PAM and +3 glaive or Holy Avenger GS for a vengeance paladin?

[Bayonet300]

Hi guys, I'm at a crossroads with my level 14 human vengeance paladin in our campaign. Presently, I'm packing a +3 glaive and the feats polearm master, sentinel, and great weapon master to abuse the lockdown strategy. However, I now have the chance to score a Holy Avenger greatsword, a particularly awesome weapon, but one that doesn't mesh well with some of my feats. I can't repick my feats and the Holy Avenger only comes in the mentioned form. For sake of optimization, do you think I should stick with my glaive or drop it for the Holy Avenger greatsword? Thanks!

[Feuerphoenix]

Well, assuming you stay levelling your pally, I would go with Holy Avenger. Because assuming you will hit level 15, you get an alternative way of using your reaction for dealing damage anyway (Soul of Vengance), while GWM also allows you to use your bonus action from time to time.

Yes, it is not quite as reliable, but+2d10 radiant against fiends and undead is a lot, and especially with your additional protective aura against ALL spells AND magical effects, you will become a nightmare for your dm. I assume you have around 16 in Charisma, so having advantage there is a pretty big deal, not only for you, but also for your group as a whole.

[hymer]

The holy avenger requires attunement. If you're struggling for attunement slots, that's something to consider. But you're not going to actually drop one weapon for the other, are you? I mean, you can keep both, and use whatever suits the situation best, I'm guessing.
I'm thinking the sword will do best for most fights what with the aura and all, and the polearm can come out of your preferred extradimensional storage for reaching across friends to attack enemies and control of melee foes.

[BobZan]

Holy Avenger Greatsword is THE dream.

Fights against Fiends and Undead or spellcasters, Holy Avenger Greatsword. Rest go with your +3 Glaive, to benefit from your hard earned feats.

[Mikal]

Why not use both? Use the polearm except for the times the great sword would be better for you, such as when fighting fiends, undead, or you really need that aura.

There's nothing wrong at all with using two weapons, one as a backup for those special times it's just better than your primary...

[Ganymede]

Neither.

Hold out until you're able to find a necklace made from all the orbs of Dragonkind on a string, then multiclass Wizard.

[Easy_Lee]

Holy Avenger would be my choice. I prefer to be awesome sometimes rather than just good all the time.

[Mikal]

Holy Avenger would be my choice. I prefer to be awesome sometimes rather than just good all the time.

Why is everyone acting as if this has to be either/or...
OP already has the polearm, and has a chance to get the HA. Last time I checked, you can have more than a single weapon...

[Easy_Lee]

Why is everyone acting as if this has to be either/or...
OP already has the polearm, and has a chance to get the HA. Last time I checked, you can have more than a single weapon...

Because the OP puts it in such terms. I assume there is a reason why he doesn't just take both, which would be the obvious solution otherwise.

[Mikal]

Because the OP puts it in such terms. I assume there is a reason why he doesn't just take both, which would be the obvious solution otherwise.

Maybe the OP missed the obvious?

[Mandragola]

Definitely the holy avenger. I'm very jealous as my own lvl 14 vengeance paladin just has a +1 greatsword (which becomes +2 against bloodied things). I dream of having a holy avenger greatsword.

[Easy_Lee]

Maybe the OP missed the obvious?

Always possible

[Mikal]

Always possible

Well, just in case I'm wrong, and it's something like having to trade the one weapon for the other, I'm going to go the other route and say stick with the glaive.

You can either
1) Have reach
2) Have an OA when someone enters reach
3) Have an OA when someone leaves reach without using resources or having a special ability
4) Have a 3rd attack with the bonus action all the time vs. whenever you crit/drop someone
5) Make use of two feats/ASI you invested

or
1) Have extra damage against 2 types of enemies
2) Have advantage on saves vs spells/magical effects

Personally, I think the first option is better. You make use of your spent resources in PAM and maximize Sentinel, In addition, instead of getting 2d10 extra damage in small circumstances (undead and fiends) you get an extra 1d4+str+1d8 radiant damage from improved smite+GWM+optional divine smite+3.

Personally 1d4+Str+3+1d8 all the time is better than an additional 2d10 vs. some enemies.
The former is an average of 15 damage against everyone vs. 22 against undead and fiends (damage on bonus attack vs. two attacks with 2d10 against the holy avenger vulnerable enemies).

If you factor GWM into the above, then the average damage becomes 25 vs. 22 with the caveat of missing more easily.

[KorvinStarmast]

You can either
1) Have reach
2) Have an OA when someone enters reach
3) Have an OA when someone leaves reach without using resources or having a special ability
4) Have a 3rd attack with the bonus action all the time vs. whenever you crit/drop someone
5) Make use of two feats/ASI you invested

or
1) Have extra damage against 2 types of enemies
2) Have advantage on saves vs spells/magical effects

Personally, I think the first option is better. You make use of your spent resources in PAM and maximize Sentinel, In addition, instead of getting 2d10 extra damage in small circumstances (undead and fiends) you get an extra 1d4+str+1d8 radiant damage from improved smite+GWM+optional divine smite+3.

Personally 1d4+Str+3+1d8 all the time is better than an additional 2d10 vs. some enemies.
The former is an average of 15 damage against everyone vs. 22 against undead and fiends (damage on bonus attack vs. two attacks with 2d10 against the holy avenger vulnerable enemies).

If you factor GWM into the above, then the average damage becomes 25 vs. 22 with the caveat of missing more easily. While I don't disagree with your points in general, review the level at which this person is playing. 14 and up. Check the CR of monsters at that level and higher. Look at the features. Adventures to the lower planes are not uncommon at those levels. The Holy Avenger has some serious bonuses against fiends and magic, while the pole arm certainly has a major advantage versus crowds of lesser enemies.
It's a tough choice, and I am of the opinion that he carry both as you noted above.

[Mikal]

While I don't disagree with your points in general, review the level at which this person is playing. 14 and up. Check the CR of monsters at that level and higher. Look at the features. Adventures to the lower planes are not uncommon at those levels. The Holy Avenger has some serious bonuses against fiends and magic, while the pole arm certainly has a major advantage versus crowds of lesser enemies.
It's a tough choice, and I am of the opinion that he carry both.

Yeah, really curious to see if he has to trade in one to get the other or he just didn't think to keep both.
Still, the only bonuses it gives are 2d10 damage, which averages out to 22 damage per round if he uses the Holy Avenger, vs. the 15 damage he can get vs. everyone, including any non fiend/undead minions.

Advantage to saves and magical effects is nifty, but everyone should already be rocking an additional +5 to saves or so from the Paladin already, for which he's losing lots of bonuses from feats he's invested, one of which is now completely thrown away, as well as the inherent bonus reach provides.

7 damage and a minor boost for saves doesn't seem worth it IMO.

[darkrose50]

Hi guys, I'm at a crossroads with my level 14 human vengeance paladin in our campaign. Presently, I'm packing a +3 glaive and the feats polearm master, sentinel, and great weapon master to abuse the lockdown strategy. However, I now have the chance to score a Holy Avenger greatsword, a particularly awesome weapon, but one that doesn't mesh well with some of my feats. I can't repick my feats and the Holy Avenger only comes in the mentioned form. For sake of optimization, do you think I should stick with my glaive or drop it for the Holy Avenger greatsword? Thanks!

Is this what they have the wish spell for?

"I wish my Holy Avenger greatsword was a Holy Avenger glaive."

Just make sure that whatever god what was involved in its creation is okay with your wish.

[Easy_Lee]

Is this what they have the wish spell for?

"I wish my Holy Avenger greatsword was a Holy Avenger glaive."

Just make sure that whatever god what was involved in its creation is okay with your wish.

Depending on the DM, you might be able to simply attach a pole to the hilt and create a particularly unwieldy glaive from it.

Incidentally, this is the second reason why I dislike feats that are specific to particular weapon types.

[Davrix]

I don't see why this is a huge deal

You can and ARE ALLOWED to re-skin any of the magic items in the dmg. it says this in many places. Why does the holy avenger HAVE to be a sword? I would simply as the DM make a glaive around the item because it would fit your play-style and well just make you feel awesome. Now I will make one addition to this statement. It does depend on how you are getting the HA. If its something you find in a dragons hoard then yes it might be a sword. If its meant to be a reward after a heroic deed of kingdom saving proportions then yea I'd re-skin it. If its a holy relic in a temple also I'd probably re-skin it. It would depend largely on the world and lore around what you are doing because yes it is a rather iconic sword but its still not a HUGE deal to just re-skin the thing.

And I nkow some will hate this idea and bash on me for it. To all of you I say Meh :)

[Mikal]

Depending on the DM, you might be able to simply attach a pole to the hilt and create a particularly unwieldy glaive from it.

Incidentally, this is the second reason why I dislike feats that are specific to particular weapon types.


I don't see why this is a huge deal

You can and ARE ALLOWED to re-skin any of the magic items in the dmg. it says this in many places. Why does the holy avenger HAVE to be a sword? I would simply as the DM make a glaive around the item because it would fit your play-style and well just make you feel awesome. Now I will make one addition to this statement. It does depend on how you are getting the HA. If its something you find in a dragons hoard then yes it might be a sword. If its meant to be a reward after a heroic deed of kingdom saving proportions then yea I'd re-skin it. If its a holy relic in a temple also I'd probably re-skin it. It would depend largely on the world and lore around what you are doing because yes it is a rather iconic sword but its still not a HUGE deal to just re-skin the thing.

And I nkow some will hate this idea and bash on me for it. To all of you I say Meh :)



Yeah I know. Having to make decisions sucks amirite

[Dudewithknives]

I don't see why this is a huge deal

You can and ARE ALLOWED to re-skin any of the magic items in the dmg. it says this in many places. Why does the holy avenger HAVE to be a sword? I would simply as the DM make a glaive around the item because it would fit your play-style and well just make you feel awesome. Now I will make one addition to this statement. It does depend on how you are getting the HA. If its something you find in a dragons hoard then yes it might be a sword. If its meant to be a reward after a heroic deed of kingdom saving proportions then yea I'd re-skin it. If its a holy relic in a temple also I'd probably re-skin it. It would depend largely on the world and lore around what you are doing because yes it is a rather iconic sword but its still not a HUGE deal to just re-skin the thing.

And I nkow some will hate this idea and bash on me for it. To all of you I say Meh :)

It has to be a sword because the weapon says it has to be.

Refluffing it as a whole different weapon including different stats and benefits is not refluffing, it ic changing a rule in the game.

Same reason that there is no holy avenger spear.

Now I could see any reasonable dm just making it morph into his preferred weapon when he attuned it, but giving a plot weapon to a player that makes one of his feats useless is a jerk move.

I would love it if any magic weapon could be "reskinned" as any other, but that just makes everyone use the same broken ones.

Nobody will use a scimitar of speed when they can get a rapier of speed or a great axe of speed instead.

How about I make some bracers of crossbowing, since bracers of archer are broken at that price but don't work with crossbows?

Refluffing is for changing looks, not stats and mechanics.

[Bayonet300]

Hypothetically, if I were able to drop Polearm Master and just take an ASI or another feat, would you recommend me sticking with my PAM+sentinel +3 glaive setup or drop it for Holy Avenger?

[Mikal]

Hypothetically, if I were able to drop Polearm Master and just take an ASI or another feat, would you recommend me sticking with my PAM+sentinel +3 glaive setup or drop it for Holy Avenger?

I'd say stick with the Polearm personally.
The Avenger just gives you a small damage increase against two types of enemies since you get so much more damage per hit, making the bonus action guaranteed attack more useful so it's situational, and that plus the advantage on saves doesn't equal the loss of tactical flexibility from becoming a Greatsword user, in my opinion.

But honestly, you should be able to have both. Is there a reason why you can't? Then you have the flexibility plus the clutch advantage the few times you'd need it or extra damage vs. undead/fiends.

[Bayonet300]

I'd say stick with the Polearm personally.
The Avenger just gives you a small damage increase against two types of enemies since you get so much more damage per hit, making the bonus action guaranteed attack more useful so it's situational, and that plus the advantage on saves doesn't equal the loss of tactical flexibility from becoming a Greatsword user, in my opinion.

But honestly, you should be able to have both. Is there a reason why you can't? Then you have the flexibility plus the clutch advantage the few times you'd need it or extra damage vs. undead/fiends.

Honestly, it just boils down to resources. If it taking the Holy Avenger isn't as practical, I can nab a different attunement item. If the glaive isn't the best choice, I can potentially drop my Polearm master feat and grab an ASI or another feat. However, it sounds like you guys are encouraging me to just run both.

[Mikal]

Well that's because you said it was a choice or combo of those two.

You didn't mention you could pick another item in place of the avenger.
So what are all your options exactly?

[Bayonet300]

Well that's because you said it was a choice or combo of those two.

You didn't mention you could pick another item in place of the avenger.
So what are all your options exactly?

This is a character for adventure league; a player's offering to trade me a Holy Avenger for one of my items. To be clear, there are other weapons I could probably get or trade for, but at the moment the +3 Glaive and Holy Avenger are the ones I'm considering.

[Mikal]

This is a character for adventure league; a player's offering to trade me a Holy Avenger for one of my items. To be clear, there are other weapons I could probably get or trade for, but at the moment the +3 Glaive and Holy Avenger are the ones I'm considering.

So no way to actually swap feats around then. Still say keep the glaive

[BobZan]

Don't take Holy Avenger, then.

Your feat combo is already good enough with a +3 Glaive. You better off with something else.