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Hate9
2018-01-16, 02:21 PM
I'm building a character for a game which I'm joining late, and the DM has required me to start my character off at level 1. This means that my character will begin 4 levels lower than the majority of the party.

How much can I make up for this difference with massive optimization, and what are some tips on doing so?

I'm already fairly decent at optimization, but nowhere near good enough for this.
All 1st party books are allowed (even UW, for what good it'll do), and I can probably convince the DM to allow fairly large amounts of cheese given my handicap.

Eldariel
2018-01-16, 02:49 PM
First of all, build a backline character and rely on your party for survivability. You are going to get slaughtered if you enter melee. This means playing a spellcaster, or if you absolutely refuse to play anything but a muggle, play an archer. Second, cooperate with the party. What might they be missing? A first level character can provide surprisingly decent contributions with the right spells even in a higher level party. Spells like Grease, Entangle, Enlarge Person, Silent Image, etc. remain relevant for a long while. Admittedly a muggle would have trouble but if the party could finance you a decent bow, you might be able to contribute.

Sadly (luckily) it's much harder to make a survivable level 1 character in PF than it is in 3.5. If you were running 3.5 I'd just recommend that you play a Conjurer with Abrupt Jaunt and rely on the party for the rest. As it stands, there's no god tier defense and any defenses, AC or Stealth you might have on a level 1 character is pretty irrelevant against the kinds of threats you might run into. Thus again, your only defense is not being in harm's way in the first place; hug the middle of the party and let the others protect you to the best of their ability, perhaps hiding behind a Tower Shield for full cover (you can use it untrained).

For most contribution I can't think of anything better than a Wizard. Conjurer or Diviner, ban Evocation and either Enchantment or Necromancy. Conjurer should pick up Teleportation (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo-arcane-schools/classic-arcane-schools/conjuration/teleportation/), Diviner Foresight (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo-arcane-schools/classic-arcane-schools/divination/foresight/). Both of those are like to increase your survivability to at least a small degree, much more so than any other school powers. The mentioned spells are what I'd recommend. Summons could be useful as trap monkeys or flankers or such but hopefully your party has someone better suited to fill that role and it's not worth using your sparse spell slots for 1 round summons that are completely outclassed anyways (at this point). You can also use Wand of Infernal Healing to keep yourself topped off once you can get it. Use stealth always as possible, for what it's worth.

You should catch up quickly enough.

exelsisxax
2018-01-16, 02:49 PM
I'm building a character for a game which I'm joining late, and the DM has required me to start my character off at level 1. This means that my character will begin 4 levels lower than the majority of the party.

How much can I make up for this difference with massive optimization, and what are some tips on doing so?

I'm already fairly decent at optimization, but nowhere near good enough for this.
All 1st party books are allowed (even UW, for what good it'll do), and I can probably convince the DM to allow fairly large amounts of cheese given my handicap.

Can anyone in the party cast spells? If so, you can stay relevant ONLY by playing a higher-scaling spellcaster with heavy optimization. You will never catch up, but standard tier 1 shenanigans can allow you to contribute as a useful member of the party - until a big monster rolls max damage and/or a crit and instantly kills you.

This sounds like a horrific idea to me, and I would never do this to my players as a DM or accept this as a player. So the strategy I personally suggest that you employ to maximum effect is: don't.

Florian
2018-01-16, 03:07 PM
This is PF, so expect massive XP gains and being on an evil level with the rest of the party relatively quick.

Base your character on a Fetchling or Tiefling Conjurer and aim for Infernalist. Both races have pretty good passive defenses, most conjuration-based BFC spells work right from the start (no, not Grease and Color Spray, but rather the vision and cloud-based ones, like Obscuring Mist) while transmutation spells are always a boon.

mistermysterio
2018-01-16, 03:17 PM
what's the party make-up?

Are any third party books allowed (i.e. DSP stuff)? Or paizo only?

Hate9
2018-01-16, 11:19 PM
what's the party make-up?

Are any third party books allowed (i.e. DSP stuff)? Or paizo only?

I don't have access to the party make-up right now, and 1st party only, yeah.

Sinewmire
2018-01-17, 10:33 AM
Ask if the DM is using extended downtown from Ultimate Campaign, convince the party to spend a week or so scounting or whatever and go adventuring by yourself as downtime! You'll catch up on XP albeit not in money.

Seriously though, level 1 in a party level of 4? That's pretty mean.

Alternatively, play up your lowly status. Offer to carry things, repeatedly refer to the party as Sir, and generally act like Baldric.

exelsisxax
2018-01-17, 11:17 AM
Ask if the DM is using extended downtown from Ultimate Campaign, convince the party to spend a week or so scounting or whatever and go adventuring by yourself as downtime! You'll catch up on XP albeit not in money.

Seriously though, level 1 in a party level of 4? That's pretty mean.

Alternatively, play up your lowly status. Offer to carry things, repeatedly refer to the party as Sir, and generally act like Baldric.

Worse: level 1 in a party of APL 5. He's 4 levels lower. HP is still so low he could die from max damage greataxe rolls before crits, but enemies that actually challenge the party at that level are likely to have multiple attacks in a full attack that can each kill a level 1 PC, from full HP to -10, in slightly more than average damage.

Coidzor
2018-01-17, 12:41 PM
Just walk away, they clearly don't want you there.

Psyren
2018-01-17, 01:19 PM
Just walk away, they clearly don't want you there.

This; unless the first session is "suddenly, you find an elixir that immediately gives you 2-3 levels when drunk", your DM is being a jerk for no good reason. If they're truly unwilling to let you play on even footing and you still want to play with these people for some reason (or alternatively, if there are a lot of you), see if you can pilot someone's companion or cohort instead, like a summoner's eidolon, that will scale with the group.

Drelua
2018-01-17, 01:57 PM
I do have to agree that the GM's being unreasonable, I'd probably just tell them I'm not interested in playing. That said, the difference in XP between a 1st and 5th level character is about the same as the difference between a 7th and 8th, so you'll be levelling up quickly, if you can survive. Playing something that buffs the party might be a good idea, hopefully you'll be mostly caught up by the time you're a good enough buffer to be a priority for the enemies. The last thing you want is to be a priority. Be small and non-threatening, and have a stack of extra characters ready.

ericgrau
2018-01-17, 02:43 PM
Hide in back until you're high enough level. Something with plenty of HP. But you don't want to do anything defensive that will permanently cripple you at high levels. You might even do for example a melee build that uses a bow for now in spite of his feat selection. But melee will be tough to survive even 2 levels behind, so maybe not going that far. Something slightly more survivable in the long term too. For example pathfinder toughness isn't horrible even when you do equal party level.

A fighter volley archer is the easy way out. Something like dex > str > con. Or any combo with str or dex first. Dwarf or human. Plus toughness. But that won't contribute the most.

Or a sor/wiz with con as his first stat, casting stat 2nd, toughness and false life. Assuming you can't find a better replacement for a familiar, pick up a toad or cockroach familiar for 3 extra HP at level 1. Early on just stay alive. Later actually contribute. Putting con first isn't bad at all even long term as long as you pick BFC spells that don't have a save or do well even when the save is passed. Sleet storm, solid fog, wall spells, etc. It'll be really hard at level 1 but soon you'll make it and you'll contribute even before you fully catch up in level.

The DM is being unreasonable, but it's not like you have much to lose if you die and you'll catch up soon via one character or another. Tell him pretty please reconsider but if not still play. IMO no one should ever be more than 2 levels below the party, and at low level starting at most 1 level behind is more reasonable.

Treblain
2018-01-17, 09:18 PM
Be a ranged bard or skald, that way you can stay back and everyone will want to protect you. Skald might be more survivable since it can wear medium armor and use longbows. Inspire Courage and Inspired Rage don't even require you to be within 30 feet. Arcane Strike will let you ignore DR/Magic if you don't have good gear and is a decent feat anyway.

Jormengand
2018-01-18, 05:08 AM
Play front-line characters repeatedly and act surprised when you keep dying. Alternatively, repeatedly flee combat and, if questioned, remind everyone that your character is at such risk of dying against challenges such as these that there's no sense staying. Eventually, the DM will get the idea.

Jack_Simth
2018-01-18, 07:53 AM
You will never catch upWell... the OP will never fully catch up (well, unless other players miss out on XP or you get a bunch of RP XP or something else that's a single-character reward), but the difference will become progressively less relevant with time. Pathfinder uses fixed XP (3.5 is scaling, so you'd naturally catch up there), but still use scaling advancement tables. On the slow progression, the difference between a 1st level character and a 5th is 23,000 XP. The difference between a 7th and an 8th level character is 24,000 XP. With the fast progression, those XP numbers are 10,000 and 11,000 (respectively). So in three levels for the rest of the party, the OP will be less than 1 full level behind. The difference between 19th and 20th is 700,000 XP on fast, and 1,500,000 xp on slow. By that point, the difference will be close to meaningless.

Gnaeus
2018-01-18, 07:58 AM
This is when I would recommend the slumber hex witch. Save DC only 2 lower than if you were 5. Don’t put any spells in familiar yet, and get the mauler archetype so he is another speed bump between them and you. Cast defensive spells and spam slumber. Alternately, Shaman is tougher but doesn’t get slumber until 2

Jack_Simth
2018-01-18, 06:51 PM
This is when I would recommend the slumber hex witch. Save DC only 2 lower than if you were 5. Don’t put any spells in familiar yet, and get the mauler archetype so he is another speed bump between them and you. Cast defensive spells and spam slumber. Alternately, Shaman is tougher but doesn’t get slumber until 2

Building on that... if you the OP plays a human, and takes Accursed Hex (try again the next round if it fails the first time) and Ability Focus(Slumber Hex) (+2 DC - it's a monster feat, but still Paizo, and your Hex is most definitely a special attack), you'll probably do fairly well. Just remember to keep one of your party members between you and everything else.

Quarian Rex
2018-01-19, 03:07 AM
You might want to consider an Alchemist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist) as well. Early selection of Infusion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/Alchemist/discoveries/paizo-alchemist-discoveries/infusion) allows you to put buffs/heals in the hands of the other PCs, maintaining a meaningful contribution while staying out of harms way. Tumor Familiar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/Alchemist/discoveries/paizo-alchemist-discoveries/tumor-familiar-ex) with the Protector (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar/familiar-archetypes/protector-familiar-archetype/) familiar archetype (on a high Dex familiar) allows aid other bonuses to AC with the familiars' Bodyguard (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/bodyguard-combat) feat. Once you get to 5th level you get to share half your incoming damage with a tumor that has fast healing 5.

If the situation needs you to take a more active role in the encounter you have Bombs, relatively plentiful touch attacks that get +Int to damage, and can later be modified with some interesting CC abilities and such. If you can get to level 10, well then welcome to functional immortality (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/Alchemist/discoveries/paizo-alchemist-discoveries/doppelganger-simulacrum-su) as you can now ride around in fully capable clones of yourself. Any time you get killed you can just jump into another clone body (in fact, you can switch bodies whenever you want. Great for business in another city or delivering messages, etc.), never having to worry about getting bumped back to 1st level again. The only limit on the number of extra lives is 1,000 gp and a week of downtime each.