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TheElfLord
2007-08-24, 07:43 PM
Alright,so for my game I want to have a "dungeon" when the players are 12th level or so, where I can introduce animals/vermin giant spiders in general and have them actually approach a decent challange in large numbers.

Any suggestions on making animal encounters more than just a speed bump?

Tiki Snakes
2007-08-24, 07:47 PM
A beastly version of Tuckers Kobolds, perhaps?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tucker%27s_kobolds

Failing that, HD advancement maybe? awakened/Dire/fiendish things? Templates?

you could even fudge things a little and give them animal-versions of player classes, perhaps?

Starbuck_II
2007-08-24, 07:51 PM
Alright,so for my game I want to have a "dungeon" when the players are 12th level or so, where I can introduce animals/vermin giant spiders in general and have them actually approach a decent challange in large numbers.

Any suggestions on making animal encounters more than just a speed bump?

Well, while not WotC, Elite template from Manual of Monsters (World of Warcraft d20) x4 hps (doesn't increase HD) in esxchange for some LA (which doesn't matter for monsters) and some CR.

These keep a boss like spider alive while minions and the boss vermin attack at least.

Orzel
2007-08-24, 08:08 PM
Lots of them. Coming out of everywhere. In waves. Abusing tactic. Just keep saying "Suddenly 4 X appear from your Y" where X is the animal and Y is a direction.

Xefas
2007-08-24, 08:11 PM
(Advancement + Templates - appearance changes) would probably be the best way to go. In the feats department, if you want to go with lots of smaller creatures, then look up Swarmfighting (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Swarmfighting,all).

martyboy74
2007-08-24, 08:20 PM
Lots of them. Coming out of everywhere. In waves. Abusing tactic. Just keep saying "Suddenly 4 X appear from your Y" where X is the animal and Y is a direction.

Can Y be your/the DM's ass?

Orzel
2007-08-24, 08:28 PM
Can Y be your/the DM's ass?

It is facing a direction, isn't it?

Jack_Simth
2007-08-24, 08:40 PM
Alright,so for my game I want to have a "dungeon" when the players are 12th level or so, where I can introduce animals/vermin giant spiders in general and have them actually approach a decent challange in large numbers.

Any suggestions on making animal encounters more than just a speed bump?
1) Use higher CR animals.
Whether you do this by HD advancement (animal HD are worth +1 CR per 3 HD added, although a size boost is +1 CR as well), template addition (it's a Warbeast Dire Tiger family!), or picking different animals, you don't want anything you throw at them to be below about CR 10.
2) Control the terrain.
If you're in an open area, and everyone in the party has long-term flying effects and archery, anything land-bound is toast - don't bother rolling. On the other hand, coming across a melee brute in tight quarters where you can't quickly get away and can't use area-effect spells can be brutal. Most PC's aren't overly prepared for an underwater encounter - force them into one (or two, or three...) and do remember to track little things like how long they can hold their breath.
3) Play to the animal's strengths.
Assuming everyone isn't covered by Freedom of Movement at this point, grapples from a few Dire Tiger are very likely to succeed (especially if you've advanced to it CR 10 by way of 6 extra animal HD - which is one stat boost to strength, two feats, and +4 BAB, for a grapple check of +29; +33, if you throw on Improved Grapple, for some reason as one of the feats).
4) Find an excuse to make them act intelligently.
A Druid somewhere is good for this. They've been trained. Or just instinct - they go after the "weak" first - which, from an animal's perspective, will usually be the Wizard and Rogue (the two you want grappled most).

Thrawn183
2007-08-24, 10:30 PM
I really like using druids in conjunction with animals, but I've yet to think of a way to make it seem like the animals are acting on their own (what with all those round/lvl buffs). I guess you could have a druid just doing traffic control for his horde of animal fodder.

Sometimes having large numbers of animals can be fun, gives your fighter a chance to use cleave and great cleave. If not, then they hound the living daylights out of the casters (because they attack everybody through sheer weight of numbers).

Use them in traps, something where the party gets to an intersection with three doors: the trap is that if any door opens, they all do. Since the party will be arranged in a pattern to burst into the room they just opened, the squishies won't have anyone to protect them from the animals behind the other two doors.

Maybe drop them into a pit with a lion or something.

Animals are fun, but as the previous post said, don't use them in a giant open space where the party can attack their weaknesses.

bosssmiley
2007-08-25, 06:48 AM
Fighter? Great Cleave? Small animals? This is relevant to my interests. Also, pic related! :smallsmile:

http://blogs.salon.com/0001444/images/2004/10/31/weasels%20ripped%20my%20flesh.jpg

I like the Swarmfighting teamwork feat idea, that's just nasty. The other trick is to have the animals ambush and/or hit-and-run on the PCs. Pack tactics work like a dream IRL, why shouldn't they in D&D?

Gorbash
2007-08-25, 07:03 AM
And definetly give them the Awakaned template. Any wizard who knows what's doing will just prepare dozen Rays of Stupidity and so most of the animals (even quite a few of magical beasts) will be rendered useless in one round.

Kurobara
2007-08-25, 08:58 AM
1) Use higher CR animals.
Whether you do this by HD advancement (animal HD are worth +1 CR per 3 HD added, although a size boost is +1 CR as well), template addition (it's a Warbeast Dire Tiger family!), or picking different animals, you don't want anything you throw at them to be below about CR 10.

I second this. Even the level 15 game I'm in right now got a decent challenge when the DM threw really advanced dire badgers at us. Mostly because they hit like trucks.

Toliudar
2007-08-25, 09:43 AM
A few were-versions of the same creature, mingling with a mass of weasels/rats/etc can really mess with expectations, even from a relatively high level group. Throw in some druids with mass buffs, terrain that throws the party onto their heels (mud, fog, dense foliage, waist deep water and bogs are favourites of mine), and irregular attack waves that allow player buffs to expire are all great ways to even the odds a bit.

Umarth
2007-08-25, 10:00 AM
Wildshape the druid into something small and inconspicous.

A sparrow flitting arround would probably go unnoticed and could add a lot of confusion.

Orak
2007-08-25, 10:34 AM
Use a largescale dungeon, more of a cavern system and use large scale monsters. There are lots of nasty vermin in the back of the MM. Use webs a lot. Take a look at some of the types of predatory spiders in real life and adapt them to your game. There are spiders that hunt using a web held between four of its legs while it hangs from the celing. There is the infamous trapdoor spider. Grapple attack on the mage and pull it inwards. Give the trapdoor spider a special attack where it can grapple and move in the same round.

Centipedes can make nasty opponents with high hit points and poison. For a really interesting encounter have the party attacked from either side by a swarm of centipedes and a nest of spiders. Have the spiders and centipedes attack each other when they come into contact.

A giant spiderweb strung over a crevasse as the only way to move forward would make a challenging encounter. How to preserve the web and kill its creator at the same time.

Adapt some of the vermin to make encounters in an underwater part of the dungeon. Nothing makes a web more terrifying than having it trap you underwater. And it also makes it fairly hard to burn.