Players Beginning to Frustrate Me . . . Any Advice?

[TeiflingDM]

This issue has been going on for a while now, and admittedly may be partly to blame on me. Maybe I'm being to expecting of my (fairly new) players or being too self conscious about my work. Tried to find threads from people with similar issues, but didn't have much luck. Forgive me if I'm asking a common question. Still learning to navigate everything on the site.

Anyway, here are my issues. I'm a fairly new DM myself. Got an itch to play d&d and got a few people together who seemed interested. I studied the books, and learned as much as I could as to DM semi effectively. Put a bunch of work into my notes and possible plot hooks and etc. I mean I know that that's my job as a DM but my point is that I do try really hard to build cool stuff for my players to do. It actually keeps me up at night, because I want to keep making notes.

The players themselves all picked the game mechanics up pretty quickly and seemed to be enjoying the game. But all they seem to do now is bicker. About everything. One wants to go left and the other wants to go right, and it ends up being an hour of game time wasted because no one can agree on anything.
-Another example of that is I had an NPC give them a messenger hawk in case they needed to contact them, and they argued over what they were going to name it. Well first, they asked if it had a name, and I said sure it's this. And they oh, well that's stupid, we're naming it this instead. Then proceeded to argue about the name of a bird for the next half hour.
-Another time, player A just mentioned to another player about one of the skill checks available to them that they hadn't used (because they almost killed an innocent person), and she started arguing about "let me play how I want. It's my character". Got really angry about it and seemed like it ruined the night for player A, who was just attempting to give a little note of advice.

So there's that. Then on top of all that (and this may just be me being self conscious) they never take anything seriously. Like I said, I put a lot of work into making things interesting for them. It's not that they don't have fun, it just feels like a waste of time for me to spend hours building a story to have them laugh at the details. Like they hear the name of an NPC I made, then purposefully screw the name up, during conversation with said NPC. Like I get that it's all in fun, and that's how they are, but I also don't want to just throw away stuff I've made up because "this NPC no longer takes you seriously and leaves". Maybe I'm just building too serious of a story for them. I just don't like having Bob and Tim give them a quest. It's not . . . D&D feeling enough for me. I feel like they don't play their characters accurately. I mean I don't expect them to go into full on RP mode, but I did expect them to stick to their characters. But I also don't want to punish them for having fun.

On top of all that, they treat it like WoW, and are all just XP and Gold hungry. But when I put them into combat to earn said XP or Gold, they all tune out and then the phones come out or side conversations start, people leave the table, etc. Or once I learned that I was using a rule incorrectly, and after telling the players, "hey my bad, I've been treating this wrong. I think we should change it next game and start doing it right" one of the players got actually angry at me, because I was going to "Nerf her character and make her useless". Even though she refused to ever expend spell slots and only ever uses base level cantrips.

I don't know, after typing this out, maybe I'm just being an ineffective DM. I know the motto seems to be "no D&D is better than bad D&D" but it was my idea to start playing, and no one else is interested in DMing, so I don't want to suddenly force everyone to stop playing. Anybody have any advice or tips?

Also I apologise again, because I'm sure this has probably already been covered. And it also got kind of long...

Anyway, thanks in advance for reading.

[TeiflingDM]

TL;DR - Players argue, bicker and waste time. Never take things seriously. Never play their characters as written. Only want Gold and XP and never pay attention.

[Waterdeep Merch]

It's hard to give advice- your players are weird. Newbies tend to be... quirky, once they realize the amount of freedom that TTRPG's allow for. At least it's nice that they're into it?

Best thing I can say is to try and play into the insanity instead of against it. You're trying to herd cats here. At least you know how to get them to go places; make it plainly obvious that money and killables lie in the dungeon you want them to go into. Try to keep the social aspect of the game to a minimum, because it sounds like this is where they're driving you insane.

You might want to take the Lucky feat. I mean, as a person. You're going to need it.

[Ganymede]

I feel you. I had a derailment in my last game about the order of their objectives that gobbled up a big chunk of the session. They weren't even roleplaying an in-character argument, they were just arguing over "A then B" or "B then A." It was the worst.

I also have one player who plays the game as if she had just saved her progress in Skyrim then screwed around doing whatever weird violence she wants, confident she can reload her progress.

Nothing here helps the OP, though. This is just a gripe.

[KorvinStarmast]

Random encounters of increasing difficulty until you get all hard and then get toward all deadly.
They want WoW?
Give them WoW.

They either rise to the challenge or fail. When they have to rely on each other/work together, this team may gel.
You won't know until you put them under stress.
Raise the bar for them to leap over.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I dunno, it sounds to me like they're maybe not actually that into things anymore but don't want to tell you? They don't seem to be enjoying the roleplaying, and they don't seem to be enjoying the combat, and they don't seem to be enjoying the story? My best thought on how to put it all together is that they want a light, beer-and-pretzel sort of game, while you're trying to present a more serious and immersive experience, and that when combat does come up, it's moving too slowly for them... does that sound like it might be right?

Your first step should be to talk to your group-- ask for feedback on your DMing, try to get them to tell you what you what they're enjoying and not enjoying, raise your concerns about how things are going?

[GlenSmash!]

One of the biggest things I had to learn as a new DM was how to get good at the basic conversation of the game, and splitting spotlight.

Learn to present a Scenario to the party then ask one specific player "What do you do?" then switch between players evenly.

Example:
DM: You come into a village with a few small houses with yellow roofs and green walls reminding you of sunflowers. Bill what do you do?
Bill: I take a closer look at a House
DM: It looks like a simple peasant farm house. Fred, Bill is looking at a Farm house what do you do?
Fred:I set off to the center of town to look for that guy we're supposed to find.
DM: It's a short walk to the center of town. Tom, Bill is looking at a Farmhouse and Fred is walking towards the center of town what do you do?
Tom: I follow Fred, Bill, you coming?
Bill: Sure.

Getting good at running the game this way will cut down on a lot of arguing and table talk, and help make sure each party member gets a time to contribute and shine. I'll warn you though it did not come naturally to me.

As far as the looting I recommend a couple of things.

First, have a Session 0. This is typically held before the first session where you discuss at a high level the campaign, the characters you will be playing and the over tone you would like from the game. This is the best time to say "This isn't WoW you don't need loads of gold and there is no revolving loot train. If you get a Magic sword it will be a rare and awesome item. Maybe unique to the entire game world. Enjoy it."

If you didn't do this at first it's never too late to have this talk.

My second bit of advice is to give out good and meaningful loot! Even if it is just a +1 Longsword don't just say it's a +1 Longsword. Describe the intricate Elven/Dwarven/Ancient workmanship, engravings, and balance the weapon has.

[Unoriginal]

Question 1: have you talked with them about those issues?

If you haven't, you should. See if you can get them to see your points.

Question 2: have you tried to apply in-game consequences for them ****ing around for hours and disrespecting NPCs? or have you given them free passes to do anything and get away with it?

Question 3: have you tried to go "guys, let's move, please. It's only a bird name" or stuff like that?

If you can't make the group work with you for a game you and they like, you should try to find a different group.

[tensai_oni]

On a surface level this sounds like a DM and party mismatch. You want a serious campaign, they want a beer and pretzels style dungeon hack that doesn't take itself so seriously. You have to ask yourself if you're willing to run this style of campaign and still have fun with it. No? Tell them to take things more seriously then. If they won't, don't invite them to the next session. This is your first attempt at DMing with a randomly assembled party. It's not unlikely that your gaming styles simply won't mesh well.

But the constant arguments sound like the players don't mesh well with each other either. Let's run through the situations as you described them and what you could do:

-Taking forever to make a choice: after 5-15 minutes (depending on the situation's importance and complexity) urge them to decide on something. Tell them "guys, this is taking a lot of time and the decision isn't that important, think about it and decide later and for now let's do X". I'm against picking a party leader in most circumstances but maybe ask them if they're willing to nominate one.
-Player gets angry at being offered advice: try to disarm the hostile atmosphere, tell her "we're still learning this, so it's just a reminder of what options are available to you".
-Player accuses you of trying to nerf them: once again, disarm the atmosphere, admit that you just made a mistake since it's your first time - but add that you're not against the party, this is not an adversarial game, you meet to have fun. By the way, is this the same player as before? If so, I sense an attitude problem.
-Players leaving/stopping paying interest when a fight begins: that's inexcusable. Tell them that it's okay to take small breaks, but you're gaming now so you ask them to focus on the game and not on something else. Make sure to let them know that this kind of behavior is disrespectful.

Do note, there is a chance that any of these actions will result in further arguments or one or more players getting angry and exploding in your face. In this case though, it's an early warning that tells you the party would be better off without them. Don't invite them to any future sessions.

[Demonslayer666]

Trust me, you aren't alone in feeling unappreciated. I feel the same from time to time, but in our group we rotate games and game masters, giving each other a break. Since you don't have that, take a break from running your game and play a board game or take a couple weeks off to recharge.

As for bickering, you are in charge. Step in and say, "that's not important, what are you doing next?" Let them be silly for 5 minutes and then get the game back on track. Bickering can also be mitigated by having a party leader that can speak for the party in general. NPC names will never stop being made fun of and dehumanized. "We go talk to whats-her-name" happens all the time.

Give out inspiration like candy when they do something you like. As simple as getting the NPCs name right, to remembering why they are in the dungeon, to doing a little roleplaying.

New players tend to not get overly deep with their characters. Give them some time to grow.

Make some general rules, no phones at the table unless its really important, pay attention to the game and be ready when it's your turn.

[TeiflingDM]

Still not sure how to quote others, so I'll do my best here, but I do agree that they may be losing interest. I had considered that, and that maybe they just don't want to tell me, but I know two of them like playing (gf, aka the confrontational one, and her friend.) My brother also plays as well as another guy. The two girls do most of the scheduling for when we play, and my brother is the one who got us all playing (he's one of the more serious players, gives advice, etc) and I'm pretty sure he's having a good time, besides when he gets yelled at.

Maybe you're right, and we just don't mesh as a party/dm. Sad if it's true, since I'm pretty close with all my players.

Also, it's not so much that they just call them "so and so" or slightly mess up pronouncing names. They actively go out of their way to do it. For example, they met a character named Krea, and constantly refer to her as creat Crayola or Crayon. It was humourous as first, cuz I hadn't thought of it that way, but then it just persisted and turned into a regular part of our games.

Will definitely try to force teamwork though. Maybe the threat of death will help. Fingers crossed.

[Chugger]

Sounds like you have a cluster of spoiled, self-absorbed idiots as players. Welcome to 2017.

As someone who DMs and who plays, if I'm a player and the other players are misbehaving - bickering or overthinking or interrupting the DM or questioning the DM about crap that doesn't matter or w/e - I act as the DM's "shill" so to speak. I step in using whatever "voice" and "persona" I feel is necessary to get success and start "steering" that player toward more successful and less annoying game habits.

It works like this - "Hey, I'm jazzed that you're smart and creative and really into this, but trust me - we don't have enough info yet to choose our path - let's let the DM finish his story - he's telling us what we need to know - and _then_ when we have the full story we can make an even smarter choice." (edit, that's a sample of what I might do if a player is interrupting the DM in a spazzy way and trying to make a choice w/out hearing the whole thing - there is a range of responses to make to other player misconduct or annoying behaviors - and sometimes you gotta try several approaches before you hit on something that is effective with a certain player, that speaks to them - as long as you're not lording over them - as long you're approaching from "I have your best interest at heart" and are being nice but firm, you stand a chance at making progress).

Having a player work sort of like a "sergeant" or controller for marginal players takes a crapton of load off the DM's shoulders - lets the DM focus on running the game - and because I'm a fellow player I'm not being authoritarian - I'm not laying down the law - I'm a peer - I'm one of the gang - and I'm trying to gently and effectively steer them so they behave better. From a standpoint of "this is really in your own best interest to do it this way, not that way" - and "no don't feel bad - you're very creative - I like your character - we all have stuff to learn - I learn something new every time I play." It's all for the good of the party and so on.

Do you have a player who can help you with this? Or are they all putzes? If so dump 'em or ... I dunno. They sound hopeless - the way you describe them.

[Chugger]

Still not sure how to quote others, so I'll do my best here, but I do agree that they may be losing interest. I had considered that, and that maybe they just don't want to tell me, but I know two of them like playing (gf, aka the confrontational one, and her friend.) My brother also plays as well as another guy. The two girls do most of the scheduling for when we play, and my brother is the one who got us all playing (he's one of the more serious players, gives advice, etc) and I'm pretty sure he's having a good time, besides when he gets yelled at.

Maybe you're right, and we just don't mesh as a party/dm. Sad if it's true, since I'm pretty close with all my players.

Also, it's not so much that they just call them "so and so" or slightly mess up pronouncing names. They actively go out of their way to do it. For example, they met a character named Krea, and constantly refer to her as creat Crayola or Crayon. It was humourous as first, cuz I hadn't thought of it that way, but then it just persisted and turned into a regular part of our games.

Will definitely try to force teamwork though. Maybe the threat of death will help. Fingers crossed.

What are you doing to keep them interested? Are you using "hooks"?

You have to be raising questions in their minds and make them want things - these can also be called set-ups, and are often the rumors they hear when talking to NPCs or reading fliers on a bulletin board or w/e. Do you pay-off set-ups enough to keep them feeling rewarded? I.e. do you have a string of connected set-ups and pay-offs so that they feel they're making progress and learning as they go through the adventure - or do you just have them invading the monster apartment dwelling and kicking down doors and murdering whatever random monster that is there for no good reason and taking it's gold and going down the hall to endlessly repeat this soon to be boring action?

Tell a _story_ with your adventures. Give them choice, but if you make a set-up so intriguing, they'll fall for it - they'll really want to know where that's going to lead and how it's going to pay off. This is hard, by the way, but it's what all really really top shelf DMs do, at least as far as I've observed - and I started playing a long time ago. Good luck with this.

(edit if they're mispronouncing names for fun, you can't fight that - have NPCs mispronounce their names sometimes - a healthy amount of banter and meta-joking is not bad usually - see if your brother can help you as more of a leader on the party side, help you by guiding them gently and nicely toward better player behavior - and if you hook them enough and make them really wanna find out something, they'll possibly fall in line on their own, cuz they wanna know - and maybe they'll realize the bickering is in the way of finding out something they gotta know)

[TeiflingDM]

My brother is a player. Hes used to 3.5 but came to our 5e game since his group split. So he could probably hold that position, but he's also the one that butts heads with the newer players. Or more gets dragged into conflict for trying to keep things on track or offering advice.

Sucks that a lot of tips are that my players suck. Lol was hoping for a cure all I guess. Anyone got a wish scroll handy?

And yeah I try to use good plot hooks. But I suppose that's kind of subjective since I'm really the only one in the group with any interest in politics and military strategy. Everyone else in the party is kind of casual gamer/stonery/nerdy types... Which typing that out, may be why we don't mesh well... Not to say I'm not also kind of "nerdy" (in the politest sense of the term btw). I guess we all just have different interests. Isn't going on mystical adventures supposed to bring people closer together? Lol

[Asmotherion]

The problem is a group operational problem.

Sit with your players. Have a discussion about what you expect on your tables, and what you don't. Ask them what they expect from you. Are they on board for a serious RPG Campain, or do they want a more relaxed hack and slash combat oriented game that doesn't focus that much on the story. If the latter, you may be making too much plot for nothing; Everyone must be on board for the same D&D experiance, and this is usually made sure in session 0.

Once those discussions are made, you make arangments for some ground rules;
-Rule 0, on top of all rules, when you say something you are always right. It saves game time. If anyone argues with it, start giving warnings, and if they continue, xp penalty. You must be in control of your table as a DM, or things won't go smoothly.

Second of all, actually role play your characters. If someone starts making a joke about a character's name, take it as an in game insult. Act according to the character's alignment and power. If a quest giver, they loose the quest, and face the concequances. Try to always have dual adventure hooks, one good and one bad, and force the "bad adventure hook" on them if they fail to take the good one.

Example: They wake up in the morning at their inn, and notice that all their money is gone. One random player gets a note saying "If you want your money back, meet me behind the graveyard at midnight. Come alone." From that point on, the quest has been given. They can either go alone (obviously it won't end up well, as the fight is intended for a group fight), ignore the message and go all together (the messager won't show up and disapear with the money), or try to ambush him by going alone, and the rest of the party following at least 60 feet behind (the limit of darkvision) (Necromancer with twice the party members in skeletons and zombies as minions).

If they try something wrong, they fail. Failure is a valuable experiance of D&D. If they try something out of the Box, you don't change your variables, just see if it works with what you already have prepared.

[willdaBEAST]

I started DMing early last year and experienced a fair amount of what you have been dealing with.

Some things that have helped:

-Roleplaying doesn't have to be in the first person, if your players aren't comfortable voicing or speaking as a character, encourage them to describe their actions or intentions. Instead of "I roll insight, is this NPC lying?", push for a more theatrical description, "*character name*'s eyes narrow and he/she slowly moves to stand between the NPC and the door. He/she starts paying extremely close attention to the NPCs tone and mannerisms." As the DM you should prompt when to roll dice and let the player know what kind of check or save is appropriate.

-Session 0 is critical. I had 2 players join mid-campaign and I think that created problems. You all need to be on the same page. I was having some of your same thoughts, "I put all this time and effort to build a world for them, but they don't appreciate it!" My solution was spending less time prepping and challenging myself to improvise more. New DMs tend to over prepare. I also lowered my expectations and adjusted the tone of the campaign to be a bit more lighthearted. I came from watching DnD streams before ever playing, so I couldn't help but compare my group's disfunction to the games designed for entertainment and that's not very fair. Especially not for new players. Since you're already running the campaign, set aside time to talk to your players collectively or individually. Ask them what they like, don't like, what they want out of the game, etc.

-As GlenSmash! pointed out, give each player a chance to shine. Not only in letting them react independently to whatever scene you're describing, but find ways in which the world responds to each character. If one PC is constantly trash talking every helpful NPC, have communities start to shun them. If they can't get the shop keeper's name straight, have the prices go up for them. Don't make it contentious and I wouldn't go overboard in punishments, but you can have your world push back. New players are like children, they want to test the boundaries. It might be more productive to reinforce positive behavior through giving out inspiration or helpful NPCs providing a critical warning about an ambush or something.

-A good campaign is a collaborative one and that doesn't mean forcing the players accommodating your story, it works both ways. There could be a thread somewhere from one of your players, "OMG this campaign is on rails, I have no control over anything! The DM takes all his silly names so seriously!" Try to see it from their perspective and find a comfortable middle ground.

[TeiflingDM]

I don't force them into any story arcs. Mainly ive been letting them do as they please, and just throwing things in as they go, to try to keep things interesting. They're still pretty low level, so I haven't introduced any major plot themes yet. Well actually I just started giving hints at one, and was going to use a players backstory (part of which is that they don't remember their past) to build a concept behind it. Nothing character changing, they were just a bit lazy with backstory, and I figured I might try to get them hyped up about "discovering their past". We'll see.

As for my stories, I don't get bent out of shape with my players. Usually I just let things unfold how they do. Which probably hasn't helped the issue. I don't recall us having a session 0, besides the time I spent helping people roll characters. Probably would have helped too.

And I by no means expect them to completely act in character. I try to voice NPC's to an extent, I just mean that they don't act as their character would. Example, one claims to be a good character, but threatened to murder someone locked in a cage if he didn't give them what they wanted. And this was an obviously innocent person. It's things like that. I try not to railroad them, but since they don't think in character, the time I don't spend keeping them on track is filled with side talk and YouTube. So I almost have to rail them a little or else nothing gets accomplished. Maybe not rail, but urge them forward.

That's where the fights usually happen is when I give them options to do things. Like the path A path B choice.

As for letting players shine, I try to do that in every game. Any criticals or Overkill type situations, I usually let them explain an OP way they'd like to finish off an enemy (within reason). Kind of Mercer style I guess, but more frequent. And they've all got backstory stuff that I plan to implement (again, nothing that would change their characters) to help them become attached to their characters instead of just playing it because that's what they're stuck with.

[Grod_The_Giant]

the time I don't spend keeping them on track is filled with side talk and YouTube. So I almost have to rail them a little or else nothing gets accomplished. Maybe not rail, but urge them forward.
It sounds like at least some of your players don't want to be there, but are persisting because they like the company or don't want to offend you. A simple "hey, so we've been playing for a while, how do we feel about continuing?" conversation might be the way to go-- better to wind up with a small group of motivated players (your brother and the girls you mentioned?) than a larger one that's giving you grief.

[TeiflingDM]

Yeah, I suppose that's probably the best way forward. I told them all at the start to give me honest feedback, but I'm not so great at that myself, so I can see how they would want to avoid hurting my feelings. Not that it would, I could understand if I was not up to par. I'd just like to know what went wrong or what could have gone better. You can't really improve if you don't know what you were doing wrong.

Think I will go ahead and have a sit down with them soon. Hopefully we can work to resolve the issues at hand. If not I guess it's back to crappy drinking games and movie nights. Oh well.

Also thank you for all the replies. A lot of awesome advice. I really appreciate it, even if it might end my short DMing career a bit earlier than I had planned. *shrug* Guess it happens sometimes.

Regardless, I think I'm still going to gather notes. I love the content I've made so far, and it doesn't hurt to have it for a rainy day. Might give me some time to polish them up and make them into something better.

[Unoriginal]

They're new players. You should probably give them a direction to go (ex: toward the kobold caves of Bogodor), and give them an incentive for doing this (ex: they're hired to get the magical fiddle that's kept there).

If you leave them in an open world and tell them "what do you want to do", they'll do what they want to do. Which is mostly making fun of NPCs and bickering, from what you tell us.

[TeiflingDM]

Well I haven't so much left them to their own devices. My brother ran a small tutorial dungeon for us, then I took over. I went so far as to order "antiqued" paper and I printed a bounty notice that I actually mailed to each player before our first session. Kind of an introduction to their adventure. They were tasked with finding and killing or capturing the members of a small bandit group in the forests near a city. Turns out the bandits were working for a cult attempting to raise a (slightly nerfed) shadow demon. From there, they went on to compete in an arena of sorts, and from there they were hired by a band of essentially "witchers" to hunt down some werewolves. I give them things to do, I just let them carry it out how they want and try to make up the rest as they go. I put in effort for possible scenarios and encounters, but for the most part, they have the control.

I give them information, try to keep them hooked with combat and other "surprise" encounters. I've even thrown in some "popular" culture references to try to keep them engaged in something at least somewhat familiar.

I think the most interested they ever were was in a bandit from the first "quest" that they decided to spare and let go after knee capping him with a crossbow. He was named Kieth and they still constantly try to find him whenever they go into different towns. I had plans to flesh him out a bit more and make him a normal encounter since they seemed to enjoy checking in on him.

[Malifice]

This issue has been going on for a while now, and admittedly may be partly to blame on me. Maybe I'm being to expecting of my (fairly new) players or being too self conscious about my work. Tried to find threads from people with similar issues, but didn't have much luck. Forgive me if I'm asking a common question. Still learning to navigate everything on the site.

Anyway, here are my issues. I'm a fairly new DM myself. Got an itch to play d&d and got a few people together who seemed interested. I studied the books, and learned as much as I could as to DM semi effectively. Put a bunch of work into my notes and possible plot hooks and etc. I mean I know that that's my job as a DM but my point is that I do try really hard to build cool stuff for my players to do. It actually keeps me up at night, because I want to keep making notes.

The players themselves all picked the game mechanics up pretty quickly and seemed to be enjoying the game. But all they seem to do now is bicker. About everything. One wants to go left and the other wants to go right, and it ends up being an hour of game time wasted because no one can agree on anything.
-Another example of that is I had an NPC give them a messenger hawk in case they needed to contact them, and they argued over what they were going to name it. Well first, they asked if it had a name, and I said sure it's this. And they oh, well that's stupid, we're naming it this instead. Then proceeded to argue about the name of a bird for the next half hour.
-Another time, player A just mentioned to another player about one of the skill checks available to them that they hadn't used (because they almost killed an innocent person), and she started arguing about "let me play how I want. It's my character". Got really angry about it and seemed like it ruined the night for player A, who was just attempting to give a little note of advice.

Expect arguing. As a team based game, they will discuss things, and rarely come to agreement straight away.

Give them some time to make up their minds, and then ask them what they're doing. Call for a vote if they still cant answer.


So there's that. Then on top of all that (and this may just be me being self conscious) they never take anything seriously. Like I said, I put a lot of work into making things interesting for them. It's not that they don't have fun, it just feels like a waste of time for me to spend hours building a story to have them laugh at the details. Like they hear the name of an NPC I made, then purposefully screw the name up, during conversation with said NPC. Like I get that it's all in fun, and that's how they are, but I also don't want to just throw away stuff I've made up because "this NPC no longer takes you seriously and leaves". Maybe I'm just building too serious of a story for them. I just don't like having Bob and Tim give them a quest. It's not . . . D&D feeling enough for me. I feel like they don't play their characters accurately. I mean I don't expect them to go into full on RP mode, but I did expect them to stick to their characters. But I also don't want to punish them for having fun.


Fine. They want to make fun of NPCs.

Just make sure that decision has consequences (the NPC refuses to help them).


On top of all that, they treat it like WoW, and are all just XP and Gold hungry. But when I put them into combat to earn said XP or Gold, they all tune out and then the phones come out or side conversations start, people leave the table, etc. Or once I learned that I was using a rule incorrectly, and after telling the players, "hey my bad, I've been treating this wrong. I think we should change it next game and start doing it right" one of the players got actually angry at me, because I was going to "Nerf her character and make her useless". Even though she refused to ever expend spell slots and only ever uses base level cantrips.

The player may have a point. If your previous ruling resulted in her designing her PC a certain way, allow her to rebuild the character.

If she still complains, ask her to stop. If she still complains, uninvite her from the table.

With combat, place every Player on a strict 3 second time limit for their turns. If after 3 seconds they havent declared actions, their turn ends and they take the dodge action.

Those phones will be put away quicker than you can say Boo.

Remember; part of your job as DM is to manage the players. Like a manager at work. Dont be afraid to be assertive.

[Jerrykhor]

Like they hear the name of an NPC I made, then purposefully screw the name up, during conversation with said NPC.

This reminds me, my table did it too at one point. An NPC kid was named Worgaz, we called him Worgasm. A very beautiful lady called Natyssa, we call her Nut-teaser. My DM just sighed and said, 'I need to remember to read out loud the names next time'.:smallbiggrin:

[JakOfAllTirades]

Your players aren't taking you or your game seriously, and this simply will not stand!

First of all, this game is supposed to fun for everyone, including the GM. You might want to let them know you're not having a good time.

If that doesn't work, then just casually inform them that "Guys, tonight's game is going to get more serious." Don't explain how, just let it go at that.

Then start increasing the difficulty, slowly. And keep ramping it up until they know you're serious.

When their characters are at 1hp, nearly out of spells, potions, ammo, and everything else, they'll start taking things seriously.

They'll probably have a really good game, too.

Oh, and try not to TPK their sorry butts.

[BobZan]

Put some NPC with weirder names and make your NPCs start screwing with your PCs names. This isn't a heavy issue. If they call the NPC for a different name, let him correct them.

If they disrespect anyone, think as how he would react to that. "He turn around and leave." "Ok, Fred what you gonna do?". Let them realise that the flow also depends on them. With some frustration they will learn. If they are in to play some D&D, they'll learn how to properly behave and that it isn't a video game.

About rules: before next session sit with them and talk about it. Something like: 'since we don't know ALL the rules, sometimes we'll figure that we're doing this or that the 'wrong' way, but I'd like to play the game by design. If we start a session using a rule the 'wrong' way, we'll use it like that that day, but afterwards I'll explain how it properly works, for future sessions, ok?"

[CircleOfTheRock]

This issue has been going on for a while now, and admittedly may be partly to blame on me. Maybe I'm being to expecting of my (fairly new) players or being too self conscious about my work. Tried to find threads from people with similar issues, but didn't have much luck. Forgive me if I'm asking a common question. Still learning to navigate everything on the site.

Anyway, here are my issues. I'm a fairly new DM myself. Got an itch to play d&d and got a few people together who seemed interested. I studied the books, and learned as much as I could as to DM semi effectively. Put a bunch of work into my notes and possible plot hooks and etc. I mean I know that that's my job as a DM but my point is that I do try really hard to build cool stuff for my players to do. It actually keeps me up at night, because I want to keep making notes.

The players themselves all picked the game mechanics up pretty quickly and seemed to be enjoying the game. But all they seem to do now is bicker. About everything. One wants to go left and the other wants to go right, and it ends up being an hour of game time wasted because no one can agree on anything.
-Another example of that is I had an NPC give them a messenger hawk in case they needed to contact them, and they argued over what they were going to name it. Well first, they asked if it had a name, and I said sure it's this. And they oh, well that's stupid, we're naming it this instead. Then proceeded to argue about the name of a bird for the next half hour.
-Another time, player A just mentioned to another player about one of the skill checks available to them that they hadn't used (because they almost killed an innocent person), and she started arguing about "let me play how I want. It's my character". Got really angry about it and seemed like it ruined the night for player A, who was just attempting to give a little note of advice.

So there's that. Then on top of all that (and this may just be me being self conscious) they never take anything seriously. Like I said, I put a lot of work into making things interesting for them. It's not that they don't have fun, it just feels like a waste of time for me to spend hours building a story to have them laugh at the details. Like they hear the name of an NPC I made, then purposefully screw the name up, during conversation with said NPC. Like I get that it's all in fun, and that's how they are, but I also don't want to just throw away stuff I've made up because "this NPC no longer takes you seriously and leaves". Maybe I'm just building too serious of a story for them. I just don't like having Bob and Tim give them a quest. It's not . . . D&D feeling enough for me. I feel like they don't play their characters accurately. I mean I don't expect them to go into full on RP mode, but I did expect them to stick to their characters. But I also don't want to punish them for having fun.

On top of all that, they treat it like WoW, and are all just XP and Gold hungry. But when I put them into combat to earn said XP or Gold, they all tune out and then the phones come out or side conversations start, people leave the table, etc. Or once I learned that I was using a rule incorrectly, and after telling the players, "hey my bad, I've been treating this wrong. I think we should change it next game and start doing it right" one of the players got actually angry at me, because I was going to "Nerf her character and make her useless". Even though she refused to ever expend spell slots and only ever uses base level cantrips.

I don't know, after typing this out, maybe I'm just being an ineffective DM. I know the motto seems to be "no D&D is better than bad D&D" but it was my idea to start playing, and no one else is interested in DMing, so I don't want to suddenly force everyone to stop playing. Anybody have any advice or tips?

Also I apologise again, because I'm sure this has probably already been covered. And it also got kind of long...

Anyway, thanks in advance for reading.
I've had this kind of group before... (In fact, we sort of ironed it out of them, and now they're my regular group). So my advice is this, at least for the lower part:

Get them to take you seriously. You, as a DM, clearly do a fair bit of work for your players, and they don't take it seriously, or get the effort you put into it. So you need to, (or, at least, this was my experience), make sure they know that you do a lot of preparing for this, and you're quite annoyed at the way they're treating it. Perhaps so annoyed that you might stop running this for them.

And then tell them to remember, after you've hit them with that hammer, that the goal, of all this, is fun. That the reason they're here, and the reason you're doing this, is fun; you don't get together to annoy the heck out of each other; the goal is fun...

If they don't get that, though, you may have to drop them as a group. It happens, occasionally. Well, that's my twenty cents.

[Azgeroth]

how are you running the sessions??

what i mean by that is, is each session its own self contained adventure, essentially a series of one shots, or are you running multi-session modules??

how much of your sessions is spent on each pillar? exploration / social / combat. and which players(characters) are most active in which.

speak with the players, you might find that actually they are invested in your campaign, and all the name calling, fun poking, arguing and tantrums is just how they are. ask what they enjoy, why do they love kieth so much? they might not even know.

do try and remember, all the stuff you prep, create, and make is for your players, its not yours, its everyones. if they don't like it, its not your fault, and they are not bad people. it takes time to figure out what it is a group of players want from a game, and compromise on what they will accept for the sake of the group.

[Rhedyn]

This issue has been going on for a while now, and admittedly may be partly to blame on me. Maybe I'm being to expecting of my (fairly new) players or being too self conscious about my work. Tried to find threads from people with similar issues, but didn't have much luck. Forgive me if I'm asking a common question. Still learning to navigate everything on the site.

Anyway, here are my issues. I'm a fairly new DM myself. Got an itch to play d&d and got a few people together who seemed interested. I studied the books, and learned as much as I could as to DM semi effectively. Put a bunch of work into my notes and possible plot hooks and etc. I mean I know that that's my job as a DM but my point is that I do try really hard to build cool stuff for my players to do. It actually keeps me up at night, because I want to keep making notes.

The players themselves all picked the game mechanics up pretty quickly and seemed to be enjoying the game. But all they seem to do now is bicker. About everything. One wants to go left and the other wants to go right, and it ends up being an hour of game time wasted because no one can agree on anything.
-Another example of that is I had an NPC give them a messenger hawk in case they needed to contact them, and they argued over what they were going to name it. Well first, they asked if it had a name, and I said sure it's this. And they oh, well that's stupid, we're naming it this instead. Then proceeded to argue about the name of a bird for the next half hour.
-Another time, player A just mentioned to another player about one of the skill checks available to them that they hadn't used (because they almost killed an innocent person), and she started arguing about "let me play how I want. It's my character". Got really angry about it and seemed like it ruined the night for player A, who was just attempting to give a little note of advice.

So there's that. Then on top of all that (and this may just be me being self conscious) they never take anything seriously. Like I said, I put a lot of work into making things interesting for them. It's not that they don't have fun, it just feels like a waste of time for me to spend hours building a story to have them laugh at the details. Like they hear the name of an NPC I made, then purposefully screw the name up, during conversation with said NPC. Like I get that it's all in fun, and that's how they are, but I also don't want to just throw away stuff I've made up because "this NPC no longer takes you seriously and leaves". Maybe I'm just building too serious of a story for them. I just don't like having Bob and Tim give them a quest. It's not . . . D&D feeling enough for me. I feel like they don't play their characters accurately. I mean I don't expect them to go into full on RP mode, but I did expect them to stick to their characters. But I also don't want to punish them for having fun.

On top of all that, they treat it like WoW, and are all just XP and Gold hungry. But when I put them into combat to earn said XP or Gold, they all tune out and then the phones come out or side conversations start, people leave the table, etc. Or once I learned that I was using a rule incorrectly, and after telling the players, "hey my bad, I've been treating this wrong. I think we should change it next game and start doing it right" one of the players got actually angry at me, because I was going to "Nerf her character and make her useless". Even though she refused to ever expend spell slots and only ever uses base level cantrips.

I don't know, after typing this out, maybe I'm just being an ineffective DM. I know the motto seems to be "no D&D is better than bad D&D" but it was my idea to start playing, and no one else is interested in DMing, so I don't want to suddenly force everyone to stop playing. Anybody have any advice or tips?

Also I apologise again, because I'm sure this has probably already been covered. And it also got kind of long...

Anyway, thanks in advance for reading.
Party will bicker, this is role-playing, let it happen.

Players mess up names, the characters don't have to.

As for the other complaints, I would fault 5e more than you. An argument about skills? Well skills aren't spelled out and players really don't know what they can do with them or how effectively.
You spend a lot of time prepping, but feel player investment doesn't match up? Maybe the game is taking too long to prep.
People being bored in combat? Well I personally think 5e combat is both overly long and boring.

My suggestion? Try Savage Worlds with the fantasy companion ($20 total for both PDFs) or with Hellfrost essentials from the current Bundle of Holding deal ($26.12 for a lot of content. The Bestiary and player's guide have most of the crunch).

[Asmotherion]

Party will bicker, this is role-playing, let it happen.

Players mess up names, the characters don't have to.

As for the other complaints, I would fault 5e more than you. An argument about skills? Well skills aren't spelled out and players really don't know what they can do with them or how effectively.
You spend a lot of time prepping, but feel player investment doesn't match up? Maybe the game is taking too long to prep.
People being bored in combat? Well I personally think 5e combat is both overly long and boring.

My suggestion? Try Savage Worlds with the fantasy companion ($20 total for both PDFs) or with Hellfrost essentials from the current Bundle of Holding deal ($26.12 for a lot of content. The Bestiary and player's guide have most of the crunch).

Honestly man, how did you even come to the conclusion that it's 5e's fault? Or are you just promoting savage worlds for some obscure reason...? O_O

[Rhedyn]

Honestly man, how did you even come to the conclusion that it's 5e's fault? Our group had similar problems, but only with 5e not PF or Savage Worlds.

Sometimes the switch would be with the same GM, campaign, and players.

So yeah, I'm going to blame 5e for some of his problems when it aligns with my experience.

[JakOfAllTirades]

Honestly man, how did you even come to the conclusion that it's 5e's fault? Or are you just promoting savage worlds for some obscure reason...? O_O

Savage Worlds would definitely reduce the GM's workload. Ease of game prep is one of its best features. The rest rest will have to be worked out at the table.

[jaappleton]

Sounds like nobody knew quite what to expect when venturing into D&D.

Which is fine. It happens. And it can be fixed.

Next session is Session Zero.

What is the game? How is the game run? What's YOUR game about? Explanation that D&D is a cooperative game; Its fine for characters to disagree, but halting the game outright and devolving into players bickering is something to avoid, and ruins everyones fun. And if you're laying out obvious plot hooks and the players purposely turn away from them to focus on inane things like "Screw that werewolf situation, we're going to become fishermen! HOW DO WE CATCH CARP?!", its time for a chat. The players have to work with you a bit.

So everyone needs to move forward with an understanding that its a COOPERATIVE game.

And unfortunately, I do need to state this: No D&D is, in fact, better than bad D&D.

[Unoriginal]

Savage Worlds would definitely reduce the GM's workload. Ease of game prep is one of its best features. The rest rest will have to be worked out at the table.

From the OP, I get the impression it's not the GM's workload is inherently too big, just that OP is so invested they takes a lot more notes than what would be necessary.

[ErHo]

Hit them with a random encounter when they are wasting time over details like NPC renames and left or right, etc.

You may need to railroad them and offer less choices. Take the sandbox away until/if they get focused.

Be open with them about the time sink and your efforts, and hope for the best.

I've always had trouble keeping people on task at the table.

Try suggesting the players themselves vote for the best player of the night(creativity, focus and good sport are the qualifiers) for a XP bonus.

My groups have usually responded well to this, and definitely helped them pay attention more.

Remember;
Be honest, dont bitch. DMs will always put more into the game than players... thats our curse and blessing.

[JakOfAllTirades]

From the OP, I get the impression it's not the GM's workload is inherently too big, just that OP is so invested they takes a lot more notes than what would be necessary.

From the original post, I wasn't sure. But yes, if he can reduce his workload without changing systems, that works too.

[ErHo]

From the OP, I get the impression it's not the GM's workload is inherently too big, just that OP is so invested they takes a lot more notes than what would be necessary.

I agree.

DM wisdom is to use random tables or just get used to winging it if the group goes somewhere unexpected.

[Wampyr]

I had all the same problems when I started DMing a game for new players. I eventually scrapped the campaign and told them we were going to start a new one.

The new campaign had no classes and only humans as a playable race. It was set in Russia during the 1500s and had them facing a powerful and elusive threat. The lack of XP, gold, and other fluff helped them focus on what I think are the more important parts of the game: Comradery and Story.

I was really surprised at how well it worked. Of course I had one who didn’t take on as well as the others, but still it helped him.

Now we play all the time (with regular rules) and at first glance you wouldn’t be able to tell them apart from veteran players.

[Loengrimm]

Jumping a bit late into this, and sorry if I cover something someone else has, I didn't read EVERY response.

First thing to note is that typically the DM is a thankless job. It's hands down the most work and can very easily have all the fun taken out of it. I DM'd an FF D&D style game for about 5 sessions before my group of very witty, sarcastic, ******* friends ruined it for me. I've also played with DMs who's styles didn't mesh well with the group or who were more interested in the super powerful NPCs that they can custom build because they can bend the rules, rather than focusing on the group of players and their goals and objectives. DM'ing is VERY hard, VERY time-consuming, and can be frustrating beyond description. It can also be TONS of fun, and I really hope it turns from the former to the latter for you.

A few things I can advise, and again, forgive me if these have been said, but I would HIGHLY suggest catering to your audience. It's great that you make up these good story components, that you NAME NPCs that give quests, those are good things, but some groups really only care for the comabt. So give them combat. Give them so much combat they BEG to have a session without it. And ramp it up, MAKE them rely on each others strengths and weaknesses. Someone else said give them moments to shine, and I would recommend giving them all their OWN moment. Make a fight that you know one player is going to be ungodly in, and then the next fight, make them less effective. For example, rogues do high single target dmg, so one fight, make it one big monster with a massive HP pool. Casters are best at laying down AoEs, so the next fight, make it a ridiculous amount of low HP monsters, like a swarm of goblins or something, so the rogue 1 shots each one, but his dmg is basically wasted, whereas the sorc/wizard takes out a group of 5 in 1 round with the flick of his wrist.

I would also suggest the easiest way to rein in their behavior is to punish and reward things accordingly. You want them to RP more? Give them rewards for doing it. Bonus XP each session for the best RP'er to get them to start, and/or anyone who RP's consistent with their character gets bonus XP. Punish them for not paying attention in combat by limiting the time they have to do things. Each round is about 6 seconds, so if they hesitate, they don't get to do anything. 6 seconds of inaction is realistic (distracted or panicked), but 1 round of not doing anything is impactful. I do want to caution that rewarding and punishing things is hard to do right, as you may piss off some of your players, but I would still suggest trying it, see if it curbs the bad behavior and encourages the good.

Also, you're basically the god of their universe. You can put your foot down and insist on a thing happening or not happening. If they can't decide on a plan of action in real time, force them into in the game. "As you sit at camp, discussing the best plan of action to take to ambush the highwaymen, your voices carried on the wind, and the tables have turned. The highwaymen were able to find your camp, and now you're being ambushed." There's a bit of disconnect sometimes, the groups I play with have these same problems. The campaign I'm currently playing, our ranger discusses tactics in between everyone's turns, telling us who we should attack or who he's going to attack. So our DM made him use up his turn based on how much he talked when it wasn't his turn. "Your turn is spent explaining your tactics to the group, which takes about 2 seconds, you no longer get a (insert turn component)." He's had him use whole turns up with this, he very quickly curbed his discussion of battle tactics outside of his turn.

If they only care about xp and loot, give them interesting stuff. Magical swords are rare, but there are plenty of uncommon items that have magical effects. Have them find lots of single use items, TONS of potions with limited effects exist in this universe. And there's lots of things you can give them that help for the RP aspect of the game, give them those items to encourage them to RP more. It may not work, but they get a reward, it's their choice not to make the most of said reward if that's how they choose to play. Also on the note of magical gear, everyone has a concept of what they're building towards, so incetivize the behavior you want with the proper rewards. If they delve into their characters and go on a long quest that resolves something personal to their character, the reward is something that helps them realize their final "build". Or if it doesn't unbalance things, offer them feats for completing quests in a certain way (i.e. siding with faction A gives X, faction B gives Y), so now they have something to build with that they weren't expecting.

It's all about using the tools at your disposal. And since you are basically God in that respect, you have EVERY tool at your disposal. Experiment, see what works, what doesn't, and some of these things may not work on the group, but an individual. The idea is to get them to play in a manner that makes it fun for them, and NOT a chore for you. As long as those 2 goals are met, whatever method it takes to achieve that makes perfect sense to me.

[furby076]

Make a dungeon with a real world timer. Bickering wastes time in the dungeon. Explaining once = free; explaining twice continues the counter. What happens as time passes? Monsters arrive, heal, prepare. Traps reset. Trying to save someone before they are sacrificed...whelp, you got 2 hours or they die and something bad happens.

Put them under time pressure, which does happen in WOW raids.

[polymphus]

There's a lot of good advice in this thread about keeping them on track etc (and that's much more on them than you) but on the point of them not taking it seriously

well-

that happens. The banter and goofing off are big parts of this game and pushing back against it is gonna hurt the experience for a lot of people. D&D is a social experience, and a big part of that social game is cracking jokes and messing around.

My only real suggestion there is to let them get it out of their system during noncritical moments -- encourage goofing off during slower and easier parts of the game so they're much more likely to pay attention when you need them to.

Crack jokes with them. Give a random shopkeeper an intentionally goofy name so they can riff on it. Emphasise some low-level NPC rolling a critfail and doing something silly. Then, when you need them to be serious, stop joking, change your descriptions up to emphasise urgency and danger, play that critfail up as a nasty, ugly thing: consciously or subconsciously, they'll pick up the shift in tone and they tend to shift their own tone accordingly.