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Foeofthelance
2007-08-25, 12:35 PM
Monkey Grip doesn't stack with the Goliath Racial ability, or does it?

EDIT: Actually a few more things to check as well...

Weapons don't add reach, only size does, right? So using a larger weapon won't add reach, but enlarge person will.

I've got a player looking to use the biggest spear possibly for max damage/reach, and I need to know what works and what doesn't.

Fax Celestis
2007-08-25, 12:40 PM
Both make you be treated as one size larger. Monkey Grip takes your Medium size and makes you treated as Large for a specific instance. Powerful Build takes your Medium size and makes you treated as Large for some specific instances.

So, no, they do not stack.

KillianHawkeye
2007-08-25, 03:00 PM
Weapons are listed as either having reach or not having it. The exact amount of reach is not determined by the weapon, but the size of the character the weapon is made for. Thus, a longspear made for an ogre would have a reach of 20'.

Alternatively, you can say that the large longspear adds 10' to the wielder's natural reach (10' for Large, 10' for reach), so in the hands of a Medium creature you could rule that it only provides a 15' reach (and threatens the second and third squares away from the wielder, the adjacent squares usually not being threatened when wielding reach weapons).

For diagrams showing the ranges of reach for various sizes of creatures, take a look at pgs. 308-310 of the DMG.

Fax Celestis
2007-08-25, 03:05 PM
Oh! In that case, the Enlarge Weapon spell on a Monkey Gripped or Powerful Builded Large longspear will make it a Huge longspear. An Enlarged Goliath will be Large and can wield a Huge longspear, or wield a Gargantuan one with the Enlarge Weapon spell.

Enlarge Weapon appears in CScn.

Matthew
2007-08-26, 01:36 PM
Weapons are listed as either having reach or not having it. The exact amount of reach is not determined by the weapon, but the size of the character the weapon is made for. Thus, a longspear made for an ogre would have a reach of 20'.

Alternatively, you can say that the large longspear adds 10' to the wielder's natural reach (10' for Large, 10' for reach), so in the hands of a Medium creature you could rule that it only provides a 15' reach (and threatens the second and third squares away from the wielder, the adjacent squares usually not being threatened when wielding reach weapons).

For diagrams showing the ranges of reach for various sizes of creatures, take a look at pgs. 308-310 of the DMG.

Hmmn. Are you sure about this? It sounds logical, but I am sure I have heard differently [i.e. it's the size of the user that matters].

KillianHawkeye
2007-08-26, 01:44 PM
Hmmn. Are you sure about this? It sounds logical, but I am sure I have heard differently [i.e. it's the size of the user that matters].

Well, that's exactly what I indicated in my first paragraph. This is explicitly true when considering a character wielding a weapon appropriate to his size category. My second paragraph, I admit, is purely conjecture and fiat intended to resolve what would happen if the character was wielding a weapon made for a larger creature. Consider it as a possible house-rule.

Matthew
2007-08-26, 01:48 PM
Not quite, you indicate that it matters what size the weapon was made for, not what size the user is.

Jack Mann
2007-08-26, 02:46 PM
A reach weapon doubles your natural reach. The weapon's size is irrelevant. A troll with a large longspear has a reach of 20'. A centaur with the same longspear has a reach of 10'.

Illogical? Yep. But it's a level of abstraction added to keep players from being able to up their reach too easily.

JackMage666
2007-08-26, 02:58 PM
A reach weapon doubles your natural reach. The weapon's size is irrelevant. A troll with a large longspear has a reach of 20'. A centaur with the same longspear has a reach of 10'.

Illogical? Yep. But it's a level of abstraction added to keep players from being able to up their reach too easily.

Actually, a Centaur's would be the same size (20') as the Trolls, since both Centaurs and Trolls are large size. But, no, since the Centaur is Large (tall), it gets a shorter reach, despite it's large size. Reach kinda sucks for that reason.

I would assume that the weapon would be longer, though, since the weapon wouldn't shrink in the hands of a smaller weilder.

Example - A non-magical large longspear is 10 ft long (give or take 2-4 feet, for grip). In the hands of an ogre, it gives 20 ft reach (weapon length+natural reach for the Ogre.) So, if handed to a goliath, the goliath's reach with the weapon is 15 ft (weapon length+natural length).

I wouldn't make since that the reach weapon was only due to natural reach, and nothing else.

Of course, Powerful Build isn't core, and neither is Monkey Grip, so the designers may have not taken that into account, at all.

EDIT - Sorry Jack Mann, misread your post - Thought you said something about creature size in it. Oh well, still serves as a new example to confuse people!

Matthew
2007-08-26, 03:02 PM
A reach weapon doubles your natural reach. The weapon's size is irrelevant. A troll with a large longspear has a reach of 20'. A centaur with the same longspear has a reach of 10'.

Illogical? Yep. But it's a level of abstraction added to keep players from being able to up their reach too easily.

Yeah, that was my undertstanding of the situation.

Captain van der Decken
2007-08-26, 03:06 PM
So a character with both Unnatural Reach and Deformity (tall) could threaten 40' using a reach weapon? Heh.

JackMage- You mean Centaurs are large (long)?

KillianHawkeye
2007-08-27, 01:18 AM
Not quite, you indicate that it matters what size the weapon was made for, not what size the user is.

Please carefully read this paragraph from my original post, noting the highlighted section:


Weapons are listed as either having reach or not having it. The exact amount of reach is not determined by the weapon, but the size of the character the weapon is made for. Thus, a longspear made for an ogre would have a reach of 20'.

I did indeed indicate that reach is determined by the size of the creature. kthx

Edit: Also note that you take a cumulative –2 penalty on attack rolls for each size category of difference between your size and the size of the weapons intended wielder (if larger than yourself).

Jack Mann
2007-08-27, 01:27 AM
The creature the weapon was made for makes no difference. It's the creature using the weapon that makes the difference. In the troll/centaur example, they could use the exact same spear. By the RAW, the troll would have reach to 20' while the centaur would have reach to 10'. A human could grab the spear from the troll and he would also only be threatening out to 10'. If the troll took the human's medium-sized spear, he'd be able to threaten to 20'. And again, I acknowledge that this is nonsensical. But that's the way the rules work.

Gralamin
2007-08-27, 01:32 AM
Please carefully read this paragraph from my original post, noting the highlighted section:



I did indeed indicate that reach is determined by the size of the creature. kthx

Edit: Also note that you take a cumulative –2 penalty on attack rolls for each size category of difference between your size and the size of the weapons intended wielder (if larger than yourself).

Read it again carefully. Made for indicates that the size of the weapon matters not the character. Remove that And you are right.

BardicDuelist
2007-08-27, 01:37 AM
Saying that a reach weapon only doubles your natural reach doesn't make sense. If a spear was made for a large creature, it would have a longer reach than one made for a medium one.

I do understand that RAW does not make sense somtimes however.

Now, what your player should be doing is seeing what kind of reach he can get with a spiked chain (I am kidding of course).

Jack Mann
2007-08-27, 01:39 AM
That's pretty much the reason, Bardic. It keeps a player from picking up a large reach weapon and going to town with it. The game designers wanted to make reach difficult to attain.

BardicDuelist
2007-08-27, 02:41 AM
At Jack: I know the design reason, but the logic behind it is dumb.

Captain van der Decken
2007-08-27, 03:44 AM
That's pretty much the reason, Bardic. It keeps a player from picking up a large reach weapon and going to town with it. The game designers wanted to make reach difficult to attain.

Of course, they then added reach feats in various splatbooks.

martyboy74
2007-08-27, 07:08 AM
Yeah, getting ridiculous amounts of reach isn't all that hard if you try for it. Especially with Expansion.

Reach: 5'
Deformity (Tall): 10'
Unnatural Reach: 15'
Expansion (2 sizes): 25'
Reach Weapon: 50'.

For the cost of 4 feats and 45,000 gold, you have 10-tupled your reach. Take Improved Trip.

Curmudgeon
2007-08-27, 12:57 PM
Yeah, getting ridiculous amounts of reach isn't all that hard if you try for it. Especially with Expansion.

Reach: 5'
Deformity (Tall): 10'
Unnatural Reach: 15' This feat doesn't exist; you probably mean Inhuman.
Expansion (2 sizes): 25'
Reach Weapon: 50'.

For the cost of 4 feats and 45,000 gold, you have 10-tupled your reach. You're a little confused about how this works.

Deformity (Tall) (Heroes of Horror)
Prerequisite: Evil alignment, Willing Deformity, Medium size.

A character can’t use a feat if he or she has lost a prerequisite.

Inhuman Reach (Lords of Madness)
Prerequisite: Aberration Blood.
Benefit: If you already have a reach of more than 5 feet for some reason, this feat extends your reach by another 5 feet.

The psychic power Expansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm) requires manifester level 7 for a two size category increase. Or you can cast Giant Size to become huge if you have 13+ levels of Wu Jen.

So, with the combination you specified, you'll get the following:

Natural Reach: 5'
Deformity (Tall): 10'
Inhuman Reach: 15'
using Reach Weapon: 30'
Expansion (2 sizes): 20' (15' for huge, +5' for Inhuman Reach; you lose the Deformity (Tall) benefit)
using Reach Weapon: 40', for 7 rounds only

These 4 feats give you a total reach of 15'. When you add Expansion (two sizes) you get a reach of 20' for 7 rounds at the cost of 7 power points. Note that the cost for this necessarily includes 7 manifester levels, because Expansion is personal only. I don't see how 45,000 gp figures in here, but maybe you could clue me in.

If you think acquiring 4 feats and 7 manifester levels to get this reach "isn't all that hard", we're using different dictionaries for our definitions.

KillianHawkeye
2007-08-27, 05:55 PM
Read it again carefully. Made for indicates that the size of the weapon matters not the character. Remove that And you are right.

Aargh, sorry, you are right!