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Laharal
2007-08-25, 12:00 AM
I read the monk's description and one of his class-related weapon is the shuriken. I was surpised with the 1d2 damage. I understand that you add your STR bonus and that you can have them in a flurry of blow but even then, I don't find them very useful since a monk can wield a 1d10 heavy crossbow or make 1d6 unarmed strike (can be use in a flurry)+STR. Also, their range is only 10 feet.

Could someone explain to me in what situations a shuriken becomes useful and powerful enough to replace other weapons options?

Thanks for your time,

Karsh
2007-08-25, 12:04 AM
Two words: Master Thrower.

With 5 levels of a PrC, you get to fire volleys of two shuriken per attack, and can hit as touch attacks and then bounce off the original target and make each deal damage and allow a trip check/chance to hit a second enemy as well. The trick is to find bonus dice like Flaming/Freezing weapons, and then stack the hell out of it.

TSGames
2007-08-25, 01:05 AM
Could someone explain to me in what situations a shuriken becomes useful and powerful enough to replace other weapons options?

Thanks for your time,

It is not useful, ever. 1d2 damage is never useful as a ranged attack, if you have to resort to it, you're probably already dead. I heard that in 3.0 a character would throw three shurikens at once. In any case, all the groups I DM for or play in have house-ruled this to be the case. This means a monk at level 1 can flurry with shurikens and deal 6d2 damage if they all hit. It's not amazing, there are much better throwing weapons, and certainly there are weapons easier to cheese up than the shuriken. Remember: Just say "NO!" (to shurikens)

Ramza00
2007-08-25, 01:14 AM
May i introduce you to the thri keen.

Thri Keen 2/Monk 1/Fighter 1/Psychic Warrior 2/War Mind 10/Master Thrower 5

bab of 19.25

Using talashorsha (sp?) from secrets of sarlona to do the monk's damage and to flurry as a monk.

Using the feats to grab multiweapon fighting feat chain, using double toss.

2 Double Toss*(4 attacks Hand 1+3 attacks Hand 2+3 attacks Hand 3+3 attacks Hand 4+2 flurry)=30 shrunken attacks.

TSGames
2007-08-25, 01:18 AM
May i introduce you to the thri keen.

Thri Keen 2/Monk 1/Fighter 1/Psychic Warrior 2/War Mind 10/Master Thrower 5

bab of 19.25

Using talashorsha (sp?) from secrets of sarlona to do the monk's damage and to flurry as a monk.

Using the feats to grab multiweapon fighting feat chain, using double toss.

2 Double Toss*(4 attacks Hand 1+3 attacks Hand 2+3 attacks Hand 3+3 attacks Hand 4+2 flurry)=30 shrunken attacks.
I don't think he wanted an epic ECL build...

Inane-Fedaykin
2007-08-25, 01:20 AM
Shurikens are an inferior weapon as is.

kpenguin
2007-08-25, 01:23 AM
The only things that are good about shurikens:

1) They're treated as ammunition, so you can enchant 50 for cost of one dagger, javelin, or other thrown weapon.
2) You can flurry with them, but if you're a monk you shouldn't be ranging anyway.
3) They look cool

That's pretty much it...

Gralamin
2007-08-25, 01:26 AM
The only things that are good about shurikens:

1) They're treated as ammunition, so you can enchant 50 for cost of one dagger, javelin, or other thrown weapon.
2) You can flurry with them, but if you're a monk you shouldn't be ranging anyway.
3) They look cool

That's pretty much it...

don't forget Bassetking's infinite damage combo that uses a 1d2 weapon in melee, like a shuriken.

Ramza00
2007-08-25, 02:05 AM
I don't think he wanted an epic ECL build...

Using LA bubyback it isn't epic. If you don't use it just reduce the level of armind by 1 or 2 depending on what form of thri keen you use. It is the same build, and it is a pretty solid progression as soon as you get double toss (which you should get ASAP).

Yeril
2007-08-25, 02:25 AM
Two words: Master Thrower.

With 5 levels of a PrC, you get to fire volleys of two shuriken per attack, and can hit as touch attacks and then bounce off the original target and make each deal damage and allow a trip check/chance to hit a second enemy as well. The trick is to find bonus dice like Flaming/Freezing weapons, and then stack the hell out of it.

Or you could just do exacly the same with Darts for 1d4 damage instead of 1d2

kpenguin
2007-08-25, 02:27 AM
Or you could just do exacly the same with Darts for 1d4 damage instead of 1d2

Or daggers

NEO|Phyte
2007-08-25, 02:40 AM
don't forget Bassetking's infinite damage combo that uses a 1d2 weapon in melee, like a shuriken.

Shurikens can't be used in melee.

Draz74
2007-08-25, 03:44 AM
1) They're treated as ammunition, so you can enchant 50 for cost of one dagger, javelin, or other thrown weapon.

Which is actually huge. 100 shuriken with +2 enchantments is very affordable by mid-levels. If those shuriken have a wide variety of enchantments on them (+1 Flaming, +1 Frost, +1 Shock, +1 Dragon-Bane, +1 Undead-Bane, +1 Human-Bane ...), they can make you a pretty flexible archer-type character.

Why can't you just do the same with other ammunition? Well, you can, but shuriken are better than most non-bow ranged weapons for a number of reasons still:
- You can add Strength to damage, unlike a crossbow. Your Strength doesn't have to be ridiculously high before your 1d2+Str is doing just as much damage as the crossbow's base damage.
- You can use iterative attacks, with none of the annoying reloading rules that slings or crossbows have. This might not matter at low levels, but once your BAB gets above +5 it's important. (Besides the ammunition-cost thing, this is also the advantage of shuriken over other thrown weapons: saves you a Quick Draw feat.)
- You can flurry with it. That extra attack matters if you have decent strength and you're using a Bane shuriken against its proper target. :smallamused: Stack this with Rapid Shot to get three attacks at low levels.

These are why shuriken are my second-favorite ranged weapon.

Of course, bows can add Strength to damage and get iterative attacks without a feat, too. And they do slightly more base damage (up to 3 more), have a much longer range (compared to anything, not just shuriken) and get their own feat (Manyshot), even in core. And they're marshal weapons and elven bonus proficiencies, so they're usually easier to be proficient with than shuriken. And you can have a magic bow and its special effects (e.g. Seeking) will stack with the ammunitions' abilities. So bows are, overall, a far better weapon than shuriken (or any other ranged weapon).

There are a few minor reasons why some characters (Monks) should use shuriken over bows, though:
- Flurry again
- Proficiency: non-elf Monks aren't even proficient with bows! And a non-elf Cleric archer is smarter, IMHO, to dip a level or two in Monk than he is to take Martial Weapon Proficiency: Longbow. (But not by much. Just be an elf.)
- Only takes one hand to throw shuriken. Takes two to fire a bow. Not usually a concern, but it can matter.
- Shuriken are less vulnerable to things that can attack the bow or the Strength of a Mighty Bow's wielder. Sunder, Ray of Enfeeblement ... not too scary for a shuriken-thrower.

Captain van der Decken
2007-08-25, 04:19 AM
You could enchant them as unholy and hand them to random peasants until you find some good-aligned ones.

Subotei
2007-08-25, 04:57 AM
Has anyone tried making a monk with rogue levels to get the sneak attack bonus? A flurry of shurikens with sneak attack could be a rather nice start to a combat.

[This is where someone who knows the rules tells me you can't do that]

kpenguin
2007-08-25, 05:00 AM
Has anyone tried making a monk with rogue levels to get the sneak attack bonus? A flurry of shurikens with sneak attack could be a rather nice start to a combat.

[This is where someone who knows the rules tells me you can't do that]

You could get the same effect from using a bow and taking Rapid Shot.

Subotei
2007-08-25, 05:06 AM
True - but that takes a feat.

kpenguin
2007-08-25, 05:08 AM
True - but that takes a feat.

Whereas yours puts levels into a fairly useless class. Besides, taking the archery feat tree is pretty useful for a rogue, especially once he qualifies for feats like Improved Manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot).

Orzel
2007-08-25, 05:09 AM
There's only 2 reasons for using them.

Ninjas: Flurry of Throws feat vs a group
Monks: TWF Flurry shuriken jacked up on enhancements.

nagora
2007-08-25, 05:09 AM
I read the monk's description and one of his class-related weapon is the shuriken. I was surpised with the 1d2 damage. I understand that you add your STR bonus and that you can have them in a flurry of blow but even then, I don't find them very useful since a monk can wield a 1d10 heavy crossbow or make 1d6 unarmed strike (can be use in a flurry)+STR. Also, their range is only 10 feet.


10 FEET?! That must have an errata somewhere. The first time I ever threw a shuriken I threw it more than 10 feet and hit a target 1 foot across. And the second and third times too. I sure ain't no monk!

I'd at least tripple that for starters.

Plus: much lighter than a heavy X-bow, and smaller than any type of bow.
Plus plus: poison.

Zincorium
2007-08-25, 05:16 AM
10 FEET?! That must have an errata somewhere. The first time I ever threw a shuriken I threw it more than 10 feet and hit a target 1 foot across. And the second and third times too. I sure ain't no monk!

I'd at least tripple that for starters.

Plus: much lighter than a heavy X-bow, and smaller than any type of bow.
Plus plus: poison.

The range increment is 10 feet. And you can throw them up to 5 of those increments, at a penalty of -2 per increment. And they say the rules are clear as written...I don't know how many people miss that.

50 feet as the maximum practical range for shuriken seems reasonable to me, and at that range the target is going to have to be pretty darn big for an average person to hit it reliably (like, the ground, or the proverbial broad side of a barn).

Far shot improves this out to 100 feet.


And a last note, there is absolutely nothing stopping you from poisoning the bolts of your crossbow. And it would be safer, shuriken are small sharp objects that you hold in your hand. Unless you're a monk and are immune to poison, just not a good idea.

Orzel
2007-08-25, 05:31 AM
Fun tactic:

As a monk, run 10ft in front of some loser, flurry his face with +1 icy poisoned shurikens, slash his chest with your other long deformed arm (with a feat) wielding a hand axe, then wait to be crushed.

Option 2: Grab Quick Draw (instead of Inhuman reach or Deformity(tall)) and chuck daggers off hand.

Tengu
2007-08-25, 05:45 AM
Larger and returning shuriken - now that'd be useful.

nagora
2007-08-25, 05:47 AM
The range increment is 10 feet. And you can throw them up to 5 of those increments, at a penalty of -2 per increment. And they say the rules are clear as written...I don't know how many people miss that.

Fair enough; I should have checked it before taking it at face value.


50 feet as the maximum practical range for shuriken seems reasonable to me, and at that range the target is going to have to be pretty darn big for an average person to hit it reliably (like, the ground, or the proverbial broad side of a barn).

Or a high level monk who can do incredible things like slip between dimensions.


And a last note, there is absolutely nothing stopping you from poisoning the bolts of your crossbow. And it would be safer, shuriken are small sharp objects that you hold in your hand. Unless you're a monk and are immune to poison, just not a good idea.

Well, we are assuming a monk here. Shurikens are a niche weapon. There are times and places where you might want to not have any bulky equipment with you at all, or for that matter want to depend on a mechanical system. I know there's not many rules which would enforce that but I can see a creative player and/or DM constructing such. But they're never going to be a main melee weapon.

martyboy74
2007-08-25, 07:07 AM
Anyone know how Shurikens work when you have them enchanted with speed? Can you fire off all 50 of them in one round?

Zincorium
2007-08-25, 07:18 AM
Anyone know how Shurikens work when you have them enchanted with speed? Can you fire off all 50 of them in one round?

An optimist, huh?

The truth is a lot less exciting but far simpler.

You get to throw another shuriken. And that's it. Speed effects don't stack, so once you've gotten an extra attack, that's it. No quantity of speed weapons will grant you more than one.

martyboy74
2007-08-25, 07:34 AM
An optimist, huh?

The truth is a lot less exciting but far simpler.

You get to throw another shuriken. And that's it. Speed effects don't stack, so once you've gotten an extra attack, that's it. No quantity of speed weapons will grant you more than one.

I thought that speed effects stacked, as long as you used a different speed weapon. (Oh. I guess that sort of ruins the shuriken thing). But it's 1 extra attack with +1 speed longsword, and 1 extra attack with +2 speed throwing dagger and 1 extra attack with the +1 speed greatsword. This is assuming that you have quick draw, and money coming out your ass.

Zincorium
2007-08-25, 07:46 AM
I thought that speed effects stacked, as long as you used a different speed weapon. (Oh. I guess that sort of ruins the shuriken thing). But it's 1 extra attack with +1 speed longsword, and 1 extra attack with +2 speed throwing dagger and 1 extra attack with the +1 speed greatsword. This is assuming that you have quick draw, and money coming out your ass.



Speed

When making a full attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack uses the wielder’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)



Generally, it's thought that the speed enchantment is pretty darn similiar to the speed enchantment, even more than the haste spell, and so multiple speed weapons don't stack.

martyboy74
2007-08-25, 07:53 AM
It's not affecting the same weapon. But, seeing as I've accidently hijacked this thread, let me fix it.

What about adding the TWF tree in? Shurikens can be TWFed, after all.

YellowNeverRed
2007-08-25, 08:44 AM
I read a short story once in which a character essentially used shuriken as sling ammo. I have no idea whether that would actually work, but it does seem like a handy way to increase the velocity of the shuriken, along the lines of a spear-thrower or atlatl.

Actually, I've never heard of atlatls in D&D, which is weird since they were so prevalent in history.

But a shuriken-sling would fix a lot of the damage- and range- related issues, despite removing the ability to throw more than one at a time, as well as any hint of historical accuracy

Anxe
2007-08-25, 08:52 AM
It used to be useful because you could throw 3 with one attack. Now they're just for flavor. No munchkin would ever use them.

Weezer
2007-08-25, 10:18 AM
I like to use them as annoyance weapons, having a couple ninjas stick some poisoned surikens into the parties spell caster can be a real annoyance and the use of surikens is pretty cool flavor wise.

Ramza00
2007-08-25, 11:21 AM
It's not affecting the same weapon. But, seeing as I've accidently hijacked this thread, let me fix it.

What about adding the TWF tree in? Shurikens can be TWFed, after all.

Yes they can be TWF they can also be Multi Weapon Fighted (as in a thri keen with 4 hands)

BDEYE
2007-08-25, 02:16 PM
They're definately not meant as anybody's main weapon, but they're a nice little bonus if you're playing a Monk or a Ninja. They're cheap to enchant in bulk, you can flurry with them, you don't need to take Quick Draw to use them effectively, and they provide Monks with a way to do Piercing damage from a distance. You can also use them to do Stunning attacks (which can be a fun way to shut down a group of mooks combined with Rapid Stunning and a flurry). And you can use them for fun environmental stuff like cutting ropes. Not worth a bunch of feats and not good as a primary weapon, but they're a nice free bonus.

If you do want to invest in their use, however, I'd recommend Rapid Stunning, anything that lets you throw more of them in one turn, and especially Ranged Disarm, Ranged Pin, and maybe Ranged Sunder. Send out a quick flurry to mess everybody up, then move in for melee.

Fax Celestis
2007-08-25, 02:43 PM
Actually, I've never heard of atlatls in D&D, which is weird since they were so prevalent in history.

Atl-atl appear in Sandstorm, IIRC.

tannish2
2007-08-25, 02:52 PM
so... wait what book is double toss in? and while were on the subject, what type of damage would a shruiken for a large creature be? enlarge person is only a first level spell...

Thanatos 51-50
2007-08-25, 02:54 PM
One would assume hitting people with the pointy end of the shurikien. Perferabbly multiple times.
Poison and magic are always nice, too.

But mostly the hitting of people multiple times.

The_Werebear
2007-08-25, 03:05 PM
My Girlfriend's character took them, aiming for the master thrower class, because it is easier and cheaper to get a stack of ammo enchanted than a bunch of daggers with returning.

So, really only if you are a dedicated throwing build that can't afford multiple heavily enchanted daggers. And have some form of extra damage like sneak attack.

MrNexx
2007-08-25, 03:27 PM
You can also use them to do Stunning attacks (which can be a fun way to shut down a group of mooks combined with Rapid Stunning and a flurry).

Wow... that's right. You could stunning attack with shuriken, because they're special monk weapons. Nothing in Stunning Fist specifies that it must be melee... it assumes Unarmed, but the monk ability supercedes that.

Rama_Lei
2007-08-25, 03:55 PM
Is a shuriken with the returning ability still usable? Thrown weapons say yes, while ammunition says no.

MrNexx
2007-08-25, 03:56 PM
I would rule yes, though RAW is no.

Fax Celestis
2007-08-25, 03:58 PM
Actually, RAW is yes too. Shuriken, despite being "treated as ammunition for the purposes of enchanting them", are still thrown weapons and not actually ammunition.

Rama_Lei
2007-08-25, 04:26 PM
cool. So if you you get a monk with speed shuriken, you'll get an extra attack for each attack you make in a flurry of blows.

Renx
2007-08-25, 04:51 PM
Wouldn't Shurikens of Speed be priced as per DMG? Speed is a +3, so 18,000GP per 50. 360GP per shuriken, ouch. And doesn't Speed weapon work like haste, in that it grants you one extra attack when using a full round attack?

Hmmm... it does say "this benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell". Taken munchkin-ly, this could be taken to mean that it does, in fact, stack with itself.

Leicontis
2007-08-25, 04:54 PM
From the SRD:

Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them and what happens to them after they are thrown.
So they break like ammunition, and enchant like ammunition, so RAW is no, they can't be returning.

First step in horribly breaking shuriken is to have one or more support casters, at least one of which has access to the Flame Arrow spell and can do a variety of energy substitutions (either by having multiple feats or by being an Arcmage), as well as the Greater Magic Weapon spell and the Keen Edge spell. Now enchant the shuriken with a +1 enhancement, and appropriate damage-increasing modifiers (based on alignment and race of expected targets). If you've got magic-psionics transparency running, Collision is a nice property (+5 base damage for +2 equivalency). Assuming your target is not Neutral on either axis, let's assume we've got a +1 <target>-bane dual-aligned Collision Wounding enchantment (total of +10). Throw in the above-discussed spells, you've got +5 Keen Shocking Flaming Frost Acidic Bane Aligned Aligned Collision Wounding shuriken, dealing 1d2+10d6+12 damage and 1 Constitution damage per hit, a 19-20/x2 crit. Strength bonus to damage is disregarded, because of the build. Weapon
Specialization isn't factored in here because of the build, also.

Wield these with your choice of build, utilizing at least one level of Monk (for Flurry) and three levels of Master Thrower (for Palm Throw, to double your throws, and Weak Spot to make your attacks touch attacks). A Haste spell doesn't exactly hurt, either. With 30+ of these per round, we're talking some SERIOUS damage output, assuming the Con damage doesn't kill the target first. Finally, to add even more injury to injury, poison all of the shuriken.

Amphimir Míriel
2007-08-25, 05:12 PM
Larger and returning shuriken - now that'd be useful.

Something like this (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085811/)?

Man! the board sure is nostalgic today! (see the thread about the 4th ed covers)

Fax Celestis
2007-08-25, 05:22 PM
Another way to make shuriken effective is to not use them and instead cast the fire shuriken spell.

averagejoe
2007-08-25, 05:34 PM
I once had a druid, whose animal companion was a monkey, whom I trained to throw shuriken, so I got him a few flaming ones. I'm not sure if it was that powerful, but it was damn cool. (This was 3.0, however, so he could throw three, and his massive strength penalty didn't affect the damage, because they were considered "too light" 3.0.)

Renx
2007-08-25, 05:43 PM
Don't forget the 3rd level spell Weapon of Impact (at least Clr3). Doubles threat range. //Edit1: (for 50 ammo at a time)

TSGames
2007-08-25, 05:57 PM
Using LA bubyback it isn't epic. If you don't use it just reduce the level of armind by 1 or 2 depending on what form of thri keen you use. It is the same build, and it is a pretty solid progression as soon as you get double toss (which you should get ASAP).

Even with LA buyback it is an epic ECL build. Thri-kreen have racial HD, depending the version you use, two or three of them.

Fax Celestis
2007-08-25, 05:59 PM
Even with LA buyback it is an epic ECL build. Thri-kreen have racial HD, depending the version you use, two or three of them.

And he's counting that in the build, which is why it starts with "Thri-Kreen 2/..."

TSGames
2007-08-25, 06:04 PM
And he's counting that in the build, which is why it starts with "Thri-Kreen 2/..."

Sorry, it was my mistake. My only other complaint would be the use of fraction BAB.

Dragonmuncher
2007-08-25, 06:04 PM
Master Thrower and Exotic Weapon Master both add lots of interesting options for a shuriken-wielder. The ability that allows one to throw as a touch attack is very effective, especially if you add poison and other effects.

ZeroNumerous
2007-08-25, 06:16 PM
Monk 1/Rogue X/Master Thrower 5/Rogue +X would work for a Monk/rogue combo. Namely because Ascetic Rogue gives you +Rogue levels to Monk abilities.

A Thri-keen Monk/Rogue/Master Thrower with Multi-Weapon Fighting, Rapid Shot and Haste is looking at 2 Shuriken a toss and 10 tosses. Enchant to your heart's content.

Downside: Collecting all those shuriken again.

ForzaFiori
2007-08-25, 07:23 PM
Monk 1/Rogue X/Master Thrower 5/Rogue +X would work for a Monk/rogue combo. Namely because Ascetic Rogue gives you +Rogue levels to Monk abilities.

A Thri-keen Monk/Rogue/Master Thrower with Multi-Weapon Fighting, Rapid Shot and Haste is looking at 2 Shuriken a toss and 10 tosses. Enchant to your heart's content.

Downside: Collecting all those shuriken again.

good news is, since they're treated like ammo now, you only have to collect the ones you miss with.

after that you gotta buy more though.

Thrawn183
2007-08-25, 08:42 PM
I'd actually been looking at the fire shuriken spell for a couple of days now. I'm curious because it doesn't seem like there is any duration on them. So couldn't you just make a virtually limitless supply of shuriken that do 3d6 fire damage? It doesn't say anything about you needing to hold them, or them disappearing if you stop holding them.

Dr. Weasel
2007-08-25, 09:12 PM
Maybe if you used a Monk 1/Psychic Warrior 6/Master Thrower 5/Psychic Warrior 8, you could get enough distance out of the weapon enhancing/poisoning/energizing powers to avoid paying for the weapon enhancements that give shurikens their damage. You'd have decent Wisdom synergy which is nice, I suppose.