Venomfire Fleshraker isn't automatically broken like many have claimed.

[Endarire]

Greetings, all!

I'm well aware of the combination of using the fleshraker dinosaur (Monster Manual III 40) with the spell venomfire (Serpent Kingdoms 158), especially via an animal companion (since fleshrakers can be gotten at Druid4) or via Wild Shape.

Let's agree that, normally, this combo can be quite powerful. Many - including me - have understood its potential. Sometimes, it has been disruptive to the gaming experiences of many. Let's also seriously consider its weaknesses.

First is house ruling or banning. The GM is within his right to do so.

Second is acid resistance or immunity. A small number of targets are just immune to acid, and the spell energy immunity (Spell Compendium 80) is a 24 hour buff on the subject touched which negates HP damage from one energy type (acid, fire, electricity, cold, or sonic). It's a Cleric6, Druid6, and Sor/Wizard7 spell.

Third is likely the biggest factor - melee accuracy vs. AC. In fleshraker form, a Druid's melee accuracy with primary attacks (claws) is 3 from base STR + BAB + items + buffs + misc and at 5 less accuracy per attack for secondary attacks (bite, rake, and tail). Druids have some accuracy buffs (bull's strength being likely the most obvious for 1 min/caster level and bite of the wereX from Spell Compendium also being helpful for 1 round/caster level), but most these self-buffs are short duration. If you want something longer-lasting, you'd need to multiclass (generally unwise), be in a different form (meaning likely no venomfire) or have another source of buffs like another party member (which isn't guaranteed).

Fourth and likely finally, you're still dealing HP damage in melee, normally as a Medium creature. Without other buffs, items, etc., you're still a fairly nimble 20 AC creature eating face. Barkskin exists for small amounts of AC. Luminous armor works if you're OK shining with the radiance of the sun, possibly aggroing the entire area. With Natural Spell or a means of casting, you can still cast other spells if you have spell slots and are unhampered otherwise. Being in fleshraker form also means you aren't simultaneously being in flight form or a notably stronger form for higher accuracy, larger reach, etc. Animal growth won't work on you if you Wild Shaped due to rules since you're still a member of your original creature type (likely Humanoid).

[Hellpyre]

So...what are you arguing exactly? It's a very potent combination when it comes online, but attacking isn't casting spells or summoning minions. It's not a suprise that it isn't the maximal value you can possibly get, but it is powerful, with parts that are synergystic but function on their own. No one argues that it does more raw damage than, say, an ubercharger of the same level. Rather, its power comes from the minimal investment it requires.

[Endarire]

The argument is as the title says. Various sources I've noticed have quickly dismissed the combo as broken or unusable, and it's potent if the GM lets it be, but it isn't the easy auto-win many led me to believe.

[eggynack]

I'm not sure why you open up talking about how you can toss this on yourself or the animal companion, and then exclusively talk about it in the context of tossing it on yourself. The last issue, that being a fleshraker and eating face takes away your actions, removes other more utility filled options, and requires some defensive buffs, disappears when you consider the spell in the context of an animal companion. Also, a fleshraker companion can be hit by animal growth, even as you cannot be (without work). The first issue obviously has zero applicability regarding the brokenness of the game object itself, so I feel it's safely worth ignoring.

That leaves the second and third issues. On the second issue, how common is acid resistance or immunity? Assuming everyone who can pulls off full on energy immunity the second they have the spells, we still have eight levels of brokenness before that effect is standing in the way. As for the rest, it's generally going to be significantly less common/potent than elemental immunity. On the third, it's a lot of attacks with damage chance, and the animal companion can afford to invest more into face punching than you can. Also, said companion enables you to buff attack and have an attack in the same turn, before leaving your spell use open for the rest of the combat. Also also, that low attack is coming as a cost associated with the benefit of not having a saving throw.

[Zanos]

Natural acid resistance/immunity is the least common of the main energy types. It's roughly Fire>Cold>Electricity>Acid, in order of most to least common.

But yeah, your argument seems to be that venomfire fleshraker won't paint your walls, take out the trash, and do the dishes. It doesn't, by itself, make a character an unkillable god king. But it's still extremely powerful if you're in any game where doing HP damage is relevant.

[animewatcha]

If you are willing to carry around a spellbook with venomfire around and willing spend a feat, Elven spell lore to change the damage type.

[Covenant12]

Eggynack covered really the most important points, but I want to emphasize a bit.

At 5th level, a venomfire fleshraker dinosaur animal companion has a potential damage of over 20d6 on a charge. The likelihood of the tail hitting isn't amazing, but the claws at +6 +2 charging possible +1 greater magic fang are scary. Even when an ubercharger gets shock trooper and another attack at 6th level he's still jealous. And that's about all an ubercharger can do.

AC is 20, with no armor bonus at all. Mage armor is very cheap, luminous armor may be available. For 1k gold or less you can have AC 24, which is very possibly the best in the party. With a reasonable DM a mithril chain shirt is a possibility as well.

Not the greatest hps. But its one class feature for a class that can heal well, and if it dies its back in 24 hours.

Its not "automatically broken", but it does change the campaign balance quite a bit.

[Crake]

Having never heard of this combo before, I think I can easily say the issue is by far with the venomfire spell itself. Initially I thought it was just an extra 1d6 damage per poison attack which sounded completely reasonable, but at 1d6/CL per poison attack, yeah, even on just a creature with a single poison attack that's absolutely ridiculous, especially when you consider those feats which let you spit poison as a ranged touch attack.

But then, what do we honestly expect of the book that introduced us to the sarrukh.

Edit: And of course, since it has the [Acid] descriptor, it can be changed to whatever energy you want it to be via energy substitution or any of the other various energy changing feats, so resistance isn't much of an issue in any case.

[Eldariel]

Don't forget, it's also uncapped. Just add Ankh of Ascension, Beads of Karma and e.g. some traits/Divine Spell Power and you're looking at 20d6+ each weapon.

Also, you have Greater Magic Fang for the attack buff (which also benefits of CL buffing, albeit with a cap at 20), and you can always Quickened Nature's Favor or Animal Growth it (and all your other animals) for numbers. Hell, you can even give it Shock Trooper + Leap Attack if you feel so inclined.

Yeah, it's "just" a melee charger but compared to all the alternatives, it's absolutely ridiculous. Not broken compared to spellcasters but broken compared to its equivalents making all other options superfluous (as a free class feature).

And it's not like Fleshrakers need help. Superb AC, just about the best martial crowd control combo on melee, and the creature can get a ton more ridiculous with the appropriate equipment (or Celestial Companion + have it take Vow of Poverty).

And this is without getting into metamagicking Venomfire.


To give you some numbers, Fleshraker without Warbeast or anything of the sort is available as a level 4 companion with:
4 attacks at +6/+6/+1/+1 + Rake on Pounce
Leaping Pounce (full attack, free trip, free grapple)
Poison, relevant on its own

20 AC (+3ish for free from Barding), 26 HP

Come level 5, Venomfire and Greater Magic Fang make that +9/+9/+5/+4/+4 at 6d6+4/6d6+4/1d6+3/6d6+2/1d6+2 on a charge, plus Trip at +3. That's not bad for basically permanent spell slot investment and no gold. If you Psychic Reform its feats/are allowed to pick them, you can further pick Multiattack to rein in those secondary penalties, though it gains it naturally on level 9 anyways if you Bond. Or perhaps go Power Attack aiming for Shock Trooper, or perhaps just some number improving feats. And if you're allowed to Natural Bond away the lost Druid levels, you're looking at a 6HD thingy with Str/Dex increases to all its attacks and an extra feat. Level 6 you get that anyways, but of course a category greater boons as a Natural Bonder. Those numbers are pretty ridiculous all things considered, and that's a 5 hour creature that takes no actions from the Druid. And if we work a bit to improve that caster level, it gets much more ridiculous.

[Gendo Ikari]

A naked fleshraker is already out of balance for the listed CR as it is. There is a reason every munchkin on the forum is willing to give the DM a handjob to get it approved, and that's because it's so freaking better than anything else at that level it's almost stupid.

Then you add Venomfire. Venomfire as a spell is also outrageously powerful. (A buff that gives you melee damage to every single strike as powerful as a wizard's fireball or lightning bolt... that has no cap... that sticks around for HOURS... )

"But you can shut this 3rd level spell down with a 6/7th level one...!" is just a shamefully dumb argument and you should feel bad for making it. The fact it requires a level 11 Cleric (or level 13 wizard) to shut down your level 5 combo should raise a few red flags, but among munchkins it never does. Meanwhile the game has turned into the "Dino and Friends..." show.

As far as it being "broken" though - I dislike that kind of thinking. It's painfully and poorly optimized, this shouldn't even be an argument. A GM can keep their game under control with one very simple warning: Anything you can do I can do better. Do you as a player consider it fair when the big bad starts to use your own tactics against you? That evil druid you run into next time you're in the woods can have a fleshraker too. Whole bunch of them, actually. He breeds them. Kept the strongest as his companion. With Enlarge Animal. And Venomfire... cast using a Bead of Karma and a Lesser Rod of Maximize Spell.

I won't cry about game balance if you won't. Just start rolling up that new character. :smallamused:

[sleepyphoenixx]

The important parts were already mentioned, but i think the main point where your argument fails is that the combo comes online at level 5. That's long before any counters or enemies with any significant acid resistance show up.

Sure, at higher levels it's merely very good, but at the time you get it (and for at least 5 levels after that) it's hilariously overpowered compared to any level-equivalent abilities.
Just because you can eventually defend against it (if you prepare against it specifically) doesn't mean it's not broken.
And that's not even counting the fact that your animal companion means you get it twice. Just a Fleshraker AC with Venomfire is already killy beyond anything except an optimized ubercharger, and you get it for free as a class feature + a 3rd level slot to do it pretty much all day.

And that's without any optimization at all. Get Fleshraker, slap Venomfire on in the morning, kill stuff all day.

At higher levels, if you still want to deal damage yourself, you could just shift into a different form. Like a Steel Dragon, who gets a poisonous breath weapon. Or the Ironthorn, which is already a pretty sweet defensive WS form even without Venomfire. Or any number of other creatures with poison.

[Doctor Awkward]

Shoot, the very next dinosaur in the book, the Swindlespitter, abuses the hell out of Venomfire too.

Poison Spray in a 15 foot cone every 1d4 rounds with a Fortitude Save or be blinded for 2d4 minutes, and a secondary save for 1d4 Con.

And a Swindlespitter is available to druids as an animal companion at level 1. I'm sure druids with this setup think that fireballs are just adorable.