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Wasp
2018-01-20, 05:02 AM
Hello everyone!

Maybe you can help me with a little moral dilemma? I am thinking about playing a changeling in an upcoming game who pretends to be a human or maybe half-elf when the party comes together. I would of course reveal my true nature at an opportune dramatic moment, but ...

From your perspective, would it be OK to withhold this kind of information from the other players (not just the characters)? And state for example: "I am playing a half-elf rogue named Wasp" when introducing the character?

Or is that a big No-no? What do you think?

Yora
2018-01-20, 05:11 AM
If you don't intend to do something that annoys the other players with it, why not?

The problems with this always come from players actively sabotaging the efforts of the other players or steal stuff from their characters. If you're not interfering with their game, I don't see any problem with that.

DeTess
2018-01-20, 05:12 AM
That should be completely fine. I've done the same in a one-shot a while back with no complaints.

Holding back information only becomes problematic if it negatively affects the other players enjoyment (such as not sharing an important plot related info-dump you where given because of your background). Keeping something like this secret shouldn't be an issue.

Edit: swordsage'd.

Mastikator
2018-01-20, 08:35 AM
It's good way to prevent destructive megagaming, but if you use it against the other players it's going to blow up in your face and you will be 100% wrong.

Is it okay to withhold information that the other players shouldn't have? Yes.

Max_Killjoy
2018-01-20, 10:25 AM
There's nothing wrong with withholding this kind of information from the other players, so long as you aren't planning to screw them over with it later.

(Unless it's explicitly the kind of campaign with player buy-in for intraparty betrayal, then anything goes.)

tensai_oni
2018-01-20, 10:26 AM
More than once did I withhold this kind of info from other players, for the sake of an appropriately dramatic reveal. It worked great and like everyone else in the thread said, if it's not done for the purpose of screwing other players over, there's nothing wrong with it.

D+1
2018-01-20, 11:25 AM
I am thinking about playing a changeling in an upcoming game who pretends to be a human or maybe half-elf when the party comes together. I would of course reveal my true nature at an opportune dramatic moment, but ...

From your perspective, would it be OK to withhold this kind of information from the other players (not just the characters)?
As others stated, nothing wrong with it at all as long as you're not trying to take some kind of unfair advantage of players who don't know. But I would have reservations about it anyway. They're going to find out one way or another, yes? It makes a bit of a dramatic moment when the reveal takes place, that's true, but what motivation does the character have for keeping this hidden from their closest friends? Having characters keep secrets is okay, but just be sure there's a decent REASON for the character to do so. Also, "opportune dramatic moments" don't show up on a schedule. Be aware that the moment may not be as dramatic to the other players, nor as opportune as you hoped for. Don't hinge your enjoyment of your character on keeping this VERY fundamental aspect of your character a secret just so you can make a big-splash reveal.

It's just my experience that players often do react somewhat negatively when they find other players are keeping those kind of secrets. It is also certainly a legitimate IN-CHARACTER response that the other characters will react negatively when it is revealed that they've essentially been lied to by your PC, even if the players themselves are okay with it.

Kol Korran
2018-01-20, 12:16 PM
I think this mostly depends on trust, and the other players' personalities...
Some players come for the feeling of camaraderie, of being a team, of everyone working together. It's called the "fellowship" aesthetic, from the 8 aesthetics of gaming. (Basically the experiences/ reasons why different players play). Such players may well find it jars their experience that you intentionally withheld information, ecen if there was no malicious intent. It's the very act of having secrets between players that disturbs their sense of fellowship.

I mention this due having had such a player, with another player much into expression, narrative and long invested character development. (Which led to "dramatic reveals" of secrets and such). This caused ssoooo much friction, which even led to stopping the game a few times, and a feeling of mistrust.

A changeling does raise a lot of suspicions usually, no? The race is defined by secrets and deception (Mostly). I know some players may be very weary of it.

It doesn't need to be rational, or logical. It's a matter of emotion and perspective.
If this reveal IS so important to you, I suggest telling the players before hand "look guys. My character may have a surprise, which I'd like to keeo secret so far, for roleplay reasons only, nothing that's gonna endanger or mess the party. I think it would be cool to play it, and ask you to trust me. Ok?"

Tiadoppler
2018-01-20, 12:28 PM
From your perspective, would it be OK to withhold this kind of information from the other players (not just the characters)? And state for example: "I am playing a half-elf rogue named Wasp" when introducing the character?



When you say "I am playing a half-elf rogue named Wasp" that's an OOC conversation between players, and it's a lie. I would suggest phrasing it differently, with a physical description (for example: Blonde hair, green eyes, giant waxed mustache and slightly pointed ears, wearing dark leather armor and carrying three dozen daggers in sheathes and bandoliers) rather than an absolute statement. Talk about your character in-character. Your character can lie to the other characters. You, the player, should be reluctant to lie to your friends.

Aneurin
2018-01-20, 12:56 PM
It depends on your group, to be honest.

Some people will be fine with this, others won't. A lot of it will come down to play style - a group with an adversarial relationship with their GM (at least during play) will probably oppose this much harder than a group who want to tell a fun story since the adversarial group likely has an 'us against the world' mindset that isn't going to mesh well with surprise reveals and witheld information.

Maybe poke your GM and get them to ask the other players whether they mind having parts of their character's background and goals a secret from the others to come as surprise reveals later? That way you can test the waters (if they say no, obviously don't do it) without actually giving away the reveal.

Darth Ultron
2018-01-20, 03:24 PM
Like others have said, you can do this if you have no intention of screwing over the other players.

But, this also sort of makes it pointless.

You tell the other players your character is a half elf fighter wizard. The others, having no real reason to doubt what you say, just accept it. So the game will roll on and at some point you will go ''surprise everyone''. And what? The other players will be like ''oh, ok, you fooled us'' for like a couple seconds. And then what? Does it really have any payoff?

Pex
2018-01-20, 05:40 PM
Like others have said, you can do this if you have no intention of screwing over the other players.

But, this also sort of makes it pointless.

You tell the other players your character is a half elf fighter wizard. The others, having no real reason to doubt what you say, just accept it. So the game will roll on and at some point you will go ''surprise everyone''. And what? The other players will be like ''oh, ok, you fooled us'' for like a couple seconds. And then what? Does it really have any payoff?

I've experienced players like this many times even with benign intentions as the OP. I think the payoff is to get the emotional satisfaction of the reveal that you fooled everyone. Afterwards it's to feel good on the memory. It's a sense of accomplishment.

Vitruviansquid
2018-01-20, 05:45 PM
Everyone's talking about how it's okay to do this if you don't intend to troll the other players with it. That's good.

I'll also add that you don't want your secret with the GM to end up causing you two to pass notes and go talk in the other room and such so often that it slows the game down. That's the problem with big GM-player secrets. But it doesn't sound like this will be one of those big secrets, so, you know, it's fine.

Quertus
2018-01-20, 06:55 PM
Mostly, I'll just repeat what's already been said. It's fine, in most groups, so long as you have benevolent intentions.

Personally, I try to keep my character sheet hidden from the GM, too, not just the other players. This prevents the GM from accidentally letting the cat out of the bag, or otherwise metagaming.

Back when I started playing, mentioning "metagaming" - the Evil opposite of role-playing - was all it took to get buy-in from most any group. These days, people recognize the positive value good metagaming can have to improve the fun of the game... but fail to recognize the ways that the game is less "real" than it was when players would actually not know a thing, vs now, when they just pretend not to know that thing. That subtle difference in behavior is like choice of spice on food, and matters to my enjoyment of the experience.

But actively lying about your character? No, I'd advise against that.

Alcore
2018-01-20, 07:20 PM
With mature, fully rational and no phycological hangups players? Yes! Go for it! But a whole room of people is unlikely to not run afoul with at least one of those items.


Remember to use exact words. Otherwise you might truly lie to them (them = the players. Characters don't count. Ever); it breaks trust, even if on a minor note, and you have to reearn it.

tensai_oni
2018-01-20, 09:27 PM
Like others have said, you can do this if you have no intention of screwing over the other players.

But, this also sort of makes it pointless.

You tell the other players your character is a half elf fighter wizard. The others, having no real reason to doubt what you say, just accept it. So the game will roll on and at some point you will go ''surprise everyone''. And what? The other players will be like ''oh, ok, you fooled us'' for like a couple seconds. And then what? Does it really have any payoff?

So you never encountered a good twist/surprise reveal in a story before? Because this is exactly that, only in the medium not of books, movies or video games, but roleplaying.

Trust me, if executed well the payoff is far more than just other players being surprised for a few seconds.

Thrudd
2018-01-21, 12:18 AM
So you never encountered a good twist/surprise reveal in a story before? Because this is exactly that, only in the medium not of books, movies or video games, but roleplaying.

Trust me, if executed well the payoff is far more than just other players being surprised for a few seconds.
Meh. In this case, I don't see how this scenario can really be a significant "twist". He's a player, not the DM. It's impossible to keep the ability secret if you want to use it.
Some time in the first couple sessions, he'll use his power and everyone will go "whaaat? You were a changeling and not an elf? Well how about that." And it's over. Unless he's constantly passing secret notes back and forth with the DM, or leaving the party mysteriously all the time, in which case everyone will know something fishy's going on anyway.

Unless it's a PvP game and the first time you reveal it is to take someone out, there's little point trying to keep secret the race of your character or one of its major powers.

Role-playing is not the same sort of medium as film, books or video games. The GM can introduce significant surprises and twists- the players not so much. Unless a player and the GM are more like co-GM, and planning the game together with one of them acting as "infiltrator" in the party.

I'm not worried about offending others with the hidden character race/power. I don't think anyone would really care. And that's the problem- no one cares about your character but you. So who is this big surprise supposed to impress? It just never turns out to have the impact you'd hope (or any impact), IME. Go ahead and do it, tell everyone you're an elf, but don't expect any sort of reaction when you reveal.

Pelle
2018-01-21, 07:21 AM
I agree, the twist doesn't seem that interesting as presented. I think it needs to have certain implications so that the other players need to make fun/tough choices. Maybe if changelings are established in the game as Evil/enemies, and the character is played good as a saint. When revealed, do the other players/characters still trust it, or assume it's a spy?

Darth Ultron
2018-01-21, 02:17 PM
I've experienced players like this many times even with benign intentions as the OP. I think the payoff is to get the emotional satisfaction of the reveal that you fooled everyone. Afterwards it's to feel good on the memory. It's a sense of accomplishment.

So it's a good thing to be a jerk?


So you never encountered a good twist/surprise reveal in a story before? Because this is exactly that, only in the medium not of books, movies or video games, but roleplaying.

Trust me, if executed well the payoff is far more than just other players being surprised for a few seconds.

A twist or surprise in a Story is great, but that is not what we are talking about.

We are talking about one player tiring to get a rise and ''awesome'' feeling of screwing someone over for their own selfish reasons.

Pex
2018-01-21, 03:09 PM
So it's a good thing to be a jerk?



You should know me better than that! I'm just saying what the payoff is, not that I agree with it.

Zombimode
2018-01-22, 05:02 AM
We do not present the build Details of our characters openly. That is we don't shove them into each others faces.
What is on somebodies character sheet is only of the Player's (and GM's) concern. The Information about the outher characters is mostly relayed through the Interface of the in-game interaction.

We are not super-secretive about things but this Environment allows stuff like shape-shifters and other different-under-the-skin type character to evolve naturaly. For instance in our Eberron campaign we Players were always joke about that while our whole Group pretends and appears to be human, no one actually IS human. And the cool thing is that I still don't know if that is true or not.
As a nice side effect we experience the other characters primarily through the in-game actions which helps seeming them as characters and less as build-constructs. We usually obfuscate our abilities in that we describe the precievable effects and Detail the game effects, but we usually do not "shout" the name of the feat, class Feature or what have you. If we do, we try to find an Expression in our language (german) instead of using the original english name.

This also mirrors nicely the process of getting to know the people you work/spend time with. In the beginning you only know what is immediately visible. Then over time you increase your Knowledge on the Basis of what the other characters say, how they act and what abilities they Display. But you can never be sure that you know all there is to know about.

I really like this Setup :smallsmile:

Lord Torath
2018-01-22, 10:20 AM
I think this is the best advice I've seen so far:
If this reveal IS so important to you, I suggest telling the players before hand "look guys. My character may have a surprise, which I'd like to keep secret so far, for roleplay reasons only, nothing that's gonna endanger or mess the party. I think it would be cool to play it, and ask you to trust me. Ok?"

Also, keep this in mind as well.
I'll also add that you don't want your secret with the GM to end up causing you two to pass notes and go talk in the other room and such so often that it slows the game down.

Zejety
2018-01-22, 10:35 AM
I agree that there's nothing wrong with it.
But I'd suggest weighing the benefits of keeping it a secret from the others players versus telling the players (but not necessarily their characters).

The benefit of keeping it secret is a single dramatic reveal (that may never come in a satisfactory way), while informing the players lets them enjoy the full picture of the story you are telling at least, and gives you allies in building a compelling narrative around the situation at best.

The AngryGM wrote an article about this issue and while I don't see the situation quite as drastically as he does, and his writing style isn't for everyone, I'd recommend giving it at least a skim before making your decision: http://www.madadventurers.com/angry-rants-secrets-part-2/

AshfireMage
2018-01-22, 12:39 PM
Speaking as someone who was a player in a game where another player did literally this exact thing (down to masquerading as a half-elf rouge), nobody at our table had any problem with it whatsoever. It was kind of a fun reveal a dramatically appropriate moment.

Although to be fair, pretty much everybody knew about it or had guessed already, because the player doing the withholding sucked at keeping secrets, lol.

Pex
2018-01-22, 12:41 PM
The AngryGM wrote an article about this issue and while I don't see the situation quite as drastically as he does, and his writing style isn't for everyone, I'd recommend giving it at least a skim before making your decision: http://www.madadventurers.com/angry-rants-secrets-part-2/

Exactly!

Too many games I played got ruined because of this.

Honest Tiefling
2018-01-22, 12:52 PM
There's nothing wrong with withholding this kind of information from the other players, so long as you aren't planning to screw them over with it later.

(Unless it's explicitly the kind of campaign with player buy-in for intraparty betrayal, then anything goes.)

Max_Killjoy is my spirit animal, because I agree with this entirely. I mean, the freaking setting (assuming Eberron) doesn't just encourage this behavior, but nearly outright demands it AFAIK. But I really doubt anyone would be upset. Personally, I'd prefer the IC reveal so that the character's reaction would mimic my own.

If you want to make extra sure, I'd tell the DM. They probably know most of the players and can tell you if anyone is going to be upset. They could also warn the table that changelings, you know, exist and all and leave it quite vague if they think that might help.

And as long as we are linking various things, here is a humorous take on the subject. (http://www.handbookofheroes.com/archives/comic/easy_on_the_eyes)

Geddy2112
2018-01-22, 01:25 PM
Second not being a jerk about anything you keep secret,if you keep secrets at all. I would also tell the players if asked, but not nessicarily volunteer the information. In character, simply describe your character without using any racial words and you should be okay. If asked "what race" just answer the player but not the character. Say "changeling but appears as a half elf" but in character you can just say elf.

This also applies for shapeshifters, or anything that can pass as human(tiefling, aasimar, etc).

It is not a gamebreaking secret, but having the DM think you are an elf or something could subconsciously meta game(won't use sleep spells on you) or unfairly give you a bonus or something thinking you are an elf.

Max_Killjoy
2018-01-22, 01:25 PM
I agree that there's nothing wrong with it.
But I'd suggest weighing the benefits of keeping it a secret from the others players versus telling the players (but not necessarily their characters).

The benefit of keeping it secret is a single dramatic reveal (that may never come in a satisfactory way), while informing the players lets them enjoy the full picture of the story you are telling at least, and gives you allies in building a compelling narrative around the situation at best.

The AngryGM wrote an article about this issue and while I don't see the situation quite as drastically as he does, and his writing style isn't for everyone, I'd recommend giving it at least a skim before making your decision: http://www.madadventurers.com/angry-rants-secrets-part-2/

Looking at Part 1 of that article... AngryGM of course starts off with presenting the most jerkish and damaging examples, and fixating on how terrible those examples are for a campaign, as if they represent the entirety of possible secrets and all secrets are that jerkish and damaging.

I'll withhold judgement until I've had a chance to read both parts fully.


But I think part of this is unspoken assumptions about what kind of game or campaign is being played. AngryGM starts out like he's assuming a fully cooperative PCs vs antagonists campaign... but in some games or campaigns, an inability to have secrets would destroy the intrigue and uncertainty that are inherent to those games.

Kol Korran
2018-01-22, 02:41 PM
Looking at the various responses to the thread, I guess the real answer is... "depends on your group". There are many types of players, groups and party dynamics, as can be seen by the varied responses.

So... How do you think YOUR group will respond to this? If you know them, have established trust, or the grouo accepted possible friction/ conflict/ mystery about characters and between characters, this may be cool and fun. If not? I'd err on the side of asking first, even a bot vaguely, as I suggested (Or other posters did).

Just to note: My Shadowrun mage, a trickster specializing in deceptions, deceits and illusions was pretty much acting as a changeling. The party was fine with him, but the group trust has been established. I wouldn't try thia with a group I didn't know...

Max_Killjoy
2018-01-22, 02:54 PM
Something AngryGM does bring up is the rotten assumption some players (and would-be writers) have that every secret must be a Dark Secret (tm).

Sometimes the PC's secret might be that they have a family, or that they give a slice of every treasure haul to an orphanage back home, or carry an unrequited torch for one of their NPCs, or... anything generally positive but potentially complicating.


But then, when he says this next bit, he's dead wrong, and I think his mistaken presumption is part of the problem.



We only keep secrets because we’re afraid of what will happen when the information gets out.


Some people are just private by nature, or figure that some things are no one else's damn business and certainly not the business of strangers or new acquaintances.


There's also his incorrect assumption that every secret MUST come out, when in fact it might never come out and only serve to inform the character's beliefs, reactions, and thoughts. Not sure where it got started, but I'm getting really tired of this crap that only things that completely come out actually count, and that anything that doesn't hit the table in full is "softcore Cinemax" or "playing with your doll" or some other disparaging, disdainful thing. Even in writing fiction, it sometimes helps to know things about the character that have not been and may never be revealed on the page -- just as in worldbuilding, you might only show 10% of what you know, but it's that other 90% that hold the visible part of the iceberg up.

FreddyNoNose
2018-01-22, 05:21 PM
Question: If you are devote cleric of a specific god, are you loyal to that god or the party?

Pex
2018-01-22, 06:50 PM
Something AngryGM does bring up is the rotten assumption some players (and would-be writers) have that every secret must be a Dark Secret (tm).

Sometimes the PC's secret might be that they have a family, or that they give a slice of every treasure haul to an orphanage back home, or carry an unrequited torch for one of their NPCs, or... anything generally positive but potentially complicating.


But then, when he says this next bit, he's dead wrong, and I think his mistaken presumption is part of the problem.



Some people are just private by nature, or figure that some things are no one else's damn business and certainly not the business of strangers or new acquaintances.


There's also his incorrect assumption that every secret MUST come out, when in fact it might never come out and only serve to inform the character's beliefs, reactions, and thoughts. Not sure where it got started, but I'm getting really tired of this crap that only things that completely come out actually count, and that anything that doesn't hit the table in full is "softcore Cinemax" or "playing with your doll" or some other disparaging, disdainful thing. Even in writing fiction, it sometimes helps to know things about the character that have not been and may never be revealed on the page -- just as in worldbuilding, you might only show 10% of what you know, but it's that other 90% that hold the visible part of the iceberg up.

There's no point to the secret if remains in your head. What you have instead is a roleplaying motive. It helps drive your character's personality, but that's no different than anyone else. You are just choosing to label it with the word "secret". Everyone has private things and thoughts they'd never want their friends to know. That's real life. For the purpose of the game it's fine for character background, but there's no point to it if it doesn't do anything.


Question: If you are devote cleric of a specific god, are you loyal to that god or the party?

Both. If you think there's conflict choose to think differently. You control your character. Your character does not control you. If you cannot reconcile talk to your DM to find a solution. Another player may himself have to choose to think differently to stop causing problems. It's not a blanket solution. Context of what's happening matters.

Max_Killjoy
2018-01-22, 07:26 PM
There's no point to the secret if remains in your head. What you have instead is a roleplaying motive. It helps drive your character's personality, but that's no different than anyone else. You are just choosing to label it with the word "secret". Everyone has private things and thoughts they'd never want their friends to know. That's real life. For the purpose of the game it's fine for character background, but there's no point to it if it doesn't do anything.


I'm pretty sure a secret doesn't have to be revealed to be called a secret.

Quertus
2018-01-22, 07:30 PM
This also mirrors nicely the process of getting to know the people you work/spend time with.

I really like this Setup :smallsmile:

This. It's why, as player or GM, I aim for this style of play, even when there are no secrets.


The benefit of keeping it secret is a single dramatic reveal (that may never come in a satisfactory way), while informing the players lets them enjoy the full picture of the story you are telling at least, and gives you allies in building a compelling narrative around the situation at best.

Even when there are no "secrets", the difference, to me, is one of the flavor of the dish.

You're absolutely right, though, that there are advantages to having a culture of public information, that needs to be weighed against the value of private information. In addition to what you've called out, public information gives you positive metagaming; private information gives you "realism" / that v word.

FreddyNoNose
2018-01-22, 09:13 PM
Both. If you think there's conflict choose to think differently. You control your character. Your character does not control you. If you cannot reconcile talk to your DM to find a solution. Another player may himself have to choose to think differently to stop causing problems. It's not a blanket solution. Context of what's happening matters.
But if the church said here is a mission, you can bring your friends to help, but you can't tell them about "secret" how do you deal with it. Perhaps this is a difference between 70s gaming and today but adding in little conflicts is a type of challenge. But I get if modern players want everything safe unless they agree to having it be different as part of their negotiated story.

Alcore
2018-01-22, 09:44 PM
Something AngryGM does bring up is the rotten assumption blah blah blah *bash angry guy*

I whole heartedly agree. You should read what he has to say about training new players. He is a confrontational, us vs them GM who considers TPK a perfectly encouraged outcome (rather than a Opps moment). I take everything he says with a whole salt shaker but i still listen; he has provided valuable insight into players (and GMs) like himself.

Not his intent I'm sure.


--------------------------------

To continue on secrets....


It is definitely a matter of taste and secrets don't have to be used or even that dark. That said if backstory is out in the open i don't have anything to hide from the players. Some respect this and others just won't no matter what.



I onced played a changeling (PF = Hag spawn) and only described her. She had a staff, robes, familiar but also didn't quite look right; despite the players knowing she was a changeling the party (characters) took her for a wizard who occasionally could heal via hex.

She wasn't trying to keep it hidden but it just wasn't mentioned. Eventually it 'came out' and she performed matricide. Role Play was enriched by it. Of course no one could see each other's sheets; it was mythweavers and all character threads were private. It was awesome!


And on the other hand....


I once had an Aasimar who had all the proper racial traits to hide her heritage without rolling. Why? Because she was disgusted with the alien blood in her vains and how her parents, teachers and old friends kept pushing her to be the angel she wasn't. It was an important part of her character. Of course she was properly documented on the sheet so every player knew and so did every character.

They cried fowl if i didn't use my racial abilities and wouldn't listen to my cries of metagaming. The game started with them meeting in a bar and from then on each character was a student of each other's backstory. The mentality is sickening on a personal level; who shares their deepest most forbidden secrets with people you just met? I never read a backstory unless given permission! It's the way things are suppose to be (regarding me at least)

The big reveal never came. A whole section of RP tarnished from day one by players wanting to win, to be optimized. I think the GM wanted it to stay buried as badly as i did after awhile. It felt like poison; and it wasn't even a secret.

Max_Killjoy
2018-01-22, 09:52 PM
To continue on secrets....


It is definitely a matter of taste and secrets don't have to be used or even that dark. That said if backstory is out in the open i don't have anything to hide from the players. Some respect this and others just won't no matter what.



I onced played a changeling (PF = Hag spawn) and only described her. She had a staff, robes, familiar but also didn't quite look right; despite the players knowing she was a changeling the party (characters) took her for a wizard who occasionally could heal via hex.

She wasn't trying to keep it hidden but it just wasn't mentioned. Eventually it 'came out' and she performed matricide. Role Play was enriched by it. Of course no one could see each other's sheets; it was mythweavers and all character threads were private. It was awesome!


And on the other hand....


I once had an Aasimar who had all the proper racial traits to hide her heritage without rolling. Why? Because she was disgusted with the alien blood in her vains and how her parents, teachers and old friends kept pushing her to be the angel she wasn't. It was an important part of her character. Of course she was properly documented on the sheet so every player knew and so did every character.

They cried fowl if i didn't use my racial abilities and wouldn't listen to my cries of metagaming. The game started with them meeting in a bar and from then on each character was a student of each other's backstory. The mentality is sickening on a personal level; who shares their deepest most forbidden secrets with people you just met? I never read a backstory unless given permission! It's the way things are suppose to be (regarding me at least)

The big reveal never came. A whole section of RP tarnished from day one by players wanting to win, to be optimized. I think the GM wanted it to stay buried as badly as i did after awhile. It felt like poison; and it wasn't even a secret.


Just goes to show that secrets can be constructive, and information known to all the other players can be ruinous.

Also, sounds like a good post for this thread as well: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?548392-Perception-Disparity

Jay R
2018-01-22, 10:21 PM
It can work well, if the goal is a fun, memorable moment, and if no other player ever believes that he's lost opportunities or fun because of it. Here are two examples I've played.

1. In a game set in the America west, I told the group that I was planning to pattern my western hero after a TV show. So I showed up with Cali Yang, a Chinese martial artist obviously based on Kwai-Chang Cain in Kung Fu. But he wasn't. In the fourth session, he needed to take off his disguise, and revealed that he was really Cal Young, a disguise-artist federal agent based on Artemus Gordon of The Wild, Wild West.

2. In a game of Champions, Hyperion, my superhero patterned more-or-less on Superman, had been killed, and I was now playing a Plastic Man / Bouncing Boy character named Pinball. Only the GM and I knew that Hyperion hadn't in fact died, and would return at a sufficiently dramatic moment. When we were losing a battle against a giant robot, the GM announced that we heard something flying fast through the air. I looked at him, he nodded, and so I said, "Pinball turns, looks up, and calls out, 'Look! Up in the sky!'" Every player laughed, and two of them continued the quote with, "It's a bird! It's a plane! No, it's Hyperion!"

In both cases, the revealing moment was fun, and the other players all enjoyed it.

But be sure that you never lie to the other players. Don't say, "I'm playing a half-elf rogue." That's a statement from you, and it's false. Instead, say, "I'm a half-elf rogue." The character is the liar, not you. Better yet, "My character stands before you, with long hair, pointed ears - obviously a half-elf. He's wearing a short sword and leather armor, moves very quietly, and says very little about his background. When strangers come by, you see his eyes notice every item of jewelry they are wearing." This is all true.

But, and I can't stress this enough, the revelation should make clear that the disguise wasn't a trick you played on the other players, but a valid action for the character to have taken. The disguise artist came to examine a dangerous situation in disguise. Hyperion could not return until he did.

Knaight
2018-01-22, 10:52 PM
I've experienced players like this many times even with benign intentions as the OP. I think the payoff is to get the emotional satisfaction of the reveal that you fooled everyone. Afterwards it's to feel good on the memory. It's a sense of accomplishment.
The payoff is often similar to most other character secrets - they're there to be revealed, and for the revelation of said secrets to provide fun character moments. Fooling people is largely besides the point.


It can work well, if the goal is a fun, memorable moment, and if no other player ever believes that he's lost opportunities or fun because of it. Here are two examples I've played.
Exactly. Similarly, I've played a character who was a woman pretending to be a man to access social spheres (going out and adventuring) that would otherwise be accessible. It was only a matter of time until that came up, with the first major injury needing to be treated providing an opportunity for the reveal all around. Several characters had fun, memorable moments there.

RazorChain
2018-01-23, 01:43 AM
@Wasp

I think the information you're witholding is trivial.

But as for secrets in general I'm mostly done with them, especially when they lead to unnecessary notepassing or taking players aside. This of course is not applicable in all games, for example a political game of VtM might be rife with secrets, plots and even backstabbing.

Mostly I don't keep secrets so everybody knows what is happening as it keeps the players interested. In a recent session all the players were almost certain that one PC had been bloodbound by the vampire villain but it wasn't until the shodown that their PC's knew. This lead to a lot of suspense.

Satinavian
2018-01-23, 02:42 AM
It has been decades that i last had some actual problem with such player secret. And there have been many players using them.

Sure, there were some that would make future character cooperation impossible but in those cases the player had planned to retire the character this way so that was not a problem.

Sure, there were secrets that got hintet and never revealed.

Sure, there were secrets that unfortunately no one cared about when they were revealed making the dramatic revealation a tad disappointing.

Sure, there were secrets every player guessed from the get go because the player was not that good at providing plausible alternative explainations.

Sure, there were secrets that made characters really hard to play because most character powers could not be used in the open.

Sure, there were secrets where notes and private talk to the GM took a tad too much time (such stuff is better done between sessions per email).

But real problems for group cohesion ? No. Can't remember one.



As a GM i allow secrets but remind players that "having a secret idendity" means "playing the fake idendity" most of the time and that they should be comfortable doing the latter too.

ross
2018-01-26, 12:08 AM
"Oh, you were a changeling. Huh. Hey, pass the chips, will you?"

The Fury
2018-01-27, 04:46 AM
I've been gearing up to play The Sprawl and I asked the MC specifically about withholding information and keeping secrets from the other players. She told me "that's what The Sprawl is all about!"

So hey, at least the person running the game is cool with it. So my character ends up owning a menacing-looking magnum revolver that secretly has had its firing pin filed down. As secrets go, that's a pretty tame one but it's one I might have liked to have in some of the more dysfunctional groups I've played in. This group seems to have bizarrely good cohesion though, so there's a good chance that this particular secret might never come up.

EldritchWeaver
2018-01-29, 01:26 PM
I do believe it is possible to play a character with a secret, if it isn't meant to harm the other players and their characters. My current avatar is an actual PC - a unicorn who pretends to be an elf, because he believes that other people are potential unicorn poachers. No one likes to be on the menu, so he acquired shapeshifting capabilities. He managed to keep his nature a secret from the other characters until the end of the last session, but I not from the players, because the GM told them for an unrelated reason. And the players didn't care about me playing a unicorn. It would have been a more dramatic reveal, as my unicorn ended up in his natural form thanks to an antimagic field. Well, let's see how things proceed next session.

Pex
2018-01-29, 09:36 PM
I do believe it is possible to play a character with a secret, if it isn't meant to harm the other players and their characters. My current avatar is an actual PC - a unicorn who pretends to be an elf, because he believes that other people are potential unicorn poachers. No one likes to be on the menu, so he acquired shapeshifting capabilities. He managed to keep his nature a secret from the other characters until the end of the last session, but I not from the players, because the GM told them for an unrelated reason. And the players didn't care about me playing a unicorn. It would have been a more dramatic reveal, as my unicorn ended up in his natural form thanks to an antimagic field. Well, let's see how things proceed next session.

I have to admit, it would be funny to see the enemy surprised your elf managed to polymorph into a unicorn in an anti-magic field from a certain point of view.