high damage that is still simple

[LordWolfKnight]

hello all,
i am having troubles coming up with a character who can hit harder than he can get hit which is still pretty high. what i want is high damage and high hp along with high ac. the ac part i have a guide for but the basic character concept is where i am coming into troubles figuring out. i want something simple so that means no TOB classes, so i was thinking fighter. this is a gestalt game and level is 10. i have no idea how to go about this type of character, as i usually just play what sounds good to me but they never match the rest of the party in terms of attack, damage, skills. it seems that i make very realistic type characters for fantasy games. any help is greatly appreciated.

[theboss]

There's a few options for High damage output characters:
Sneak attack- rogue guy, good at giving damage but not take many. Comes with high ac and high skills.
Ubercharger- power attack style + leap attack. High damage output. Can take some too. Comes with low-end ac.
Two weapon fighting fighter- trip build, str and Dex to damage. Comes with very high ac and can be build for high damage output as well.

So what do you choose?

[daremetoidareyo]

draconic claw+ power attack+ weapon expertise+ truestrike?

[LordWolfKnight]

i like fighting with two weapons though i am not big on tripping though i see its benefits.

[ayvango]

How do you get Dex to damage?

[DEMON]

How do you get Dex to damage?

Hit-and-Run Tactics Fighter ACF from DotU is one option.

Shadow Blade (ToB), Crossbow Sniper (PHB2) and Dead Eye (DC) also come to mind.

[theboss]

i like fighting with two weapons though i am not big on tripping though i see its benefits.

You said 10 levels right?
If so, 7 fighter, 1 exotic weapon master 1, champion of corellon 2
7 levels of fighter is because you need the feats.
Wield 2 even thinblade and be an elf, that way you don't need to spend an extra feat.
Exotic weapon master for uncanny blow, which lets treat your weapons as two handed weapon. So you get 1.5 your str modifier to damage for both hands. You need only power attack and This will pump up your damage signfically.
Champion of corellon has feats tax, but you're going to use them all. All expect mounted combat maybe. He gets you Dex to damage and a bonus feat.
Feats- 4 levels+ 4 fighter + 1 champion
1. Combat expertise, two weapon fighting
2.improved trip
3.WF(elven thinblade)
4.knock down
6.dodge, mounted combat
9.improved two weapon fighting, karmic strike

This is what I could think of

How do you get Dex to damage?

Champion of corellon (races of the wild)

[noob]

A simple way to get relatively high damage is to use sneak attack and full round attacks with flasks.(and some way to trigger sneak attack reliably such as greater invisibility or some flanking people)
You can expect to get 40d6 + the flasks damage per volley at level 20.

[Eldariel]

Gestalt? Well, you can't really combine two martial classes sensibly; you should get something passive from the other side. If you do, just take passive stuff on one side while advancing PRCs on the other. At any rate, the easiest two-weapon fighter which does immense damage is Revenant Blade [Player's Guide to Eberron], hitting its strive just on level 10. You get two-handed strength and power attack on both ends of the Double-Scimitar while Two-Weapon Fighting. Take Wood Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#woodElf) for +2 Str/Dex, -2 Con/Int (details depend on your stat generation). You want 20 Strength to start off with and as much Dex/Con as you can manage. If you want to be a big ball of stats I'd go Fighter 4/Barbarian 1 or Ranger 2/Barbarian 2/Fighter 1. Take Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) and Spirit Lion Totem [Complete Champion] for Pounce from Barbarian, and Hit'n'Run Fighter [Drow of the Underdark] for Fighter (if available).

Feats you need:
Two-Weapon Fighting (you can get Improved Two-Weapon Fighting from Gloves of the Balanced Hand [Magic Item Compendium])
Bladebearer of the Valenar (basically Exotic Weapon Proficiency with some bonuses)
Weapon Focus: Valenar Double Scimitar
Power Attack

Then you can get the usual Improved Bull Rush > Shock Trooper [Complete Warrior] and add Leap Attack [Complete Adventurer] for particularly brutal charges. Add Extra Rage so you can rage often enough to use it most of the day and you're good to go. If you go Barbarian 2, pick up Wolf Totem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wolfTotemClassFeatures ) Barbarian to trade Uncanny Dodge for Improved Trip without having to meet the prerequisites. This qualifies you for Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown), which lets you trip with every attack giving you even more bonuses to sink into your Power Attack (which you get multipliers on).


Example progression:
Ranger 2/Barbarian 1/Fighter 2/Revenant Blade 5

Ranger 1: Bladebearer of Valenar (you can trade Wild Empathy for Speak with Animals and Plants [Complete Champion] and Track for Disable Device/Search and Trapfinding [Dungeonscape])
Ranger 2: Two-Weapon Fighting
Barbarian 1: Extra Rage (Whirling Frenzy, Pounce)
Fighter 1: Weapon Focus (Hit'n'Run Fighter)
Fighter 2: Power Attack
Revenant Blade 1: Improved Bull Rush, Great Cleave [Ancestral Guidance]
Revenant Blade 2:
Revenant Blade 3: Improved Critical [Ancestral Guidance]
Revenant Blade 4: Shock Trooper
Revenant Blade 5: Weapon Specialization [Ancestral Guidance]

If you had Flaws or were indeed Gestalting, you could further advance Barbarian, Ranger and Fighter on one side giving you more feats to finish the Knock-Down chain and perhaps even the Elusive Target [Complete Warrior] chain or the Melee Weapon Mastery [Player's Handbook II] chain. And perhaps take Improved/Greater Two-Weapon Fighting the oldfashioned way.


On level 10, that character with Gloves of the Balanced Hand can charge for (assuming 20 Str, all level-ups to Str and +2 Str item, Masterwork Double Scimitar) 10 BAB + 7 Str + 1 Weapon + 1 Weapon Focus = +19 base attack. -2 TWF, +2 -2 Whirling Frenzy for +17/+17/+17 [Whirling Frenzy extra]/+12/+12, each at 1d6+13 Str+2 Weapon Specialization damage and Power Attack granting +2 per lost point of attack. On a charge, you have +19/+19/+19/+14/+14 for 1d6+35 each Power Attacking for full due to Shock Trooper putting the penalties to your AC. You also have Great Cleave so you can probably eviscerate not only the target in front of you but all other targets within reach. You should get Enlarge Personed permanently (it is a spell that can be affected by Permanency) for reach to hit more people at once and to get some more damage. You can also use Potions. Enlarge Person would put you to a total of 30 Str for +15 to damage on each attack.

And then you can add magic weapons/items/buffs/Boots of Speed-or-Haste/etc. Of course, you'll need to use most of your budget on defensive stuff since saving throws and rerolls are kinda big deal but at least your classes grant you very good Fort, Ref and Will-saves (Fort is good save for Fighter, Barbarian & Ranger, Ref for Ranger and Will for Revenant Blade).

Basically just gets in there and hits people in the face with the Scimitar until they fall down. Simple but rather effective. Leveling up, level 11 you could enter Frenzied Berserker for greater Power Attack (and immortality while Frenzying and things of that nature) or something like Dervish to get easy full attacks and further bonuses on top of your attacks. Of course, Dervish and Charge/Rage don't mix so perhaps look elsewhere.

[Metahuman1]

High AC: Don't worry about it. Play a size small race. Buy a Ring of Blinking, a Collar of Perpetual Attendance + suitably sized tower shield, and a Lesser Cloak of Displacement. Maybe +1 Smoking Armor Spikes. You should have plenty of miss chance to rarely get hit, and it's a lot harder to bypass.

High HP: Fighter and make Con a high priority stat. With the above you should be fine. Maybe invest in having a trap put in your armor, and having it made an auto resetting spell trap of CL 1 Cure Light Wounds. Which would let you heal 1d8+1 HP a round, every round, all day, every day. Makes your HP go a LOT further.

Damage: Ok. Go Fighter//Bard. I'm serious, hear me out. Take 2 flaws (Unearthed Arcana.). Maybe Strong heart Halfling (Water Halfling if you can manage it to stack for a +2 to Con.) for your race. Get the above listed items. Get a Feycraft Lance. Take the Weapons Finesse Feat, Power Attack (A 13 Str is all you should really need for this build. More helps a little, but diminishing returns, so definably prioritize Dex, Con and Charisma first, and feel free after that 13 for Str minimum is met to have more in Int and even Wis if you don't feel like an Endurance + Steadfast Determination or Force of Personality or Keen Intellect add on to the build. ), the Mounted Combat featline, and spend a feat on a size medium mount that will scale up with you via either Leadership or Wild Cohort.

Work it out with the DM so your mount comes with there own allotment of gold for gear. Buy them good stuff to help there survivability with that, and to give them more mobility options.

Anywhere the party goes, the mount should be able to go.


Now, focus on Inspire Courage next. Regalia of the Hero form Magic Item Compendium, Inspirational Boost spell form Spell compendium (maybe drop some cash on a couple of Circlets of casting form the MIC as well to make sure you've always got uses of it allotted.) Words of Power, Song of The Heart, Lingering Song and if the DM agrees it means you don't have to bork stealth if you take it to use Bardic Music, Subsonics. Melodic Casting is also good. If you feel like spending points on Knowledge skills, Knowledge Devotion is also good to have.

Your hits will be respectable. Your charges will be terrifyingly powerful in there damage output. And your defenses should be solid. And you've got some respectable tricks with your skill options and spell casting. All with 2 core classes and 0 Multyclassing.

[theboss]

@Eldariel
As someone who plays Revenant blade class with a different build than the one you suggested (because spirit totems are in ban and also freinzed bresker).
He does not have high ac at all... even funnier than that, when my DM asks me for my ac I say "not relevant", because it's gets below 15... so in our levels it's only a miss on a natural 1. I even became a joke in my group, although my damage output is insane and I'm one of the strongest member in the group.
The OP wishes for a melee TWF fighter who has a decent AC. Revenant blade and all uberchatgers for that matter are out of question.

[Eldariel]

@Eldariel
As someone who plays Revenant blade class with a different build than the one you suggested (because spirit totems are in ban and also freinzed bresker).
He does not have high ac at all... even funnier than that, when my DM asks me for my ac I say "not relevant", because it's gets below 15... so in our levels it's only a miss on a natural 1. I even became a joke in my group, although my damage output is insane and I'm one of the strongest member in the group.
The OP wishes for a melee TWF fighter who has a decent AC. Revenant blade and all uberchatgers for that matter are out of question.

You can build a Revenant Blade to have excellent AC. It's just a matter of build choices. Simply don't use Shock Trooper; you'll still do plenty of damage with just two-ended 1½ Strength Scimitars and the Power Attack multipliers. Get a Valorous weapon which combined with Pounce and Power Attack is generally enough to one-shot most things on Charge even without Shock Trooper. Shock Trooper is just the "oneshot enemies way above my paygrade" option but frankly, if you want to be an all-rounder, then be an all-rounder.

In that case I would definitely get Knock-Down to knock your enemies prone for extra to hit to sink into Power Attack and further penalties to their attacks. Get Celestial Armor, pump your Dex (on a good day you can start with 20 and be looking at 22-24 this level already) and you're already looking at 26 AC. Then get an animated shield and we're near 30. Add Ring of Deflection, Amulet of Natural Armor and so on and you're done, particularly if also investing in Tumble and keeping defensive fighting option in mind. Whirling Frenzy adds +2 AC on top of that. Martial character AC is 90% equipment - class-based AC boosts need huge effort to become relevant.


EDIT: By the way, Uncanny Blow states you have to wield the weapon in two hands to get the benefit. Sadly it's just a way for Dwarven Waraxe or Bastard Sword or equivalents to get some extra strength bonus to damage out of being used two-handed.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I mean, something like Fighter 10//Rogue 10 is a decent simpler starting point-- you'll have a sturdy chassis, plenty of skills, and a good source of bonus damage. Take Wild Cohort as a feat and you can even have a buddy to flank with. (Heck, grab Adapatable Flanker and a reach weapon and you can flank while riding your cohort)

[theboss]

You can build a Revenant Blade to have excellent AC. It's just a matter of not using Shock Trooper. Get Celestial Armor, pump your Dex (on a good day you can start with 20 and be looking at 22-24 this level already) and you're already looking at 26 AC. Then get an animated shield and we're near 30. Add Ring of Deflection, Amulet of Natural Armor and so on and you're done, particularly if also investing in Tumble and keeping defensive fighting option in mind. Martial character AC is 90% equipment - class-based AC boosts need huge effort to become relevant.

How do you expect to hit without the use of shock trooper?
10 base+7 str + 1wf+ 1magic -10 =+9
I don't see him hitting something other then standing still tree.
At level 10 you have 49K wealth, you cannot have that much magic items.
Martial classes AC are not 90% equipment, you have many classes which can get con,cha,wis or int to ac. This is what makes the difference between a hit and a miss. Of course the magic items help, but not 90%.

[Eldariel]

How do you expect to hit without the use of shock trooper?
10 base+7 str + 1wf+ 1magic -10 =+9
I don't see him hitting something other then standing still tree.

You don't power attack for full, silly. It's quite worth it at -3 or -5. You don't need to do 1d6+33 damage on 5 attacks on level 10 to kill enemies. Like SRD average AC for a CR 12 monster (average tough encounter for this party) is 21,75. On a Charge while Frenzying (28 Str for +9 Str + 10 BAB + 1 weapon + 2 Charge + 1 WF - 2 TWF - 2 Frenzy attack), you're looking at +19 to hit at +19/+19/+19/+14/+14 for 1d6+16 (1d6 + 9*1.5 Str + 2 Weapon Spec + 1 Weapon) at 15-20/x2 (Improved Crit from class). You can Power Attack for 3 and deal 107,73 average damage on a full attack against an enemy of this level, which is certainly fairly respectable. Alternatively, if you used Knock-Down to trip the enemy, you could actually Power Attack for -6 and hit for average 153,55 damage. If you had Haste from e.g. Boots of Speed you could afford to put even more into Power Attack. That kind of damage seems more than sufficient on this level even without Valorous, which would have you hitting for over 300 on a charge against average AC. And this would be doable without compromising your own defenses at all beyond the -2 from Charge which is fairly minor (indeed, negated by Frenzy's bonus).

EDIT: But just stacking Gestalt bonuses, you could run Ranger on one side (up to level 6 at least, perhaps switching to [Martial] Rogue or something afterwards) and Fighter/Barbarian into Revenant Blade on the other gaining you some more feats and access to e.g. Melee Weapon Mastery and perhaps Knowledge Devotion while stacking all the relevant Knowledges with Ranger's very respectable skill points. This would easily allow for vastly higher attack bonuses and even more gains out of the Power Attack. Just a lot of flat bonuses, hit everything in the face, profit.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

this is a gestalt game and level is 10

Barbarian/rogue? I'm not sure how sneak attacking during a screaming rampage would work, but if the DM allows it it is going to do a ton of damage. Neither class relies on heavy armor too much, so dex (to ac) as your secondary stat would be nice. Get some dex skills and maybe a ranged backup weapon as a means to not be too much of a one trick pony, because there's not much you can do with those things in your main area of expertise anyway. Then use your feats for maximum damage. Power attack, great cleave, some stuff like that. Optimize for a single big ass two handed weapon. Take con as your third stat (but make str or con grow when the opportunity arises, since your dex is probably about optimal for the armor you're wearing already), dump brain power.

The advise most of the others are giving looks way nicer, but that would be my first thought.

Alternatively, go druid/anything else, put everything into wild shaping, be a giant bear all the time and eat everyone.

[theboss]

You don't power attack for full, silly. It's quite worth it at -3 or -5. You don't need to do 1d6+33 damage on 5 attacks on level 10 to kill enemies. Like SRD average AC for a CR 12 monster (average tough encounter for this party9 is 21,75. On a Charge while Frenzying (28 Str for +9 Str + 10 BAB + 1 weapon + 2 Charge + 1 WF - 2 TWF - 2 Frenzy attack), you're looking at +19 to hit at +19/+19/+19/+14/+14 for 1d6+16 (1d6 + 9*1.5 Str + 2 Weapon Spec + 1 Weapon) at 15-20/x2 (Improved Crit from class). You can Power Attack for 3 and deal 107,73 average damage on a full attack against an enemy of this level, which is certainly fairly respectable. Alternatively, if you used Knock-Down to trip the enemy, you could actually Power Attack for -6 and hit for average 153,55 damage. If you had Haste from e.g. Boots of Speed you could afford to put even more into Power Attack. That kind of damage seems more than sufficient on this level even without Valorous, which would have you hitting for over 300 on a charge against average AC. And this would be doable without compromising your own defenses at all beyond the -2 from Charge which is fairly minor (indeed, negated by Frenzy's bonus).

I bet that use of the word "silly" made you feel smarter. How cute you are.

1. How did you get to 5 attacks? It's 4.
2. Pounce doesn't get you full BAB on a charge. It's just allow you to do full attack after a charge, while all the penalties of TWF still apply.
3. Valorous is a cheesy way to 1 shot everything. It is not playable in anyway, and I'm always looking up to mundanes and trying to balance them with spellcasters.

[Eldariel]

I bet that use of the word "silly" made you feel smarter. How cute you are.

I think it's quite silly to assume you would power attack for full if you can't negate the penalties, or that there were any reason to. It was meant to be lighthearted though, please forgive me if you found it offensive.


1. How did you get to 5 attacks? It's 4.

Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ). With Extra Rage, you have 3 uses per day so you can use it in all the bigger encounters. Boots of Speed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bootsofSpeed) would of course give you one more on top of that if you invested in them (for 10 rounds per day which is generally plenty).


2. Pounce doesn't get you full BAB on a charge. It's just allow you to do full attack after a charge, while all the penalties of TWF still apply.

In the calculations. TWF penalties are actually listed there. You get 10 BAB, +9 Str, +1 Weapon Focus, +1 Weapon, +2 Charge. -2 Frenzy extra attack, -2 Two-Weapon Fighting. This comes out at +19.


3. Valorous is a cheesy way to 1 shot everything. It is not playable in anyway, and I'm always looking up to mundanes and trying to balance them with spellcasters.

There are many effects like Valorous in the game. Headlong Rush [Races of Faerun], Battle Jump [Unapproachable East], Spirited Charge [PHB], just plain mounted Charge with a Lance [PHB], Dive attack on a Raptoran/Dragonborn of Bahamut [Races of the Wild, Races of the Dragon - arguably any flying creature should be able to do this], Rhino's Rush spell [Spell Compendium] off the top of my head. Many of them are cheaper than getting a +2 weapon. Cheesy or not, that's just the way the game is built. And honestly, it's only a problem when all the charge multipliers are stacked on top of each other or on multiple attacks (Pounce or the like). They're no bigger offenders than Shock Trooper.

A balanced way of ruling it would be that the multiplier only applies on the first attack you do after charge, where they would still be good but not "oneshot everything" good. However, that's besides the point. I specifically stated that you don't need it - you do plenty of damage with mere Masterwork or mundane weapons. 100-150 damage a turn is good enough to one-two shot most things of that CR anyways aside from the Colossal Monstrous Scorpion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/monstrousScorpion.htm), which you preferably don't engage in melee at all since it's got numbers to beat many CR 20 monsters.

[Aimeryan]

It should be noted that Pounce states:


When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack—including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability.

Bolded for emphasis: the full attack is after the charge, not part of it. So Valorous and the like only apply to the charge, not the full attack.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It should be noted that Pounce states:



Bolded for emphasis: the full attack is after the charge, not part of it. So Valorous and the like only apply to the charge, not the full attack.
Though wouldn't that reading (that you take the Charge action, THEN the Full Attack action) effectively give you an extra attack at your full BAB (since a Charge is "move, then make a single melee attack)?

[Darrin]

Though wouldn't that reading (that you take the Charge action, THEN the Full Attack action) effectively give you an extra attack at your full BAB (since a Charge is "move, then make a single melee attack)?

That's one way to read it. You can also throw in a free bull rush if you like. The rules say you can make a bull rush as part of a charge, but they never say it replaces your melee attack.

[ExLibrisMortis]

How about a paladin charger? Something like paladin 10//bard 10 with Spirited Charge, Song of the Heart, Words of Creation, and a lance. Good base attack, three good saves, six skill points per level, charisma-based spellcasting and Divine Grace, special mount, the works. There are lots of fun things (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=25.0) you can do to get strong mounts, but the core of the build is your always-on triple damage lance attack combined with Inspire Courage +6 (or +8, +10, depending on (magic) item access).

[Aimeryan]

Though wouldn't that reading (that you take the Charge action, THEN the Full Attack action) effectively give you an extra attack at your full BAB (since a Charge is "move, then make a single melee attack)?

Yeah, but it tends to be weaker because you don't stack the charge bonuses into a full attack. Also makes sense that the Barbarian is getting something at level 1 if he takes the lion totem.

[DEMON]

Also makes sense that the Barbarian is getting something at level 1 if he takes the lion totem.

Disregarding Whirling Frenzy, he can already benefit from pounce at 1st level with 2 weapon fighting.

[Aimeryan]

Disregarding Whirling Frenzy, he can already benefit from pounce at 1st level with 2 weapon fighting.

That is true; might be that was the intention and why it has no BAB +6 requirement, however, occam's razor would suggest that the intention was as literally wrote; you get a full attack as well as your charge.

That it also helps to balance uberchargers with the rest of the builds (not balanced in regards to other classes, of course) is a nice bonus.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Yeah, but it tends to be weaker because you don't stack the charge bonuses into a full attack. Also makes sense that the Barbarian is getting something at level 1 if he takes the lion totem.
Eh. Higher floor, lower ceiling.

[noob]

Sorry I did misread some text.(the varied languages makes raw very unstable)

[Matrota]

This is a bit of a funny trick I employed on an artificer character from a while back. You don't need to be an artificer or even a really good crafter to use it, but it helps to lower the cost and make it usable more often.

To qualify for craft alchemy, obtain some form of spellcasting/manifesting, whether it be from wild talent feat or the regional feat magical training, or the +0 LA magic-blooded template. Of course, you could just playing a spellcasting class. Get a +15 in craft alchemy through ranks and items. Buy/craft a collar of perpetual attendance (2000 gp, unseen servant at-will) and a handy haversack (2000 gp). Take a 10 on crafting and make 39 fire stones (50 gp per), which can be found in Dragon Compendium p. 117. Since you're crafting it yourself and it's mundane, it's 1/3 price. 39 stones will cost you 650 go to craft. Put them in a bag, and keep them in your haversack. Keep about 2-3 unseen servants out at a time. Optionally, you can also acquire a familiar or a cohort through class/feats and purchase/make them a rod of invisibility (4500 gp).

When combat begins, instruct one servant to take firestone bags out from the haversack and pass them to another servant. The other servants are to receive the bags and follow your further instructions. Your familiar casts invisibility on the bags, so neither the bag nor its carrier cannot be seen. Instruct the unseen servants to "fly" over the enemy and drop the bag. Fire stones deal 1d6 damage to a square on impact with no reflex save. The servant dropping the bag deals 39d6 damage to the square and all it's inhabitants, no save. All you really need for the combo is unseen servant and the bag itself, but the haversack and invisibility spell, along with unseen servant at-will make it much more convenient. If you use proper cost reducers, this can end up costing you only 390 gp per bag, which is well worth it in my opinion. The only flaw is that fire stones deal fire damage, one of the most commonly resisted damages in the game. If you go this route I recommend asking your DM about creating fire stone variants that deal different energy damage for variety, possibly at a higher DC.

I know it's a wall of text and you asked for simplicity, but it really isn't incredibly complex in the long run. Just craft a nuke and have an unseen servant drop the bomb. Best used in high-wealth campaigns. This shouldn't be your only gimmick, but it certainly is a fun one.

[Metahuman1]

2 other thoughts cross my mind for damage.



1: Ask the DM to throw you a bone, let you run a ranger, and let you 1: Pick all favored enemy's as the same 1 enemy, and 2: make all enemy's, ALL enemy's, fit that descriptor to be subject to giving you those bonus's.

Buy Hanks Energy Bow, max all your physical stats, go to town. a couple of caster level boosts and knowledge devotion + Greater Magic Weapon, add the Collision property to the bow first chance you get (Maybe ask to initially downgrade it to a +1 bow instead of a +2.), and of course splitting property. Perhaps dip Shiba Protector if you have really good Wis.




Or,

2: If you willing to tolerate a VERY small amount of Tome of Battle, dip 2 Levels of swordsage. You should literally only care about a shadow hand stance. Then use 1 feat, and repeat 1 item property. The feat is Shadow Blade Strike (which let's you get Dex to damage.) and the weapon enchantment property is Aptitude weapon.

Apart from those levels, invest in a spell casting class that gets summons on one side of the Gestalt, and put those 2 levels on the other.

Make sure your playing an Elf. Duel Wield Elvin Light Blades and get a couple of levels of Champion of Corellian, a level of Shiba Protector, a 1 Level Dip in Drow Fighter. Max Dex and Wis.

Make the Light Blade Aptitude Weapon's for Unarmed Strikes.

Congrats, your maxing 2 stats, and dealing Dex Mod x3 + Wisdom Mod to every damage roll, with Wis +Dex mod to hit. Now just go for classes that give sneak attack advancement (The Sneak Attack Fighter variant is worth a look, and Assassins' Stance for Swordsage would fit nicely enough for the shadow hand stance requirement.), and summon monsters to be flankers and to absorb some damage off you by drawing fire for you with your caster side and you get Sneak attack damage as well.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You're looking for a level 10 gestalt character that deals damage, but isn't too complicated? I'll assume you can put level adjustment in place of a gestalt class, so I'll recommend Fighter 10// LA +5/ War Hulk 5. This will look a bit complicated at first, but once everything comes together it's surprisingly simple.

Elan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#elans) for the base race, the point of this is the Aberration creature type and the fact that you'll be a psionic character. You can use Repletion every day to never need to eat or drink, and you'll never die of old age. Never spend your last power point on a given day, you need at least one power point to be able to become psionically focused.

Add on a variant Half-Fiend (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a) (Goristro) for the other +4 LA. That gets +8 Str, +8 Con, +5 natural armor, two slam attacks each of which add 1.5x Str to damage, and a size increase (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases) from medium to large for an additional +8 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 natural armor. You'll also get DR 5/Cold Iron, immunity to poison, resist Acid, Cold, Electricity, and Fire 10, SR 10+level, and some minor spell-like abilities and other features.

That's a total of +16 Str not counting War Hulk, -2 Dex, +12 Con, -2 Cha, and +7 natural armor. You'll be large size, and War Hulk in the Miniatures Handbook gives +2 Str per level, so starting out with five levels in it gives you another +10 Str.

Use the Dungeoncrasher alternate class feature for Fighter from Dungeonscape, and take the feat Knock-Back in Races of Stone. Also take the Zhentarim Soldier (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) substitution levels for Fighter, it can be reflavored to a generic bully or an enforcer for any crime organization. Always take the free dead levels (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a) class features.

With that -2 Dex you'll probably want to wear heavy armor, so with that +12 Con you can get the Quick trait (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#quick) and still have a 30 ft. land speed in heavy armor. Also get the Abrasive trait.

You'll be using your natural slam attacks. Elan are Aberrations, which allows you to take Rapidstrike from the Draconomicon which gives each of your slam attacks an iterative attack. Elan are psionic, so you can take Deflective Armor in Races of Stone, you can become psionically focused each morning and you shouldn't ever lose your psionic focus throughout the day so that feat will always be active.

Feats (1, 3, 6, 9, Fighter 1, 4, 8, 10), take two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) (No Time For Book Learning and Bestial Instinct (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258440-The-quot-Best-quot-Flaws#30)) for two extra feats:
Skill Focus: Intimidate (bonus from Zhentarim Soldier)
Combat Reflexes
Power Attack
Cleave
Improved Bull Rush
Knockback
Rapidstrike
Heavy Armor Optimization
Greater Heavy Armor Optimization
Deflective Armor
Imperious Command


At 10th level you should have 49,000 gp worth of gear:

You'll want Fearsome armor in Drow of the Underdark (which is a more recent version than the one in Magic Item Compendium), it can be put on just about any type of armor. You'll want heavy armor, so no mithral. You can get it made from Wildwood in Races of the Wild for -1 armor bonus and +1 max dex bonus, but I wouldn't bother since the armor bonus is added to your touch AC and the max dex bonus is lost when you're flat footed. Just wear normal Full Plate, get it made +1 or +2 with Fearsome, and you'll be good to go. Large masterwork Full Plate is 3300 gp, Fearsome is 5,000 gp, and +1 is 1,000 gp, for a total price of 9,300 gp for your armor.

Amulet of Mighty Fists (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#amuletofMightyFists) +1, 6,000 gp.
+1 Animated Heavy Steel Shield, large size, 9,190 gp.
Armbands of Might (MIC), +2 Enhancement bonus to Str added (MIC p234), 8,100 gp total.
Anklet of Translocation (MIC), 1,400 gp.
Necklace of Adaptation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#necklaceofAdaptation), 9,000 gp.
+1 Ring of Protection, 2,000 gp.
+2 Cloak of Resistance, 4,000 gp.
10 gp remaining.


Make your Dex score at least 12, preferably higher for Combat Reflexes. You'll need Cha 15 or higher for Imperious Command (you can choose to get +6 Con and +2 Cha from the variant Half-Fiend instead of +8 Con), and you'll probably want a decent Wis score for will saves.

Assuming Str 16 base, +16 race, +10 War Hulk, +2 levels, +2 enhancement, that's Str 46 for a +18 bonus. With your +10 BAB, and power attacking for -2 to get +4 damage with the Armbands of Might, your full attack should look as follows:
Two +1 Slams, total attacks +26/+26/+21/+21, damage 2d6+32 plus Knockback
Bull Rush +30, if they're knocked into a solid obstacle they take an additional 8d6+54 damage.
That means you get four attacks per round, each of which is capable of dealing 10d6+86 damage, for a total of 40d6+344 damage per round.
War Hulk makes it so every one of your attacks can hit three adjacent squares, so you can deal that damage to up to three separate creatures per round.

On top of that you'll have a 10 ft. reach and your attacks of opportunity will also trigger Knockback.

Plus you can make an Intimidate check every round as a swift action (and again as a move action if you don't need to full attack), an opponent you successfully intimidate will cower for one round and then be shaken on the following round (and get -2 versus your next intimidate check, which escalates that condition to frightened and then panicked). Get the Never Outnumbered skill trick in Complete Scoundrel, and once per encounter you can intimidate every opponent within 10 ft., still using a swift action and getting to full attack the same round. This allows you to make an intimidate check to crowd control an opponent every round, in addition to pummeling everyone into the walls, floor, even each other.

With at least Dex 12, the +1 Fearsome Full Plate, +1 Heavy Shield, +7 natural armor, +1 Ring of Protection, and large size, your AC will be 30, with a flat-footed AC 29 and a touch AC 20.

Future levels should just be more War Hulk and more Fighter. Once you max out War Hulk consider taking Survivor in Savage Species. I'd work toward getting (Greater) Weapon Focus/Specialization for your slam attacks, take Improved Rapidstrike at 15th level, and Melee Weapon Mastery and Weapon Supremacy in PH2.

[Troacctid]

Totemist//Bard. Use Dragonfire Inspiration with some traditional optimization techniques to get a large damage boost to all your attacks (and all your allies' attacks). Then either stack lots of natural attacks with your soulmelds to become a blender, or stack animal companions and familiars and use the Share Soulmeld feat to give all of them Manticore Belts. Or both. Either way, you get to make a zillion attacks and add a fistful of d6s to each one, while also buffing your allies to boot.

Feats you're going to want to take for this build: Expanded Soulmeld Capacity, Obtain Familiar, Share Soulmeld, Dragonfire Inspiration, Words of Creation. Oh, and use the Music of Creation variant for Bard to grab Song of the Heart instead of Inspire Greatness.

[Metahuman1]

Totemist//Bard. Use Dragonfire Inspiration with some traditional optimization techniques to get a large damage boost to all your attacks (and all your allies' attacks). Then either stack lots of natural attacks with your soulmelds to become a blender, or stack animal companions and familiars and use the Share Soulmeld feat to give all of them Manticore Belts. Or both. Either way, you get to make a zillion attacks and add a fistful of d6s to each one, while also buffing your allies to boot.

Feats you're going to want to take for this build: Expanded Soulmeld Capacity, Obtain Familiar, Share Soulmeld, Dragonfire Inspiration, Words of Creation. Oh, and use the Music of Creation variant for Bard to grab Song of the Heart instead of Inspire Greatness.

If you go this route, consider taking that draconic heritage feat or Draconic Creature Template (1 LA that you can buy off.), to be descended from a Song Dragon. There for making it MUCH harder for anything to resist or be immune to the bonus damage.


Consider also using 2 levels of Seeker Of The Song prestige Class from Complete Arcane to get both Inspire Courage and Dragonfire Inspiration up at the same time.

An Amulet of Mighty Fists with the Harmonizing property put on it, if the DM will allow that, wouldn't go amiss either.

[LordWolfKnight]

wow those are some pretty nifty builds guys and gals. i have never really optimized a character before as i can never remember things that work well together. i will be building each one to see which one i like the best and fits with my style of play thank you all so much for the advice and the build ideas.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Be sure to let us know which one you decide to use!

[LordWolfKnight]

sorry guys i will not be able to use any of your builds as my dm has given me a new character idea that he wants to see me use. i really do appreciate all the ideas though thanks i will be sure to use them in the future.

[LordWolfKnight]

not sure if i am allowed to do this but can i post a myth weavers sheet in here

[ExLibrisMortis]

Sure, no problem.

[LordWolfKnight]

this is what we came up with

https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1463396

[Matrota]

Surprised to see you take the infamously awful knight class after starting with warblade. Any real reason you chose knight? Progressing warblade is honestly going to better than knight 98% of the time.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Surprised to see you take the infamously awful knight class after starting with warblade. Any real reason you chose knight? Progressing warblade is honestly going to better than knight 98% of the time.

It's a gestalt character.

But still, Knight is extremely redundant with Warblade.

[LordWolfKnight]

well i ended up changing it to knight fighter as the idea behind this character is more important to me than just sheer mechanics and op-ness. I like the knight class as it allows me to distract the enemy from my companions mind you he has max hitpoints for now but when i play him he will have less that was just a look at how hard it is for him to die. but without all of you i would not have been inspired to work with my DM to make him so thank you all for all the help.

[Matrota]

well i ended up changing it to knight fighter as the idea behind this character is more important to me than just sheer mechanics and op-ness. I like the knight class as it allows me to distract the enemy from my companions mind you he has max hitpoints for now but when i play him he will have less that was just a look at how hard it is for him to die. but without all of you i would not have been inspired to work with my DM to make him so thank you all for all the help.

One of the biggest appeals of gestalting is the variety of options you gain. Fighter and knight together are very redundant and similar. You already gain the higher hit die of either one, so there's no real point to fighter when you're going knight unless you REALLY need the bonus feats. If the objective is to distract enemies and help allies, go crusader instead. They can do effective combat healing to allies, as well as having a plethora of maneuvers that are generally worth way more than the knight class features or fighter bonus feats.

For example, the iron guard glare stance imposes a -4 penalty to attack rolls against your allies, which is much better than the challenge feature of a knight. There is a 2nd level maneuver for crusaders called shield block that gives an adjacent ally a bonus to AC equal to 4+the shield's normal bonus as an immediate action. The 6th level knight feature can be mimicked with a 5,000 gp rod of Share Pain. The 4th level feature can be mimicked with a 2,000 gp Tooth of Savnok. The daunting challenge feature for knights is just a large area intimidation check, and there are better ways to do that.

I know you said you're not looking for an overpowered build, but if it's flavor you're after, crusader is just as good as knight in that aspect, and infinitely better than fighter. You don't have to super-optimize your character, but you should still make them playable. If this is a gestalt campaign, your knight/fighter build will likely be overshadowed by the other members of your party, as just about any other class can do a knight's job better than a knight can.

[Troacctid]

Rogue is actually strictly better than Fighter in this instance, if you already have the full BAB and d12 hit die on the other side. Just use the feat variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue) and you get literally the exact same abilities as Fighter while also gaining good Reflex saves and a boatload of extra skills, as well as things like evasion and uncanny dodge.

[DEMON]

Rogue is actually strictly better than Fighter in this instance, if you already have the full BAB and d12 hit die on the other side. Just use the feat variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue) and you get literally the exact same abilities as Fighter while also gaining good Reflex saves and a boatload of extra skills, as well as things like evasion and uncanny dodge.

While I was about to suggest the feat Rogue myself, instead of the Fighter, it should be said there are some things the feat Rogue cannot replicate.

The Fighter only feats and Fighter ACFs are off limits to the Rogue, and you're swapping a good Fortitude save for a good Reflex save. For a Knight (with good Will save), this Fortitude save is relevant.
Also, the Evasion ability is of questionable use to a Knight, given it only works when he's wearing light or no armour.

This, of course, can be resolved by the Spell Reflection ACF or, better yet, the Goliath (the OP's race) substitution level that gives you Mettle instead of Evasion (and a +4 bonus on Fortitude saves), as neither of these replacement abilities are limited to light/no armour.

Something like Fighter 4 / Rogue 6 (feat variant, Goliath sub level 2) // Knight 10 might be the optimal option, even if it delays the Rogue special abilities to levels 14, 17 and 20.

Alternatively, for a simple Knight 10 // something fitting gestalt, you might want to consider Paladin with the Holy Champion (CC) ACF, that gives you bonus feats at levels 4, 8, 11 and 14, instead of spellcasting?
Paladin 10 would give you a good Fortitude save, 2 bonus feats, special mount (fitting for a Knight) and a lot of new uses for your charisma (smite evil, divine grace, lay on hands and turn undead for powering divine and domain feats).

[LordWolfKnight]

One of the biggest appeals of gestalting is the variety of options you gain. Fighter and knight together are very redundant and similar. You already gain the higher hit die of either one, so there's no real point to fighter when you're going knight unless you REALLY need the bonus feats. If the objective is to distract enemies and help allies, go crusader instead. They can do effective combat healing to allies, as well as having a plethora of maneuvers that are generally worth way more than the knight class features or fighter bonus feats.

For example, the iron guard glare stance imposes a -4 penalty to attack rolls against your allies, which is much better than the challenge feature of a knight. There is a 2nd level maneuver for crusaders called shield block that gives an adjacent ally a bonus to AC equal to 4+the shield's normal bonus as an immediate action. The 6th level knight feature can be mimicked with a 5,000 gp rod of Share Pain. The 4th level feature can be mimicked with a 2,000 gp Tooth of Savnok. The daunting challenge feature for knights is just a large area intimidation check, and there are better ways to do that.

I know you said you're not looking for an overpowered build, but if it's flavor you're after, crusader is just as good as knight in that aspect, and infinitely better than fighter. You don't have to super-optimize your character, but you should still make them playable. If this is a gestalt campaign, your knight/fighter build will likely be overshadowed by the other members of your party, as just about any other class can do a knight's job better than a knight can.

well i was looking for something simple and i find the maneuvers to be complicated and usually i can only make one attack with them as a standard action so that drops, imo, my chances to hit as i am not rolling as many dice. now i also know that for most builds the crusader is the optimal choice but i am not really looking for optimal, as much as simple. not having control of what maneuvers i have granted is a pain in the neck, and not worth it imo.


Rogue is actually strictly better than Fighter in this instance, if you already have the full BAB and d12 hit die on the other side. Just use the feat variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue) and you get literally the exact same abilities as Fighter while also gaining good Reflex saves and a boatload of extra skills, as well as things like evasion and uncanny dodge.

i need actual levels in fighter for some of my feats so i am quite hesitant to give up my fighter levels. if i can find a way to get fighter levels without being a fighter than i might do that but as far as i know there is no way except with certain classes like warblade, which i also find a pain because the maneuvers are, imo, not worth taking cos i do not get the number of attacks that i find desirable.


While I was about to suggest the feat Rogue myself, instead of the Fighter, it should be said there are some things the feat Rogue cannot replicate.

The Fighter only feats and Fighter ACFs are off limits to the Rogue, and you're swapping a good Fortitude save for a good Reflex save. For a Knight (with good Will save), this Fortitude save is relevant.
Also, the Evasion ability is of questionable use to a Knight, given it only works when he's wearing light or no armour.

This, of course, can be resolved by the Spell Reflection ACF or, better yet, the Goliath (the OP's race) substitution level that gives you Mettle instead of Evasion (and a +4 bonus on Fortitude saves), as neither of these replacement abilities are limited to light/no armour.

Something like Fighter 4 / Rogue 6 (feat variant, Goliath sub level 2) // Knight 10 might be the optimal option, even if it delays the Rogue special abilities to levels 14, 17 and 20.

Alternatively, for a simple Knight 10 // something fitting gestalt, you might want to consider Paladin with the Holy Champion (CC) ACF, that gives you bonus feats at levels 4, 8, 11 and 14, instead of spellcasting?
Paladin 10 would give you a good Fortitude save, 2 bonus feats, special mount (fitting for a Knight) and a lot of new uses for your charisma (smite evil, divine grace, lay on hands and turn undead for powering divine and domain feats).

is spell reflection worth it? and for that matter mettle? i am not using the mounted combat abilities of knight, the big thing i want is to be the target of the enemy's attacks. that is why i like the knight's challenge and the sub-options within it.

[Troacctid]

For Warblade, you generally use your strikes when you are also moving in the same turn, which means that you couldn't have made a full attack anyway. When you do make a full attack, there are strikes, stances, and Warblade-specific feats that can enhance those, too. It also has options for moving and full attacking at the same time. The class is quite strong. It's just not simple.

Feats that require Fighter levels—such as the Weapon Specialization line—tend to be not worth taking. So, I would just not take those feats. There are other options for boosting damage, anyway.

Mettle is very good. You have to be a goliath for it, though. Spell Reflection is not as good as evasion, but the key to it is that it doesn't require light armor like evasion does, so it actually ends up being a good trade. I recommend combining it with the Spell Sense ACF to get a bonus to AC against spells, so that you can more reliably reflect them.

[LordWolfKnight]

okay well is there another way to become the focus of the enemy's attacks cos that is the only reason i am taking the knight class?

[Troacctid]

There is a Bard spell that does it. Crusader has some abilities that facilitate it as well. For the most part, it's a rare ability in this edition.

[GrayDeath]

Many, the easiest of which is to be the most obviously dangerous being in the battle.

The Knights Challenge is not to be confused with MMOesk Aggro Mechanics, it only works on one enemy at a time and even then its not great.

To really grab the enemies attention a character that can actuall REALLY hurt them even if they are outside of regular Charging range, is preferrable. Without changing the whole getup, I would suggest to switch the Fighter Variant to Warblade (it counts as a fighter of lower Level for Fighter only feats and, as said above, simply rocks), and use one or two of your feats for martial Study to get the Shadow hand Teleports, as these will allow you to get in the way of enemies, which is more effective than distracting one of them (at most) per round.

The build itself will still be simple, with the Warblade go for Iron heart (Surge) and Diamond Mind Maneuvers mostly (allow a good mix of strengthening your saves by replacing them with Concentration checks, given your Con a good alternative, and lots of damage).
You can still use your immense strength and fulla ttacks once you`re standing in front of the enemy, but your mobility and versatility will rise massively.
And the number of Maneuvers you`ll get is not that high, so it will still be relatively simple (not compared to the usual Ubercharger, but to any form of SPellcaster or a Swordsage).

[Troacctid]

Plus, a lot of monsters are naturally just gonna go "Tactics? What are tactics? I move to the nearest enemy and attack them in melee!"

[DEMON]

i need actual levels in fighter for some of my feats so i am quite hesitant to give up my fighter levels. if i can find a way to get fighter levels without being a fighter than i might do that but as far as i know there is no way except with certain classes like warblade, which i also find a pain because the maneuvers are, imo, not worth taking cos i do not get the number of attacks that i find desirable.

As Troacctid has mentioned, most of the Fighter only feats aren't the hottest stuff out there, but if you really want them, Fighter 4 / feat Rogue rest gives you access to most of the things that matter (i.e. Weapon Mastery) and actually give you one more bonus feat over plain Fighter (Fighter 10 gives you 6 feats, Fighter 4 / Rogue 6 give you 7, in addition to better skills and actual class features from the Rogue levels).


is spell reflection worth it? and for that matter mettle? i am not using the mounted combat abilities of knight, the big thing i want is to be the target of the enemy's attacks. that is why i like the knight's challenge and the sub-options within it.

Mettle is great. Even if the Goliath version is Fort only (Mettle from other sources usually works for both Fortitude and Will saves), between your Constitution score, Fighter levels and the +4 bonus from Goliath Rogue, you should be good. Spell reflection is a non-Goliath option for Rogues that don't want to be limited to light armour.

[LordWolfKnight]

There is a Bard spell that does it. Crusader has some abilities that facilitate it as well. For the most part, it's a rare ability in this edition.

what is the name of that spell as that would be really useful. i would also like to know what abilities the crusader has that make the enemy focus on me as honestly i am not seeing any.

and honestly if i am going to take rogue levels i would much rather take the sneak attack damage but i cant do both as i want this character to be as simple as possible. i really appreciate the thoughts but i think i am just going to stick with what i have as it works for the concept i had when i created him.

[Troacctid]

what is the name of that spell as that would be really useful.
Mindless Rage, from Spell Compendium. (And now that I look, it seems it's also a Sor/Wiz spell.) Compels the target to attack you in melee. Of course a good ol' Suggestion spell can also accomplish the same thing in most cases, I suppose.


i would also like to know what abilities the crusader has that make the enemy focus on me as honestly i am not seeing any.
Devoted Spirit stuff. Iron Guard's Glare, Defensive Rebuke, Thicket of Blades. It's a softer form of control than the Knight, since they can still attack other people if they're willing to pay the price, but it tends to be pretty effective anyway, especially since there's no saving throw like there is for the Knight's abilities. There's also some Stone Dragon stuff that can prevent them from moving past you.

[LordWolfKnight]

thank you i am in need of causing the enemy rather than the party sneak. while he does more damage he is often hit a lot and requires more healing than i do.

i want to thank everyone who posted a reply, as it helped me make a character that i am really interested in playing.

[rrwoods]

Crusader and the other initiator classes are much like spellcasters in that their abilities largely reside outside their class description, since their main schtick is maneuvers. The devoted spirit discipline, in particular Iron Guard’s Glare, is what gets you your “taunt” mechanics as a crusader.

Generally much of optimizing an initiator comes from deciding maneuvers that fit your concept and accomplish your combat objectives; their other class features are icing on the cake.