htm

Refluff for Axial or Chaotic creatures.

Maybe swap out DR and energy resistances for detect good/evil and protection from evil SLAs.

2D8HP
2018-02-07, 06:48 PM
One of my fave RPG's is Pendragon, and in order to play out Sir Gawaine and the Green Knight types of temptation scenerios, instead of an Alignment it has "Traits" and "Passions" which are supposed to represent how a PK (Player Knight) is likely to act.You may roll (a d20) to see, choose, or if it's a "famous trait" (above 16, which may gain you "Glory", which is the equivalent of D&D's XP) then you have to roll to not act the way the Trait indicates, so it's both more "roll-playing", and more role-playing".

As an example:

Personality Traits

Chaste 13/7 Lustful
Energetic 13/7 Lazy
Forgiving 10/10 Vengeful
Generous*16/4 Selfish
Honest 10/10 Deceitful
Just 10/10 Arbitrary
Merciful 10/10 Cruel
Modest 13/7 Proud
Pious 10/10 Worldly
Prudent 10/10 Reckless
Temperate 13/7 indulgent
Trusting 10/10 Suspicious
Valorous 15/5 Cowardly

* Famous Trait

Passions

Loyalty (Lord): 15
Love (Family): 15
Hospitality: 18
Honour: 15
Concern (my commoners): 8
Hate (Saxons): 13


Instead of calling it "Alignment" Stormbringer has "Allegiance" to "Law", "The Balance", or "Chaos", and since I'm lazy, I'll edit and quote this review of Stormbringer (http://projects.inklesspen.com/fatal-and-friends/traveller/stormbringer-5th-edition--elric/) to explain the system:

Chaos is passion, change and power. Weakened through the last five hundred years, Elric's actions eventually allow it to manifest itself more completely into the world. The Lords of Chaos are the deities atop the Chaotic pantheon, usually eight in number depending on the particular Chaotic cult though more are known. Though generally considered evil by humanity, they're beyond good and evil. In large swathes of the world, the cult to Chaos is forbidden and hidden, though some places like Pan Tang have overt churches to it. It is represented by the number eight...

...In the rare occasions where they manifest in Melniboné, they take forms of impossible beauty, while in the rest of the world they take on horrible shapes that do little for their PR. The Gods of Chaos are:

Slortar he Old: the oldest god, he is a deity of hedonism and decadence. In Pan Tang, priests ruin their own faces to make Slortar even more beautiful in comparison.

Mabelode the Faceless: sometimes with his face covered in shadows or simply not having one, he is a god of warriors and soldiers. His cult is bloodthirsty but not as much as that of Hionhurn.

Chardros the Reaper: straight up the Grim Reaper, he rules over everything related to the grave and fears of death.

Hionhurn the Executioner: a bloodthirsty giant worshipped by killers and gang leaders, even in Melniboné he's not exactly a pretty sight.

Xiombarg the Queen of Swords: though asexual, she usually takes on female forms and has many worshipper women. She is another war deity but praises cunning over destructive violence. She's also worshipped by those who seek love, or retribution towards former lovers.

Pyaray the Tentacled Whisperer of Impossible Secrets: He also has the so-called Fleet of Chaos, and when it shows up at the end of the saga it is pretty much "yup, the world IS ending." Straasha is his foremost rival.

Balaan the Grim: BDSM the God, basically. Loves pain in every form. In Melniboné he wears the face of a beautiful mortal plasted over his face like a mask.

Arioch Lord of the Seven Darks, Knight of the Swords, etc.: one of the most powerful dukes of Hell, patron of Melniboné and Elric himself. A cruel jerk, he also keeps the runeblades Stormbringer and Mournblade.

Eequor the Blue Lady: she lives in a domain where there's only shades of blue. She's a goddess of knowledge and loneliness, and enjoys cold weather. Even in Pan Tang, where women are not allowed to practice sorcery, her cult flourishes.

Narjhan Lord of Beggars: usually manifested in the form of a towering armor with a deep voice, he once lead an army of beggars to destroy Tanelorn in person, and his cult thrives on the fear and hatred of ugliness and deformations.

Balo the Jester: not quite a Chaos Lord, he moves between the realms of Chaos and Law at will. A real funny guy, though his jokes are kind of deadly to mortals. His followers are absolutely insane.

The Lords of Law stand in opposition to Chaos. They're sometimes known as the White Lords and associated with goodliness and stability by humans, but they're every bit as uncaring and beyond good and evil as their Chaos counterparts. Where Chaos is constant and meaningless change, Law is perfect stagnation. Its symbol is a single arrow pointing upwards. Law has many sacred numbers: 1, because it's the first one and it's single; 3, because it's one of the first prime numbers and represents the triangle, the strongest structure; and 9, which is three times three and thus three times as holy, and conveniently enough the number of deities in the Lawful pantheon. Some Lawful cults to demigods and heroes exist. The translation here notes that of the entire pantheon, only Donblas and Arkyn are Moorcock's creations: the others have been added across the several editions of the game.

Donblas the Justice Maker: Donblas gives victory to those who deserve it by challenge. He represents the relentless machinery of justice. His priests are often lawmakers and judges, and his clerics are paladins, crusaders and zealots.

Arkyn the Thorough: he's a god of philosophers, alchemists, mathematicians and inventors. He controls the tides, planetary orbits and seasons. He's the god of

Goldar Lord of Progress and Wealth: A god of commerce particularly worshiped in the Purple Towns. By accumulating wealth, their followers become more perfect and virtuous.

Mirath of the White Hands: the Lawful deity of death and time, Mirath determines how long each creature must live. She can be both cruel and compassionate. Her followers are present in weddings, births and funerals, and also practice the arts of healing since in the end if Mirath wants a life cut short she will not be denied.

Tovik the Merciless: he represents the savage laws of nature, and is worshiped by warriors and warlords. His wild, stern-gazed priests drive armies to Mirath's belly.

Vallyn the Wise: she's the goddess of knowledge and learning. She demands loyalty and discipline from her followers, and those especially loved by her may receive answers in the form of dreams.

Salik the Potent: a deity of agriculture and breeding, prayed to by men to sire children and make their fields and animals fertile. He taught humanity how to brew beer and harvest grapes, and has few female worshippers.

Theril of the Guiding Hands: a muse for poets, painters, authors and musicians. Unpopular in Vilmir. She gave musical tablature to mankind, and she's quick to abandon lazy artists that fail to heed her calls.

Elgis the Gentle: a deity of peace and civilization, his worshippers bring peace and harmony to the world and drive back the disorder of Chaos by extending civilization among barbarians.....

....From their choices during chargen, each character starts with a tendency towards one of the three cosmic forces. The greater the number of points of one flavor, the greater the loyalty of the character to that force. However, most people don't act in the same manner all the time, and it's perfectly possible to have points not just in one force, but two or even all three. When a character has 20 more points in their highest allegiance than the next higher, they're considered to be allies of that force. Allegiance points are gained bynallegiance checks done after an adventure: the GM asks for a d100 roll, and if the character gets less than their allegiance score they gain 1d8 points (Chaos) or 1d6 points (Balance, Law.) Some actions can gain points directly: for instance, knowing or casting spells is always a Chaotic act. Points can be lost if the GM considers a character is going against their allegiance (same check as gaining allegiance points, only the 1d8 or 1d6 bonus is a reduction) or by outright reducing them without a roll. This is more or less safe unless the characters have scores of one hundred or more, in which case they really should consider going against their cause.

A character that is allied to Chaos can, if they run out of Magic Points, pray to Chaos and gain 1/10 of their current Chaos score in MP. This can be done up to three times per session of game, and only after the third time does the character fall unconscious (normally, a character that hits 0 MP is knocked out) The character must succeed at an allegiance check at the end of the adventure, and they may try calling on a specific Chaos Lord with 1% chances of success. A character that is allied to Balance can, once a session, restore 1/5 of their Balance points in HP. They must pass an allegiance check at the end of the session. Allies of Law can pray to the White Lords to add their full Law score to a skill. This must be done before a roll, and can be done up to three times per session. These rolls don't get an experience check. Like their Chaos counterparts, they have 1% of chances of having their call to a Lawful god heard.

Characters with 100 points or more in one of the three forces get a powerful vision asking them if they want to undergo Apotheosis and become a champion of that force. Scores in the other forces don't matter. The character must prove that they are worthy of such an honor and they must also want it. If they reject it, their scores continue increasing as normal until they die or retire. Law and Chaos attempt to persuade, tempt and charm the character into accepting apotheosis; Balance doesn't force the issue but every few sessions an APP x 2 roll (later APP x 4, APP x 6, etc.) is made for the character to find their true love. The Balance loves love, after all, and there's always the chance of protecting said love in Tanelorn...

...A Champion of Chaos can, if they die, roll under (POW x 1d8) and if they succeed they vanish in a stinking cloud reform at the place of their apotheosis eight days later, losing a single APP point in the process due to the horrible pain involved. If this roll fails, they ascend to some superior plane to become a loyal pet of their patron.**Their MP are doubled, and they must choose a Lord of Chaos as a patron. They get POW x 3 chances of their Lord hearing their call if their need is great, but that doesn't mean their patron will do anything to help them (Elric got ditched by Arioch many, many times) A Champion of Balance becomes worthy of seeking Tanelorn, which involves a long quest that reveals the character's place in the world. If they succeed, they win the cosmic game and escape the fate of the Young Kingdoms. Their HP are now straight CON + SIZ, no averaging. A Champion of Law can go to the World's Edge and shape new lands from the formless Chaos there. 1d100 + 160 square kilometers, full of animals and plants as the Champion wishes, and even a small populace to rule. Three skills get their scores doubled, and like the Champions of Chaos they must choose a patron to call on in times of need, with the same POW x 3 chances. And just like Chaos, the Lawful gods may just proceed to ignore said need.

That using Arcane Magic in Stormbringer nets your PC "Chaos points" is a bit like how in the "D&D retro-clone with houserules" game Lamentations of the Flame Princess all Elves and Magic-Users have an Alignment of "Chaotic", and all Clerics of "Law".

D&D ripped off the Law and Chaos Alignments from Anderson and Moorcock first before other games, but they weakened the brew by mixing in Tolkien and Good and Evil.

Like Pendragon and Stormbringer, the BRP game Classic Fantasy (which is supposed to be closer to old D&D) awards points for behavior, but to Good and Evil instead.

Speaking of which, Gygax actually recommended tracking changes in PC's Alignment on a chart for (A)D&D, and deducting XP as "punishment from the Gods" for straying from one's Alignment.

hamishspence
2018-02-08, 02:34 AM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/celestialCreature.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/fiendishCreature.htm

Refluff for Axial or Chaotic creatures.

Maybe swap out DR and energy resistances for detect good/evil and protection from evil SLAs.
Or just use Planar Handbook's templates for those.