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Fax Celestis
2007-08-25, 10:46 AM
Dear Enthusiastic Player:

Telling me how horribly broken Iron Kingdoms can be is not a good way to convince me to run a game in that setting.

-Fax

Neon Knight
2007-08-25, 10:48 AM
How can a setting be broken? :smallconfused:

Attilargh
2007-08-25, 10:48 AM
Iron Kingdoms can be horribly broken? :smallconfused: Please elaborate.

martyboy74
2007-08-25, 10:51 AM
How can a setting be broken? :smallconfused:

A setting can't; the underlying mechanics of the game system can be.

I've never played IK, so I can't say anything about the game, however.

Attilargh
2007-08-25, 10:55 AM
The problem is that IK is a campaign setting for D&D 3.5. I'm not too familiar with the crunch (got only the Guides), but I can't think of anything that could break the game any more than the core rules already allow.

bosssmiley
2007-08-25, 10:58 AM
Wha'? Come on Fax, fess up. Who poisoned "Iron Kingdoms" for you and how'd they mis-sell it?

psychoticbarber
2007-08-25, 11:03 AM
Dear Enthusiastic Player:

Telling me how horribly broken Iron Kingdoms can be is not a good way to convince me to run a game in that setting.

-Fax

I...I just...

Ah nevermind, I've got nothin'.

Matthew
2007-08-25, 11:41 AM
This is confusing. Is Iron Kingdoms broken? That's the one with the Gun Mages and enthusiastic following, isn't it?

Attilargh
2007-08-25, 11:43 AM
The same. It also has massive, smoke-belching robots and a rather good metaplot.

Leon
2007-08-25, 11:45 AM
I'd like to know more on how my favourite setting is horribly broken

Matthew
2007-08-25, 11:45 AM
Good, I always get it confused with Iron Heroes, which is the low magic alternative to D&D, I think. Didn't the lead designer on 4e work on one of these? I don't recall off hand.

Attilargh
2007-08-25, 11:54 AM
Ędit: I seem to have been a victim of advertisement. Thanks for pointing it out, Merlin.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-08-25, 11:58 AM
Well, Iron Heroes was penned by Monte Cook, but I don't know if he's got anything to do with the 4th Ed.No, it was written by Mike Mearls -- currently lead developer at WotC -- and published by Monte's company, Malhavoc Press. Monte didn't do anything in the writing of it.

Kiero
2007-08-25, 12:01 PM
So there's Iron Kingdoms, Iron Heroes and Iron Gauntlets. What's the difference between the three?

GunMage
2007-08-25, 12:02 PM
I'd like to no more on how my favourite setting is horribly broken

As would I.

Fax Celestis
2007-08-25, 12:13 PM
Not the setting, but the material.

Something about infinitely powered Warjacks, black-cloaked druids, and other things as well. I really didn't pay much attention. Because, honestly, I don't really want to learn a whole bunch of new mechanics and a setting if they're irreparable.

Matthew
2007-08-25, 12:17 PM
So there's Iron Kingdoms, Iron Heroes and Iron Gauntlets. What's the difference between the three?

Iron Kingdoms (http://www.privateerpress.com/ironkingdoms/default.php) is put out by Privateer Press. It's a full blown D20 Campaign World with a Late Medieval mixed with Magic Theme.

Iron Heroes (http://www.ptolus.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?iron-lore) is a variant version of D&D put out by Malvahoc Press and recently sold on to Adam Windsor (whoever that is). It is much acclaimed and penned by Mike Mearls, being a low magic alternative to D&D.

Iron Gauntlet I know next to nothing about. Looks like an entirely different system from the above D20 products.

Attilargh
2007-08-25, 12:25 PM
Most warjacks need a boop-ton of coal and water to work half an hour in combat. And what's wrong about Blackclads? (Okay, one of their spells literally makes rocks fall and people die, but that's pretty much it.)

Fax Celestis
2007-08-25, 12:26 PM
Most warjacks need a boop-ton of coal and water to work half an hour in combat. And what's wrong about Blackclads? (Okay, one of their spells literally makes rocks fall and people die, but that's pretty much it.)

Runeplate to create coal. Runeplate to create water. Runeplate to activate when low on fuel. Runeplate to deactivate when too much fuel.

Attilargh
2007-08-25, 12:30 PM
...Oh. Well, that's just cheesy. I wonder what the price of coal is in those games.

Needs one of those whatchamacallit turbines to power the runeplates, by the way.

Ędit: I am curious, what spell would be used to measure the amount of coal and water?

Fax Celestis
2007-08-25, 12:39 PM
I've no idea. I'm just repeating what I've been told.

Leon
2007-08-25, 12:42 PM
Not the setting, but the material.

Something about infinitely powered Warjacks, black-cloaked druids, and other things as well. I really didn't pay much attention. Because, honestly, I don't really want to learn a whole bunch of new mechanics and a setting if they're irreparable.


Only way i can think of to create a infinite powered Jack would be a Electric one with a Large Stormsphere


Runeplate to create coal. Runeplate to create water. Runeplate to activate when low on fuel. Runeplate to deactivate when too much fuel.

My books are on loan so i cant check the particulars of that one
but - Just say No, its the Universal DMs Ability. Plus there is a time and a place for Jacks - not to mention Warjacks
Then again there are a plethora of things that can and will make scrap metal out of a warjack

Dire Troll (http://mattdixon.co.uk/Images/Mauler.jpg/)


black-cloaked druids


Whats wrong with the Circle?
If you enforce the material from No Quarter (+ the Web Feature) druids are broken down into area's of specialization - Broadly: Earth, Storm & Beast

Attilargh
2007-08-25, 12:53 PM
Well, it would probably be easier to do with a couple of proper triggers.

Anyway, I don't think having a somewhat easy way of making free fuel via the creation of magical items is particularly Iron Kingdoms' fault. That particular issue would present itself in any D&D setting that features engines, steam or otherwise.

I say give the setting a chance. It's not that bad.

CharPixie
2007-08-25, 02:08 PM
A DM can always say no, but a player wanting to play a system so he can break it? Inspires a DM to say no straight off.

Were-Sandwich
2007-08-25, 02:15 PM
Isn't that the one that gives you Dr for wearing a trenchcoat? If so, sign me up!

Tengu
2007-08-25, 02:36 PM
Yup, it's this one. Those armored coats are plain cool. Also, notice that in the War Machine miniature game, practically all non-jack minis wear those.

Leon
2007-08-26, 08:07 AM
Greatcoats give no DR (also avalible in Rain slicked type)
Reinforced ones Grant DR 3/B + Armour
Armoured ones DR 5/B + Armour

Stacks on Light armour with further penalties

Also, unless your starting at a high level a Jack is not a Cake walk to make or buy - Heck a Warjack is going to be a even trickier thing to make (or even steal if you go that way)


A DM can always say no, but a player wanting to play a system so he can break it? Inspires a DM to say no straight off.

Not that anyone cant break any other system based off of D&D - Thats what Optimization is doing for everything, this is just another aspect of it

Feralgeist
2007-08-26, 08:51 AM
if they're givin' you jack troubles,theres a few solutions.

Make it turn into the deathjack and eat them.

Make the deathjack come along and eat them and their jack

Or have some guy sunder a runeplate

Kiren
2007-08-26, 09:41 AM
Gun mage is a favorite class of mine,

Kiero
2007-08-27, 07:14 PM
Iron Kingdoms (http://www.privateerpress.com/ironkingdoms/default.php) is put out by Privateer Press. It's a full blown D20 Campaign World with a Late Medieval mixed with Magic Theme.

Iron Heroes (http://www.ptolus.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?iron-lore) is a variant version of D&D put out by Malvahoc Press and recently sold on to Adam Windsor (whoever that is). It is much acclaimed and penned by Mike Mearls, being a low magic alternative to D&D.

Iron Gauntlet I know next to nothing about. Looks like an entirely different system from the above D20 products.

Which is the one with the mecha-a-likes in it?

Kizara
2007-08-27, 07:30 PM
Which is the one with the mecha-a-likes in it?

Considering the above "Jack" debate, I'm assuming that "Jack"= Mech.

leperkhaun
2007-08-28, 01:09 AM
its only broken if you let it be. Heck look at Pun Pun, just because you can make something broken doesnt mean the DM will allow it.

Besides as some other people mentioned, it cant be any more broken than DnD is. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=482636 check out the builds section for broken, but technically legal builds

Jack Mann
2007-08-28, 01:11 AM
Considering the above "Jack" debate, I'm assuming that "Jack"= Mech.

"Jack"=Awesome, actually. But yes, the term is appropriated for giant mech-like things in Iron Kingdoms.

Dant
2007-08-28, 08:36 AM
Besides the fact that Jacks are crazy expensive in the first place, the unlimited fuel thing shouldn't work. At least not very well. First, I believe those plates can wear out/be damaged. Secondly, and more importantly, you have to be able to power the damn things in the first place. That means they're going to need heavy accumulators or another steam engine. Either way is costly.

Much love for Iron Kingdoms. Best steampunk D20 setting I've ever seen. Don't let one person ruin it for you.

Crazy_Uncle_Doug
2007-08-28, 09:30 AM
Iron Kingdoms does more or less work on the "No Such Thing as a Free Lunch" principle. That is, your runeplates require something to power them, thus to get them to work, you'll need fuel in the first place.

Warjacks are intended to be nigh-instoppable juggernauts of pain-dealing and enemy-crushinating. It doesn't mean they are the most powerful things around. Several larger beasties can go toe-to-toe with a 'jack and even take the metal behemoths out. There are even cadres of troops or mercs specially trained just to disable or destroy Warjacks. With the right amount of foresight and experience, anyone could in theory destroy Warjacks.

The strengths of the Warjack isn't "Broken" any more than any beastie one can yank out of a Monster Manual. "No Quarter" mag regularly features the 'jacks and gives stat-blocks one would expect in a monster-catalog so a DM can bring them against the PCs (or with the PCs, but where's the fun in that?) The Challenge Ratings are typically well-placed there.

Sure, there's some rather powerful druids out there. On the other hand, when the druids are taking on forces of civilization that have cannons, mortar-fire, flamethrowers, and of course the ever-lovin' Warjacks, the druids need some big firepower as well.

Overall, the system is well-balanced within its own set parameters. There's a lot I like about it, and I rue that the players I run a game for never really want to do anything but Forgotten Realms.

JackShandy
2007-08-28, 04:20 PM
I really like the Iron Kingdoms setting. It does have a few problems where the detailed world that's described doesn't quite mesh with the D20 rules -- "Enlarge Person" and steam armor comes to mind.

Even if you did allow players to create spells that would monitor the water and coal levels, I don't think the self-powering warjack is game breaking. After all, there's still plenty of stuff that can take it down, it just makes it easier to operate without a large support infrastructure.

Actually, a self-powered pack of Beserker warjacks roaming around the Thornwood would make a pretty cool antagonist.

Matthew
2007-08-29, 08:10 PM
Which is the one with the mecha-a-likes in it?

Yep, Iron Kingdoms, I am given to understand.

Person_Man
2007-08-29, 09:07 PM
Good, I always get it confused with Iron Heroes, which is the low magic alternative to D&D, I think.

I thought that was Midnight (http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/midnight.html)?

Were-Sandwich
2007-08-30, 06:22 AM
This sound slike quite a cool setting. Is there any way to make the Jacks turn into carts or rickshaws? You know, camoflauge.

Attilargh
2007-08-30, 06:47 AM
No. This is not Transformers. (And I'm having a hard time imagining a six-tonne steel rickshaw with a steam boiler.)

Leon
2007-08-30, 06:48 AM
i could see Gunbunnies pulling carts

Matthew
2007-08-30, 05:38 PM
I thought that was Midnight (http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/midnight.html)?

You could well be right about that, though I suppose there are a great many contenders out there.

[Edit]
Wow, I didn't know they were making a feature film.

Randalor
2007-08-30, 05:51 PM
Just wanted to point out a few things:

The whole "Infinite running jack" is good in theory, but in practice... you need... 5? runeplates for it to work *One for the coal, one for the water, one to heat the boiler hot enough/ignite the coal, one to turn the whole damn thing off* along with some VERY pricy components. The whole damn thing would cost about twice as much, and in the end, you STILL only have a jack that can run for maybe a few hours, before you need to change accumulators... I think. I believe the actual plan was a runeplate to heat the boiler, another to create water, and one of the other options to channel the extra energy back into the runeplates.

It's been a while since I've read up on runeplates and building jacks. If you do run IK, and the player tries it, just tell him that the heating runeplate can't get the boiler hot enough/ignite the coal, or have the one that produces coal explode in his face from overheating.

Bassetking
2007-08-30, 05:55 PM
I'm going to have to do some more reading here...

But it looks as if Iron Kingdoms could rather accurately and adaquately mimic... Sparks.((c) Phil Foglio and Gaslamp Entertainment)