Are Druid spells good or bad?

[Schwann145]

I've seen both claims made, but no one ever goes into any detail about why they came to their conclusion.
So is Druid a full caster with powerful spell options? Or is Druid a full caster with lackluster spell options who is stuck in the shadow of the other full casters with better spell lists? And most importantly, why?

[JellyPooga]

The Druid list fills an odd niche; environment manipulation. On the surface, this does not appear that powerful because it does little to nothing direct, like many Cleric and Wizard spells tend to. This is, I think, the problem those that think the Druid list weak perceive. On the other hand, the Druid list is chocked full of "force multipliers"; global effects that enhance or limit the performance of whole groups. This is extremely powerful IMO.

[Foxhound438]

this is now the second post you've made regarding druid specifically that I feel compelled to respond to, and I should mention that I've never played a druid. Take with a grain of salt.

The druid list looks to me like a "grind fest", where long-term value is the primary focus. They lack in spells like burning hands, shatter, and fireball that all give big bursts of damage, but they have abundant effects that give you gradual value for a long period of time- at 1st level, entangle and faerie fire both give long-lasting advantage to your allies, at 2nd you get flaming sphere, heat metal, and moonbeam for gradual damage, at 3rd you get call lightning and conjure animals, and at 4th you finally get a burst damage spell in blight (nothing to write home about, considering it's single target), and you're still seeing that your best spell options tend to be extended duration spells like wall of fire and polymorph. This is a theme present in the druid list pretty much all the way out to 9th- everything is slower, but ultimately more valuable the longer a fight persists. It's a decided difference in play style, I think, and people will praise or denounce the list depending on their own preference. Personally, I think it all looks pretty cool.

[Gardakan]

Druid spell list is fine. It's a mix of good spells but it's not as powerful as arcane list.

They have healing, buffs, utility, battlefield control. They can be awesome supports.

I recently had a Sheperd Druid (level 3) be quite the MVP in a 4-hour AL session with 7 players I ran. Unicorn/Bear Spirits are quite useful at healing efficiently in combat and he made good use of the spell list without being a land druid.

Thorn Vine, Druidcraft

Entangle, Healing Word, Faerie Fire

Healing Spirit (they avoided a short rest in the Chultean jungle, which would have attracted zombies)

+ the whole utility via Wild Shape.

Druids are creative, reactive being. They shape nature to match their needs in some sort. They're tough to play, they're rewarding class.

You need to make lot of pre-choices if you want to fully utilizes the ressources of any spellcasting class.

[Chugger]

Druids have some of the best spells in the game _if_ you know how to use them.

If a player can really only grasp such things as spells that do damage, don't play druid. You'll be unhappy.

At lvl 3 druids can access a really nasty, powerful area control and damaging spell called Spike Growth. If you and your party know how and when to use it, you can be devastating. Fifteen zombies coming after you, and your group is made up of lvl 3's or less - you need to run, right? No. As long as you have spike growth and you can get the zombies to chase you into a spot where you can make use of it, you got em.

They're dumb and will probably plow into the zone of spikes before they realize they're shredding themselves - and might keep going after you cuz what else can they do? You won't get all of them, but the ones you get are under "control" - the zone of spike growth is difficult terrain - and you can cast it on a cluster of them. So for each 5' of it they cross they take 2d4 no ST. It's a 20' radius so ones in the middle will take 3 or even 4 sets of 2d8 - that's 15 to 20 damage. And they're out of your hair for a while. Slowed down. (if dumb zombies have to cross the whole zone to get at you, they will die and not make it out - unless they save at 1 h.p. over and over - but they'll be coming out at only 1 h.p.).

The zombies not in the zone (cuz they were spread out) can be killed by you and the party without being swarmed by all 15 of them at once - you can heal back anyone who is dropped to zero - and then, if too many zombies are still up and not shredded enough - if if you guys got room to work - you can "kite" them and try to get them clustered up - and you got one more lvl 2 slot - you can hit them again with a second spike growth. They won't survive this one.

Divide and conquer. Oldest tactic in the book. Only this is divide, shred, slow down and conquer.

If your party understands what is going on, they can help you. A lock with the invo that moves creatures can push them back into the spike growth for further shredding. Other effects move creatures. A meleer can drop his shield and grapple a zombie. On his next turn he can still stab it with his main hand weapon, but now - unless the zombie broke grapple (it probably tried to claw him instead) - he can drag the zombie along the edge of the spike growth zone while not going in it himself. If he's positioned right he's adding 3 times 2d8 or 15 more damage to it.

Plant Growth. Study that spell and tell me there are no uses - brilliant uses for it - you can put zones in it that _aren't_ overgrown. It's obscene. You get walls later on.

Okay you wanna burn things, you can do Flaming Sphere. Each turn use your b.a. to ram it into someone - 2d6 - and if they don't or can't move from it - they take more damage. It lasts like 10 rounds - as long as you keep concentration going - so round one you can cast this and do fire damage and as a b.a. turn into a bear. If you're a moon druid.

Now you can bite and claw something - and ram the flaming sphere into it - or send it into something attacking your wizard - or w/e. Your bear does 1d8 +4 and 2d6 +4 and then at least one 2d6 from the flaming sphere. That's not bad. That's 26.5 average damage if bite and claw hit. A round. At lvl 3.

At lvl 5 you can summon a polar bear or two dire wolves or two bears or 8 flying snakes - if your DM lets you choose - but if the DM chooses you can try to "shame" him into giving you something decent. And then you turn into a bear. You can turn into a Giant Spider and spit a web at something, restraining it - and then put your bears on it. That's 2d6+4 and 1d8 +4 with advantage, twice, on the thing you webbed - and it has disad to hit - you buff and debuff and control all at once (it's speed is zero) - and you kill it fast - your bears are doing 31 pts a round w/out you - while you can stay safe away from combat or move in and bite, adding even more damage. You can chase things up a cliff or up a tree in spider form. The bears have a climbing speed and can come with you. There are other things you can turn into (beasts) or summon that have 10' reach - one has 15' reach and restrains. You can move in and out of combat that way if what you fight only has a 5' reach, as most monsters this lvl have.

Have I even gotten to Pass Without Trace - another iirc lvl 2 spell? Everyone in the party gets something like +10 to stealth. Group stealth check? You can't miss it! You can evade all sorts of nasty encounters or possibly win surprise rounds way more often. Mr. Assassin, you hear that? You need a druid! I can't begin to tell you how good this spell is. Only druids and rangers get it, iirc, or a bard that steals it.

Druids get some of the handiest spells in the game - goodberry - walk on water - water breathing - locate plant or animals - ways to spy on things - ways to get info from animals (speak w/ animals) - summon elementals - summon fey - fast travel spells - hold person (everyone who attacks a held (paralyzed) humanoid gets advantage and auto crits!) - you can bring a tree to life and talk to it and have it follow you around for like 30 days and fight for you. You get wall spells again to divide and conquer enemies. You're not a bad healer at all - not that healing is all that important but it is. And lots more.

So no, druid spells suck. Play a sorcerer and fireball everything.

(edit - heck I forgot Sparkle Bomb - aka Fairie Fire - you turn a large area of things into dayglow pink - and your entire party has advantage on them. Only bards and one type of warlock get FF iirc - maybe one more xgte class gets it. Longstrider - a simple lvl 1 spell - lasts 1 hr no concentration - 10' more movement each turn. Wanna turn into a Giant Toad - but it's slow w/ only 20' or 25' movement - not w/ longstrider, which you cast earlier - you'll go normal speed or faster. It can be incredibly handy. And then there's...okay, I'll stop now. Read guides. You'll figure out the rest. You have to be creative and willing to push yourself mentally to make druid spells work, and if you do you can outshine all the arcane casters combined - which isn't really true - except situationally it occasionally will be - because only druids can do the amazing things they do - if you're up for the challenge give it shot - and I wish you good luck!)

[Schwann145]

Only kinda related, but I'm also curious how Druids ended up with a reputation as good summoners. Sure, the spells are on their list, but most have a 1-min cast time, which makes them incredibly hard to utilize without knowing exactly what you're heading into.
Do spells like Conjure Animals and Conjure Woodland Beings actually retain value when cast with higher level slots in later parts of the game? Wanting the higher CR Fey and Elementals sounds nicer, but again... that 1-min cast time... ouch!

[ProseBeforeHos]

Good. It has less blasting and cc than the wizard list, and less healing and restoration than the cleric list but overall contains a nice mix of all those. I've played a Moon druid and ran for a land druid and both of those held their own in terms of power with other primary spellcasters. At super high levels (14+) the wizard may pull ahead but honestly, how many games get that far?

Hell, since I've got nothing better to do let's break down some of the best druid spells:

Absorb elements, Healing word, Entangle, Faerie Fire, Goodberry, Ice Knife and Thunderwave are all very good!
Flaming Sphere, Pass without trace, heat metal, are solid. Spike growth scales poorly but starts very strong, barkskin is great for moon druids. Edit: As one of the guys below this pointed out, Healing Spirit is an incredibly good healing spell for a level two slot.
Call Lightning, Conjure Animals!!!, Sleet Storm are all great. Erupting Earth isn't a bad aoe (better than anything non-light clerics get at least).
Amazing Level for Druids. Wall of Fire, Watery Sphere, Stone Skin, Stone Shape and of course two of the most broken spells in the game (as RAW) Polymorph and Conjure Woodland Beings.
Conjure Elemental, Mass cure Wounds, Reincarnate are decent choices. Awaken is a fun spell for getting permanent, powerful animal allies, and Commune with nature is one of the better high level rituals.
Bones of the earth is a great new XGTE spell, meanwhile Heal, Sunbeam and Heroes Feast are as good as they are on other classes.
Fire Storm and Reverse Gravity stand out.
Level 8 is a weird level in that you get several spells to help you level a city (earthquake, tsunami, control weather), but not much for less destructive endeavors. Feeblemind is always good though.
Weaker than other lists, but shapechange and TR are fine.

[Chugger]

Only kinda related, but I'm also curious how Druids ended up with a reputation as good summoners. Sure, the spells are on their list, but most have a 1-min cast time, which makes them incredibly hard to utilize without knowing exactly what you're heading into.
Do spells like Conjure Animals and Conjure Woodland Beings actually retain value when cast with higher level slots in later parts of the game? Wanting the higher CR Fey and Elementals sounds nicer, but again... that 1-min cast time... ouch!

They last long enough where you can get close to your target, summon, and then move in. Druid spells - or animal friend scouts - or the druid himself wildshaped into a little bird or bat - can scout to find the target possibly w/out alerting it. You can in most cases then spend the minute, summon the ele or fey or cel - and move in w/ plenty of time to fight.

If you're ambushed then yes, 1 min summon spells won't work for this situation. You use other spells and abilities.

Someone like this OP has to be shown _how_ the spells work because he's not seeing them. Give the OP examples of great druid moments you've witnessed - and if you haven't, explain why the druids you play with let you down. Again, you have to be very creative and willing to think outside the box (outside the engage and nuke and heal casualties mentality) to be a happy and exceptional druid. If this is not you, don't be druid. Not trying to insult you or anyone. "A gnome's gotta know his limitations," Squint Eastwood (a famous Gnome bard-actor)! Really!

[sambojin]

I'll add a few to that list, even if some are situational.

1: Snare: If you've got prep time, this thing can be amazing at blocking off thin corridors. Big, dumb and not dextrous tend to go together in this game.

Charm: Yes, charm is weak in this game compared to 3.5. But it's still there on your spell list, and is still plenty useful. It's just not auto-slave useful.


2: Hold Person: Excellent lock down for when other lockdown spells aren't your thing. Paralyzed is good.

Enhance Ability: Mostly characters in 5e "do a thing", usually based off a single stat. There's no reason to not have them be very good at that thing for an hour. Guidance does it once, this does it for ages. Even just using it as "advantage on initiative rolls" puts it into the good category.

Lesser Restoration: If you don't have a cleric, then you'll be the one doing this.

Healing Spirit: You just cast a lot of healing spells for one slot.


3: Wind Wall: Light damage, but very precise targeting, with a bit of ranged debuff too. There's almost definitely rules against it going over the same square twice to multi-hit an enemy if you're a grid player, even if it's only 1' thick, otherwise it would be broken (they'd only really be hit by the spell once anyway). But it's essentially "little chain lightning", with no chance of hitting your own people. It's also your "anti-skeleton-horde" spell, for some reason. Doesn't upscale, otherwise this would probably be your lvl5-6 damage slot too, even on a Str save. Instant damage with easy targeting and single action use isn't exactly a druid's strong point, even if this one has a concentration rider. Ask your DM if you can slot scale it. Then you've got chain lightning. Except there's very little that's resistant or immune to magical bludgeoning damage. Alternatively, you could look at it as "druid scorching ray", but only for mobs. Anyway, it's good, and vastly underrated. Multi-use, incredibly versatile for ranged defense, but pretty convenient just as a damage spell anyway. You can zigzag a damage spell in ways others can't.

Conjure Animals: Yes, it's been mentioned. Just remember, there's almost never a time where at least an extra tank or two isn't handy to have, for any party. There are also nearly no truly bad CR1 or CR2 beasts, even if your DM is trying to be a jerk. Plus, it's got plenty of utility uses as well. Anti-horde, anti-single-target, and with utility. You might look at beast's stats and think "bleh, nowhere near as good as a PC", but an extra 2x(2d6+5) attacks and a block of HP is always handy to have running around. Even if they take a fireball or a couple of attacks and die immediately, you basically just cast counterspell or a lockdown spell that wasted an enemy action or two. It's essentially like having a poorly optimized lvl2-5 fighter servant or four, on-call, at all times. Instant 5e leadership feat, but not as broken.

4: Level 4 is just insane. So good. Even when Conjure Woodland Beings is unbroken.


Anyway, druids are pretty good. Even land druids. If you've got that many "good" or "situationally useful" spells on your basic list, with more abilities or spells off other sub-class lists, it's hard to say they're not pretty powerful. And you get a full spell list, so you can mix and match each day. Also comes with good spot stealth, unlimited spiderclimb, 90' jumps (all on one creature, female Steeders), spot blanket magic resistance (crag cats) and flight with transport options (giant eagles) at lvl8 as well, for every druid type. On top of a bit of other stuff. But wildshape is more of a "spell effect" much of the time, rather than an actual creature shape, so it may as well be included too.

There's also the fact that your spells synergize really well with other party members, no matter who's in the party, while not completely overshadowing them. Where a cleric casts bless to make people better at combat, you cast a level 1-2 spell and do the same, but cooler. You're a force multiplier, but useful in many different situations that others can't pull off nearly so easily, almost regardless of the spells you take, as long as you grab a few of the better ones.

[Ellisthion]

For me, the strength of the Druid list is the spells they have that Clerics and Wizards _don't_, and there's a lot. Rangers and Bards get a few Druid spells but not many.

If I'm playing a druid and casting things like Hold Person and Healing Word... why not just play a Cleric? Druids can do other things, focus on that.

Eg:
Entangle
Faerie Fire
Goodberry
Heat Metal
Moonbeam
Pass Without Trace
Spike Growth
Conjure Animals
Plant Growth
Conjure Woodland Beings

These spells aren't flashy, but they're all very strong and have very little availability outside the Druid list.

I'd treat a Druid as more of a control / utility caster, so they'll often work best in a party where a Cleric and/or Wizard are present to perform traditional healing and damage roles.

[Aett_Thorn]

Only kinda related, but I'm also curious how Druids ended up with a reputation as good summoners. Sure, the spells are on their list, but most have a 1-min cast time, which makes them incredibly hard to utilize without knowing exactly what you're heading into.
Do spells like Conjure Animals and Conjure Woodland Beings actually retain value when cast with higher level slots in later parts of the game? Wanting the higher CR Fey and Elementals sounds nicer, but again... that 1-min cast time... ouch!

Conjure Animals and Conjure Woodland Beings are the two main reasons why Druids are seen as good summoners, and both of those spells have a casting time of 1 action, not 1 minute. So there is that. They get some combat casting options. Sure, the stronger summons need prep time, but most other classes don’t get in-combat summons.

[Dr. Cliché]

I've only played one druid so far (a Land one), so feel free to take this with a pinch of salt:

1) The biggest thing I've noticed with the Druid spell list is how many of their spells require Concentration. In theory, this can help them play the long game - since they can cast one spell (e.g. call lightning, conjure animals) and then have it last them for the entire encounter - or even through multiple encounters, in the case of summoning spells.

However, the downside is that virtually all of your spells need to be concentrated on for several rounds in order to be worth casting. For example, a Wizard can cast Lightning Bolt at some enemies and that's that. He does the damage all in one go and can move onto something else next turn. However, if a Druid casts Call Lightning, he's basically locking his actions for several subsequent rounds, even if circumstances change. He might well do more damage in that time than the Wizard would have done with a single Lightning Bolt, but it will come at the expense of his other actions and options.

And, yes, I'm well aware that the Druid can elect to just drop his Call Lightning or Conjure Animals or whatever and cast something else instead. But doing that sort of thing often will both eat through your spells very quickly and also mean that most of them have very little impact (since they're reliant on having an effect for a decent period of time).

There's also the aspect that some of their concentration spells might struggle to be effective outside of very specific scenarios. For example, the 5th level spell Insect Plague does decent damage and can last up to 10 minutes... but it can't move. So all an enemy needs to do is walk out of it and for the rest of the battle it can be safely ignored.


2) Related to the above, one thing I often struggle with is finding a use for a Druid's action once they've started concentrating on a spell. As above, so many of their spells are concentration that you're often left with relatively few options (especially since many of the non-concentration ones are quite specific, but I'll get to that in a moment).

Cantrips are the obvious choice, but they're quite weak and, perhaps more importantly, have a very short range. Until XGtE, Druid damage cantrips had a range of just 30ft - which I frequently found to be a real pain in combat. XGtE has thankfully added 2 60ft cantrips - Create Bonfire and Frostbite - but I've not yet had a chance to try a Druid with these, so I can't comment much yet.

Anyway, this isn't necessarily a huge deal, but it can make the Druid feel a bit superfluous to the fight, as once he's cast a concentration spell he often hasn't got much else to do. I guess it could make for an amusing role-playing opportunity if your Druid casts a spell and then sits down to read a book for the rest of the fight. :smallwink:


3) A lot of their spells do seem quite specific in one way or another. As mentioned earlier, Insect Swarm can't move at all, so once an enemy walks out of it there's no way to inflict further damage on them. Hence, unless you have a suitable area for bottle-necking enemies, all you've got is a very weak burst spell that you can keep around as decoration. Then you've got stuff like Call Lightning - which requires the Druid to either be outside or in an exceptionally large room (100+ft tall and 120+ft wide).

And, of course, you've got a lot of spells that are both specific and also useless in combat (Animal Messenger, Find Traps, Locate Animals or Plants etc.).


Now, I just want to clarify that these things don't necessarily make Druids bad casters. As above, their plethora of concentration spells mean that they can really play the long game by casting a single spell and having it last for the duration of an encounter. However, this also means that they're quite lacking in burst damage and may suffer against bosses or if enemies are frequently able to disrupt their concentration.

Also, I think their spell list can become a lot narrower, depending on their environment.

Put simply, I think it largely comes down to playstyle preferences, rather than objective power.



Only kinda related, but I'm also curious how Druids ended up with a reputation as good summoners. Sure, the spells are on their list, but most have a 1-min cast time, which makes them incredibly hard to utilize without knowing exactly what you're heading into.
Do spells like Conjure Animals and Conjure Woodland Beings actually retain value when cast with higher level slots in later parts of the game? Wanting the higher CR Fey and Elementals sounds nicer, but again... that 1-min cast time... ouch!

I'm currently lv11, and so far Conjure Animals is still very good - even when I don't bother upcasting it (which is most of the time). 4 Apes (or 8 Giant Owls) can do quite a bit of damage, especially if they work in pairs to flank enemies. Are they durable? No, though they can often survive one or two attacks. But if an enemy is attacking summoned animals, then they're not attacking members of the party.

Of course, it remains to be seen if they retain their usefulness at even higher levels.

[seventh_soul]

They are very good support casters that can do well in melee. They also have a small array of blasting abilities. Summoning is also quite good.

[Beechgnome]

As Dr. Cliche pointed out, the downside of druids is that many of their spells are concentration, so it limits how many different things you can do in one encounter.

But druids aren't so bad at direct damage, especially with Xanathar/elemental evil spells: the difference is that their spells do damage AND an environmental effect: thunderwave, earth tremor, dust devil, erupting earth, tidal wave, bones of the earth, sunbeam, whirlwind are all decent damage dealers but also do stuff like knocking people prone, create difficult terrain etc. Etc. And there are a few direct damage dealers like ice knife, ice storm and blight. Mix in the round by round slow damage dealers and Druids are unique in their ability to slowly wear down their opponents while also improving the chances of their allies to do damage.

Among all these spells, I think my favourites are erupting earth (it scales really well when cast at higher levels and can really muck up a group of enemies), heat metal and tidal wave (knocks a group prone, does damage and douses flames).

[Citan]

I've seen both claims made, but no one ever goes into any detail about why they came to their conclusion.
So is Druid a full caster with powerful spell options? Or is Druid a full caster with lackluster spell options who is stuck in the shadow of the other full casters with better spell lists? And most importantly, why?
Hi: short answer: GOOD, GREAT even! Long answer below

Druids have some of the best spells in the game _if_ you know how to use them.

I think this is probably the best oneliner to describe Druid.

Like Sorcerer, they need a tactical mind to really be efficient. Unlike Sorcerer, they can change spells every day which opens a vast array of possibilites.

Druid is a class for tactical minds: most spells involve modifying terrain or moving areas of effects to inhibit enemy forces or buff your owns.
Druid is a class for creative minds: many of their spells (which are available to other casters though ;)) mix damage, combat utility and potential non-combat utility to allow you many situations in which they are at least useful, if not great.
And first and foremost, Druid is a class for teamplayers, probably even more than Bard or Cleric probably, because many of their spells can completely change the approach of a challenge when properly used, and backfire hard when misfired.

A few examples...
- Need a scout? Wild Shape into a forest/land/water animal, scout ahead as a totally innocent-looking animal and report back.
- You have to sneak into a fort protected by a large shape of water circling around, connecting to a river? Use Water Breathing to sneak around by the least protected side or, maybe stay underneath and dig a passage with Mold Earth (somatic only) or just tools (although that is bound to make much noise ^^): you do have 24 hours...
Or maybe just use Water Walking on allies and let them run on water then climb walls, while you put up a preemptive Wind Wall or Sleet Storm to prevent archers on towers from firing.
- You are accosted by pirates on a ship, or your own is sinking due to a tempest and beyond repair, and things look dire for you? Water Breathing here too might change the fight, giving your whole party an escape with little risk involved.

- Your party must flee from a fight, or you instead want to prevent enemies to regroup / go help a lone leader? Plant Growth will be a huge pain in the *** for them, especially since you can selectively decide which areas within the 100 feet radius are actually affected.

- Your Wizard pal is threatened by a powerful melee that he cannot kill by himself, and would really dislike having to use his whole action on Disengage instead of being useful and cast a spell? Use Thorns Whip to deal damage AND pull the opponent away enough to put Wizard beyond the OA reach.

More generally, you can greatly increase party's...
- Safety (all Wall spells that block view or deflect arrows, Sleet Storm, spells hindering movement like Plant Growth).
- Hiding (Pass Without Trace, possibly Silence with the right Circle, Water Breathing, Gaseous Form).
- Mobility (Conjure Animals for mounts, Gaseous Form, Longstrider and Jump for small needs, Wind Walk and Transport by Plants ultimately).
- Offense: making people restrained (Entangle), prone (Earth Tremor), hurt (Moonbeam, Flaming Sphere), blind (Wall of Fire, Sleet Storm) etc etc...
- Resilience: IIRC a few Protection spells, Healing Worsd and Healing Spirit, Gentle Repose IIRC, Lesser Restoration...
- Exploration: Goodberry, Speak with Animals, some Locate spells, etc...

In several areas other casters get more or better in the end, but the Druid is the only one that can really fit in any party, even be the only spellcaster (full or otherwise) in a group without that group really feeling lacking magic. It will just increase the responsibility weight of spell choice. ;)

A Druid (especially Moon due to increased Wild Shape options) can in fact effectively be a better scout and spy than a Rogue: Stealth proficiency + Pass Without Trace blow up Rogue any day until the latter gets level 11...
At which time Expertise + Reliable Talent consecrate him as the definitive king, without buff to boot. ;)
But depending on your DM, as a Druid there are many cases in which you wouldn't even actually need a Stealth check. What's more natural than a cat sneaking into a kitchen to steal some meat, or a rat running around in the earhtly underground of a dungeon? Unless opponent's chiefs are extremely paranoid or is aware of Wild Shape possibility for some reason, and order any creature to be killed on sight, nobody will care about you... While a Rogue will have to either stay unseen and unheard, or relies on Expert lies, or try to kill guards before they give alert, provided it's possible.

You could even create some surprise attack that way: provided you find some place in which you can Wild Shape in and out, you can create a diverstion by casting a spell then running away as animal... :)

In the "I can be the lone caster of a party", Bards and Wizard would be close enough behind though: first because has some great buffs, healing and utility, and can poach whatever critical spells party is lacking, Wizard because while he doesn't have any heal, he does get some of the best "resting" rituals and spells of the game, plus many more "trap / security measure" ones than anyone else.
The sad thing is that they don't get all spelllist at their disposal though, and Druid could just pick Ritual Caster: Wizard feat (yeah, as strange as it is, you don't actually need 13 INT for that if you have 13 WIS) but then you enter DM territory. And if DM is generous with "spells as purchases" or "spells as loot" in the first place, then Wizard is definitely the best choice. ;)

[Pex]

They last long enough where you can get close to your target, summon, and then move in. Druid spells - or animal friend scouts - or the druid himself wildshaped into a little bird or bat - can scout to find the target possibly w/out alerting it. You can in most cases then spend the minute, summon the ele or fey or cel - and move in w/ plenty of time to fight.

If you're ambushed then yes, 1 min summon spells won't work for this situation. You use other spells and abilities.

Someone like this OP has to be shown _how_ the spells work because he's not seeing them. Give the OP examples of great druid moments you've witnessed - and if you haven't, explain why the druids you play with let you down. Again, you have to be very creative and willing to think outside the box (outside the engage and nuke and heal casualties mentality) to be a happy and exceptional druid. If this is not you, don't be druid. Not trying to insult you or anyone. "A gnome's gotta know his limitations," Squint Eastwood (a famous Gnome bard-actor)! Really!

But you succeed nevertheless.

It's sometimes not a question of player personality but combat time. A combat might not last long enough on average for the long term druid spells to be noticeably doing anything. 15 zombies aren't a problem that need Spike Growth to trivialize when the cleric turns at least half to cut down on the numbers, the raging barbarian and heavy armored and shield fighter go into the fray of the rest not worried about getting hit (less damage or hardly hit), and the wizard pew pews with cantrips from a safe distance away. The rogue is there, possibly with a bow from a safe distance away, to sneak attack what ever zombie the barbarian or fighter is next to. Cleric mops up with Sacred Flame to help ensure dead zombies stay dead.

Faerie Fire is certainly great. The Rogue likes you. The Great Weapon Master user likes you. Bards agree Heat Metal is awesome. The Cleric recognizes Flaming Sphere while using Spiritual Weapon. Druid spells are fine, but you aren't a superior type of player with a greater understanding of the underpinnings of spell use.

[Tanarii]

Due to the large number of concentration spells, they do well in longer fights. This makes them good at conserving spell slots, or using them for utility. They're good long-haul spell casters.

I can't count the number of times I've seen them paired up in a party with blaster-casters, who often use spells to easily blast through early encounters ... then fall back on cantrips while Druids, other concentration-heavy casters, and Martials come to the fore in later fights in the adventuring day.

That's not a knock on blaster casters who go early nova. They often enable other characters to save resources (if only HPs and HD) for later encounters, so they're benefiting the party as a whole. Just so long as they don't insist on abandoning the adventuring day early when the party is still overall strong.

[Beelzebubba]

15 zombies aren't a problem that need Spike Growth to trivialize when the cleric turns at least half to cut down on the numbers, the raging barbarian and heavy armored and shield fighter go into the fray of the rest not worried about getting hit (less damage or hardly hit), and the wizard pew pews with cantrips from a safe distance away. The rogue is there, possibly with a bow from a safe distance away, to sneak attack what ever zombie the barbarian or fighter is next to. Cleric mops up with Sacred Flame to help ensure dead zombies stay dead.

In a party with a Barbarian, Fighter, Wizard, Rogue, Cleric and Druid, sure. You just specified a dream party for that. Two tanks, two high damage blasters, and an undead specialist.

But in a different party - say, our party of Ranger, Tome Warlock, Lore Bard, Rogue, and Druid - totally different picture. Similar situation, but a whole bunch of skeletons. I had a Wand of Entangle (thanks, Sunless Citadel!) and we spent the combat basically a) Entangling most of them, b) drawing out the few that got out to be ganked by the Ranger and Warlock blasted away c) while the Bard supported as best he could. At one point, a bunch of the Skeletons made their saves, swarmed the Ranger, and he was hit by 3 hits, including a crit, and went from full HP to single digits in one round. If it weren't for Disengage followed by another good Entangle and a Thunderwave it would have been ugly.

So, yeah - theory craft what you want to, but parties vary.

[sambojin]

I will then. You should have been level 5 and blown them all up with Wind Wall. If you don't have a cleric in your party, it's your duty.
/theorycraft :)

It sounds like you and your party did OK anyway. It might not have felt great, but you got through it while contributing a bit. Sometimes that makes for the most memorable encounters.

[Chugger]

Nothing trivial about 15 zombies if you don't have a cleric, or if he's blown his channel divinity already! My example was predicated on needing to fight the zombies and druid being the only one able to control - but sure a cleric can split those zombies, too - again if you have a cleric. In AL it is very common to have no cleric in the party, they're not that popular, at least where I play.

Druids get meaningful control spells early, before lvl 3. Others get fog and darkness and hold person and stuff, but spike growth is deadly and does difficult terrain and can be useful at times even in tier 2 - any time a wave of low lvl nasties is sent at you, which sometimes happens, spike growth is an option. You get many others as a druid.

Thanks all- great examples here - and even the complaints are instructive - my answer to the complaints I'll keep short and general - druid has to be creative to solve those problems. Druid is very flexible save for the fact that they miss heavy nukes. And look, if the group is doing a 3 round fight of melee and sorcerer blasting, then a moon druid can just go bear and melee. Flexible. As a bear the druid is hitting w/ the equivalent of someone duel wielding a 2hand greatsword and a longsword with 18 str! And the damage the bear takes doesn't touch the druid. Can't ignore that.

[Foxhound438]

Only kinda related, but I'm also curious how Druids ended up with a reputation as good summoners. Sure, the spells are on their list, but most have a 1-min cast time, which makes them incredibly hard to utilize without knowing exactly what you're heading into.
Do spells like Conjure Animals and Conjure Woodland Beings actually retain value when cast with higher level slots in later parts of the game? Wanting the higher CR Fey and Elementals sounds nicer, but again... that 1-min cast time... ouch!

a big part of it is that they get conjure animals, so they can start being a summoner at level 5. Other classes get animate dead at the same level, but that's a much weaker effect that has the upside of not needing concentration. So if you go into a game saying "I want to summon things", druid is what gets to that first.

[Arkhios]

What an odd question.

Why would they be either? I mean, who defines what is good or bad? It depends on the need. There is always a situation when a Spell (whatever that specific spell is) is needed, and a situation when it's not.

[Citan]

One thing that I left out of my previous post (along many examples of how Druid spells can be nice, but I'm too tired for that right now XD) is that one of the reason OP has the feeling that many players don't like Druid are the strings attached.

Sure, Cleric has stronger roleplay ties, but it's also much more clearly defined as what people expect him to do (even if, in reality, you could very well build your Cleric in a unusual yet functional way with no healing at all with at least half of the Domains).

If you compare Druid to Bards and Wizards though?

The only defining aspect of roleplay (obviously using a big brush here) in Wizardry is the fact that they learn through intense study and writing in a book of sorts. Beyond the fact that DM may ask a player to spend downtime actually studying new spells, or making scenario shenanigans with the books... Who cares about who you are or how you behave? You are not even obliged to respect one of the classic wizardry tropes of "I'm all alone in my tower because I'm a paranoid power-hungry asocial".

Bards are possibly "worse" in that aspect: most DM won't care about the "musical part" of Bard fluff, you don't require an instrument to cast your spells in the first place, and you are a "spell known" caster with, AFAIR, no clear way as to how you actually learn them apart from "studying magic hidden into words"... So you really can do whatever character you want, and play it however you want.

Druid? The essence of the class not only requires strong ties with nature, it also strongly hints at a positive relationship with it.
Please correct me immediately if I'm wrong, as I'm not familiar with the classic D&d universe, but while I'm pretty sure Chaotic Evil Druids are a thing (although most should be Neutral Good or maybe Lawful Neutral?), could they actually be "evil" with animals? From what I remember, most fluff of 5e puts them as respectuous at "worst", fervent "protector" at best.
Plus the prepared spell represents the fact their magic comes from "nature itself" or a divinity: those strings could easily be pulled by a DM to request the attendance to some rituals, or plug some quest. I mean, I wouldn't mind anyway as a player, but I perfectly understand people who wants to play classes as mechanics mainly, yet have to play with a roleplay-heavy DM because basically (s)he's the only one available around...

Besides that, there is also the whole Wild Shape thing: it is indeed a good third, if not a half, of the whole class, so if one does not see interest in it, I understand he may be hesitating to try out Druid on the sole ground of spelllists, although I'd daresay it's still a safe bet. :)

[Gardakan]

Regarding the Concentration dilemma... it's present for every caster in the whole game.

I can't cast Haste and another spell at the same time. I need to make choices (aka what will I focus on this combat/encounter).

[Tanarii]

One thing that I left out of my previous post (along many examples of how Druid spells can be nice, but I'm too tired for that right now XD) is that one of the reason OP has the feeling that many players don't like Druid are the strings attached.
The OP was pretty clear that the reason they feel that it's unclear if Druid spells are good or that Duid spells are bad, is they've seen both claims made. "Seen" implies on forums. They also made a follow up post about them having a reputation as good summoner so.

The OP didn't write anything about feeling that many players don't like the Druid.

[Beelzebubba]

Regarding the Concentration dilemma... it's present for every caster in the whole game.

I can't cast Haste and another spell at the same time. I need to make choices (aka what will I focus on this combat/encounter).

Yeah, but a far greater proportion of Druid spells are Concentration. Druids often have to choose between a concentration control spell or a concentration damage spell. (Looking at you, Call Lightning, Sunbeam, Moonbeam, etc.)

Wizards have far more choices (in my D&D Beyond I see 24 pages of spells vs. 8) so they can build a more complementary mix of instant vs. concentration.

[Citan]

Yeah, but a far greater proportion of Druid spells are Concentration. Druids often have to choose between a concentration control spell or a concentration damage spell. (Looking at you, Call Lightning, Sunbeam, Moonbeam, etc.)

Wizards have far more choices (in my D&D Beyond I see 24 pages of spells vs. 8) so they can build a more complementary mix of instant vs. concentration.
Hmm.
I honestly think it's a very bad way to analyse it to be blunt.
Don't forget that Druid can change spells "at-will" (just needs a long rest) among the WHOLE list.
Whereas Wizard can change spells at-will among "only" the spells he wrote into his book(s) in the first place.

That makes a huge difference.
At level 1... (Please note that I use rough numbers, didn't go and actually count every single one).
- Druid has ~20 spells to learn from, ~20 to prepare from, every day (since Druid doesn't really "need" to learn).
- Wizard has >40 spells for learn from, 06 to prepare from, every day.

At level 3...
- Druid has ~ 50 spells to learn from, ~50 to prepare from.
- Wizard has > 90 spells to learn from, 10 to prepare from.

At level 5...
- Druid has ~70 spells to learn from, ~70 to prepare from.
- Wizard has >130(140?) spells to learn from, 14 to prepare from.
Etc etc.

So, sure, Wizard has a MUCH larger array of spells to learn from, but those are definitive. Meaning that, unless your DM is nice enough to give you chances to write additional spells regularly* AND make those spells the ones you actually want to use**, two aspects on which you have no guarantees...
Fair chance is you're gonna fall back on all the spells that are "community-proofed": Shield, Magic Missile, Mirror Image, Blur, Slow, Haste, Fireball, Counterspell, Polymorph etc...
Tough luck on spells like Tenser's Floating Disk, Levitate, Locate Object, Nystul's Magic Aura, Magic Mouth, Control Winds, Move Earth etc... Which can be extremely good provided the right context is met, except that it's rarely met... So you probably won't learn them just because "there is a chance they will be useful in next quest", because "just a chance" is not good enough. They'll have to wait for them to be found on a random roll loot or in a specialized magic shop of a big city...

Druid? Just warn him one day before (there has to be at least some kind of drawback, right? ;)) and any niche spell will be ready to save the day. :)

* (hint: imo he should, it's just the same as providing magic weapons for a fighter)
** (which is a whole other league imo: unless you, like, shop in a high-level arcane city or underwent a quest to rob a mage who you knew had the spell, there is no reason why DM should make things convenient for you every single time)...

EDIT: Also, I guess that is first a matter of personal experiences, but I don't see why you consider that you'd have to choose between concentration damage and concentration control: between Earth Tremor, Thunderwave, Ice Knife, Erupting Earth, Tidal Wave, Ice Storm (all of which combo very well with Plant Growth by the way ;)) you have enough spells that can deal damage. Of course they are less efficient both at native level and upscaled that their "damage-only" alternatives like Fireball, but the fact you get some riders and somewhat friendlier shapes/areas is imo a good enough compensation. Tastes and all that. ;)

[Talamare]

I think the question is poor

Druids get a few fairly useful exclusive (or semi exclusive) spells

The complain is that the Druid Spell LIST is poor because it misses on a lot of powerful spells that Cleric and Wizard have access to.

I think the Druid works best in a party that doesn't feature either, and poorly in a party that features both.

[Citan]

I think the question is poor

Druids get a few fairly useful exclusive (or semi exclusive) spells

The complain is that the Druid Spell LIST is poor because it misses on a lot of powerful spells that Cleric and Wizard have access to.

I think the Druid works best in a party that doesn't feature either, and poorly in a party that features both.
On your last sentence, I get the first part, definitely not the last.
Druid has far enough spells to hold his own in any party, including one that has Cleric and Wizard inside. Not only because Druid's exclusive can synergize well with others (without thinking: Maelstrom -Druid- and Fireball -Wizard- or Spirit Guardians+Command -Cleric- and Plant Growth+Thorns Whip -Druid- ;)) but also because at the end of the day, each character has only one concentration slot.
So if both Polymorph and Hold Person would be needed in a fight, Wizard can cover one and Druid (or 4E Monk *poke other thread*) the other. Because Cleric is probably maintaining either Bless or Spirit Guardians whatever happens. XD
Or you could even just have a bad guy the party *really* wants held down, and all three try their luck, so that party can build on the idea that next round enemy WILL be paralyzed because probabilities of him saving three times in a row are fairly low...


On that topic, as for Cleric VS Druid, I really don't see how/why one would be shadowing the other. They really have very different spell lists. So sure Cleric trumps Druid in restoration spells, but he's painfully inapt at unleashing direct damage spells unless specific domains, and he has several times less options in debuffs too... And that's not a problem either, since it's not what the party expects of a Cleric in the first place. ;)

[pdegan2814]

I've seen both claims made, but no one ever goes into any detail about why they came to their conclusion.
So is Druid a full caster with powerful spell options? Or is Druid a full caster with lackluster spell options who is stuck in the shadow of the other full casters with better spell lists? And most importantly, why?

Druids make excellent casters, depending on what you want to do. They have good healing(Clerics become better at higher levels with spells like Heal and more Mass healing options), and tend to favor battlefield control over direct damage(though they have some solid damage spells in their arsenal too). So what it really comes down to is your preferred playstyle. Do you want to be primarily hurling fire and lightning at people, or do you want to be nerfing your enemies so the martial types have an easier time taking them out?

[Talamare]

On your last sentence, I get the first part, definitely not the last.
Druid has far enough spells to hold his own in any party, including one that has Cleric and Wizard inside. Not only because Druid's exclusive can synergize well with others (without thinking: Maelstrom -Druid- and Fireball -Wizard- or Spirit Guardians+Command -Cleric- and Plant Growth+Thorns Whip -Druid- ;)) but also because at the end of the day, each character has only one concentration slot.
So if both Polymorph and Hold Person would be needed in a fight, Wizard can cover one and Druid (or 4E Monk *poke other thread*) the other. Because Cleric is probably maintaining either Bless or Spirit Guardians whatever happens. XD
Or you could even just have a bad guy the party *really* wants held down, and all three try their luck, so that party can build on the idea that next round enemy WILL be paralyzed because probabilities of him saving three times in a row are fairly low...


On that topic, as for Cleric VS Druid, I really don't see how/why one would be shadowing the other. They really have very different spell lists. So sure Cleric trumps Druid in restoration spells, but he's painfully inapt at unleashing direct damage spells unless specific domains, and he has several times less options in debuffs too... And that's not a problem either, since it's not what the party expects of a Cleric in the first place. ;)

Clerics have pretty amazing Debuffs
Including Bane, Banishment, Geas, Curse, and Contagion

In a Party that doesn't feature neither a Wizard, nor Cleric. Then the Druid can shine bright performing both tasks acceptably well.
In a Party that features both a Wizard and a Cleric, then the Druid might feel that everything he can do can be done better by the other party members.

[sithlordnergal]

Only kinda related, but I'm also curious how Druids ended up with a reputation as good summoners. Sure, the spells are on their list, but most have a 1-min cast time, which makes them incredibly hard to utilize without knowing exactly what you're heading into.
Do spells like Conjure Animals and Conjure Woodland Beings actually retain value when cast with higher level slots in later parts of the game? Wanting the higher CR Fey and Elementals sounds nicer, but again... that 1-min cast time... ouch!


I would say yes, Conjure Animals and Conjure Woodland Beings are that powerful, and retain value in later parts of the game. Looking at the different summoning spells, you have:

Conjure Animals

Conjure Celestial

Conjure Elemental

Conjure Fey

Conjure Minor Elementals

Conjure Woodland Beings

Summon Lesser Demon

and

Summon Greater Demon


Out of all of those spells, only Conjure Animals, Conjure Woodland Beings, Summon Lesser Demon, and Summon Greater Demon take an action to cast. The rest of the spells take a full minute, meaning unless you have time to prepare the other spells are essentially useless. However, Summon Lesser demon brings in uncontrolled demons that will attack enemies and allies alike, and will attack you unless you remain in a 5ft square for the entire fight. Meanwhile Summon Greater Demon has a chance of breaking free from your control every turn, making it a very great risk to use. You don't want to be fighting a boss and have the demon you summoned decide to attack you.

Conjure Animals/Woodland Beings has none of the risk of the two Summon Demon spells, and all of the benefits of summoning allies. The Druid is the only class with both of those spells naturally on their spell list. The Ranger can eventually get Conjure Animal at level 9, and the Bard can technically get both spells at levels 6 or 10, depending on their subclass, but the Druid is the only one who gets both spells at level 5. As for holding up in later levels, lets take a look at a similar spell for Wizards and compare it to Conjure Animals:

Since we already know Summon Lesser Demon puts everyone at a disadvantage since the demons attack everyone, let's look at Animate Object. This is a 5th level spell that basically does the same thing as Conjure Animal. You can use it to essentially "summon" up to 10 things that fight for you and are under your control as an action, and it is considered a powerful spell. And it is powerful! Toss out a bag of ball bearings, cast Animate Object, and you have 10 things with 20hp that deal 1d4+4 damage each. Together on the same target, that's a whooping 10d4+40 if they all hit, for about an average of 65 damage to one target.

But that's pitiful when compared to Conjure Animal. You can summon 16 1/4cr beasts using a 5th level slot on Conjure Animals. That's 16 wolves, all with Pack Tactics and a 2d4+2 bite. You're basically rolling 16 attack rolls with advantage to deal 32d4+32 if they all target the same thing. That alone has an average damage of about 112. But WAIT, there's more. For anyone playing in Chult, or anyone who has played in Chult, you have a better summon then worthless Wolves.

Allow me to introduce you to the Velocoraptor. A tiny cr 1/4 beast with pack tactics and a multiattack that does a 1d6+2 and a 1d4+2. Not frightening on it's own, but get a pack of 8-16 of them and watch even the biggest beasts fall. Now remember, a tiny beast is only 1/4 of a 5 foot square, so you might be able to talk your DM into letting 2 of them to fit in the same square. And if that happens then all 16 could fit around a medium creature in a normal grid. That means that all 16 raptors can make both attacks with advantage. That's 32 attack rolls, all with advantage. You're gonna have a hard time missing. And if they all hit? 16d6+32 and 16d4+32, that's an average damage of 160 when all 16 hit. Give me a 5th level spell that has an average possible damage of 160. And sure, a few of those attacks will miss, a few will be crits too which will generally even it all out for the average.

And the Druid is the ONLY ONE who can cast Conjure Animals at level 5. Rangers have to wait till level 9, and Lore Bards have to wait till level 6 and use one of their Magical Secrets on it. Meanwhile Wizards get to decide on Animate Dead for a few Zombies, have to build their army to 8, and spend a few 3rd level or higher slots to maintain control, or they get to summon uncontrolled demons which would never cause a problem for the party as a whole.

[Tanarii]

In a Party that features both a Wizard and a Cleric, then the Druid might feel that everything he can do can be done better by the other party members.
Your theorycrafting doesn't play out in the many actual parties I've DMd for with all three classes in them. I've never heard Druid players complain that everything they can do, or even much of what they can do, with spells can be done better by wizards and clerics together.

That's personal experience, or course, but considering how many players I run sessions for and how many sessions I run a week, I'm confident if your claims about Druid spells were even remotely the case I would have heard something from someone by now.

[Schwann145]

I've seen a lot of suggestions that "prolonged damage is just a different flavor of damage; it's fine" (totally paraphrased, don't be mad, lol).
Isn't this strictly untrue though? In a game with wound penalties or something similar it would be fine, but this is D&D, where the 1000HP Mind Flayer is identical to the 1HP Mind Flayer and the only hit that matters is the last one.

The argument typically seen is "the Wizard/Sorcerer/Whatever will cast bigger, flashier, spells but will run out of slots faster. Meanwhile the Druid can concentrate on one spell like Call Lightning to both deal damage and conserve spell slots."
True, but isn't said Druid much more likely to be killed by the monster beating on it's face while paltry lightning bolts strike it every round, compared to the (better) burst caster who made it much more likely the melee class can finish off the foes quickly?

(This post pertaining only to pure damage spells, such as the aforementioned Call Lightning or something similar. It's very easy to see the value in a dps/control hybrid such as Spiked Growth or the like. :) )

[Tanarii]

Given I said someone like that (and nice paraphrasing btw :smallbiggrin:):
What I see is that casters who focus on concentration spells tend to extend their spell slots across an adventuring day. So they're using them all day long, and throughout a battle. Casters that focus on big boom spells end combats faster if they go through them faster, conserving the party's resources at the cost of their spell slots. But if they go through them too fast, they're out and doing less later in the adventuring day. But the advantage is their allies have more resources (if only HP) during their later battles, while they work on less resources during those battles.

That all works fine across an adventuring day. In a battle where big boom guys end it faster, the entire party benefits. In battles where they can't because they're out (or if they are conserving slots for later battles so they just don't), other casters who space out their spell casting contribute more. Those battles last longer and cost other members some of their resources instead, but it generally evens out across the adventuring day.

Both kinds of casting have their place. In fact, for most casters they're going to have a mix so they can use either kind as appropriate anyway.

Of course, if your party can get away with a 5MWD based on how fast everyone goes nova then long rest, then the paradigm changes strongly in favor of nova classes.

[Talamare]

Your theorycrafting doesn't play out in the many actual parties I've DMd for with all three classes in them. I've never heard Druid players complain that everything they can do, or even much of what they can do, with spells can be done better by wizards and clerics together.

That's personal experience, or course, but considering how many players I run sessions for and how many sessions I run a week, I'm confident if your claims about Druid spells were even remotely the case I would have heard something from someone by now.

I'm surprised you have had many different parties (with completely different people) that played a Wizard, a Cleric, and a Druid.

I've only had all 3 once, I suppose I may have placed too much weight on that experience. However our Druid did struggle to find a place. He was providing assistance to healing with Goodberries, which everyone thought was nice; but it never really made him feel like a hero since anytime time the party suffered significant damage they would ask me to use Prayer of Healing. (Note this was before Healing Spirit existed).

As far as the more offensive side went, the Wizard and Ranger kept nuking things so fast that he kept doubting whether or not he should bother trying to help.

[Beelzebubba]

I'm surprised you have had many different parties (with completely different people) that played a Wizard, a Cleric, and a Druid.

I've only had all 3 once, I suppose I may have placed too much weight on that experience. However our Druid did struggle to find a place. He was providing assistance to healing with Goodberries, which everyone thought was nice; but it never really made him feel like a hero since anytime time the party suffered significant damage they would ask me to use Prayer of Healing. (Note this was before Healing Spirit existed).

As far as the more offensive side went, the Wizard and Ranger kept nuking things so fast that he kept doubting whether or not he should bother trying to help.

What level did they get to, and what kind were they? My Land Druid felt incredibly 'out of combat' useful up through 4th - wild shapes for stealth and recon/infiltration, animal spells for info gathering and to avoid combat - but seriously lacked damage output. He really came into his own when we hit 5th level.

[Talamare]

What level did they get to, and what kind were they? My Land Druid felt incredibly 'out of combat' useful up through 4th - wild shapes for stealth and recon/infiltration, animal spells for info gathering and to avoid combat - but seriously lacked damage output. He really came into his own when we hit 5th level.

We got to 8th level, he was a Land Druid of the Desert.
Very thematic 'Arabian' style to his character. He was RPing it quite well.

Tho he also didn't want to bother with Summons. He said it was too much of a hassle.

[Dr. Cliché]

I've seen a lot of suggestions that "prolonged damage is just a different flavor of damage; it's fine" (totally paraphrased, don't be mad, lol).
Isn't this strictly untrue though? In a game with wound penalties or something similar it would be fine, but this is D&D, where the 1000HP Mind Flayer is identical to the 1HP Mind Flayer and the only hit that matters is the last one.

The argument typically seen is "the Wizard/Sorcerer/Whatever will cast bigger, flashier, spells but will run out of slots faster. Meanwhile the Druid can concentrate on one spell like Call Lightning to both deal damage and conserve spell slots."
True, but isn't said Druid much more likely to be killed by the monster beating on it's face while paltry lightning bolts strike it every round, compared to the (better) burst caster who made it much more likely the melee class can finish off the foes quickly?

Well, a few points here:

1) In a1v1 fight between a character and a boss monster, sure. However, in most cases you'll have a tank or other melee character who can take the hits - which will usually at least make it difficult for the monster to get to the druid. Though, I'll grant less burst damage means it's possible said tank will suffer more hits as a result. Hey, at least Druids can heal. :smallwink:

2) We're assuming here that the Wizard/Sorcerer always has an optimal damage spell prepared. I grant that this isn't too unlikely, but it's not certain either. A sorcerer in particular may need to rely on more versatile spells, and so could have Chromatic Orb instead of Scorching Ray. Even if cast with a 3rd level slot, it's not going to do much more damage than a single strike from Call Lightning. Now, obviously if the sorcerer or wizard has Scorching Ray prepared (and they're not fighting a monster with resistance/immunity to fire), then they'll easily outpace a Druid using Call Lightning. However:

3) Why is the Druid casting Call Lightning in the first place? If he desperately needs to bring down a monster or keep one away from him, why not cast Spike Growth or Conjure Animals? I appreciate that they're not as easy to compare, but we can't assume incompetence on the part of the Druid just to make the comparison easier. :smalltongue:

4) Given that bosses are rarely the first encounter after a party has rested, the wizard or sorcerer might not have enough spell slots left that they can expend one every round. And, if they do have most of their spell slots left, could it be because the Druid was helping carry them through previous encounters via long-lasting Concentration spells?

5) Whilst I get the 'monsters fight just as well with 1hp as they do with 1000hp' argument, I don't get why it's an argument for burst-damage spells over damage-over-time spells. Surely the whole point is that you're better off using 'save or suck' spells (or 'save or die' spells, though those are almost nonexistent in 5th), and leaving the damage to the non-casters? At the very least, I would have thought this would be an argument for taking damage spells that have a rider on them (Spike Growth, Destructive Wave etc.) over pure damage spells like Call Lightning or Lightning Bolt.

I mean, if an enemy is still going to be alive regardless of whether you use Call Lightning or Scorching Ray, wouldn't it be better to try and paralyse it, knock it down, immobilise it etc., rather than just doing a bit extra damage?

[Schwann145]

Well, a few points here:

1) In a1v1 fight between a character and a boss monster, sure. However, in most cases you'll have a tank or other melee character who can take the hits - which will usually at least make it difficult for the monster to get to the druid. Though, I'll grant less burst damage means it's possible said tank will suffer more hits as a result. Hey, at least Druids can heal. :smallwink:

2) We're assuming here that the Wizard/Sorcerer always has an optimal damage spell prepared. I grant that this isn't too unlikely, but it's not certain either. A sorcerer in particular may need to rely on more versatile spells, and so could have Chromatic Orb instead of Scorching Ray. Even if cast with a 3rd level slot, it's not going to do much more damage than a single strike from Call Lightning. Now, obviously if the sorcerer or wizard has Scorching Ray prepared (and they're not fighting a monster with resistance/immunity to fire), then they'll easily outpace a Druid using Call Lightning. However:

3) Why is the Druid casting Call Lightning in the first place? If he desperately needs to bring down a monster or keep one away from him, why not cast Spike Growth or Conjure Animals? I appreciate that they're not as easy to compare, but we can't assume incompetence on the part of the Druid just to make the comparison easier. :smalltongue:

4) Given that bosses are rarely the first encounter after a party has rested, the wizard or sorcerer might not have enough spell slots left that they can expend one every round. And, if they do have most of their spell slots left, could it be because the Druid was helping carry them through previous encounters via long-lasting Concentration spells?

5) Whilst I get the 'monsters fight just as well with 1hp as they do with 1000hp' argument, I don't get why it's an argument for burst-damage spells over damage-over-time spells. Surely the whole point is that you're better off using 'save or suck' spells (or 'save or die' spells, though those are almost nonexistent in 5th), and leaving the damage to the non-casters? At the very least, I would have thought this would be an argument for taking damage spells that have a rider on them (Spike Growth, Destructive Wave etc.) over pure damage spells like Call Lightning or Lightning Bolt.

I mean, if an enemy is still going to be alive regardless of whether you use Call Lightning or Scorching Ray, wouldn't it be better to try and paralyse it, knock it down, immobilise it etc., rather than just doing a bit extra damage?

Your reply assumes only the BBEG is in question, but I wouldn't expect any casters to be relying on spell damage in that situation. :smallsmile:
Most smart DMs aren't gonna give one target for the party to just utterly destroy with action economy. Spells like Spiked Growth are obviously the winner (cc is best, cc with damage is best+ lol), but I acknowledged that in the quoted post.
But then, CC doesn't always work as boss fights tend to have ways around stuff like that; flying for instance. :smallwink:

I was simply curious about the opinions of Druid dps spells, and whether they were actually good or not, as the longer it takes to kill the baddies, the more punishment the party will inevitably take.

[Dr. Cliché]

Your reply assumes only the BBEG is in question, but I wouldn't expect any casters to be relying on spell damage in that situation. :smallsmile:

I didn't assume a BBGE, necessarily, merely a lone monster with lots of hp.



Most smart DMs aren't gonna give one target for the party to just utterly destroy with action economy. Spells like Spiked Growth are obviously the winner (cc is best, cc with damage is best+ lol), but I acknowledged that in the quoted post.

Your post seemed to imply a single monster with a lot of hp, but fair enough.



But then, CC doesn't always work as boss fights tend to have ways around stuff like that; flying for instance. :smallwink:

Well, one (arguably minor) benefit of playing Druids is that you can change your spell list each long rest. So if you happen to know in advance that you'll be facing a flying opponent, you could choose to memorise Earthbind, the Patron Saint of Niche Spells. :smallwink:

Otherwise, I think this is another case for using Conjure Animals, and burying the flying opponent in Giant Owls. :smallbiggrin:

But yeah, Druid cc tends to be a bit more limited than wizard/sorcerer cc as it's generally based on terrain-modification rather than stopping the enemies directly.


I was simply curious about the opinions of Druid dps spells, and whether they were actually good or not, as the longer it takes to kill the baddies, the more punishment the party will inevitably take.

I'd say that they're not terrible, but the Druid usually has better options. Conjure Animals, the aforementioned cc etc.

[Citan]

Well, one (arguably minor) benefit of playing Druids is that you can change your spell list each long rest. So if you happen to know in advance that you'll be facing a flying opponent, you could choose to memorise Earthbind, the Patron Saint of Niche Spells. :smallwink:

I'd be curious to know why you say it's a minor benefit?
In my experience that's actually one of the big selling points of Druids. After all, information gathering is part of adventure usually, so you should have some information on what's coming next more often than not. Unless it holds somewhat true in games in which I play. ;)

[Dr. Cliché]

I'd be curious to know why you say it's a minor benefit?
In my experience that's actually one of the big selling points of Druids. After all, information gathering is part of adventure usually, so you should have some information on what's coming next more often than not. Unless it holds somewhat true in games in which I play. ;)

Well, I was more looking at the issue mentioned (that of a flying creature able to avoid most of a Druid's cc effects). it occurred to me that a Druid could alter his spell list to take a spell that was more effective against fliers. However, I then realised that there was really only one such spell (Earthbind), and it was pretty naff even then. :smalltongue:

I appreciate that swapping out spells can be more useful in other circumstances, and it's nice that Druids automatically have access to their entire spell lists.

However, I'm not sure I'd put that much faith into information gathering. I can only speak for the campaigns I've participated in, but there have been a *lot* of times when the information we could gather was sketchy at best, entirely absent, or completely wrong. Not to mention the times when we had information on one villain or such, but then got ambushed/derailed dealing with something unexpected that we had basically no information on.

Hence, regardless of information, I'd still be swapping out very few spells - as I'd want to keep a core of generally useful spells at all times (rather than relying on more niche spells that are hopefully good against what we're supposed to be up against).

Again, I appreciate that others might have better luck gathering information in their respective campaigns, in which case I can see why they'd rate this ability much higher.

[Strangways]

I've seen a lot of suggestions that "prolonged damage is just a different flavor of damage; it's fine" (totally paraphrased, don't be mad, lol).
Isn't this strictly untrue though? In a game with wound penalties or something similar it would be fine, but this is D&D, where the 1000HP Mind Flayer is identical to the 1HP Mind Flayer and the only hit that matters is the last one.

The argument typically seen is "the Wizard/Sorcerer/Whatever will cast bigger, flashier, spells but will run out of slots faster. Meanwhile the Druid can concentrate on one spell like Call Lightning to both deal damage and conserve spell slots."
True, but isn't said Druid much more likely to be killed by the monster beating on it's face while paltry lightning bolts strike it every round, compared to the (better) burst caster who made it much more likely the melee class can finish off the foes quickly?

(This post pertaining only to pure damage spells, such as the aforementioned Call Lightning or something similar. It's very easy to see the value in a dps/control hybrid such as Spiked Growth or the like. :) )

That wizard isn't going to kill the boss with one big, flashy spell. It's going to take multiple spells and, in the meantime, the monster is just as capable beating on a wizard as he is beating on a druid. Wizards have quite a few tricks to avoid getting hit, but have to burn spell slots to use them. In the meantime, that monster is going to have a hard time even getting to the druid when the druid's eight constrictor snakes have appeared around him. The third level Conjure Animals spell is a cornerstone of the druid class just like the third level Fireball spell is a cornerstone of the wizard class. The fireball will do more damage in round 1, but the conjured animals will quickly out pace that damage well before the spell duration runs out. That's not to say that one is overall worse than the other, just that they're very different styles of play.

[Citan]

Well, I was more looking at the issue mentioned (that of a flying creature able to avoid most of a Druid's cc effects). it occurred to me that a Druid could alter his spell list to take a spell that was more effective against fliers. However, I then realised that there was really only one such spell (Earthbind), and it was pretty naff even then. :smalltongue:

I appreciate that swapping out spells can be more useful in other circumstances, and it's nice that Druids automatically have access to their entire spell lists.

However, I'm not sure I'd put that much faith into information gathering. I can only speak for the campaigns I've participated in, but there have been a *lot* of times when the information we could gather was sketchy at best, entirely absent, or completely wrong. Not to mention the times when we had information on one villain or such, but then got ambushed/derailed dealing with something unexpected that we had basically no information on.

Hence, regardless of information, I'd still be swapping out very few spells - as I'd want to keep a core of generally useful spells at all times (rather than relying on more niche spells that are hopefully good against what we're supposed to be up against).

Again, I appreciate that others might have better luck gathering information in their respective campaigns, in which case I can see why they'd rate this ability much higher.
Funny how your experience differs than mine (well, mine when I'm a player... As a DM I have two groups, one of them totally disregards the whole concept of information gathering XD).

Totally agree that in essence you will still keep somewhere between 50% and 80% of your prepared spell list consistent over days... :)

[tieren]

I have a question regarding playstyles.

I get moon druids concentrating on something then wildshaping to join the battle.

What do land druids do? Do you try to plink away with cantrips? I picture a more aggressive caster going shillelagh and PAM or something? Or do you dip ranger for some archery or something to stay away from melee?

I have interest in playing a land druid, but I picture him as more of a scrapper, even though the inherent risks of then losing concentration.

[sambojin]

Hold person, entangle and sleet storm tend to be pretty universally useful CC spells.

Paralyzed, restrained or prone+concentration check tends to nerf flight's advantages. Not always, but they're useful enough that they're worth a spot on your list at the appropriate levels if you've ever got a prepared slot spare. You'll probably have 1/3 or 2/3 of them on any given day, on top of conjure animals. They're good enough against lots of stuff that they're not niche at all.

Quite a few druid spells are "It can do *this*, or alternatively, you can use it for *that*. Therefore it takes a damage nerf." Wind Wall is probably the best example. I've only ever used it exclusively as a defensive spell once. Mostly it's just mini-chain-lightning (I've heard it referred to as "damage snake" in one podcast). Very occasionally the wall stays up for a turn if ranged casters want to move in behind it, but mostly I just drop concentration immediately so as to not annoy our shooters. It doesn't look like an instant damage spell, but that's what I use it for mostly. Hitting 3-4 out of 6-7 things for 3d8 is a perfectly acceptable use of an action, especially if those things are surrounding a caster or melee fighter. Sleet Storm at least has the decency to look like an anti-air spell, while also being a terrain control and anti-caster spell.

(note: sleet storm should be able to be used mid-air, it just misses out on the difficult terrain part of the spell. There's nothing saying the cylinder must touch the ground. Entangle does need to be used before they're flying, but oh well.)

[Beechgnome]

I have a question regarding playstyles.

I get moon druids concentrating on something then wildshaping to join the battle.

What do land druids do? Do you try to plink away with cantrips? I picture a more aggressive caster going shillelagh and PAM or something? Or do you dip ranger for some archery or something to stay away from melee?

I have interest in playing a land druid, but I picture him as more of a scrapper, even though the inherent risks of then losing concentration.

You can scrap, and depending on the party you may have to, but ideally when you are land you are mixing attacking cantrips with healing, non-con buffs and, if needed, whatever non-con big attacks (thunderwave, erupting earth, tidal wave, blight, ice storm, etc) you got. In general, I do whatever seems needed, and if we seem good, I like to muck up enemies with thorn whip or plink away with Magic stones if they have bludgeoning vulnerability.

[Beelzebubba]

What do land druids do? Do you try to plink away with cantrips? I picture a more aggressive caster going shillelagh and PAM or something? Or do you dip ranger for some archery or something to stay away from melee?

Wood Elf Land Druid here:

If we get the drop: Control spell (Entangle, Spike Growth, etc.) to divide and conquer
If we don't: Advantage spell (Faerie Fire, Heat Metal, Hold Person) to help the martials knock 'em down
If I feel safe from melee: Call Lightning, Conjure Animals for big damage

While holding that down... take cover from missile weapons, kite martials, plink away with a bow or cantrip, rescue others with Dispel Magic or Restoration, hand out healing potions, throw a few Ice Knives, or absolutely go ham nova with Erupting Earth or Lightning Bolt

I also sometimes do things like 'run ahead to open the trap door for us' or 'ignite the pool of oil (thanks to the dry torch inside and Druidcraft) or whatever

[sambojin]

Pretty much. People may say that Natural Recovery is "weak", but honestly, it's amazing. Where Moon Druids want to deal with 2-3 encounters a day with wildshape, Lands deal with them using extra CC spells (or whatever spells, just like any caster). Druid CC is so universally useful at such low slot levels, that even an extra couple a day changes everything on resource efficiency. Where wizards often want lvl3-5 slots out of their version, you get quite a lot out of lvl1-3 slots from yours, at any level of play.

A V.Human Land Druid with Alertness feat to start with is a very nice character indeed. Going early in the init order is far better for a druid than most other caster related things are for them.

If you're imagining a scrapper, you may be thinking of the wrong thing. Maybe. You can make gishy druids, but you can make a gishy anything.

[Talamare]

Pretty much. People may say that Natural Recovery is "weak", but honestly, it's amazing. Where Moon Druids want to deal with 2-3 encounters a day with wildshape, Lands deal with them using extra CC spells (or whatever spells, just like any caster). Druid CC is so universally useful at such low slot levels, that even an extra couple a day changes everything on resource efficiency.

A V.Human Land Druid with Alertness feat to start with is a very nice character indeed. Going early in the init order is far better for a druid than most other caster related things are for them.

If you're imagining a scrapper, you may be thinking of the wrong thing. Maybe. You can make gishy druids, but you can make a gishy anything.

No one thinks that Natural Recovery is Weak

What people think is Weak is the fact that Wizard's get Natural Recovery as an additional forgettable ability while Land Druids pay one of their core feature slots for it.

Druid bragging = Dude I get Natural Recovery at this level!
Wizard bragging = Oh yea, I got that too, but look at my play defining ability for this level.

I honestly think one of the 'weaknesses' of Druid is the Shapechange Tax.

[Citan]

I have a question regarding playstyles.

I get moon druids concentrating on something then wildshaping to join the battle.

What do land druids do? Do you try to plink away with cantrips? I picture a more aggressive caster going shillelagh and PAM or something? Or do you dip ranger for some archery or something to stay away from melee?

I have interest in playing a land druid, but I picture him as more of a scrapper, even though the inherent risks of then losing concentration.
Didn't play as many Land Druids (or whatever really XD don't play enough to my taste) characters as I would like, really played only one, as a "pure class", and not very high level unfortunately (to get the feeling of class)*.

Let me tell you I never went into melee, although in hindsight it could probably have been fine, but I'm kinda cowardish under 18 AC (especially when pals are counting on my concentration spell). :smalltongue:
Don't underestimate Thorns Whip though: with a Sorcerer/Wizard (Web), Cleric (Spirit Guardians) or your own (Spike Growth, Flaming Sphere, Wall of Fire) to quote a few, forcing enemy to change position can mean a good deal of additional damage. It can also be used defensively too. ;)

Funny how our experiences differ regarding Wind Wall: I almost always use it defensively. XD
Now, I would perfectly envision a Land Druid as a melee character provided you bump defense and concentration one way or another. ;)


*I played a DMPC in a one-shot that was basically just a massive tactical fight, in which I made a stupid but extremely deadly Druid / Sorcerer lvl 7 multiclass. Twinning Thorns Whip was great fun ^^.

[sambojin]

@Talamare. It kind of is. Sort of. Even as a Moon, wildshape only isn't the best way of playing at higher levels. You'll often be using it exactly like any other druid would at levels 8-15, with only a couple of encounters a day being super-meat-bagged by you. It's great early, but spells are often "better" later on. But, it's an extra resource, just like natural recovery, totems and super summons, etc, are for the other subclasses. And it let's you blow druid slots on decent casting, because you've always got a backup plan as a Moon. Essentially a resourceless one.

But still, I don't really look at it as a "tax" for any druid subclass. I tend to think of it as a "free" resource. Which it pretty much is. 2/short rest free spell that's very versatile. Probably equivalent to a lvl2-3 spell, which is a nice amount to have extra each day, even if you only use it once or twice each day. Moons use it to not care about slots as much (they slotlessly or low-slotted at least a couple of encounters a day), and the rest just have it as a free multipurpose spell on-call for the situations it's useful for (while getting extra "castery" things to even out the resource discrepancies between subclasses).

Not sure if that's a "tax".

Unless you think they nerfed the spell list as payment for this ability/cheap spell. But all druids get something pretty nice at lvl2-3, just like everyone else. Wildshape is kind of on top of that, not instead of it. It sort of makes up for the "crappy" spell list, I guess. I don't think it was the cause of it. The spell list is actually pretty good.

Natural Recovery and always prepared land spells are a Land's "thing". And they get wildshape. Just because it's core to wizards doesn't necessarily make wizards "better" for having it as a class rather than subclass thing. I'd take core wildshape+land NR over plenty of the lvl2 wizard ribbons+core NR any day, as an odd comparison. It could be as easily argued that many lvl2 wizard subclass abilities got "taxed" because they get NR as core (I'm not. Some are really good. But some aren't). Consistency of power between classes, or even various subclasses within them, is not exactly WotC's strongpoint.

[Citan]

No one thinks that Natural Recovery is Weak

What people think is Weak is the fact that Wizard's get Natural Recovery as an additional forgettable ability while Land Druids pay one of their core feature slots for it.

Druid bragging = Dude I get Natural Recovery at this level!
Wizard bragging = Oh yea, I got that too, but look at my play defining ability for this level.

I honestly think one of the 'weaknesses' of Druid is the Shapechange Tax.
Oh... Okay. When put like that I totally understand. ;)
People may have wanted maybe something like an extra cantrip tied to the environment choice or extra speed in that environment or something else in that spirit of translating fluff into mechanical benefit I guess then?

[Chaosmancer]

In regards to long term spells like call lightning, speaking from an experience with the old UA storm sorcerer, it is excellent for dealing with large groups of minions.

I guess not a lot of DMs use large groups of weak enemies, but smarter enemies tend not to clump up for fireballs, and you're wasting that extra damage. Call lightning is more likely to hit more enemies over the course of the fight, and only costs a single spell slot.

I've also found them to be equal if not better than clerics in killing undead. Moonbeam makes vampires weep, cause it forces shapeshifters to stay in their original form, meaning a vampire who mists at zero hp is instantly killed because they are not mist. Sunbeam needs little explanation, strong radiant damage repeated every turn. I always wish clerics had it.

I will say though, druids multiclass into far more annoying and powerful characters, either with monk for moon druids or cleric synergies (tempest, life,maybe even war with the spore druid)

[sambojin]

Yep. And not only that, the cleric dip lets them "slot-shift" a heap. Cleric spells can often be an absolute replacement for druid spells, which sounds like a bad thing, but it just means you'll only only ever have 1-2 actual druid spells prepared as lvl1 spells. With your 4-6 prepared cleric spells covering any weakness, or subbing in for "sort of does the same thing", giving you a plethora of lvl1 spells prepared. Which gives you a heap more versatility in what you prepare in your druid slots, but now using higher level spells however you want, instead of having to cover all those lower level uses.

Basically gives you an extra 4-6 prepared spells, at least a minimum of 3-4 of them being useful at any level (or that you would have prepared out of your druid allowance anyway), so you *can* pick and choose plenty of nice druid gubbins out of your now larger prepared allowance for the bigger stuff.

You also get the cleric thingy, but the prepared spells thing is the really powerful thing in the dip. Doesn't really matter if it's dipped early or late, but there are better times to clear/upscale your druid spell list into awesome territory.

[Gardakan]

Yep. And not only that, the cleric dip lets them "slot-shift" a heap. Cleric spells can often be an absolute replacement for druid spells, which sounds like a bad thing, but it just means you'll only only ever have 1-2 actual druid spells prepared as lvl1 spells. With your 4-6 prepared cleric spells covering any weakness, or subbing in for "sort of does the same thing", giving you a plethora of lvl1 spells prepared. Which gives you a heap more versatility in what you prepare in your druid slots, but now using higher level spells however you want, instead of having to cover all those lower level uses.

Basically gives you an extra 4-6 prepared spells, at least a minimum of 3-4 of them being useful at any level (or that you would have prepared out of your druid allowance anyway), so you *can* pick and choose plenty of nice druid gubbins out of your now larger prepared allowance.

You also get the cleric thingy, but the prepared spells thing is the really powerful thing in the dip. Doesn't really matter if it's dipped early or late, but there are better times to clear/upscale your druid spell list into awesome territory.

Cleric spells doesn't cover Druid weaknesses.

Druid spells are quite useful on their own. Comparing two classes that are differently designed is pointless.

[sambojin]

Wasn't comparing them. Just explaining why cleric is such a good dip for druids.

It's not so much different from Cha classes dipping other Cha classes. But with full spell lists, and somewhat similar ones at level one in function if not form, it's a prepared spell dip as much as it is a "get a cleric thingy" dip.

Usually what druids need is more druid levels. But if you were going to dip one level into any other class, cleric has WAY more advantages than is apparent due being able to shift at least a few druid prepared spells to whatever you want.

[Gardakan]

Wasn't comparing them. Just explaining why cleric is such a good dip for druids.

It's not so much different from Cha classes dipping other Cha classes. But with full spell lists, and somewhat similar ones at level one in function if not form, it's a prepared spell dip as much as it is a "get a cleric thingy" dip.

It's better dipping two levels in Paladin if you want absolutely these kind of spells. Getting access to Divine Smite really helps the Druid to scale past level 6-10 power spikes.

Druid can also burn spells slot for healing if you pick Moon. Pairing this + Paladin Divine Smite is actually an efficient way to work out this mechanic (that was designed within the class).

[sambojin]

I'd have to say that Moon WS healing is possibly one of the worst uses you can make of spell slots. IMO.

Pally smite is a nice use of them though.

Cleric just changes what higher level spells you have access to on any given day. Which is incredibly useful for a class whose main strength is versatility.

I'd dip 1 Cleric level rather than 2 Pally, even as a Moon, any time. The headroom it gives you on prepared spells is amazing. And, it gives you a clericy thing.

If you're going to sacrifice a level in a full casting class (or one who's combat ability is scaled directly off class levels), you'd better get something good out of it. Cleric gives "versatile druid casting", still a full casting level (even if you don't get new spells, you get to prepare 2-4 higher level ones, and druid spells either scale weirdly or don't), and you get a cleric thing (you get a frogurt). It's the only "not a trap" dip there is for later level play, unless you're dipping fighter for Action Surge for Moon (2lvl dip though). Monk 1 or Pally 2 is still debatable as a trap for Moon. Cleric 1 (any) actually gives you "more, versatile casting" for any druid, even if it may not be as good as just another druid level in some cases. But it's a really good dip.

If you want, grab a character creator. Plan out your prepared spells for a day with 16-20 Wis as a druid. Then do it again, with -1 druid level and one level of cleric. Don't double them up. Better at high levels, but useful at many. It's not actually a theoretical thing. You just end up with a core cleric spell set, and a "Imma gonna druid the hell outta this" spell set, that you can change up every day. It's incredibly good if you've ever done it in actual play.

There's a reason there's no other Int based full caster class using half the wizard spell list. Spell preparation slots. Fortunately, there is two Wis based ones, using each other's, exactly like that :)

[Beelzebubba]

I'd have to say that Moon WS healing is possibly one of the worst uses you can make of spell slots. IMO.

Pally smite is a nice use of them though.

Cleric just changes what higher level spells you have access to on any given day. Which is incredibly useful for a class whose main strength is versatility.

I'd dip 1 Cleric level rather than 2 Pally, even as a Moon, any time. The headroom it gives you on prepared spells is amazing. And, it gives you a clericy thing.

If you're going to sacrifice a level in a full casting class (or one who's combat ability is scaled directly off class levels), you'd better get something good out of it. Cleric gives "versatile druid casting", still a full casting level (even if you don't get new spells, you get to prepare 2-4 higher level ones, and druid spells either scale weirdly or don't), and you get a cleric thing (you get a frogurt). It's the only "not a trap" dip there is for later level play. Monk 1 or Pally 2 is still debatable as a trap for Moon. Cleric 1 (any) actually gives you "more, versatile casting" for any druid, even if it may not be as good as just another druid level in some cases. But it's a really good dip.

If you want, grab a character creator. Plan out your prepared spells for a day with 18-20 Wis as a druid. Then do it again, with -1 druid level and one level of cleric. Don't double them up. Better at high levels, but useful at many. It's not actually a theoretical thing. You just end up with a core cleric spell set, and a "Imma gonna druid the hell outta this" spell set, that you can change up every day. It's incredibly good if you've ever done it in actual play.

Yeah, I'm sold on that too. It basically doubles your effective Wis mod for spells known, and adds an embarrassing number of cantrips, so you go from:

Druid 6:
4 Cantrips
4 Domain + 6 Level +3 Wisdom = 13 Spells Prepped

to

Druid 5 Cleric 1:
7 Cantrips
6 Domain +6 level +6 Wisdom = 18 Spells Prepped

Keep several useful rituals always known (Detect Magic, Detect Poison and Disease, Speak with Animals), add Guiding Bolt, a Channel Divinity, and the Cleric domain extra goodness.

I'm probably going Mountain Druid / Tempest Cleric.

[sambojin]

That probably put it better than I ever could.

But the main thing is there's 2 domain, 3+'ish Wis, 1 cleric level spells prepared, all just there forever. All pretty useful spells, by and large, even as lvl1 spells. Some of them slot scale, some of them don't have to. So you've got 10+ druid spells to go ham with on your versatility. Hard not to have an answer to a problem with that.

Your example is "early'ish", but typifies the point. You'll always have stuff that you can do. It's almost like "reverse-sorcerer". They so dumb.

(note: you don't get an actual Channel Divinity. Just the lvl1 cleric thing. Still good.

*******
And, ummm, rituals take a long time. Just grab the "really useful" ones. You've got Guidance, and room for Resistance. It's still handy to un-slot things, but there's a lot of things that don't come up, until your DM knows you've got them as rituals to counteract "that thing". It's comparatively better to not have them think "that's a thing you can do". Because if you don't, then they never do them to your party, or you'd die unfairly if they did)

[Beechgnome]

The other thing about Cleric 1/Druid X is that as you level up druid, you are also going likely raising your wisdom at 4th, 8th. So that will boost both not only your druid spells known, but also your cleric spells known.

So a Cleric 1/Land druid 9 with 20 wisdom would have:

8 (!) 1st level cleric spells (2 domain + 1 for level + 5 WIS); and
22 druid spells (8 circle + 9 level + 5 Wis).

Yup, 30 spells to choose from.

Excuse me, my sorcerer is just going to start drinking now.

[sambojin]

Hey! Some of them are auto choices. We just know them anyway! Just for existing. It's like we have magic in us. Almost as much as you do...... Oh......

*Passes the jug to the Sorcerer*

"Cantrippsssss. Dooooo yyyyyyuiisssse kknoowww, aboutsa the trippies? Hahahahhahahahaha. Thems. Can I'sssss have somef frroguuuurttt???"

"No. You get Sorcadin. Clericy frogurt always makes you grumpy."

"But I'sssss wwwantssss tha Frogurt! Everything elssse, it's like *hick!* monkey paw!"

"Fine. You can have Divine Soul or something. But you have to treat it nice."

"Bbbbbbuuuuuutttttt, that's not clericy frogurt at allllll.......... "
*Sobs*

[JellyPooga]

The inevitable downside of the Cleric dip is the delay in the raw power of higher level spells. Now don't get me wrong, the Druid list actually has some of the better scaling spells for up-casting; I love me some upcast Moonbeam (that thing is terrifyingly efficient in the right hands), Fog Cloud is like Darkness except better in almost every way and the Conjure X spells have already been discussed. But...there's really no substitute for having a higher level spell as opoosed to just having a higher level spell slot.

[Dr. Cliché]

I have a question regarding playstyles.

I get moon druids concentrating on something then wildshaping to join the battle.

What do land druids do? Do you try to plink away with cantrips? I picture a more aggressive caster going shillelagh and PAM or something? Or do you dip ranger for some archery or something to stay away from melee?

I have interest in playing a land druid, but I picture him as more of a scrapper, even though the inherent risks of then losing concentration.

My current Land Druid, having cast a concentration spell, will:
- Use a ranged cantrip
- Plink away with a bow
- Or go melee with Shillelagh

However, two of these are mainly possible due to the campaign we're in being rather... unusual.

For example, I normally wouldn't bother with the bow, except that we were basically all given a bunch of +3 weapons.

Likewise, I normally wouldn't bother with Shillelagh, except that some of us got some permanent bonuses - including extra melee damage.

Normally, I'd probably favour a ranged cantrip of some sort or other.



I honestly think one of the 'weaknesses' of Druid is the Shapechange Tax.

Honestly, this is why Moon Druids are still my favourite kind -because they can actually get some real mileage out of this class feature (along with the ones that go with it).

I know that other Druids can still get some use out of it (e.g. using it to scout or fly), but a lot of the time it just ends up feeling like a ribbon ability. And this is the ability your capstone is tied to.

To be clear, I really like Wild Shape in concept - I just wish it was a core part of all druids, not just one specific kind. Though, in any case, I've always thought it would make far more sense on a Ranger subclass than on the Druid.



I'd have to say that Moon WS healing is possibly one of the worst uses you can make of spell slots. IMO.

I wonder if Wild Shape initially worked like it did in 3.5, wherein you shared your hp pool with your animal forms (i.e. if you take damage when you transform, you'll retain that damage when you turn back). Perhaps this ability was made for that, but then Wild Shape got changed and this ability stayed the same.

Just taking a wild guess here. Otherwise this is just a really weird ability in general. I guess it could be useful if you desperately need to stay in Wild Shape (e.g. if you're in Giant Eagle form, 200ft up and being shot by archers), but even then you're relying on them not being able to kill/incapacitate you in one round and on healing enough to make a difference.

[JellyPooga]

I know that other Druids can still get some use out of it (e.g. using it to scout or fly), but a lot of the time it just ends up feeling like a ribbon ability. And this is the ability your capstone is tied to.

To be clear, I really like Wild Shape in concept - I just wish it was a core part of all druids, not just one specific kind. Though, in any case, I've always thought it would make far more sense on a Ranger subclass than on the Druid.

I actually wish Wild Shape was not a core Druid concept at all, but tied to specific subclasses. I love the Druid spell list, but the only way to access it is to be a shapeshifter? What's all that about? Yes, you can just not use the ability, but it feels like a waste of design space to include something that significant that won't necessarily fit a range of concepts (like a Fighter can choose not to use Heavy Armour, but having Heavy Armour Proficiency adds to the notion of the character being an all-round well-trained fighting kinda guy, but with the Druid it's like, you're not allowed to be just a spellcasting nature guy; it's a core concept that all spellcasting nature guys can change shape, thems the rules).

That said, I actually really like non-Moon Wild Shaping for a lot of characters. The utility of it is insane. Yeah, Moon Druids have got the combat application, but Land (or any other Circle for that matter) doesn't lose out on any of the non-combat application; Wild Shape into a mouse or cat for stealth and spying, into a draught horse to lug stuff around, or a racing horse for speed. How about a fish or a frog to go swimming or diving (from level 4)? A spider to climb (any level) or a bird to fly (from 8th). Twice a day. Until you really start thinking in that Wild Shape mindset, it's easy to overlook the possibilities and if you ignore it as a ribbon feature, that's all it will be. If you actually start using it, you'd be surprised at how often it comes in handy.

[Dr. Cliché]

I actually wish Wild Shape was not a core Druid concept at all, but tied to specific subclasses. I love the Druid spell list, but the only way to access it is to be a shapeshifter? What's all that about? Yes, you can just not use the ability, but it feels like a waste of design space to include something that significant that won't necessarily fit a range of concepts (like a Fighter can choose not to use Heavy Armour, but having Heavy Armour Proficiency adds to the notion of the character being an all-round well-trained fighting kinda guy, but with the Druid it's like, you're not allowed to be just a spellcasting nature guy; it's a core concept that all spellcasting nature guys can change shape, thems the rules).

I suppose I see it as a core feature simply because it's one of the few things that makes Druids unique, outside of just having some different spells.

But yeah, I wouldn't mind Wild Shape being limited to a subclass.

As I said, I actually think it would be a far better fit for a Ranger Subclass.


That said, I actually really like non-Moon Wild Shaping for a lot of characters. The utility of it is insane. Yeah, Moon Druids have got the combat application, but Land (or any other Circle for that matter) doesn't lose out on any of the non-combat application; Wild Shape into a mouse or cat for stealth and spying, into a draught horse to lug stuff around, or a racing horse for speed. How about a fish or a frog to go swimming or diving (from level 4)? A spider to climb (any level) or a bird to fly (from 8th). Twice a day. Until you really start thinking in that Wild Shape mindset, it's easy to overlook the possibilities and if you ignore it as a ribbon feature, that's all it will be. If you actually start using it, you'd be surprised at how often it comes in handy.

It's not that it doesn't have uses per se, it's that it doesn't really go with anything else. For example, you're a full caster but you can't cast while Wild Shaped until basically the end of your career. And even then I'm not sure how much difference it will make, given how little it takes to knock you back to human form.

Another aspect is that a lot of the uses you suggest either require very specific circumstances or else require the rest of the party to fend for themselves anyway. For example, if you turn yourself into a fish to avoid having to cast Water Breathing... well what's the rest of the party going to do? Is there some very specific thing that you can do underwater with no limbs? If you're trying to find a passage for the party, then they're going to need a way to follow you. If you're looking for treasure, you're going to need a way to collect it afterwards. Basically, you're going to need to cast Water Breathing at some point anyway, so you might as well have just done that to begin with.

Again, not saying there are no uses (scouting is fair, for example, though it might irritate the Rogue if he feels he's put all those points in Stealth for nothing :smallwink:). Just that many of the uses seem to involve pretty specific circumstances.

Finally, there's the matter of individual personality. For example, I think many characters would balk at the idea of turning into a draft horse and having a cart attached to them. :smalltongue:

[Strangways]

I have a question regarding playstyles.

I get moon druids concentrating on something then wildshaping to join the battle.

What do land druids do? Do you try to plink away with cantrips? I picture a more aggressive caster going shillelagh and PAM or something? Or do you dip ranger for some archery or something to stay away from melee?

I have interest in playing a land druid, but I picture him as more of a scrapper, even though the inherent risks of then losing concentration.

Moonbeam, then use a combination of moving the Moonbeam or Thornwhip (depending on the positioning of the enemies) to herd as many enemies into the Moonbeam as possible every round.

[Beechgnome]

The inevitable downside of the Cleric dip is the delay in the raw power of higher level spells. Now don't get me wrong, the Druid list actually has some of the better scaling spells for up-casting; I love me some upcast Moonbeam (that thing is terrifyingly efficient in the right hands), Fog Cloud is like Darkness except better in almost every way and the Conjure X spells have already been discussed. But...there's really no substitute for having a higher level spell as opoosed to just having a higher level spell slot.

Erupting earth is another that scales great (d12s and all). Agreed higher is usually better, but that's really the trade-off: higher level spells (and class abilities/asis) one level sooner vs. 6 to 8 extra Cleric spells to choose from and whatever the cleric's first level domain power is. There are times I'll do it, and times I won't.

[Tanarii]

Fog Cloud is like Darkness except better in almost every wayDarkness can be cast on an object and then moved around. That's enough to make all the ways it is inferior balance out.

Also if you can see out of it but not into it, it's considerably different. Ruling dependent on DM noticing unlike previous editions, it doesn't say the darkness blocks sight, only dark vision. Most DMs don't notice this, or assume it works like older editions.


I actually wish Wild Shape was not a core Druid concept at all, but tied to specific subclasses.
Me too. I clearly didn't see enough 3e Druids because I didn't remember while shape being this big defining thing of Druids until 4e. Heck, it might have even come about in AD&D. I just didn't really pay attention to the class in general until 4e.

[JellyPooga]

Darkness can be cast on an object and then moved around. That's enough to make all the ways it is inferior balance out.

I did say "almost" every way :smallwink: I do like me some Fog Cloud scaling though; that thing gets big real fast.


Me too. I clearly didn't see enough 3e Druids because I didn't remember while shape being this big defining thing of Druids until 4e. Heck, it might have even come about in AD&D. I just didn't really pay attention to the class in general until 4e.

Wild Shape in 3ed was a different beast (pun intended). For one, there were plenty of options to change it out for other features or utilise it in other ways through feats and such (not to the extent of Turn Undead, but it was there). That let you tailor your druid to the exact fit you wanted instead being forced to be an shapeshifter.

I can't comment on 4ed. Wasn't my bag.

[Citan]

It's not that it doesn't have uses per se, it's that it doesn't really go with anything else. For example, you're a full caster but you can't cast while Wild Shaped until basically the end of your career. And even then I'm not sure how much difference it will make, given how little it takes to knock you back to human form.

It comes very late for a reason. You trump basically everyone else except Wizards and maybe Subtle Sorcerers when you get that.

Simply because Wild Shape is not an effect coming from a spell and you can cast "subtlely" while wildshaped.

So once you start travelling as a bird high in the sky among a flock migrating, or as a squirrel hiding in a tree, or as a wandering dog in a group looking for food in streets (like, "everything is normal") and suddenly hectoliters of water crash on guys (Tidal Wave) or lightning erupts from high in the sky (Call Lightning), badly hurting "per simple coincidence", or the big boss of local thugs feels he cannot make any movement anymore (Hold Person), your enemies will have much trouble 1) realizing what's happening and 2) identifying what and where you are to try and stop the spell. ;)

And this is only the surface of everything stupidly good you can achieve by being an "animagi". ^^

Of course high level casters do have some ways of identifying and probably traps or security measures, so having this ability is not an insta-win, not by a long margin. But as far as "pulling off great things that would be normally very difficult to do (without much set-up or time anyways)" you are a leader.


If I had a player that really is frustrated he will never get a chance to play with these things, I would have no problem...
- either say that Sorcerer's Subtle makes him able to mimick that (since you don't need sound, movements and materials anymore, the "you can use your features provided your animal form is physically capable of doing so" is made valid when using it).
- or make a special Circle in which he gets Wild shape as bonus action* (but no better CR) at lvl 2, along with two level 1 spells of his choice that are his signature spell (so he can subtlecast its), then at level 6 he can subtle cast any spell of a level no higher than Druid level / 4, rounded down.



* That's really my only gripe with non-Moon Druids: I get the fluff reason but I think people would love much more Wild Shaping if you were able, as any Druid, to cast a "main" spell then shape in the same turn. Even with only 1/4 CR creatures, there are still some great things to pull off. ;)

[Beelzebubba]

So once you start travelling as a bird high in the sky among a flock migrating, or as a squirrel hiding in a tree, or as a wandering dog in a group looking for food in streets (like, "everything is normal") and suddenly hectoliters of water crash on guys (Tidal Wave) or lightning erupts from high in the sky (Call Lightning), badly hurting "per simple coincidence", or the big boss of local thugs feels he cannot make any movement anymore (Hold Person), your enemies will have much trouble 1) realizing what's happening and 2) identifying what and where you are to try and stop the spell. ;)

Of course high level casters do have some ways of identifying and probably traps or security measures,...

Well, True Seeing, then Finger of Death or Disintegrate together are bad news. Basically insta-dead for the Druid. And, they don't get Death Ward, or Counterspell, so I hope they have a Paladin or Cleric friend.

[Strangways]

Well, True Seeing, then Finger of Death or Disintegrate together are bad news. Basically insta-dead for the Druid. And, they don't get Death Ward, or Counterspell, so I hope they have a Paladin or Cleric friend.

Finger of Death, Disintegrate and Counterspell all have half the range of Call Lightning and they’re not insta death for the Druid at that level anyway. A Druid 100’ above the Wizard, who is casting spells while in Air Elemental form, is a fearsome opponent.

[Tanarii]

I did say "almost" every way :smallwink: I do like me some Fog Cloud scaling though; that thing gets big real fast.Don't get me wrong, I personally think Fog Cloud is typically superior to Darkness. But the movability thing opens up entirely different sets of tactics for it, so it's an important difference worth noting.

[hymer]

Finger of Death, Disintegrate and Counterspell all have half the range of Call Lightning and they’re not insta death for the Druid at that level anyway. A Druid 100’ above the Wizard, who is casting spells while in Air Elemental form, is a fearsome opponent.

I've followed this debate with considerable interest, but I feel something gets a little missed in this comparison of who-can-kill-who.

The power level of a PC isn't very usefully measured in its ability to kill another PC. It's in dealing with the game world and its NPCs.

[Talamare]

Re-Design Druids so that they make a choice between Druid of the Land and Druid of the Moon at Level 1
Druid of the Land works basically the same, but completely loses the ability to shapeshift
Druid of the Moon works basically the same

Then similar to Warlock, at level 3 they choose between
Circle of Dreams, Circle of the Shepherd, and other new Circles

-> "But ability XXX would be broken because of one of your changes."
Probably, but its a complete redesign so anything that would be broken afterwards would be adjusted as necessary.

This is similar to how Warlocks work; in that they choose a Path at both level 1, and at level 3.

[Chaosmancer]

I wonder if Wild Shape initially worked like it did in 3.5, wherein you shared your hp pool with your animal forms (i.e. if you take damage when you transform, you'll retain that damage when you turn back). Perhaps this ability was made for that, but then Wild Shape got changed and this ability stayed the same.

Just taking a wild guess here. Otherwise this is just a really weird ability in general. I guess it could be useful if you desperately need to stay in Wild Shape (e.g. if you're in Giant Eagle form, 200ft up and being shot by archers), but even then you're relying on them not being able to kill/incapacitate you in one round and on healing enough to make a difference.

I think it is more meant for elemental forms post level 10. Fire elementals can output signifigant damage, and all elementals are relatively beefy with immunity to poison and resistance to non-magic damage. I could see passing on some 1st and 2nd spells to keep that up

[Citan]

I've followed this debate with considerable interest, but I feel something gets a little missed in this comparison of who-can-kill-who.

The power level of a PC isn't very usefully measured in its ability to kill another PC. It's in dealing with the game world and its NPCs.
That was indeed totally the context of my post.
But since Beelze brought the topic...


Well, True Seeing, then Finger of Death or Disintegrate together are bad news. Basically insta-dead for the Druid. And, they don't get Death Ward, or Counterspell, so I hope they have a Paladin or Cleric friend.
1. True Seeing is a 6th level spell, so you could cast it multiple times indeed, but it's kinda costly to do so. Since it's 1-hour long, the only way to benefit from it whole day would be to use a Simulacrum and blow all your 6th levels and 7th levels. Quite costly.

And if you don't maintain it, this means you won't EVER know that a high-level Druid is close to you and potentially threatening unless you hired a high-level creature that has true sight or Druid is fearless enough (stupid enough?) to venture into one of your overly secured lairs. In all other cases, you'll react after Druid already cast at least one spell. That may mean very bad trouble.

2. Finger of Death: not only is the range of that spell ridiculous against a creature that has fly and several spells with a range above 120 feet, but even with failed save and decent luck on damage roll amounting to 70 HP, you will badly hurt, but certainly don't endanger a Druid that will have at the very strict minimum (8+3)+(100+60) HP, not accounting for small or potentially big (Moon) additional HP from the beast.
Especially since Druid has Foresight and would most probably cast it if he were to engage a high-level Wizard. ^^
(On that note, since Wizard also has it, it would be also hard for Druid to endanger Wizard ^^).
(Same fun could be told about both Shapechanging XD).
You'd need double upcast Finger of Death from you and Simulacrum, both succeeding with luck on rolls, to down the Druid in one turn. Otherwise, you'll certainly have showed him to know better than threaten you, but you won't kill him because nobody can stop any reasonable Druid from fleeing (Shapechange into a resilient and speedy beast, or use Transport With Plants to instantly escape -unless you are stupid enough to use it close enough for Wizard to follow ^^-, or just Dash upwards as a high-speed flyer).

3. Disintegrate is certainly more dangerous thanks to the "rider" that would insta-kill at least a non-Moon Druid, but besides the range problem, Druid could cast a Wall of Fire -which is *opaque* per the description, so even truesight won't help here- or try a gamble with Sunburst (although, I'd expect a Wizard that won't open fight with Meteor Swarm to not do that because he cast Foresight so chances of success would be low).

In fact I think each class can kill the other, but can only kill it by attacking in an unsuspected way because otherwise you can probably find counters for everything.
Meteor Swarm in particular: if Druid don't know you're coming for him or you manage to surprise him, and it's not a Moon Druid, you have a fairly good chance to down him directly.
In any other cases enter Primordial Ward or Investiture of Flame (let's be honest, Absorb Elements *may* be enough, but only with some luck ^^).

[Strangways]

I think it is more meant for elemental forms post level 10. Fire elementals can output signifigant damage, and all elementals are relatively beefy with immunity to poison and resistance to non-magic damage. I could see passing on some 1st and 2nd spells to keep that up

If you're in a form with damage resistance against the type of damage being done to you, then every spell slot spent to heal yourself effectively doubles in value. That plus the fact that you can do it as a bonus action while still attacking with your main action can make it worthwhile to use when you need to maintain your Wildshape in combat.

[Strangways]

I've followed this debate with considerable interest, but I feel something gets a little missed in this comparison of who-can-kill-who.

The power level of a PC isn't very usefully measured in its ability to kill another PC. It's in dealing with the game world and its NPCs.

I do think that threads along the lines of "who wins in a 1 v 1" aren't particularly useful. The answer is always heavily dependent on a large number of variables, including the levels involved, their subclasses and feats, whether either party has advance notice of the combat, which spells the casters happen to have prepared, their distance at the start of combat, their environment (flat plain, rocky terrain, darkness, fog etc) and who wins initiative. Adjust those variables and you get different outcomes. I just wanted to point out that having Disintegrate, Finger of Death and Counterspell doesn't mean it's an auto-win for the Wizard against the Druid.