What if the Order had murdered the Linear Guild

[Lord]

So I had a thought.
Shortly before the fall of Azure City there is a scene where the Order has the Linear Guild dead to rights. Pompey and Leeky have deserted, Yokyok is dead, and Nale, Thog, and Sabine are all tied up and defeated.
The order considers killing Nale and co, but decides against on the grounds that they might get rezzed and go back to attacking them. Now it occured to me that if they had destroyed Nale and Thog’s body with a desintegrate spell they could have more or less permenantly put a halt to them. Also depending on the rules of the OOTS verse, killing Sabine might banish her back to the lower planes for quite some time, or even destroy her outright.
So let’s say that in a hypothetical alternate universe the order just flat out murders Thog and Nale so they won’t be a threat anymore, and kill Sabine, banishing her back to the abyss for however long outsiders are banished after being killed.
What changes?
Right off the bat it occurs to me that Miko might never go nuts. Shojo only is overheard revealing his true colors because Roy points out that O’chul isn’t okay with indefinitely imprisoning Nale and co. Since Nale and co are dead and out of the prison, that isn’t a factor anymore.
I assume that Miko would make a bunch of accusations against Roy, but wouldn’t be driven to the point of attacking him. Shojo I think would probably be able to get her to back off, which means Miko would be involved in the battle for Azure City. Also Xykon and Redcloak in this continuity never find out where the gate is located, or so I think. Azure city doesn’t have the same drop in morale either. The nobles also won’t be able to ditch Shojo like they did Hinjo, so they will also be stronger.
The way I see it the chances of Azure City holding out are much, much higher. At the very least the hobgoblins will pay a much higher price for their assault.
Assuming things get to the point of the Empire of Blood Arc the fiends will need a new pawn. My guess is that a vengeful Sabine would tell Tarquin and co about the gates. However Tarquin isn’t anywhere near as easily manipulated as Nale. However I imagine that he might change his preconceived notion of himself as tyrant the good guys have to overthrow, to chessmaster who outgambits the forces of hell for his own gain.
Also, if Xykon was indeed defeated at Azure City, it might not be the end of Xykon and Redcloak's plans. They might simply go looking for Girards gate since Azure City is now inaccessible, assuming they survived. Which is likely, since they would not have known about the gates' location.
Anyway this is all just theory. What do you think?

[littlebum2002]

So I had a thought.
Shortly before the fall of Azure City there is a scene where the Order has the Linear Guild dead to rights. Pompey and Leeky have deserted, Yokyok is dead, and Nale, Thog, and Sabine are all tied up and defeated.
The order considers killing Nale and co, but decides against on the grounds that they might get rezzed and go back to attacking them. Now it occured to me that if they had destroyed Nale and Thog’s body with a desintegrate spell they could have more or less permenantly put a halt to them. Also depending on the rules of the OOTS verse, killing Sabine might banish her back to the lower planes for quite some time, or even destroy her outright.
So let’s say that in a hypothetical alternate universe the order just flat out murders Thog and Nale so they won’t be a threat anymore, and kill Sabine, banishing her back to the abyss for however long outsiders are banished after being killed.
What changes?
Right off the bat it occurs to me that Miko might never go nuts. Shojo only is overheard revealing his true colors because Roy points out that O’chul isn’t okay with indefinitely imprisoning Nale and co. Since Nale and co are dead and out of the prison, that isn’t a factor anymore.
I assume that Miko would make a bunch of accusations against Roy, but wouldn’t be driven to the point of attacking him. Shojo I think would probably be able to get her to back off, which means Miko would be involved in the battle for Azure City. Also Xykon and Redcloak in this continuity never find out where the gate is located, or so I think. Azure city doesn’t have the same drop in morale either. The nobles also won’t be able to ditch Shojo like they did Hinjo, so they will also be stronger.
The way I see it the chances of Azure City holding out are much, much higher. At the very least the hobgoblins will pay a much higher price for their assault.
Assuming things get to the point of the Empire of Blood Arc the fiends will need a new pawn. My guess is that a vengeful Sabine would tell Tarquin and co about the gates. However Tarquin isn’t anywhere near as easily manipulated as Nale. However I imagine that he might change his preconceived notion of himself as tyrant the good guys have to overthrow, to chessmaster who outgambits the forces of hell for his own gain.
Also, if Xykon was indeed defeated at Azure City, it might not be the end of Xykon and Redcloak's plans. They might simply go looking for Girards gate since Azure City is now inaccessible, assuming they survived. Which is likely, since they would not have known about the gates' location.
Anyway this is all just theory. What do you think?

A lot of what you are saying about the Battle of Azure City is true, but remember: once Redcloak makes the decision to send the horde through the hole in the wall, there's not much anyone could have done to stop them, even with Miko and the nobles in the battle. Like you said, I think the best case scenario is that more hobgoblins die before they take the city.

[eilandesq]

So I had a thought.
Shortly before the fall of Azure City there is a scene where the Order has the Linear Guild dead to rights. Pompey and Leeky have deserted, Yokyok is dead, and Nale, Thog, and Sabine are all tied up and defeated.
The order considers killing Nale and co, but decides against on the grounds that they might get rezzed and go back to attacking them. Now it occured to me that if they had destroyed Nale and Thog’s body with a desintegrate spell they could have more or less permenantly put a halt to them. Also depending on the rules of the OOTS verse, killing Sabine might banish her back to the lower planes for quite some time, or even destroy her outright.
So let’s say that in a hypothetical alternate universe the order just flat out murders Thog and Nale so they won’t be a threat anymore, and kill Sabine, banishing her back to the abyss for however long outsiders are banished after being killed.
What changes?
Right off the bat it occurs to me that Miko might never go nuts. Shojo only is overheard revealing his true colors because Roy points out that O’chul isn’t okay with indefinitely imprisoning Nale and co. Since Nale and co are dead and out of the prison, that isn’t a factor anymore.
I assume that Miko would make a bunch of accusations against Roy, but wouldn’t be driven to the point of attacking him. Shojo I think would probably be able to get her to back off, which means Miko would be involved in the battle for Azure City. Also Xykon and Redcloak in this continuity never find out where the gate is located, or so I think. Azure city doesn’t have the same drop in morale either. The nobles also won’t be able to ditch Shojo like they did Hinjo, so they will also be stronger.
The way I see it the chances of Azure City holding out are much, much higher. At the very least the hobgoblins will pay a much higher price for their assault.
Assuming things get to the point of the Empire of Blood Arc the fiends will need a new pawn. My guess is that a vengeful Sabine would tell Tarquin and co about the gates. However Tarquin isn’t anywhere near as easily manipulated as Nale. However I imagine that he might change his preconceived notion of himself as tyrant the good guys have to overthrow, to chessmaster who outgambits the forces of hell for his own gain.
Also, if Xykon was indeed defeated at Azure City, it might not be the end of Xykon and Redcloak's plans. They might simply go looking for Girards gate since Azure City is now inaccessible, assuming they survived. Which is likely, since they would not have known about the gates' location.
Anyway this is all just theory. What do you think?

There is precisely one cleric in the entire OotS world who we *know* is powerful enough to cast True Resurrection. He's green and has a red cloak, and has cast ninth level cleric spells. Also, the Linear Guild worked for Xykon before, so Redcloak could probably True Resurrect Nale, find out from him who his allies were at the time he died, and keep casting until all of the ones he wanted were back (Sabine would need to be summoned, not resurrected, and would probably be sent to Nale by her three bosses so she could keep an eye on things. We have no idea if Redcloak *would*, as the Guild has not had good results against the Order. But Haley was right--Redcloak could have brought Nale (and the others) back unless the Order took a page from Xykon's book and trapped their souls somewhere.

[Lacuna Caster]

As soon as Miko saw that Belkar was (A) not in prison and (B) working with Shojo (and Roy), she was probably going to flip out anyway. The LG are fairly incidental to all of that.

Killing the LG immediately after Dorukan's Dungeon might have some significant effects, though. Aside from what goes down in Cliffport, Sabine impersonating the blacksmith is what sends the team after the Starmetal- take away that, and Roy gets his sword repaired much earlier, which allows Eugene to visit again and tell him that Xykon's still alive.

(I'm aware, in theory, that Eugene was busy impersonating a BoPLAG by then, but that creates a huge number of other problems, and there's no technical rule stating that he can't appear to Roy from there.) That's gonna have all manner of knock-on effects down the road.

[D.One]

There is precisely one cleric in the entire OotS world who we *know* is powerful enough to cast True Resurrection. He's green and has a red cloak, and has cast ninth level cleric spells. Also, the Linear Guild worked for Xykon before, so Redcloak could probably True Resurrect Nale, find out from him who his allies were at the time he died, and keep casting until all of the ones he wanted were back (Sabine would need to be summoned, not resurrected, and would probably be sent to Nale by her three bosses so she could keep an eye on things. We have no idea if Redcloak *would*, as the Guild has not had good results against the Order. But Haley was right--Redcloak could have brought Nale (and the others) back unless the Order took a page from Xykon's book and trapped their souls somewhere.

For all we know, there's little love beetween Team Evil and the LG. I see no reasonable reason for Redcloak to rezz Nale & Co.


Killing the LG immediately after Dorukan's Dungeon might have some significant effects, though. Aside from what goes down in Cliffport, Sabine impersonating the blacksmith is what sends the team after the Starmetal- take away that, and Roy gets his sword repaired much earlier, which allows Eugene to visit again and tell him that Xykon's still alive.

(I'm aware, in theory, that Eugene was busy impersonating a BoPLAG by then, but that creates a huge number of other problems, and there's no technical rule stating that he can't appear to Roy from there.) That's gonna have all manner of knock-on effects down the road.

This would have enormous consequences:
V never kill the young dragon, so no Mama Dragon revenge, hence no Darth V, hence no extermination of the Draketeeth... and so it goes.
Roy never gets his starmetal reforged sword, taking from him a important asset agains Xykon, should the lich "survive" the Battle of Azure City. We can even infer that the reforging of the sword was part of the "ritual" that awakened his weapon of legacy, so, no Green Flame Roy too.
And so on...

[BaronOfHell]

If Nale did not escape Azure City and spend the time the OOTS should have spend (but didn't do due to DSTP) searching for Girard's Gate, the order would not have been able to stop RC's plan from coming to fruition since they wouldn't have been able to find the gate in time. (IIRC, right now I don't actually quite remember how the order found out about the windy canyon)

That is assuming everything else happens as it did.
Another alternative is that RC doesn't set up Gobbotopia, (perhaps Xykon gets destroyed, so they simply fail to take the city, perhaps other and better reasons) or the main villains goes straight after Girard's Gate and since Xykon is undead they may even defeat the defenders much easier than e.g. Azure City.

I do of course not know if Girard's family had made preparations for a high level undead spell caster, on one hand it seems like a logical foe, on the other it is maybe also a very uncommon foe.

Another version is that the main villains fall and the world is saved.

[Lacuna Caster]

This would have enormous consequences:
V never kill the young dragon, so no Mama Dragon revenge, hence no Darth V, hence no extermination of the Draketeeth... and so it goes.
Roy never gets his starmetal reforged sword, taking from him a important asset agains Xykon, should the lich "survive" the Battle of Azure City. We can even infer that the reforging of the sword was part of the "ritual" that awakened his weapon of legacy, so, no Green Flame Roy too.
True. On the plus side, when and if he bumped into Miko, there would be much less misleading evidence for the Order's involvement in secondary crimes actually committed by the LG. It's conceivable that Miko could be induced to assist with hunting Team Evil, or at least Send to Shojo for fresh orders.

While there's no way to prove this, I also suspect that if early-strip Belkar didn't have a side-quest to keep him busy for more than fifteen minutes he'd have vented his boredom by butchering more innocent townsfolk while Roy was waiting to get his sword repaired. Which is bad in one sense, but would also remove any excuse for keeping him in the party. (For that matter, V using explosive runes on random commoners, in the miraculous event that didn't kill them outright, would normally count as aggravated assault. But I digress.)

[Lord]

In regards to there being no starmetal quest, keep in mind that this is a setting based on D&D with the gods being the DM's, so to speak. It's also clear that Odin has been influencing Order of the Stick to be in the right place at the right time. If the gods actively wanted Roy to get the Starmetal sword because destiny said he needed it to beat Xykon, it's entirely possible that the quest could have popped up in another fashion and Roy would have learned Xykon was still alive while on the quest.

Maybe the real dwarven blacksmith mentions that Roy might be able to make his weapon far more powerful, and Roy takes the plot hook.

Now in regards to the unstoppable wall of hobgoblins, keep in mind that Belkar faced the exact same situation near another part of the wall. He was slaughtering them en masse and basically won. The reason the huge wave of hobgoblins overwhelmed the wall was because the highest level character there was a spellcaster who was completely out of spells. Half the defenders had fled, and those that remained had no real leader.

If Miko had been at that wall leading them, it is very likely that the Death Knight would have been killed far more easily. Moreover, she could have probably pulled a Sexy Shoeless God of war moment of her own. Especially since she was a higher level than Belkar.

Although this likely would have ended up leading to a rematch with Redcloak. Which could be a pretty cool fight in itself. I suppose the laws of drama would demand that Redcloak would win said showdown and Miko would be killed. But since Redcloak would have to expend a bunch of spells on that, he'd be weaker for his fight with the High Priest of the Twelve Gods.

[elros]

If the OOtS killed the Linear Guild after they were subdued, it would be an evil, or at least a chaotic, act. Then when Roy was killed by Xykon, he would not have been allowed in the lawful good afterlife, and he would not have met his grandfather (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0498.html) and learned the Spellsplinter Maneuver (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1003.html).

[Mandor]

If the OOtS killed the Linear Guild after they were subdued, it would be an evil, or at least a chaotic, act. Then when Roy was killed by Xykon, he would not have been allowed in the lawful good afterlife, and he would not have met his grandfather (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0498.html) and learned the Spellsplinter Maneuver (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1003.html).

Not sure I can agree with that. If they formally accept their surrender and then kill them anyway, sure, maybe. If they simply refuse to accept surrender and refuse to offer quarter, and kill them anyway though? That's fairly ruthless, but I'd say Miko got away with being as ruthless without falling as a paladin. It was six on six, the Order still had a LICH to deal with, and the LG had proven themselves as liars and betrayers. There's no real reason to offer them quarter, and not much hope of proceeding with the main mission if you do. (no viable means of transporting the LG to jail until after they turned Celia back to flesh, and no way of knowing Celia would accept that task in advance).

I think the plan starting with "S" and ending with "litting their throats" would have been entirely reasonable in the circumstances.

Of course, storywise, that's not how it happened, and Elan would not have wanted to lose his twin brother so soon after finding him, and Haley *might* have sided with Elan because of that, even if she really would have liked to just END Sabine. (esp since Sabine being a succubus, wouldnt' have really ended anyway....)

[Lacuna Caster]

Of course, storywise, that's not how it happened, and Elan would not have wanted to lose his twin brother so soon after finding him, and Haley *might* have sided with Elan because of that, even if she really would have liked to just END Sabine. (esp since Sabine being a succubus, wouldn't have really ended anyway....)
Technically, after the first battle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0069.html), Nale and Thog had both been left helpless or unresisting, then accepted terms of surrender from the OOTS. I don't think they knew enough to say, at that point, that the LG would be such a recurring problem, and given they didn't pose an immediate threat at the time... well, Elan was Nale's brother, so it's understandable that he'd be reluctant to do him in. I can give them a pass on that.

After the incident in Cliffport and especially Nale's impersonation of Elan, however, I think they were really bending over backwards to rationalise a terrible decision made largely to avoid upsetting Elan's delicate sensibilities.

On a completely unrelated note, I totally forgot that everyone forgot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0075.html) about Durkon back in the dungeon. Huh.

[dps]

For all we know, there's little love beetween Team Evil and the LG. I see no reasonable reason for Redcloak to rezz Nale & Co.


I don't remember for certain, but was there ever anything shown in the comic to indicate whether or not Team Evil even knew or cared whether or not the Linear Guild survived the destruction of Durukan's Dungeon? Best as I can recall, they don't know or care, so I agree that there is no reason that Redcloak would rezz Nale.

[Lacuna Caster]

In regards to there being no starmetal quest, keep in mind that this is a setting based on D&D with the gods being the DM's, so to speak. It's also clear that Odin has been influencing Order of the Stick to be in the right place at the right time...
Whoa. Hold up. Do we have evidence within the strip that the Gods themselves have been directly manipulating mortal affairs for the Order's benefit? If you could link that I'd appreciate it.

[D.One]

If the OOtS killed the Linear Guild after they were subdued, it would be an evil, or at least a chaotic, act. Then when Roy was killed by Xykon, he would not have been allowed in the lawful good afterlife, and he would not have met his grandfather (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0498.html) and learned the Spellsplinter Maneuver (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1003.html).

if the killing happened in Dorukan's Dungeon, I agree, but if it happened in the third encounter, in Azure City, I don't really think it should rest on Roy's shoulders and soul since he wasn't even present at the time. he would wake up the next morning and, instead of finding the LG tied up, would find them dead, and would probably reprehend the groupo for the ruthlessness.

[Lacuna Caster]

if the killing happened in Dorukan's Dungeon, I agree, but if it happened in the third encounter, in Azure City, I don't really think it should rest on Roy's shoulders and soul since he wasn't even present at the time. he would wake up the next morning and, instead of finding the LG tied up, would find them dead, and would probably reprehend the groupo for the ruthlessness.
This is basically all a variant on the usual Arkham-Asylum debate about "why doesn't Batman kill the Joker?"

It's slightly off the mark, though, because in a universe with mass-murdering supervillains that are impossible to reliably incarcerate the legal system would just be modified to impose the death penalty. The solution to the Nale dilemma wouldn't be 'drop him off in Cliffport so he can escape later', the solution would be 'drop him off in Cliffport so he can go to the guillotine'.

[hamishspence]

(I'm aware, in theory, that Eugene was busy impersonating a BoPLAG by then, but that creates a huge number of other problems, and there's no technical rule stating that he can't appear to Roy from there.)

At least according to Eugene, he cannot "manifest freely" to Roy until the sword is fixed.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0291.html

which is why he took the opportunity to hijack Shojo's summoning spell in the first place.

[Lacuna Caster]

At least according to Eugene, he cannot "manifest freely" to Roy until the sword is fixed.
I'm aware of the sword being a requirement. But my question is whether, if the sword was repaired earlier, whether being summoned by the azurite clerics would prevent him from appearing to Roy.

[hamishspence]

I'm aware of the sword being a requirement. But my question is whether, if the sword was repaired earlier, whether being summoned by the azurite clerics would prevent him from appearing to Roy.

The circle is portrayed as something that holds him there - to leave the circle, he needs to have fulfilled the task he was summoned for.

[Lacuna Caster]

The circle is portrayed as something that holds him there - to leave the circle, he needs to have fulfilled the task he was summoned for.
I was under the impression that Eugene could exit from the circle straight back to Celestia, though, from whence he could appear to Roy again. (To be clear, I don't think the story makes much sense with Eugene being summoned that early, but just for the sake of argument.)

[hamishspence]

I was going more from the bonus strip - in which he made it clear that if he left the circle, he wouldn't be able to reply to more summoning messages - which was why he insisted his "task had not been fulfilled".

So - between being summoned by Shojo, and the trial, he would have had to stay in the circle because of this worry. He might not be able to sense Roy's sword being repaired from within that circle, either.

[Concept]

The whole argument is based on an unrelated coincidence. Are you proposing that the only way Miko could have figured out Shojo was in the middle of a massive conspiracy (which he was) is because he happened to make some remarks related to the LG?

Because this really is all about Miko smashing the gem, right?

[Lord]

Whoa. Hold up. Do we have evidence within the strip that the Gods themselves have been directly manipulating mortal affairs for the Order's benefit? If you could link that I'd appreciate it.

The entire reason Durkon was sent into human lands was because Odin choose to send a prophecy to the high priest of Thor that when Durkon next returns home he will bring doom and destruction on them all. Odin knew that if he did so, Durkon would be exiled, but he concluded that without the prophecy the Order of the Stick might never be founded and the alternative was worse. It was all spelled out in a recent strip, I can't remember which one.

Also Thor sent a thunderstorm to let Miko beat the order because otherwise they would have wasted her in a few rounds. Thor also sent a lightning storm to interfere with Durkula's plans.

So it is quite clear that both Odin and Thor have stepped in from time to time. They just do so behind the scenes.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It was all spelled out in a recent strip, I can't remember which one

1098 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1098.html)

Grey Wolf

[Lacuna Caster]

1098 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1098.html)

The entire reason Durkon was sent into human lands was because Odin choose to send a prophecy to the high priest of Thor that when Durkon next returns home he will bring doom and destruction on them all. Odin knew that if he did so, Durkon would be exiled, but he concluded that without the prophecy the Order of the Stick might never be founded and the alternative was worse. It was all spelled out in a recent strip, I can't remember which one.

Also Thor sent a thunderstorm to let Miko beat the order because otherwise they would have wasted her in a few rounds. Thor also sent a lightning storm to interfere with Durkula's plans...
Well, the first lightning storm was supposedly just Thor on a drunken bender. But okay.

I'm, uh... I'm going to need some time to process this.

[Dr.Zero]

No Nale to explain to Tarquin what the Gates are.
No LG+T&M to go after the OOTS in the Pyramid.
No reason to seize the Pyramid and giving Nale a second chance.
No battle T vs OOTS with T realizing how underpowered his only son is.
Arguably, being T a bit of a freak control, he might scry for Elan, and reach similar conclusions, but it requires a lot of free time or a good TeeVo to record the battles.
Anyway for a while they would still be in the "let's agree to disagree" terms they left, when T gave them the flying carpet. Elan could run to daddy to ask for more resources, if needed.

Oh, right, no vampire Durkon and no Hel's plan.

As said by others, probably the DT would be all alive, and, if the OOTS managed to deal with them, they could help them defending the gate from Xykon. Hard to tell if that might make a difference. Probably not.

On the other hand, no Darth V, therefore O-Chul would still be a prisoner.

On the other other hand, RC might still be playing civic leader of Gobbotopia, without the attack from V which made X angry.

[Lacuna Caster]

The entire reason Durkon was sent into human lands was because Odin choose to send a prophecy to the high priest of Thor that when Durkon next returns home he will bring doom and destruction on them all. Odin knew that if he did so, Durkon would be exiled, but he concluded that without the prophecy the Order of the Stick might never be founded and the alternative was worse. It was all spelled out in a recent strip, I can't remember which one.
Okay, uh... wow. Okay.

Let's just say that I am skeptical this is the best Ineffable Plan that a higher being armed with perfect foresight and direct channels of communication with their mortal followers could have arrived at. I mean, previously, I was assuming the Gods just... weren't paying attention. And before that I assumed they couldn't talk directly to their minions. But, uh... yeah. This really takes the biscuit (http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/40144.html).

[Dr.Zero]

Okay, uh... wow. Okay.

Let's just say that I am skeptical this is the best Ineffable Plan that a higher being armed with perfect foresight and direct channels of communication with their mortal followers could have arrived at. I mean, previously, I was assuming the Gods just... weren't paying attention. And before that I assumed they couldn't talk directly to their minions. But, uh... yeah. This really takes the biscuit (http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/40144.html).

Maybe he made a bet with another God about it. :smallsmile:
(I totally ripped off this idea from Asimov's Spell my name with an S (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spell_My_Name_with_an_S) obviously :smallbiggrin:)

[Lacuna Caster]

Maybe he made a bet with another God about it. :smallsmile:
(I totally ripped off this idea from Asimov's Spell my name with an S (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spell_My_Name_with_an_S) obviously :smallbiggrin:)
I do sort-of wonder how that works out in a universe with multiple competing omniscient deities. I mean, are Odin, Tiamat and Lord Rooster engaged in some kind of perpetual clairvoyant one-upmanship game?

[Fyraltari]

Okay, uh... wow. Okay.

Let's just say that I am skeptical this is the best Ineffable Plan that a higher being armed with perfect foresight and direct channels of communication with their mortal followers could have arrived at. I mean, previously, I was assuming the Gods just... weren't paying attention. And before that I assumed they couldn't talk directly to their minions. But, uh... yeah. This really takes the biscuit (http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/40144.html).

Haven't we established already that the gods re neither ineffable omniscient or capable of perfect communication with their followers?
These are not Good Omens' God, playing solitaire with the universe, they are much more limited in scope.

The order theorizes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1098.html) that Odin knew what he was doing when he delivered the prophecy and he himself has implied (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html) that he knows of the second world and has better understanding of the situation than the mortals (and the readership).

We have no idea what Odin's end goals are, what he considers acceptable sacrifice or how much went according to plan. We don't even know if he really has a plan.

[Lacuna Caster]

Haven't we established already that the gods re neither ineffable omniscient or capable of perfect communication with their followers?
Unfortunately, as I see it, in order for Odin to foresee that Durkon would return home bringing death and destruction in this particular way, he'd have had to anticipate the long series of highly contingent events and apparent coincidences that brought him to be vampirised in the first place. If that's not omniscience, it's close enough for all practical intents and purposes.

[Dr.Zero]

I do sort-of wonder how that works out in a universe with multiple competing omniscient deities. I mean, are Odin, Tiamat and Lord Rooster engaged in some kind of perpetual clairvoyant one-upmanship game?

In the quoted Asimov's novel, the aliens weren't omniscient, but only very very very able to foresee consequences of small changes (they were mere students trying to graduate, IIRC, to add insult to injury).
Maybe making small changes to create big outcomes is their way to waste time, kind of a very complex chess game. I mean, being an eternal god in the long run must be quite boring, and pawing goddesses can waste only so much time.
So either they play their multiverse chess game using us as pawn, or they give up, get bored to death (so to speak), descend into oblivion and start to babble blasphemes at the center of the infinity in chambers beyond time and space listening to the beatings of vile drums and to the music of accursed flutes. :smallbiggrin:

[Kish]

Unfortunately, as I see it, in order for Odin to foresee that Durkon would return home bringing death and destruction in this particular way, he'd have had to anticipate the long series of highly contingent events and apparent coincidences that brought him to be vampirised in the first place. If that's not omniscience, it's close enough for all practical intents and purposes.
You're trying to make magic far too scientific. All that's established is that Odin's priest was given a prophesy that when Durkon next returned home he would bring death and destruction for them all. All that's theorized in the comic is that Odin knew 1) that death and destruction for the dwarves would be the price of getting Durkon exiled and 2) that that was a price worth paying for Odin, for some reason hopefully related to the Order--though that part could be the main characters' egos talking.

[SlashDash]

Unfortunately, as I see it, in order for Odin to foresee that Durkon would return home bringing death and destruction in this particular way, he'd have had to anticipate the long series of highly contingent events and apparent coincidences that brought him to be vampirised in the first place. If that's not omniscience, it's close enough for all practical intents and purposes.


Tsk Tsk Tsk... Who says Odin foresaw all of this?
We know there was a prophecy and we know the characters somehow interpreted Odin as knowing that Durkon specifically is the one person needed to gather them all up.


But we also know that sometimes clerics have no bloody clue what their gods are thinking (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html)

For all we know, Odin might have had something completely different in mind and people misunderstood.

If Odin is omniscient, he would be the one to talk in the Godsmoot and give the simple "yes" or "no" answer if the mortals could stop the Snarl and everyone would call it a day.

[Lord]

Tsk Tsk Tsk... Who says Odin foresaw all of this?
We know there was a prophecy and we know the characters somehow interpreted Odin as knowing that Durkon specifically is the one person needed to gather them all up.


But we also know that sometimes clerics have no bloody clue what their gods are thinking (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html)

For all we know, Odin might have had something completely different in mind and people misunderstood.

If Odin is omniscient, he would be the one to talk in the Godsmoot and give the simple "yes" or "no" answer if the mortals could stop the Snarl and everyone would call it a day.

It might be that Odin can see possible futures and concluded that the most favorable chances he had for the future were in Durkon being kicked out of his home. Thus he could not be omniscient, while still perceiving time and space differently from others.

[hroþila]

It might also be that Odin, not being omniscient, gets like flashes or insights into the future, so he knows he wants Durkon exiled but he can't really foresee the exact developments that will cause him to help Odin's cause/go back to Dwarven lands bringing death and destruction. In mythologies, Fate is typically a wholly independent force of which the gods get very imperfect glimpses. Prophecy is totally up Odin's alley, so he would get more exact glimpses than most deities, but there's no reason to assume he's remotely close to omniscient.

[Lacuna Caster]

You're trying to make magic far too scientific. All that's established is that Odin's priest was given a prophesy that when Durkon next returned home he would bring death and destruction for them all. All that's theorized in the comic is that Odin knew 1) that death and destruction for the dwarves would be the price of getting Durkon exiled and 2) that that was a price worth paying for Odin, for some reason hopefully related to the Order--though that part could be the main characters' egos talking.
Hey, if it's subsequently revealed that the Order's interpretation of all this is dead wrong and Odin sent that prophecy down the tube under the impression this would somehow thwart his own precognitive visions of the future, so be it. I will happily concede my error.

Given, however, there are other prophetic deities in the world, I'm unclear on why Sangwaan or the HPoTTG couldn't get a memo from their divine patrons notifying them of, say, an impending army of orange doom, several hundred strips ago. Or simply correct the Guard's misconception about who was the most dangerous party in Dorukan's Dungeon. Or go right back to Lirian's Gate and clear up that mess. You can't have "the Gods are silent, hands-off observers" as a major underlying premise of the story when they clearly aren't silent and clearly aren't hands-off observers.

.

[Fyraltari]

Hey, if it's subsequently revealed that the Order's interpretation of all this is dead wrong and Odin sent that prophecy down the tube under the impression this would somehow thwart his own precognitive visions of the future, so be it. I will happily concede my error.
What do you mean thwarting his own visions?


Given, however, there are other prophetic deities in the world, I'm unclear on why Sangwaan or the HPoTTG couldn't get a memo from their divine patrons notifying them of, say, an impending army of orange doom, several hundred strips ago. Or simply correct the Guard's misconception about who was the most dangerous party in Dorukan's Dungeon. Or go right back to Lirian's Gate and clear up that mess. You can't have "the Gods are silent, hands-off observers" as a major underlying premise of the story when they clearly aren't silent and clearly aren't hands-off observers.
No but you can have the gods aren't all-knowing. you can have Odin knew some including part of the end result but not all that leads there. That is literally how every prophecy I've ever heard of have worked. 'Here's the end result, kiddo. Not gonna tell you what happens between now and then, though."
You can also have the gods have their own agenda and aren't a unified front too.

[Kish]

I think if you're expecting to get more information about Odin's motives than you already have, you should prepare for disappointment.

[Dr.Zero]

Hey, if it's subsequently revealed that the Order's interpretation of all this is dead wrong and Odin sent that prophecy down the tube under the impression this would somehow thwart his own precognitive visions of the future, so be it. I will happily concede my error.

Given, however, there are other prophetic deities in the world, I'm unclear on why Sangwaan or the HPoTTG couldn't get a memo from their divine patrons notifying them of, say, an impending army of orange doom, several hundred strips ago. Or simply correct the Guard's misconception about who was the most dangerous party in Dorukan's Dungeon. Or go right back to Lirian's Gate and clear up that mess. You can't have "the Gods are silent, hands-off observers" as a major underlying premise of the story when they clearly aren't silent and clearly aren't hands-off observers.

.

Even because for most of these, indeed, the Gods don't even need to be prophetic, just to communicate after a good scrying.
It is possible that the Gods really don't give a damn about their followers, and Odin, Hel and now Loki took the time to mess with the puny, dirty mortals just because the puny, dirty mortals are a key element in their power games.
But indeed it doesn't explain why Odin, the Twelves and alike didn't mess with them MORE, like gathering their followers to secure the gates (I mean, if some gods can give instructions to put them in danger, why some others cannot give instructions to secure them?)

But these are the usual problems that arise when gods are introduced, I suppose.

[Fyraltari]

I think if you're expecting to get more information about Odin's motives than you already have, you should prepare for disappointment.
That hinges on how the full story of Snarl and the world-within-the-world are revealed and what they are, I say. Defenitely second to third a ct of the last book stuff though.


Even because for most of these, indeed, the Gods don't even need to be prophetic, just to communicate after a good scrying.
It is possible that the Gods really don't give a damn about their followers, and Odin, Hel and now Loki took the time to mess with the puny, dirty mortals just because the puny, dirty mortals are a key element in their power games.
But indeed it doesn't explain why Odin, the Twelves and alike didn't mess with them MORE, like gathering their followers to secure the gates (I mean, if some gods can give instructions to put them in danger, why some others cannot give instructions to secure them?)

But these are the usual problems that arise when gods are introduced, I suppose.
According to Heimdall they voted to "let the mortals patch this on their own" last time so they probably are not allowed to interfere any more than what they did.
As to why they would vote that I see two reasons :
1) The fewer mortals in the loop the fewer risks there are.
2) They don't trust each other. As in : if given access to the Gate any of them could pull a Dark One and start brandishing the Snarl as a WMD. And really would you trust Fenrir or Balder with watching the reality destroying rift?

[Lacuna Caster]

Even because for most of these, indeed, the Gods don't even need to be prophetic, just to communicate after a good scrying.
Yes, exactly.


According to Heimdall they voted to "let the mortals patch this on their own" last time so they probably are not allowed to interfere any more than what they did.
If Odin can find some weasel-wording for his prophecy that doesn't technically violate their mutual non-aggression pact, I suspect the Twelve could figure something out.

I'm also not clear on why a mutual non-aggression pact would apply to Team Evil, who by all appearances are either threatening all the Gods simultaneously or enough of them that the Dark One would be badly outnumbered. It's one thing to say that the Cosmic Game must have rules, it's quite another when some of the playing-pieces are trying to burn down the house with all the players inside.

[Fyraltari]

If Odin can find some weasel-wording for his prophecy that doesn't technically violate their mutual non-aggression pact, I suspect the Twelve could figure something out.

I'm also not clear on why a mutual non-aggression pact would apply to Team Evil, who by all appearances are either threatening all the Gods simultaneously or enough of them that the Dark One would be badly outnumbered. It's one thing to say that the Cosmic Game must have rules, it's quite another when some of the playing-pieces are trying to burn down the house with all the players inside.

My guess is that the Gods are forbidden to order anyone to guard the Gates forfear of it degenerating in a free-for-all for control of the Gates. But if mortals want to protect them out of their own agenda then they can help a little. If the Order is correct then Odin did strictly nothing that could be seen by any other gods as trying to secure control of the Gates.

It is a shaky theory considering that the SG protected one gate entirely on its own and was entirely made up of Southern Pantheon worshippers but if "we didn't order them to do that. Soon did, on his own" counts as weasel wording then it stands.

[Emanick]

What I find a little weird is that the gods can’t all agree on annihilating Team Evil. Surely it’s each of their best interests to lay the divine smackdown on a bunch of villains who are trying to use the threat of the Snarl to control the world. Do they not know anything about Redcloak’s or Xykon’s plans? If so, why not? Surely they must care enough about the safety of the Gates to be constantly spying on the villains trying to seize them. It would be insane if none of the fifty-odd gods had thought to put someone on this.

Maybe The Dark One would react violently if they attacked Xykon or Redcloak, and that’d risk creating another Snarl? Yeah, that’s my new headcanon.

[Lacuna Caster]

What I find a little weird is that the gods can’t all agree on annihilating Team Evil. Surely it’s each of their best interests to lay the divine smackdown on a bunch of villains who are trying to use the threat of the Snarl to control the world. Do they not know anything about Redcloak’s or Xykon’s plans? If so, why not? Surely they must care enough about the safety of the Gates to be constantly spying on the villains trying to seize them. It would be insane if none of the fifty-odd gods had thought to put someone on this.

Maybe The Dark One would react violently if they attacked Xykon or Redcloak, and that’d risk creating another Snarl? Yeah, that’s my new headcanon.
Another Snarl can only be created if the world-building process starts over from scratch- I don't think a fight among the Gods per se would risk that.

I think it was mentioned that the other Gods had conspired to hide the Gates' location from the Dark One, so it's conceivable that he's also been hiding Xykon and RC's activities from the other Gods. (I also vaguely recall some post from the author saying that the Dark One doesn't need to split the worship he receives with a wider pantheon, so he's pretty strong as Gods go.)

I very much doubt that even he could conceal the movements of an entire hobgoblin army, however, and if the Gods are worried about the secret of the Snarl leaking out to the general public, then it's fair to expect they've heard of Xykon's plan. Particularly given that at least two surviving azurite paladins do know exactly what TE are up to and have a direct fix on their current position.

[Kish]

Maybe The Dark One would react violently if they attacked Xykon or Redcloak, and that’d risk creating another Snarl? Yeah, that’s my new headcanon.
I would venture that every evil god would balk at "if you have a plan to increase your personal power at the expense of the other gods that looks like it might work, all three pantheons will unite to smash your pawns" being established as a precedent.

Essentially the same answer as the recurring "why is the rest of the Northern pantheon letting Hel's scheme proceed instead of just overpowering her?" question.

[Fyraltari]

I would venture that every evil god would balk at "if you have a plan to increase your personal power at the expense of the other gods that looks like it might work, all three pantheons will unite to smash your pawns" being established as a precedent.

Essentially the same answer as the recurring "why is the rest of the Northern pantheon letting Hel's scheme proceed instead of just overpowering her?" question.

I am not sure. Hel still has to play by the same rules as everyone else while the Dark One is a complete outsider. Hel is not planning to take away any of the gods' power just increase her own, maybe even enough to become top dog but she would not become any more powerful than Odin, Dragon or Marduk are at the moment. And to even get that far she had to make allies and promises. With the Snarl as leverage the Dark One wouyld not simply get the upper hand in their game, he would get to rewrite the rules entirely.

[eilandesq]

Well, the first lightning storm was supposedly just Thor on a drunken bender. But okay.

I'm, uh... I'm going to need some time to process this.

Perhaps Odin told Loki to get Thor *really* drunk for the next few days just before strip #200. . .:-)

[woweedd]

This is basically all a variant on the usual Arkham-Asylum debate about "why doesn't Batman kill the Joker?"

It's slightly off the mark, though, because in a universe with mass-murdering supervillains that are impossible to reliably incarcerate the legal system would just be modified to impose the death penalty. The solution to the Nale dilemma wouldn't be 'drop him off in Cliffport so he can escape later', the solution would be 'drop him off in Cliffport so he can go to the guillotine'.
You know, that make me realize something: Given that Hell is an actual physical place in this universe, one that is known to exist, does that make Resurrection the spiritual equivalent of fleeing to a foreign nation to escape legal punishment?

[Lacuna Caster]

You know, that make me realize something: Given that Hell is an actual physical place in this universe, one that is known to exist, does that make Resurrection the spiritual equivalent of fleeing to a foreign nation to escape legal punishment?
I'm not 100% clear on what the lower planes' policy on this is, exactly. In standard D&D fresh souls in Hell are boiled down to thin amnesiac shells of their former selves, so while they'd certainly be happy to return, it's not clear that there'd be enough of the original person to reconstitute. It seems like you'd end up with some kind of Hellraiser scenario.

[zimmerwald1915]

I'm not 100% clear on what the lower planes' policy on this is, exactly. In standard D&D fresh souls in Hell are boiled down to thin amnesiac shells of their former selves, so while they'd certainly be happy to return, it's not clear that there'd be enough of the original person to reconstitute. It seems like you'd end up with some kind of Hellraiser scenario.
Presumably it just so happens that no soul feels compelled to "move up the mountain" or whatever the equivalent in non-Celestia planes is, until the time limit for Resurrection is up. Spells like Miracle might restore a soul that has begun its transition to battery-dom.

[Jasdoif]

With the Snarl as leverage the Dark One wouyld not simply get the upper hand in their game, he would get to rewrite the rules entirely.Which would be an excellent reason for the other gods to destroy the world and retrap the Snarl, instead of hoping the Dark One can actually restrain the Snarl after screwing up the only Gate still holding it back.