help with silent image

[Thac0 Redeye]

tonight the bad guy used silent image and we are confused as to when it can be "disbelieved".
Here's what happened. the bad guys used the spell to create a fake wall with a door. We knew they were behind the door and our druids large companion wolf tried to charge through the door and kept going. then the sorcerer moved to the wall and touched the wall to get a will save. the dm gave him a bonus because he saw the wolf go through. but he had to make a save. was this necessary? or would touching the illusion automatically succeed on the save? or if the save was failed would the illusion feel like a real wall?

[Deophaun]

Touching the illusion would have been enough to disbelieve, no save required:


A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw. A character who falls through a section of illusory floor into a pit knows something is amiss, as does one who spends a few rounds poking at the same illusion. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.

Silent image only provides visual stimulus, not tactile. So even if you could somehow not notice something is amiss when you put your hand right through it, there can be no tactile sensation. Also, figments like silent image are not mind-affecting, so they cannot somehow trick you into not putting your hand through it if you resolve to interact with it.

Edit: Also, upon seeing the wolf go through, it would have been appropriate for anyone with ranks in Spellcraft to make a DC 21 (20 + spell level, in this case 1) check to identify the effect as silent image, which as above would be proof that the wall was an illusion, which would again negate the need for a saving throw.

Illusions are fragile, is what I'm saying.

[CharonsHelper]

I disagree entirely with Deophaun. I'd just consider that to be interacting.

D&D is a weird place where all sorts of crazy things happen. How did the character know that it wasn't a magic door that only lets the animal type through? Or only lets the first through? Or transported the wolf to another dimension? Or...

But - the image spells are a tricky thing to rule on - and they vary a LOT by DM. It's why I finally gave up on my organized play gnome illusionist (technically was a sorcerer - but nearly all illusion based) - too much table variation.

[Malroth]

A good rule of thumb is, when somebody spends a move or standard to test the illusion, everybody gets a save.

[Deophaun]

D&D is a weird place where all sorts of crazy things happen. How did the character know that it wasn't a magic door that only lets the animal type through? Or only lets the first through? Or transported the wolf to another dimension? Or...
Because he put his hand through it. And the example given in the PHB is precisely someone passing through the thing that should be physically present, so the "anything is possible" defense doesn't hold.

[Thac0 Redeye]

thanks for the clarification

[Acanous]

Illusions aren't perfect. They are incredibly powerful when used in the right ways- You can see through your own figments, for example. Enemies can't. Silent Image up a smokescreen or a wooden barricade and you suddenly have concealment, but your enemy doesn't.
You can use Silent Image to do all kinds of fun things, though it takes some imagination. Silent Image an oil slick, or caltrops and people will avoid stepping on certain tiles. You can use it to form a choke point or cause enemies to favour certain paths. That can be combined with area of effect happy party members, and greatly multiplies your power. Even at the low levels, using Silent Image to get enemies to group up makes them a great target for a vial of acid or alchemist's fire, and puts them in range of Burning Hands.

The real power behind illusions is combining them with other spells, tactics, and skills such as disguise/hide/bluff.
DMs don't usually have experience running for illusionists, so you really have to do your own research on the strengths and weaknesses of the school, and ensure *how* you use illusions is what keeps the DM from deciding that the enemies disbelieve without needing a save.

The Shadow school is a really great fallback, by the by, for when figments start to fail you.

[Segev]

This may not be 100% within the RAW, but the way I would run it is this:

Upon seeing the wolf go through it, everybody knows it's probably not solid, and gets an immediate disbelief save. They don't get the +4 unless somebody tells them it's an illusion, because otherwise it could be any number of effects which let the wolf go through the wall (including the wolf itself being an illusion). Those who make the save can see through it (though still perceive it faintly enough to know it's there); those who don't make the save see it as solid, still, but nothing prevents them from still acting like it's not there and trying to walk through it or shoot through it or what-have-you.

The disbelief save lets people see through, hear over, ignore the stench of, and know the feel of it is false. They don't get to make a save until something causes them to question its reality. This can be represented on the players' part by the players' own suspicion: they take a standard action to save to disbelieve, or they actively poke it and auto-make it if they can walk right through. Interacting in ways that don't auto-make the save include watching others interacting like that (it gives a reflexive save, but isn't automatic like it is for the guy who actually stuck his arm through it), fighting against it (lets you notice that you're never quite hitting it even if it doesn't let you pass through it with a solid hit), or other such things. Interaction grants a reflexive disbelief save.

And being TOLD it's an illusion also automatically grants you a save at +4, as long as the person saying so already really knows.